But let's put an end to this nonsense now. The ability that causes the vote loss is mine, but it's my passive, not my actual ability. The above is to prove that this is the case. It's also only supposed to cause 3 vit loss, so I have no idea where Arian lost 2 more vit from.
You are not lynching me, and I do not want to fullclaim, at least not until I look properly at rezombied's posts, now that Cyan has claimed the redirector.
Arianrhod might still be scum, but he's roughly 50% less likely to be so. I still think something outright stinks about Proph, however.
On that note, since it's just above...
@dkingsland
Oh, really? Because I very much distinctly remember having attacked Rhand on day 1 and Proph yesterday at least.
I'd like an explanation from you what about my interactions with Seppel were suspect, please. That seems to be a rather popular refrain at the moment, and I'd like to see what exactly is actually behind that convenient phrase for each person.
...I'm rather sad no one but apparently DCIII even bothered to look at what I had to say about Arian.
I read it, I just don't care what obvscum says about my townread.
That's bovine faeces. If you really thought I was scum attacking a townread, you'd be looking through what I said to show how I had a scum mindset attacking Arian. Not outright ignoring it while claiming to have read it.
Also, when did Arian become a townread for you? Because skimming your posts today, I actually don't see where you ever mentioned Arian as a townread. In fact, I don't even see why you have me as 'obvscum' - certainly you never posted any case at all, and the best I see is you supposedly agreeing with some part of Arian's bad meta case and you saying that if Seppel is scum, you want me and LnGrrrR dead... without a shred of justification for either.
"She flew at them, pointed teeth parted, razor claws flailing. In the hazy darkness, only the sounds of slaughter gave proof of what Yblisa was doing to the Celestials. Finally, the stars above twinkled once more (for of course Yblisa had been feeding on their energy to empower her dark rage, and to grant herself the cover of darkness), and there was no sign of Voes or Yblisa - save the twisted corpses of the Celestials who had tried to claim her."
"How horrible."
...explain to me, Iso, how that lines up with 'unmarked'. Because if I go by the above, it looks more like it lines up with AI's death flavour rather than Sir Chris's. So tell me again how you know that Yblisa targeted Sir Chris?
I understand that reading is hard, but if you look at the OP, it very clearly states: "Sir Chris, Demernae's Passion, found dead but unmarked Night 1."
So...that's how that lines up with unmarked.
....err, no. If Sir Chris was killed by the scum, which is probably the case, all that tells us is that 'dead but unmarked' lines up with the mafia nightkill. So how did you go from there to 'Chris was targeted by Yblisa'?
It can't be the OP flavour either. From the snippet of the OP I provided above, Yblisa killing someone would appear to line up very much more with the flavour for AI's death rather than Sir Chris's. And in any case I seriously doubt the scum would have chosen AI for the kill.
So. Again. How do you know that Sir Chris was targeted by Yblisa?
Because I can ******* read, desCoures. Maybe you've forgotten that Celestial Mafia is the sequel to Seasons Mafia. I certainly haven't.
DRey, Smaruwari, the Living Remembrance, Elemental of Memory, lynched Day 1. AsianInvasion, Vheraphon, Capricious Cloud-Lord, Elemental of the Clouds, found dead but unmarked Night 1.
ced395, Cel-Corak Kivir, the Ice Apparition, Elemental of the Frozen Pool, found torn apart Night 1.
Void (r. ZasZ234), Nyx, She Who Waits In Shadow, Elemental of Night, claimed by the sun Day 2.
vezokpiraka, Gangolore, the Fertile Verdance, Elemental of Wild Growth, lynched Day 2. Yanni, Wepmhia Zavii, the Earth's Bounty, Elemental of the Harvest, found dead but unmarked Night 2.
Niv, Potaraxis, the Frozen Judgment, Elemental of Hail, found torn apart Night 2.
iLord, Jayalun, Prince of the Extremes, Elemental of the Equinox, lynched Day 3. Iso (r. Gigas1), Akaramol, Speaker to the Winds, Elemental of Gales, found dead but unmarked Night 3. Artifice 101 (r. Shinen), Febanatik, the Blazebringer, Elemental of Heat, found dead but unmarked Night 3.
Tezz (r. Dancing Mad (r. Burstinatrix)), Adoreq, the Tree of Seasons, Elemental of Trees, found torn apart Night 3. Wrath_of_DoG, Yblisa, the First, Serial Killer, made her escape Day 4.
infectiousbaloth (r. ganderin_dan(r. pinkfloyd)), Indazeel, the Never-Ending, Elemental of Time, lynched Day 4.
DJ Catchem], Kae Kae Zhun, Regent of Seasons, Elemental of the Solstice, lynched Day 5.
Archmage Eternal, Lheraz Bex, the Watery Manipulator, Elemental of Tides, found torn apart Night 5.
Wessel, Hmokaya, the Golden Blooms, Elemental of Flowers, claimed by the sun Day 6.
Pale Mage (r. dropkickdude), Radamel, Herald of Frost, Elemental of Cold, lynched Day 6.
Xyre/Liquidity Crisis, Chiazon, Who Withdraws the Earth's White Cloak, Elemental of the Thaw, found torn apart Night 6.
Brinatoo, Bessamavotha, the Winged Chorus, Elemental of Birdsong, lynched Day 7.
AlphaInsidious, Melwayeen, the Blue Emptiness, Elemental of the Sky, endgamed.
Yblisa, the First (Serial Killer)
Last Word [active/night/any season/+0]: Target another player. You will whisper your name to that player, killing him or her instantly. This ability cannot be roleblocked and penetrates any protection the target may have.
Beyond Time [passive]: While the Aeon Clock stands at 0, 24, 25, 49, 50, 74, 75, or 99, you are immune to killing abilities.
Does that answer your question, or are you going to waste more of my time? Not to be snippy, I'm just annoyed that I had to dig these posts up because you didn't put it together, yourself.
For the record, the "torn apart" flavor was the mafia Nightkill.
Uh huh. Fair enough. So why didn't you say that in the first place?
I didn't play in Seasons. Heck, I'm fairly certain I was absent from the site around the time Seasons ran. So what doesn't make sense to me is why you couldn't have just stated the above in the first place, instead of doing a verbal run around until this point in time. In fact, it doesn't even make sense for you to have not just given a straight answer even if you had thought I'd been in Seasons.
No, what it feels like instead is that you didn't have a convenient answer on hand. Not until now, at least.
I'm also unconvinced by how belligerent you suddenly seem towards me after barely having had a word to say to me the whole day.
"She flew at them, pointed teeth parted, razor claws flailing. In the hazy darkness, only the sounds of slaughter gave proof of what Yblisa was doing to the Celestials. Finally, the stars above twinkled once more (for of course Yblisa had been feeding on their energy to empower her dark rage, and to grant herself the cover of darkness), and there was no sign of Voes or Yblisa - save the twisted corpses of the Celestials who had tried to claim her."
"How horrible."
...explain to me, Iso, how that lines up with 'unmarked'. Because if I go by the above, it looks more like it lines up with AI's death flavour rather than Sir Chris's. So tell me again how you know that Yblisa targeted Sir Chris?
I understand that reading is hard, but if you look at the OP, it very clearly states: "Sir Chris, Demernae's Passion, found dead but unmarked Night 1."
So...that's how that lines up with unmarked.
....err, no. If Sir Chris was killed by the scum, which is probably the case, all that tells us is that 'dead but unmarked' lines up with the mafia nightkill. So how did you go from there to 'Chris was targeted by Yblisa'?
It can't be the OP flavour either. From the snippet of the OP I provided above, Yblisa killing someone would appear to line up very much more with the flavour for AI's death rather than Sir Chris's. And in any case I seriously doubt the scum would have chosen AI for the kill.
So. Again. How do you know that Sir Chris was targeted by Yblisa?
Arian are you going to respond to dC because I'd like to see that.
Waiting on Iso as well.
I agree that it's hard to unring that "says that I'm town" bell... hard to play trying to ignore something like that, and I don't know that we should because that's coloring my opinion whether I reference it openly or not.
I wasn't planning on it. His last post infuriates me on every level. Considering that I know that I'm town, all of his "I hope you're scum because this is so terrible that you're an awful human being that die in a fire" rhetoric offends me personally. I called it like I see it. He apparently takes an issue with that, and that's fine -- it's out there and other people can judge it now. If I respond to dC's last response, all it'll do is likely incite me to a spittle-wielding frenzy, so I'm just not going to do it. My blood pressure doesn't need it.
dC's still scum. My opinion on that hasn't changed.
...oh, come of it. This is blatantly false and you know it. I never once called you anything even close to an 'awful human being' in that entire post, because that's simply not what I do, at least not without being seriously infuriated. You don't even come close to the level of frustration Azrael caused me in CT3 at this point.
I don't see what in the world in my post could possibly cause 'a spittle-wielding frenzy' (whatever that is), and I'm not going to accept that as a valid reason for you to just handwave away my entire reply to you.
I don't understand the move off of Seppel. Did I miss something in the fallout of his wagon where he townslipped or something? I also don't like or understand why the game has gone so incredibly quiet in the wake of Seppel's wagon. There's barely been any activity at all. I'd say that I would like to lynch someone before the game stalls and we lose momentum, but it seems as though that's already happened.
If we're looking at the Iso/Kami camp, I would prefer to lynch Kami to Iso, because I would both rather shut off scum!Kami's gift-giving, and because I have been townreading Iso. I would still prefer a Seppel/dC lynch to either of them, however.
That last paragraph is horrible. You've been townreading Iso... but would still apparently be fine with possibly lynching Kamikaze, despite just how little sense it would make for a scum Kamikaze to gift Iso with anything in the first place. And if you really didn't trust Kamikaze, it would be as simple as having the town decide who he should target, on pain of lynch - and even if he claims redirection, he still has to own up to his new target, and the scum redirector can't do anything else without exposing him. I.E. one scum power role is shut down and he risks exposing scumbuddies, or else he's giving abilities to town roles.
None of that train of thought re:Kamikaze makes a lick of sense.
while DCIII actually has a good point in what I saw of his post
Case in point. He's acknowledging that DCIII had a "good point" when DCIII was casing him.
Quote from LnG »
Also, you ask me to "cite evidence" that your play has been fake when it's pretty obvious it's a vibe I have been getting, the reasons for which I have brought it up throughout the game.
I want dC to give an opinion on the Seppel wagon, rather than continue to argue with Arianrhod and asking Iso questions.
@Seppel
Can you give flavor for your claim, please?
The above bolded reads like a blatant attempt to stop me from pursuing one (or both) scumbuddies of Proph's. Seriously, did you even read what I said about Arian?
-----------------
I didn't actually see anything terribly off about Seppel myself. If anything, as annoyed as I was by it, him calling me on lurking seemed less likely for him to say as scum, given that as scum he'd happily let town lurk away. But with him asking for replacement at this juncture it's unlikely anyone else will be lynched, so eh.
That being said, I very much want responses from Iso and Arian at least before the day ends.
And where does "Deltrese" show up on the OP?[/quote]
Third - I was vitriolic towards Seppel because I was legitimately pissed off. Duh. I'd love to know how you read 'scum-mindedness' into that. In fact, I want you to detail how in the world that was supposedly the case to you.
This indignant response to Arian about thinking he was distancing from Seppel (I think so too) about how one could read scum-mindedness into that interaction. A very common scum tactic is distancing from a buddy - so it's not like this concept should be foreign to dC here. Often times they play this up. dC isn't just saying to Arian "you're wrong", he's attacking the concept that there could be scum motivation behind his being pissed at Seppel, which I find very hard to buy that he legitimately thinks.
Point of order. What I was doing here was wanting Arianrhod to quantify exactly how that interaction was 'scum-minded' to him, rather than just slapping that label on like he did - therefore that last line. I don't see how I was 'attacking' the concept you mention above - rather, I questioned Arian attempting to paint as 'scum-minded' something that should have been a null tell
..also, please clarify something. Do you actually think that I wasn't legitimately annoyed at Seppel?
This is completely obvious. I thought KJ was scum - therefore rezombied coming in and saying 'oh ***** don't hammer' looked utterly horrible. Now in the context that KJ was town, it makes absolutely no sense for a scum rezombied to come in and say that, when he would obviously know KJ was town. The above quote even details this same reasoning.
This 'point' doesn't even stand up to the most casual scrutiny.
dC has a reputation for being a very strong analyst and I believe that - I thought that his break down of why Azrael was scum in CT3 was very strong and he asked me some questions that I wanted no part of trying to think of answers to at the end of that game. The above is bad analysis. This is to his defense to Arian for saying he did a 180 on Rez. His point being that he thought KJ was scum so he thought it was bad that Rezombied came in and said don't hammer. The wagon was at L-1 with 10 people on KJ and KJ's lynch looked inevitable so, to dC, it looked bad that Rez would come in and say not to hammer because he thought KJ was scum? How many scum are going to swoop in from lurking and ask no one to hammer their buddy at L-1 when their flip looks inevitable? Conversely, there is a lot of motivation for scum to say not to hammer someone they know is town because, when they're lynched, they look townie for saying so - and Rez never posted after. If anything, all of that makes him look worse (this is something I've been mulling about rez, but his push on Meg and the way he's doing it make me think he's more likely town). The point being, dC is looking at that situation completely backward, IMO, and then using it as a defense to Arian.
As I mentioned previously to Arian, I'll concede the point on rezombied, for the reason that somehow I failed to consider when I made that post that even if he'd derailed the KJ wagon with that post, the lynch would probably have defaulted to AI, which meant that a theoretical scum rezombied would have had little to lose in any case. So fair enough.
Easy enough to make that statement, huh? How are these supposed to be 'staged and insecure', hm? And I find it very interesting that basically your only statement on me vs. DCIII is to plaster an 'OMGUS' label on it... as though I hadn't already stated I found something off about DCIII on day 1.
I'm still wary of DCIII. His #694 instantly reminded me of his endgame case in the just-concluded CT3, which is why I asked if that kind of case was usual for him. (Interestingly, as far as I saw while skimming, Prophylaxis was the only person who responded to that question.) Then there's his long emotional spiel in #945, which, as I understand it, is rather out of character for him - and he just finished the aforementioned CT3, where blatant emotional fakery basically won the scum team the game. And then there's how in that same post, he says he's 'feeling better about AI due to interactions with Iso'... but in his latest post he appears to be right back on AI as scum, despite having not mentioned him again in between. And his scumreads in that post are the erratic brothers and the two leading wagons.
...actually, come to think of it, my DCIII read might be why I'm having issue with both the AI and Killjoy wagons. Especially the latter, which seems very much lurker hunting to me, in which case rezombied is probably worse.
Meh.
Vote: DCIII, pending a proper catchup on Monday/Tuesday. (Can someone also point me to a couple of DCIII's other games?)
So, a few things about this - one, this is the last time that he mentioned me at all until I had him as likely scum in my t/s list Today. He left his vote on me while the AI and Killjoy wagons were happening but didn't engage me again or try to convince anyone that I was scum.
Point of order - I had a sum total of three posts on day 1 after this one that you quote - and those posts came with large amounts of time in between. The KJ and AI wagons were more pertinent to discuss, and while I'm not at all proud of it, I'd completely lost track of the game around this time. Quite simply, I'd largely forgotten about you at that point, since whenever I scanned recent posts nothing in your posts particularly caught my notice. It wasn't until I looked over the game again at night that I remembered having an issue with you.
I probably should have unvoted at some point, but eh.
dC, you say that Proph was the only one who responded to you about my play style but what did Proph respond (he said it was my play style and gave Deus Ex for you to reference)? So who is cherry picking again?
I don't understand this question, actually. I'll admit to the failure to check meta - I'll get to that in a bit - but how in the world is it 'cherry picking' when I see a possible connection between you (who I was suspicious of) and Proph, who was the only person of all the people you'd played with that didn't outright ignore me when I asked that question?
I referred you to my sig to check out said games - but you never came back with a conclusion or did anything with it. If a big part of you initial concern about me was meta in CT3, and the one person who answered you said it was my town meta, and I have plenty of games for you to check... what did you find? If you're going to bring up to Arian that you had concerns with me Day 1 as the reason why you weren't OMGUSing me - why didn't you mention my name again the rest of that Day after the above post and why didn't you circle back on my meta? Either you weren't really interested in checking or you didn't like what you found. Either way, you're defending yourself to Arian by saying that you had a scum read on me Day 1, which was pending a proper catch up and reading my other games - and then you never touched the topic of me again.
As far as not checking meta goes, I simply don't have an excuse. I quite forgot I even mentioned that, in fact.
Let me note in the first place that asking for meta was already atypical for me. I don't usually spend time checking for meta, because I find that it's often not all that reliable, and frankly I just don't have the time to look through whole games these days. Thus, I usually only use meta from games I actually played in. But in this case the only game I've ever played with you was CT3, where you were a last day replacement, which despite the similarity I saw didn't really give me that much to work with. And it didn't help that I'll admit that I'm not exactly unbiased when it comes to anything to do with CT3, given how painful a game it was for me. Therefore the above quoted atypical request - which I quite forgot about later and thus never followed up on.
Then we come to day 2, where you began the day with what looked like a totally ridiculous case on me based on me being 'apologetic'. Which instantly made me suspicious of you all over again, because that was, as I said to Arian, totally false meta, and looked like nothing more than krap logick.
Also, where did I use emotional fakery in CT3 or are you referring to other players and, if you are, what does that have to do with me? I'm thinking that a lot of that "he burned me in the other game" was a crutch to foist suspicion in this one based on your lack of follow through.
...huh? I never said you used emotional fakery in that game. But it was in fact a very large reason the mafia managed a perfect win in that game, and it's not unusual at all for players to try a winning tactic in another game.
Then the "feeling better about AI" point without mentioning him between the posts - I responded to that and you didn't challenge me or push back on it at all:
@dC - all of my other games are in my sig with links. I also explained the reasons behind my recent changes of opinion on AI. I thought he seemed genuinely skeptical of Iso and was pushing back, but then he looked worse again when he said he wanted to ignore him (because if he was really skeptical of Iso then I doubt he'd want to be left alone) and Rhand's point about his comment on remembering that Killjoy was scum I thought was good. Most recently, I disagree with Wildfire as I'm not sold on his recent defeatism, as I doubt he thinks it's likely that anyone other than KJ is the lynch today.
So if I'm to believe your response to Arian that you weren't OMGUSing me because you had a scum read on me Day 1 - where's your response to the above, your following through with checking out my previous games, or any interaction with me for the rest of the Day?
...huh? I don't follow. I said that to Arian because he was apparently attempting to rubbish my response to you by calling it 'OMGUS', which seemed quite disingenuous in the context that I had, in fact, previously expressed suspicion of you - so from his perspective, it shouldn't have looked at all like me throwing suspicion back at you out of nowhere, which is what OMGUS basically is. That OMGUS accusation looked even more ridiculous when you take into account later, where he's apparently convinced both you and I are scum.
As for the rest of that - see above. It's a poor excuse, yes, but it's the truth.
...I could have sworn I quoted you, but somehow I can't find it now... in any case. The line I quoted proves that, contrary to what you appear to be trying to imply with your selective quoting, I was in fact trying to, and did, provide at least some level of content despite my real-life schedule and issues with CT3.
No, the line you quoted shows that you mentioned CT3 in one of your reasons for why you weren't available. My response to you was that CT3 wasn't in it's dire throws for all of D1 yesterday - and you're saying I was being selective about my quoting when really my whole point about that was that you started off almost all of your posts by being apologetic. Adding that quote into the rest of those I made didn't change anything. Also, my point wasn't ever that your post count was low in and of itself - it was how apologetic you were at the beginning of almost all of your posts, which made me think that you were self-conscious about it.
As one of the reasons. The series of project deadlines I had to deal with followed by me falling ill (probably from all those project deadlines) was also a heavy reason, and one which I also mention.
Fair enough on the latter point, although I should hope it's clear by now that's not the case. But given the way you clipped headers from posts that were often quite a bit larger than said headers, it sure as heck looked like that's what you were trying to imply.
And speaking of CT3, of course the majority of my posts didn't start like that - I was able to stick to my regular posting schedule for most of CT3. And of course I had more of a 'sense of purpose' there - because Azrael was obvscum since day 1 who kept throwing horrible points at me while calling me scum, and somehow despite that half the game decided to collectively swallow everything he said.
All of which you should be aware of, making you throwing that point at me nothing short of disingenuous. Furthermore, you're attempting to paint my posts as somehow 'self-conscious', when any amount of research into my previous games should show you I post like that whenever I fail to stick to my regular posting schedule. And I know you do the research.
--------------------------
...that took a while. I'm currently seeing Arian/Proph/DCIII as likely scum, probably in that order - Arian just slid a lot with that horrible case and the sheer number of fallacies he just threw at me, and Prophylaxis being so easily 'convinced' by that poor case makes him look worse as well.
Several things here - one being that all of your top scum reads are people who have expressed suspicion of you Today.
But, in the above you're basically trying to turn it into me being scummy that I'm not in your head. For example, I'm supposed to know your posting schedule and know that you always post like that whenever you miss your posting schedule. Then I'm supposed to know that the reason you had purpose in CT3 was simply because of the way Azrael was playing and that, what, normally you don't? I am only familiar with you through the Cross-Town games and by reputation. Your implication is that in order to find you suspicious for all of the openings to your posts, that I would have had to do a meta dive on you to see if that was normal for you when, in reality, I read Meg's PM post where he said that your posts were bad, isoed you to see for myself, and noticed the trend of almost all of your posts starting off self-consciously, which I thought was suspicious and called out in my T/S list.
You're accusing me of being scum because you think I'd have done a meta dive on you before pointing out that 8 of your 10 posts D1 start self-consciously and thinking you were likely scum for it (which isn't something that needs a meta dive and, if you weren't insecure about it, rather than responding as you did you could have just referred me to those games), but the irony is that if you'd done the meta dive on me that you said you were interested in doing based on my play in CT3, you'd have a much better sense of how I play than you do - and if you really thought I was scum Yesterday and aren't just responding to my pressure Today, then I think you would have had some kind of response, follow up, interaction, etc. with me Yesterday rather than ignoring me entirely after voting me.
dC is scum #2.
First off. Fair enough on you not having a good grasp on my meta. For some reason I'd mentally attributed something someone else (Nacho, I think) said about having heavily meta-ed Azrael to you, which was blatantly wrong. So apologies for that. That being said, your initial case very much was basically just 'self conscious and apologetic', which my immediate response to was that that's blatantly wrong.
As for my top scum reads having been people who expressed suspicion of me today, that was very much because of the way they did it, which admittedly I probably didn't quantify properly. To whit; (1) you started off with what looked like an utterly bogus case based on incorrect meta on me, and I'd just been reminded by my overnight review that I'd had an issue with you based on similarities with CT3. In context, I was mistaken that you should have known better, but at the time that's what it felt like. (2) Arianrhod, on the other hand, pushed a case full of faulty logic in addition to the above stated bogus case based on incorrect meta, and unlike you he very much should know better. And (3) Prophylaxis was engaging in background wagon pushing on me, while basically reposting the same weirdly placed vote analysis from the previous day and going all out to get LnGrrrR lynched.
...which actually reminds me, I should take another look at Cythare as well.
I remember you making, on average, a post a day in Survival Horror. Your tone between this game and Survival Horror is completely off, while we're speaking of such things.
This is utterly false, and amazingly easily verified. There were sections in that game when I posted more frequently, but the vast majority of my posts in that game came 2 or even 3 days apart, which a simple search of my posts in that game shows.
Second - not only does that 'appeal to emotion' point look completely cribbed from DCIII, it's also a complete misrepresentation. Like I reply to DCIII below, I post like that all the time whenever I miss my posting schedule. It's the only polite thing to do in a team game that requires a time commitment, and it's something that can be easily verified just by checking any of my past games. So trying to paint the use of the word 'apologies' as some kind of appeal to emotion to achieve... what exactly again?... is misinformed at best, and yes, outright malicious at worst.
If I'm going to do a comprehensive case, I need to address the 'appeal to emotion point' regardless of its original source. Accuse me of "cribbing" all you want, but it's a point that needs to be brought up. The fact that I'm not the person who originally made it shouldn't even enter into the equation.
Uh huh. Way to not at all address the actual point, and instead choose the sidetrack to use as a strawman. No dice. You constructed or outright borrowed points based on false meta and attempted to use them against me - meta that you should know is inaccurate at best. Blatantly ignoring said point doesn't make it go away.
Third - I was vitriolic towards Seppel because I was legitimately pissed off. Duh. I'd love to know how you read 'scum-mindedness' into that. In fact, I want you to detail how in the world that was supposedly the case to you.
I read scum-mindedness into it because I haven't seen you express that degree of emotion in a mafia game before. You've always been very even-keeled, even when being wagoned. This is in stark contrast to here, where you and Seppel have been damn near coming to blows. From my admittedly outsider perspective, that reads like you have yourself under a lot of pressure and you're disappointed in yourself for not living up to your ideals of yourself. You yourself mentioned in "Second" that mafia is a "team game." Mafia is only a team game if you're scum, however -- if you're your town, it's much more selfish than that. So, what team are you part of that you have a commitment to, exactly?
Ah hah. And here you are outright trying to say that emotion is a scum tell for me. After previously having used language like 'wouldn't go so far as to call it a scum tell' - and, again, after you've very well seen me express that level of emotion and more in previous games with me. Who do you think you're kidding?
And Mafia is a team game regardless of which team you're on, unless you're an independent neutral of some sort. If you're town, and not playing like you're on a team, you're doing it wrong; and that's entirely why I refuse to play in league games, because I think the scoring makes it less about the team and more about yourself. So to my view, that latter point is utter and complete nonsense.
I spoiled all of the relevant quotes for concision, in their entirity so people can read full context if they wish. Note that they go from most recent -> oldest. LIkewise, I'm going to progress from most recent -> oldest in my evaluation.
-) Rezombied opinion:
rezombied seems more likely to be town. He's still done basically nothing of consequence, but his 'oh *****, don't hammer yet, I need to catch up' in response to what he thought was KJ being hammered doesn't make sense from mafia that knew KJ was town at all.
vs
But on this same page rezombied's 'oh ***** please don't hammer' just looks horrible.
Complete 180 on that.
This is completely obvious. I thought KJ was scum - therefore rezombied coming in and saying 'oh ***** don't hammer' looked utterly horrible. Now in the context that KJ was town, it makes absolutely no sense for a scum rezombied to come in and say that, when he would obviously know KJ was town. The above quote even details this same reasoning.
This 'point' doesn't even stand up to the most casual scrutiny.
'case'
'point'
You can cut out the subtle devaluations any time. It doesn't help you look any better -- in fact, it has the opposite effect.
Regarding Rezombied, in what world do you live in where scum!Rez wouldn't say something like "oh ***** don't hammer?" It was obvious to everyone that KJ was going to get lynched if only because everyone was sick of the day continuing endlessly. It would be actually free townpoints for scum!Rez to say something like that.
This I will actually concede, after seeing DCIII's point about it. I failed to consider that even if rezombied ended up stopping KJ's lynch with that post, the lynch would probably have defaulted to AI. So fair enough.
Easy enough to make that statement, huh? How are these supposed to be 'staged and insecure', hm? And I find it very interesting that basically your only statement on me vs. DCIII is to plaster an 'OMGUS' label on it... as though I hadn't already stated I found something off about DCIII on day 1.
Scum never bus, distance, or vote each other :eyeroll:.
This, however...
Again, brushing off the main point - which is that you slap 'staged and insecure' as labels on those posts without quantifying why they're supposed to be so in the slightest - and instead only addressing the other point. And with a ridiculously flippant response that barely addresses said point in the first place.
I'll reiterate my original point here that scum are less likely to replace out [when not under pressure, obviously] than town is, because they feel as if they owe it to their team to stick it out. Scum usually form a tighter bond with each other as a result of the sensation of "it's us vs the world." Unless your name is Iso, in which case it's "it's me vs the world."
dC displays a lot of self-consciousness throughout these sections. He knows that he isn't pulling his weight, but he defends himself -- viciously -- against those who attack him. I don't remember seeing this level of vehemence from dC ever before -- he's usually pretty calm and collected. I don't know that I would go so far as to say that emotion is a scumtell from him, but it's something that I think I should mention in case someone has more experience with dC than I do and can say with greater certainty.
That's a whole lot of fence-straddling language right there, for someone apparently confident enough that I'm scum to be voting me. You 'wouldn't go so far as to say that'... but you 'think you should mention it'. Riiiight. That's classic waving the thread and hoping someone else picks it up.
You 'not seeing this level of vehemence' from me before is also an utter lie, because you were in Ataghan and in Survival Horror, and you should have seen this 'vehemence' and worse from me multiple times over. Especially in Survival Horror, from my ongoing argument with Seppel for basically the whole of day 1. I refuse to believe you could have 'forgotten' that.
All I remember of Seppel in Survival Horror is that I was absolutely, 100% stake my life on it convinced that he was scum....and that I was wrong. My memory of you from Survival Horror was that you were fairly even-tempered and that you made a lot of dreadnought posts with a ton of quotes and questions. I remember that you actually applied yourself and were invested in the game.
More slanderous quotation marks. I can't even remember how long ago Survival Horror was, let alone minutiae from it. I have general impressions, and I go off of those when applying to the current game. Mafia may be the most important thing in your life, but it's not in mine. You can knock off the adhoms at any time.
Ah, so now we're claiming faulty memory. Fine, fair enough... except, you know, where basically 90% of your whole case is meta, and your meta is blatantly inaccurate.
You see, this is the whole problem I have with your case. It's almost completely a meta construct, and yet when I challenge you on the accuracy of your (very blatantly wrong) meta... your first instinct is neither to check said meta or to even halfway consider your stance again - but instead to defensively shore up your meta arguments with 'I don't remember'. 'I don't remember', yet you're pushing a case based entirely on what you remember from previous games. That's utterly laughable, and not a town mindset in the least. You're not trying to figure things out. You're pushing a krap logick case with everything you can throw at me.
Oh, and seriously, you think these are ad hominems? You're cute. Or, you know, plastic. Because I don't see how what I said could possibly have been taken as an 'ad hominem', and I think you're blatantly manufacturing that emotion.
Prophylaxis is continuing his vote analysis today, which I'm never had faith in and additionally been disgusted with since Voxxicus got me mislynched with his vote analysis - but despite town flips from both Killjoy and AI, his conclusions appear to have not changed in the slightest.
I don't doubt the veracity of his historical anecdote about being mislynched because of Voxx's analysis. What I don't like, though, is that he seemingly bases his entire read on Prophylaxis on this one item. I further dislike this overall trend of people coming out against the votecount analysis that Proph has been doing, and it makes question if there's a concerted scum attempt at discrediting it because Proph is on the track of something.
You seem very in love with Prophylaxis for some reason. And more than that, you seem so in love with him that you're rubbishing the actual point I had in there - that despite multiple flips, including Killjoy as town when the day 1 vote count analysis was ostensibly predicated on Killjoy being scum... his actual conclusions today appear to be exactly the same as his conclusions yesterday.
That strawman attempt wasn't very subtle.
I have a town read on Proph -- apparently one of the only people who does. Amusingly enough, Killjoy's alignment doesn't actually alter the votecount analysis much. Per my reads (and Proph's as well, it seems), most of the scum stayed away from that wagon. There's a few question marks and holes, but by and large not much -would- have changed. AI and Sir Chris were basically dead weight.
For someone who hates votecount analysis so much, you certainly seem to put a lot of stock in evaluating gamestate after just the Day 1 lynch for relevant data.
Sir Chris was 'basically dead weight'... and yet I seem to recall you tossing the point that maybe he was killed because he was suspicious of me. Uh huh. And if one of the top wagons for the day and the eventual lynch wagon flipping town doesn't affect the 'votecount analysis' much, when the one making said analysis was apparently sure said lynch was scum on day 1... I say there was something wrong with the vote analysis in the first place.
And that last bit? Completely apples and oranges. Evaluating game state on a new day is one thing, following ridiculous 'rules' like '5-man wagons on town must have scum on them' is utter rubbish. Trying to suggest the two are on the same level is disingenuous, and the way you did it just feels like slime-hurling.
-) Pushes Sir Chris, AI, and Killjoy all on D1 -- all three of which have flipped town.
This one re@Killjoy especially bothers me:
Question 2. Riddle me this. How in the world are you reading a town mindset into Killjoy's claim and the choices he was apparently intending to make? He has a vitality-destroying ability, that lowers a player's lifespan by a not insignificant amount over a few days... and his first thought is not to use this on someone he thinks is scum, but rather supposedly on one of his town reads. Because, apparently, he thinks that having their vitality hidden is enough of a benefit to scum to offset being effectively poisoned. Also note where he never appears to have considered the choice of just not using the ability, which is something I would have considered if I, as town truly thought that my ability would hurt town regardless on who I used it on, which would be the case if I had his role and actually thought hidden vitality was a real benefit to scum. That's why I never used my ability in Mostly Mute Monk, even when I could. This apparently has never crossed his mind.
I can't find the post now, but I am 100% certain that Killjoy specifically mentioned the possibility of not using his ability before dC posted this. dC either missed it or opted to neglect mentioning it.
Also, considering how much Megiddo's Vitality went nuts overnight, it's pretty obvious that 3 vit / night is meaningless to Meg. This reflects poorly on dC, because obviously KillJoy had actually considered the applications of his ability.
This one doesn't have any basis in fact or logic. First - I haven't actually gone back to look, but I'm pretty sure that he never said any such thing. And, in fact, he even said he was planning to use it on a town read.
The latter sentence there is even more laughable, because it's predicated on both mKilljoy somehow knowing exactly what Meg's vitality was going to be like. Killjoy outright said he didn't want to use his ability on his scum read Megiddo because 'he didn't want Meg's vitality to be hidden', so if you want to claim that he factored Megiddo's current vitality into 'the applications of his ability', then you're going to have to argue he somehow knew what Megiddo's vitality fluctuation would be like. And frankly, I don't even get how that's supposed to 'reflect poorly' on me, given that Killjoy outright said he was planning on hitting one of his town reads - not Megiddo - and which would shorten the lifespan of said townread perhaps quite drastically.
I wasn't going to use it on Meg. I'm currently scumreading him, and have been all game. Likely it'll be one of Rhand, DC3, or DK.
Is there a reason you want a townread to lose vitality?
I don't. But it's either that or let a scumread get his abilities hidden.
A third option is I just not use it at all to target anyone, but then I'm useless.
Good thing you prefaced your remark by ramming a fencepole up your ass in case it existed and you just missed it.
I did derp and misremembered that he was planning on targeting Megiddo -- I think that's because Megiddo was asking for KJ to use it on him and I got it mixed up in my head. I will defend my assertion that everyone knew that Meg's vitality gain was going to be like that, though. He started at like 6 vitality compared to everyone elses' 25+, and he specifically asked that nobody bother raising his vitality. Obviously it follows that he can handle that himself. That was public information.
I did in fact miss that, but upon checking, that came after he'd already claimed, said he was intending on using it on a town read instead of one of his scum reads, and was grilled about that by multiple people. So frankly even if I had seen that, it wouldn't have changed a thing - if he'd said that it one of his first few posts on the subject, fair enough, but by this point there's no way that could have been taken as evidence that he'd been considering it from the beginning.
And come off it. Without private information, there's no way anyone could have guessed that Megiddo's vitality was going to do that. He could have had anything - like a passive that prevented vitality loss from planes or whatever. Any number of possibilities existed, and trying to claim that 'it should have been obvious' is a blatant falsehood.
Oh, and you could be bothered to go and find this quote, I note.
It's ironic that someone at some point said he thought there was a concerted effort to get AI through the day, because right now I'm feeling there's a distinct effort to get Killjoy through the day. One that's reminding me a lot of Cyberspace Mafia, and how three out of RobRoy's four teammates apparently felt his extra kill (which he also tried to spin as a town ability and wanted to be left alive one night to use and 'prove himself') was worth falling all over themselves to attempt to keep him from being lynched. Of these, Rhand looks particularly bad, but I don't like the way Sir Chris and HookerPunch are responding either.
Except, you know, KillJoy and AI both flipped town.
And?
It was a nice fearmonger.
Uh huh. So everyone who said something about KJ v. AI on day 1 was 'fearmongering'? That's blatant rubbish. More slime-hurling.
I'm rather torn on AI. The most recent game I remember playing with him as scum was Survival Horror, and I thought I remembered him being dismissive and stonewalling there, but when I looked back at that game it was actually mostly the opposite. It doesn't change the fact that his play this game has been less than convincing, though. Eh.
I distinctly recall later posting that I was against the AI wagon. Cherry pick much?
Find it and quote it, don't just say that you think it exists.
...but you couldn't be bothered to go and find this one.
Again, I reiterate - you're not attempting to actually figure things out. You're just throwing whatever you can at me to try and paint me as scum.
I'm still wary of DCIII. His #694 instantly reminded me of his endgame case in the just-concluded CT3, which is why I asked if that kind of case was usual for him. (Interestingly, as far as I saw while skimming, Prophylaxis was the only person who responded to that question.) Then there's his long emotional spiel in #945, which, as I understand it, is rather out of character for him - and he just finished the aforementioned CT3, where blatant emotional fakery basically won the scum team the game. And then there's how in that same post, he says he's 'feeling better about AI due to interactions with Iso'... but in his latest post he appears to be right back on AI as scum, despite having not mentioned him again in between. And his scumreads in that post are the erratic brothers and the two leading wagons.
...so wait. Let me get this straight. Earlier you accuse me of OMGUS against DCIII... but here you seem to be suggesting DCIII is my scummate? What?
I say again: because scum never vote/distance/etc each other. Why is OMGUS necessarily just a townie reaction? I know that when I'm scum-aligned, I often have an omgus reaction to my teammates because I don't enjoy getting bussed. It's that whole pesky team mentality thing again. In my head, I don't feel like my teammates should be bussing me because, goddamnit, we're supposed to be a team. Us vs the world. Etc. I was unspeakably furious with Rhand when he bussed me unnecessarily in Winterfell. I understood why he did it later when I calmed down (although to this day I disagree with his call), but that didn't change the knee-jerk emotive response I had.
...I don't even know where to begin to respond to how blatantly wrong this is. Bussing happens, yes. But if you're suggesting I, as scum, called out scum!DCIII (totally not under scrutiny) on day 1, out of nowhere, quoting a just-finished game... I think you either need to get your head examined, or just plain swing.
Oh, and incidentally? That's a 'historical anecdote that doesn't necessarily apply to this game'. Nice to know you agree you're scummy.
1) Seppel interaction reeks of annoyed teammate.
2) Wrong about everyone who flipped N1: unlikely for someone of dC's skill. (aka: the not-an-idiot argument)
3) Uses historical anecdotes which don't necessarily apply to this game to attempt to guide opinions.
Bonus 4) Prophylaxis, can you check on this? I'm out of time to look back now, but I -think- that dC never actually voted for Chris, AI, or KillJoy despite having commented several times that he didn't like X / that Y was scummy etc. He voted DCIII twice, I believe, but never any of the three corpses. Can you confirm this since you have all the information handy courtesy of your vote analysis anyway?
Other than mostly being complete meta, let me illustrate just how poor all these points are:
1. No, it's just plain annoyed.
2. I'm distinctly sure I was right about AI. But other than how absolutely ridiculous the 'not-an-idiot' argument is... you were in Ataghan Mafia, as scum. Where I was town, and so utterly wrong about just about everything day 1 that I remember being outright surprised you lot killed me night 1 upon seeing the alignment spread in the spectator chat. You know very well that I can and have been just about totally wrong. I'm having a very hard time seeing how you can possibly have made this argument in any kind of honest fashion.
3. Uh huh. Obviously I thought they did apply, if I brought them up. Just like I thought, rightly, that they applied when I brought up the past in CT3. And you're being very oddly selective about this, given that Prophylaxis (who, again, you seem absolutely in love with) literally just did the exact same thing in his case against LnGrrrR. To, obviously, no complaint whatsoever from you.
1. So you say. I see it differently.
2. I hold you in high regard as a player, and the more experienced the player, the more unlikely it is for me to excuse being wrong about everything. I've been fooled by Iso too many times. Hell, you were voted to represent Salvation in the Crosstown games. I'm supposed to just turn a blind eye to that? If Seppel makes it to midgame after having been wrong about every single read he's put forth in the thread, am I supposed to think that he's just having a bad game, or that he's scum?
3. I have nothing to say about this. It may be bias from my reads. At best, it's very manipulating, conniving, and conversation-guiding. I don't remember Proph employing this, but I probably missed it -- I don't remember a case by him on LnG at all.
1. Wow. There really is no responding to that, is there?
2. You're really pushing the 'too good to be wrong' point there, aren't you? (And, I note, utterly ignoring that I was, in fact, right about AI.) But even disregarding how ridiculous that point always is, the reasoning you give right there illustrates why that point is particularly rubbish now. 'If Seppel makes it to midgame...'... but it's not midgame now, is it? It's Day 2. And you're trying to use me being wrong about two people on day 1 (a day I was barely around for the whole later half of, no less) as a justification for the 'too good to be wrong' point. Played your hand a bit too fast there, didn't you?
3. There it is again. 'I don't remember'. You could be bothered to scan Killjoy's posts, but not mine, and not Proph's, when he outright prefaced said post with 'case on LnGrrrR' - and it wasn't a short post, either. And you don't seem to have even attempted to consider this since then, either. There's no way this is an honest read.
Read these replies, people. There isn't a shred of a town mindset to be found here. Arian has a set conclusion he's trying to link everything to, and is using blatant deception and handwaving to attempt to do so.
------------------
Need to head out now, and will have to be out literally the whole of tomorrow, so the reply to DCIII will have to wait until then. But I want a reply to the below before then as well.
"She flew at them, pointed teeth parted, razor claws flailing. In the hazy darkness, only the sounds of slaughter gave proof of what Yblisa was doing to the Celestials. Finally, the stars above twinkled once more (for of course Yblisa had been feeding on their energy to empower her dark rage, and to grant herself the cover of darkness), and there was no sign of Voes or Yblisa - save the twisted corpses of the Celestials who had tried to claim her."
"How horrible."
...explain to me, Iso, how that lines up with 'unmarked'. Because if I go by the above, it looks more like it lines up with AI's death flavour rather than Sir Chris's. So tell me again how you know that Yblisa targeted Sir Chris?
Meh. This is more than I can deal with from a phone, especially since this has already eaten my first attempt at replying to Arian.
Expect, however, several big replies on Monday. Because you are not getting me mislynched, and while DCIII actually has a good point in what I saw of his post, Arian's is full of falsehoods and faulty meta.
desCoures (21) -- Life happens. Life does not happen to this degree. desCoures is usually a post-a-day fellow, but his posts are dreadnoughts, complete with batteries of questions for a multitude of players. And while his last post or two here does reflect what I would expect from a town!dC, the effort just hasn't been there all along. He's opened most posts with an appeal to emotion (certainly more than he has not), and has a very vitriolic response to Seppel's suggestion that he replaces out, which reads like scum-mindedness. Furthermore still, don't forget that scum are less likely to replace out of games when they really should, because they feel that they don't want to abandon their teammates. I know I've experienced that for myself, and I can also think of Ganderin_Dan in Survival Horror as another example of this effect.
Vote desCoures.
First off, I've never been a 'post-a-day' fellow, not since some 5 years ago or so. I try to keep to a Mon-Wed-Fri posting schedule, and will make the effort to be around a bit more if needed, but it's not unusual for me to end up posting a day late or so if my real-life schedule gets in the way. And I'm personally insulted at what you're insinuating here. I try to put in the effort regardless of my alignment, and life does happen to 'this degree', thank you very much.
Second - not only does that 'appeal to emotion' point look completely cribbed from DCIII, it's also a complete misrepresentation. Like I reply to DCIII below, I post like that all the time whenever I miss my posting schedule. It's the only polite thing to do in a team game that requires a time commitment, and it's something that can be easily verified just by checking any of my past games. So trying to paint the use of the word 'apologies' as some kind of appeal to emotion to achieve... what exactly again?... is misinformed at best, and yes, outright malicious at worst.
Third - I was vitriolic towards Seppel because I was legitimately pissed off. Duh. I'd love to know how you read 'scum-mindedness' into that. In fact, I want you to detail how in the world that was supposedly the case to you.
Now for this 'case'... let's dismantle this point by point...
I spoiled all of the relevant quotes for concision, in their entirity so people can read full context if they wish. Note that they go from most recent -> oldest. LIkewise, I'm going to progress from most recent -> oldest in my evaluation.
-) Rezombied opinion:
rezombied seems more likely to be town. He's still done basically nothing of consequence, but his 'oh *****, don't hammer yet, I need to catch up' in response to what he thought was KJ being hammered doesn't make sense from mafia that knew KJ was town at all.
vs
But on this same page rezombied's 'oh ***** please don't hammer' just looks horrible.
Complete 180 on that.
This is completely obvious. I thought KJ was scum - therefore rezombied coming in and saying 'oh ***** don't hammer' looked utterly horrible. Now in the context that KJ was town, it makes absolutely no sense for a scum rezombied to come in and say that, when he would obviously know KJ was town. The above quote even details this same reasoning.
This 'point' doesn't even stand up to the most casual scrutiny.
@Seppel - let me put this in the most polite way I can manage. Screw off. I don't see where you get off calling me 'useless' and 'human wasteland'. I can't do a damned thing about work or getting sick, and if work really does get to a point where I completely can't manage, I will damned well ask for replacement myself.
Right. I don't actually have an awful lot of time today, especially with pre-release weekend coming up, and from my skim of recent developments there's this huge mess between a whole bunch of players that it'll take time to digest and untangle.
Apologies for not being around. Been sick in bed with some weird allergic reaction. The red spots still haven't all gone away.
Self-conscious start to almost every single post.
I can't believe that this can be in any way a sincere attack, given that you should have seen the exact same kind of post from me in CT3. You know, the game which just ended not long ago, which I directly refer to several times, and which you replaced into as scum.
Also, there's distinct malice in the way you deliberately remove the context of the above quotes. Like for #622, where you cut out all but the very first line, about me being busy.
What did I actually say?
Quote from me »
Apologies for the late reply. Was horrifically busy yesterday.
I've also only skimmed latest content. Apologies for that as well, but my other game is kind of at a critical juncture.
..followed by a chunk of questions/commentary. Guess which game, and what critical juncture, I meant.
I'll be the first to admit I haven't exactly committed the most energy to this game, but you're doing nothing here but exaggerating through fallacy of omission. There's not a shred of a townie thought process in that.
Vote: DCIII
The omgus is real.
Both of these interactions feel very staged and insecure to me -- Seppel's interaction in particular reads like scum vs scum.
Easy enough to make that statement, huh? How are these supposed to be 'staged and insecure', hm? And I find it very interesting that basically your only statement on me vs. DCIII is to plaster an 'OMGUS' label on it... as though I hadn't already stated I found something off about DCIII on day 1.
I'll reiterate my original point here that scum are less likely to replace out [when not under pressure, obviously] than town is, because they feel as if they owe it to their team to stick it out. Scum usually form a tighter bond with each other as a result of the sensation of "it's us vs the world." Unless your name is Iso, in which case it's "it's me vs the world."
dC displays a lot of self-consciousness throughout these sections. He knows that he isn't pulling his weight, but he defends himself -- viciously -- against those who attack him. I don't remember seeing this level of vehemence from dC ever before -- he's usually pretty calm and collected. I don't know that I would go so far as to say that emotion is a scumtell from him, but it's something that I think I should mention in case someone has more experience with dC than I do and can say with greater certainty.
That's a whole lot of fence-straddling language right there, for someone apparently confident enough that I'm scum to be voting me. You 'wouldn't go so far as to say that'... but you 'think you should mention it'. Riiiight. That's classic waving the thread and hoping someone else picks it up.
You 'not seeing this level of vehemence' from me before is also an utter lie, because you were in Ataghan and in Survival Horror, and you should have seen this 'vehemence' and worse from me multiple times over. Especially in Survival Horror, from my ongoing argument with Seppel for basically the whole of day 1. I refuse to believe you could have 'forgotten' that.
Prophylaxis is continuing his vote analysis today, which I'm never had faith in and additionally been disgusted with since Voxxicus got me mislynched with his vote analysis - but despite town flips from both Killjoy and AI, his conclusions appear to have not changed in the slightest.
I don't doubt the veracity of his historical anecdote about being mislynched because of Voxx's analysis. What I don't like, though, is that he seemingly bases his entire read on Prophylaxis on this one item. I further dislike this overall trend of people coming out against the votecount analysis that Proph has been doing, and it makes question if there's a concerted scum attempt at discrediting it because Proph is on the track of something.
You seem very in love with Prophylaxis for some reason. And more than that, you seem so in love with him that you're rubbishing the actual point I had in there - that despite multiple flips, including Killjoy as town when the day 1 vote count analysis was ostensibly predicated on Killjoy being scum... his actual conclusions today appear to be exactly the same as his conclusions yesterday.
-) Pushes Sir Chris, AI, and Killjoy all on D1 -- all three of which have flipped town.
This one re@Killjoy especially bothers me:
Question 2. Riddle me this. How in the world are you reading a town mindset into Killjoy's claim and the choices he was apparently intending to make? He has a vitality-destroying ability, that lowers a player's lifespan by a not insignificant amount over a few days... and his first thought is not to use this on someone he thinks is scum, but rather supposedly on one of his town reads. Because, apparently, he thinks that having their vitality hidden is enough of a benefit to scum to offset being effectively poisoned. Also note where he never appears to have considered the choice of just not using the ability, which is something I would have considered if I, as town truly thought that my ability would hurt town regardless on who I used it on, which would be the case if I had his role and actually thought hidden vitality was a real benefit to scum. That's why I never used my ability in Mostly Mute Monk, even when I could. This apparently has never crossed his mind.
I can't find the post now, but I am 100% certain that Killjoy specifically mentioned the possibility of not using his ability before dC posted this. dC either missed it or opted to neglect mentioning it.
Also, considering how much Megiddo's Vitality went nuts overnight, it's pretty obvious that 3 vit / night is meaningless to Meg. This reflects poorly on dC, because obviously KillJoy had actually considered the applications of his ability.
This one doesn't have any basis in fact or logic. First - I haven't actually gone back to look, but I'm pretty sure that he never said any such thing. And, in fact, he even said he was planning to use it on a town read.
The latter sentence there is even more laughable, because it's predicated on both mKilljoy somehow knowing exactly what Meg's vitality was going to be like. Killjoy outright said he didn't want to use his ability on his scum read Megiddo because 'he didn't want Meg's vitality to be hidden', so if you want to claim that he factored Megiddo's current vitality into 'the applications of his ability', then you're going to have to argue he somehow knew what Megiddo's vitality fluctuation would be like. And frankly, I don't even get how that's supposed to 'reflect poorly' on me, given that Killjoy outright said he was planning on hitting one of his town reads - not Megiddo - and which would shorten the lifespan of said townread perhaps quite drastically.
It's ironic that someone at some point said he thought there was a concerted effort to get AI through the day, because right now I'm feeling there's a distinct effort to get Killjoy through the day. One that's reminding me a lot of Cyberspace Mafia, and how three out of RobRoy's four teammates apparently felt his extra kill (which he also tried to spin as a town ability and wanted to be left alive one night to use and 'prove himself') was worth falling all over themselves to attempt to keep him from being lynched. Of these, Rhand looks particularly bad, but I don't like the way Sir Chris and HookerPunch are responding either.
Except, you know, KillJoy and AI both flipped town.
I'm rather torn on AI. The most recent game I remember playing with him as scum was Survival Horror, and I thought I remembered him being dismissive and stonewalling there, but when I looked back at that game it was actually mostly the opposite. It doesn't change the fact that his play this game has been less than convincing, though. Eh.
I distinctly recall later posting that I was against the AI wagon. Cherry pick much?
I'm still wary of DCIII. His #694 instantly reminded me of his endgame case in the just-concluded CT3, which is why I asked if that kind of case was usual for him. (Interestingly, as far as I saw while skimming, Prophylaxis was the only person who responded to that question.) Then there's his long emotional spiel in #945, which, as I understand it, is rather out of character for him - and he just finished the aforementioned CT3, where blatant emotional fakery basically won the scum team the game. And then there's how in that same post, he says he's 'feeling better about AI due to interactions with Iso'... but in his latest post he appears to be right back on AI as scum, despite having not mentioned him again in between. And his scumreads in that post are the erratic brothers and the two leading wagons.
...so wait. Let me get this straight. Earlier you accuse me of OMGUS against DCIII... but here you seem to be suggesting DCIII is my scummate? What?
1) Seppel interaction reeks of annoyed teammate.
2) Wrong about everyone who flipped N1: unlikely for someone of dC's skill. (aka: the not-an-idiot argument)
3) Uses historical anecdotes which don't necessarily apply to this game to attempt to guide opinions.
Bonus 4) Prophylaxis, can you check on this? I'm out of time to look back now, but I -think- that dC never actually voted for Chris, AI, or KillJoy despite having commented several times that he didn't like X / that Y was scummy etc. He voted DCIII twice, I believe, but never any of the three corpses. Can you confirm this since you have all the information handy courtesy of your vote analysis anyway?
Other than mostly being complete meta, let me illustrate just how poor all these points are:
1. No, it's just plain annoyed.
2. I'm distinctly sure I was right about AI. But other than how absolutely ridiculous the 'not-an-idiot' argument is... you were in Ataghan Mafia, as scum. Where I was town, and so utterly wrong about just about everything day 1 that I remember being outright surprised you lot killed me night 1 upon seeing the alignment spread in the spectator chat. You know very well that I can and have been just about totally wrong. I'm having a very hard time seeing how you can possibly have made this argument in any kind of honest fashion.
3. Uh huh. Obviously I thought they did apply, if I brought them up. Just like I thought, rightly, that they applied when I brought up the past in CT3. And you're being very oddly selective about this, given that Prophylaxis (who, again, you seem absolutely in love with) literally just did the exact same thing in his case against LnGrrrR. To, obviously, no complaint whatsoever from you.
I've got leaning scum reads on Rhand, Proph, kamikaze, and whoever redirected lng
I've got light scum reads on Rezombied and lng
Like some others have already said, this makes absolutely no sense. And why do you have a scum read on KamikazeArchon again?
@DCIII
...I could have sworn I quoted you, but somehow I can't find it now... in any case. The line I quoted proves that, contrary to what you appear to be trying to imply with your selective quoting, I was in fact trying to, and did, provide at least some level of content despite my real-life schedule and issues with CT3.
And speaking of CT3, of course the majority of my posts didn't start like that - I was able to stick to my regular posting schedule for most of CT3. And of course I had more of a 'sense of purpose' there - because Azrael was obvscum since day 1 who kept throwing horrible points at me while calling me scum, and somehow despite that half the game decided to collectively swallow everything he said.
All of which you should be aware of, making you throwing that point at me nothing short of disingenuous. Furthermore, you're attempting to paint my posts as somehow 'self-conscious', when any amount of research into my previous games should show you I post like that whenever I fail to stick to my regular posting schedule. And I know you do the research.
--------------------------
...that took a while. I'm currently seeing Arian/Proph/DCIII as likely scum, probably in that order - Arian just slid a lot with that horrible case and the sheer number of fallacies he just threw at me, and Prophylaxis being so easily 'convinced' by that poor case makes him look worse as well.
Accordingly, Unvote: DCIII Vote: Arianrhod
I don't think LnGrrrR is scum, and I'm rather unsurprised he ended up redirected after suggesting Alway Eteem first thing day 1 - which is the other reason I think the redirector is scum. It also makes no sense for him to come out and say what he did as scum.
Placeholder post. Currently wiped from World Cup viewing over the weekend.
I need to rethink the gamestate again in any case. Nacho being town was one thing, but Iso being town as well throws what I was thinking overnight off.
@Seppel - let me put this in the most polite way I can manage. Screw off. I don't see where you get off calling me 'useless' and 'human wasteland'. I can't do a damned thing about work or getting sick, and if work really does get to a point where I completely can't manage, I will damned well ask for replacement myself.
Killjoy, AI, and Chris all being town changes a few things. Still, there are a few observations that remain valid:
rezombied seems more likely to be town. He's still done basically nothing of consequence, but his 'oh *****, don't hammer yet, I need to catch up' in response to what he thought was KJ being hammered doesn't make sense from mafia that knew KJ was town at all.
With KJ and AI flipping town, Hunger's series of posts re: KJ and AI yesterday looks a lot worse. #1616 in particular was very wishy-washy about KJ at a time when he was already fairly certain to be hammered. His end conclusion seemed to have him leaning town on AI, but in a way that could easily have been reversed.
I probably have to revise my early town read of Arian. I don't actually remember much of anything from him past his first math post, and it's clear there are shenanigans going around with regard to vitality.
Right. I don't actually have an awful lot of time today, especially with pre-release weekend coming up, and from my skim of recent developments there's this huge mess between a whole bunch of players that it'll take time to digest and untangle.
Apologies for not being around. Been sick in bed with some weird allergic reaction. The red spots still haven't all gone away.
Self-conscious start to almost every single post.
I can't believe that this can be in any way a sincere attack, given that you should have seen the exact same kind of post from me in CT3. You know, the game which just ended not long ago, which I directly refer to several times, and which you replaced into as scum.
Also, there's distinct malice in the way you deliberately remove the context of the above quotes. Like for #622, where you cut out all but the very first line, about me being busy.
What did I actually say?
Quote from me »
Apologies for the late reply. Was horrifically busy yesterday.
I've also only skimmed latest content. Apologies for that as well, but my other game is kind of at a critical juncture.
..followed by a chunk of questions/commentary. Guess which game, and what critical juncture, I meant.
I'll be the first to admit I haven't exactly committed the most energy to this game, but you're doing nothing here but exaggerating through fallacy of omission. There's not a shred of a townie thought process in that.
Vote: DCIII
-------------
Other than the above, there's something else that's bugging me about DCIII, assuming he's telling the truth about losing 2 vitality last night. That one will depend on the mod's answer to the question I just asked him.
As above, Hunger also deserves scrutiny.
KamikazeArchon is fairly unlikely to be scum - I don't see a reason for him to use an ability-granting ability on Iso unless Iso is also scum, and there's absolutely no reason for a scum KArchon to be announcing it in-thread regardless. The only possibility would be some extreme corner case involving KArchon attempting to garner town cred, but it seems a needlessly high-risk maneuver. Occam's Razor says KArchon is town.
I also find it highly likely the mysterious redirector is scum. I don't see any reason for anyone to redirect from Iso to Megiddo, and given events yesterday, the other possibility of redirecting LnGrrrR to Megiddo seems very suspect as well.
I want to take another look at everyone who went after LnGrrrR, especially today. Of these, Sir Karn and Prophylaxis stand out as being particularly questionable. Prophylaxis is continuing his vote analysis today, which I'm never had faith in and additionally been disgusted with since Voxxicus got me mislynched with his vote analysis - but despite town flips from both Killjoy and AI, his conclusions appear to have not changed in the slightest. Sir Karn also starts the day with his 'confirmed scum' being LnGrrrR, Prophylaxis, and KArchon... the first and last of which are, given night actions, not likely to be scum, and the middle of whom has been going after the first for most of yesterday, and who voted said first 'confirmed scum' in his very first post of this day.
Apologies for not being around. Been sick in bed with some weird allergic reaction. The red spots still haven't all gone away.
I'm still feeling a bit off, so excuse me not catching up just this moment. But on this same page rezombied's 'oh ***** please don't hammer' just looks horrible.
I can hammer if needed. I'll check back later, assuming I don't fall asleep again.
DCIII with a vague, but ultimately sound vote on me. I mean voting me for things I've said is pretty fair.
Early town read further decreasing.
I see you missed the humor there. Let me help: what else would someone vote me for other than the things I've posted? Think about it.
Anyway been busy, just caught that. Let me go back to reading from where I left off.
I don't like Sir Chris attempting to play this off as sarcasm. Mainly because I don't remember a single hint before from him that it was supposed to be a sarcastic response. In fact, I seem to recall him implying it was a serious response at one point.
DC: You said I didn't quantify what about the position was suspicious. But directly before that, I said that it was because of the risk of outing abilities. I think I made that point earlier, but why not ask if you think I wasn't clear enough? The fact that you say I basically had no reason for the suspicion is suspicious.
...yeah, no.
What I'm understanding from this, and from your 'scum suspect list' is that you're apparently saying that suggesting Alway Eteem first thing in the game is suspicious because it's fishing. Except, you know, where it's the exact opposite of fishing. And where someone would have had to suggest somewhere at some point, because we sure as heck couldn't stay on the First Halls.
No, your stated reasoning for giving that list is nonsensical, and the sheer number of 'no reason given' (so what does that actually tell us?) on that list really makes one wonder why you bothered posting that list in the first place. And there's a very simple scum reason to do so.
One of the annoying things here is much about the claim depends on knowing Killjoy. I have no real prior experience with him so I don't know if he is more earnest about his claims or if he does like to play things up as scum. Hm.
I don't like how non-committal this is, at this point in the day.
i literally don't understand why. Please explain or show me where you already explained.
The wagon is being pushed by a flock of scumreads. And I never saw anything that is damning enough to call KillJoy scum. He's playing like I'm used to from him.
Question 1. Who are these 'scumreads'? Please list them.
Question 2. Riddle me this. How in the world are you reading a town mindset into Killjoy's claim and the choices he was apparently intending to make? He has a vitality-destroying ability, that lowers a player's lifespan by a not insignificant amount over a few days... and his first thought is not to use this on someone he thinks is scum, but rather supposedly on one of his town reads. Because, apparently, he thinks that having their vitality hidden is enough of a benefit to scum to offset being effectively poisoned. Also note where he never appears to have considered the choice of just not using the ability, which is something I would have considered if I, as town truly thought that my ability would hurt town regardless on who I used it on, which would be the case if I had his role and actually thought hidden vitality was a real benefit to scum. That's why I never used my ability in Mostly Mute Monk, even when I could. This apparently has never crossed his mind.
--------------------
It's ironic that someone at some point said he thought there was a concerted effort to get AI through the day, because right now I'm feeling there's a distinct effort to get Killjoy through the day. One that's reminding me a lot of Cyberspace Mafia, and how three out of RobRoy's four teammates apparently felt his extra kill (which he also tried to spin as a town ability and wanted to be left alive one night to use and 'prove himself') was worth falling all over themselves to attempt to keep him from being lynched. Of these, Rhand looks particularly bad, but I don't like the way Sir Chris and HookerPunch are responding either.
I want to vote Killjoy, but first: @Mod: Votecount, please.
Having some keyboard issues, so forgive any typos in this post.
Not enamoured o fthe AI wagon. He sounds consistently annoyed annd impatient, and his tone doesnt appreciably vary even as votes shift between him and Killjoy. I don't think scumAI is good enough at faking that lack of caring. It's not impossible that he's genuinely frustrated and wants out as scum, but I doubt it.
More supportive of Killjoy wagon after his latest post. His entire first part about 'early proposals to move to Alway being suspicious' is especially bad, including his qualifier to that statement and how he fails to quantify why said early proposals are supposedly suspicious. That list of his appears to serve no real purpose, and reads more like a message to scumbuddies than anything else. The only strong statements he makes are towards Prophylaxis and, unsurprisingly, AI. His 'Notes' section is also heavily slanted towards AI - this sounds very much like someone jusst wanting to push the alternate wagon to himself at any cost. Also, from the same Notes section, I can't actually tell why he has Prophylaxiss so heavily scum, and he appears to have Iso heavily scum for a relatively minor point and otherwise OMGUS reasons. I don't buy it.
In that context, HookerPunch suddenly throwing in objection to the Killjoy wagon is very suspicious.
dkings latest posts show a pretty town 'Aha!' thought process. I do want Sir Chris to answer thee point he brought up. I also have questions for Arian about that same post, but I'd like to be able to quote or that, so tomorrow affter I replace this keyboard.
I don't see the ratioanale for changing claim procedure.
Eh. Apologies for the very late post. A bunch of fairly urgent work due Monday came in and slapped me upside the head.
I really don't have the time or energy to be doing a total reread right now. I'll most likely do that during night 1.
I'm rather torn on AI. The most recent game I remember playing with him as scum was Survival Horror, and I thought I remembered him being dismissive and stonewalling there, but when I looked back at that game it was actually mostly the opposite. It doesn't change the fact that his play this game has been less than convincing, though. Eh.
I'm still wary of DCIII. His #694 instantly reminded me of his endgame case in the just-concluded CT3, which is why I asked if that kind of case was usual for him. (Interestingly, as far as I saw while skimming, Prophylaxis was the only person who responded to that question.) Then there's his long emotional spiel in #945, which, as I understand it, is rather out of character for him - and he just finished the aforementioned CT3, where blatant emotional fakery basically won the scum team the game. And then there's how in that same post, he says he's 'feeling better about AI due to interactions with Iso'... but in his latest post he appears to be right back on AI as scum, despite having not mentioned him again in between. And his scumreads in that post are the erratic brothers and the two leading wagons.
...actually, come to think of it, my DCIII read might be why I'm having issue with both the AI and Killjoy wagons. Especially the latter, which seems very much lurker hunting to me, in which case rezombied is probably worse.
Meh.
Vote: DCIII, pending a proper catchup on Monday/Tuesday. (Can someone also point me to a couple of DCIII's other games?)
@Kami: You'd best not try that in a game around here, though, unless you like being lynched day 1 as scum.
...of course, if I'm town in the same game, be my guest.
@Thor: I'd hardly say it was purely your fault; in fact, I say Zen and Nacho are both far more culpable, especially the latter. But it doesn't change how all of you managed to totally misread scum-Azrael, who was so obvious that both his own teammates decided they needed to bus him to the ground - and both you and Kami managed to continue that misread all the way to the final day, which sticks in my head specifically for that one point when Az was at virtual L-1 (with me having said that I'd be perfectly willing to lynch him) and you basically said that if the choices were Az and no-lynch, you'd snort and vote Kami.
Vote: desCoures
Vote: desCoures
But let's put an end to this nonsense now. The ability that causes the vote loss is mine, but it's my passive, not my actual ability. The above is to prove that this is the case. It's also only supposed to cause 3 vit loss, so I have no idea where Arian lost 2 more vit from.
You are not lynching me, and I do not want to fullclaim, at least not until I look properly at rezombied's posts, now that Cyan has claimed the redirector.
Arianrhod might still be scum, but he's roughly 50% less likely to be so. I still think something outright stinks about Proph, however.
On that note, since it's just above...
@dkingsland
Oh, really? Because I very much distinctly remember having attacked Rhand on day 1 and Proph yesterday at least.
I'd like an explanation from you what about my interactions with Seppel were suspect, please. That seems to be a rather popular refrain at the moment, and I'd like to see what exactly is actually behind that convenient phrase for each person.
More tomorrow.
....what the hell.
You are so Arian's scumbuddy for that.
That's bovine faeces. If you really thought I was scum attacking a townread, you'd be looking through what I said to show how I had a scum mindset attacking Arian. Not outright ignoring it while claiming to have read it.
Also, when did Arian become a townread for you? Because skimming your posts today, I actually don't see where you ever mentioned Arian as a townread. In fact, I don't even see why you have me as 'obvscum' - certainly you never posted any case at all, and the best I see is you supposedly agreeing with some part of Arian's bad meta case and you saying that if Seppel is scum, you want me and LnGrrrR dead... without a shred of justification for either.
Uh huh. Fair enough. So why didn't you say that in the first place?
I didn't play in Seasons. Heck, I'm fairly certain I was absent from the site around the time Seasons ran. So what doesn't make sense to me is why you couldn't have just stated the above in the first place, instead of doing a verbal run around until this point in time. In fact, it doesn't even make sense for you to have not just given a straight answer even if you had thought I'd been in Seasons.
No, what it feels like instead is that you didn't have a convenient answer on hand. Not until now, at least.
I'm also unconvinced by how belligerent you suddenly seem towards me after barely having had a word to say to me the whole day.
@Wildfire
Err, no. Not until Arian replies properly, please.
---------------------------
To: Everyone Else
Until Arian gets back, I'd like everyone else to actually read my last couple of posts addressed to him, and at least say a few lines about it, hm?
Iso
....err, no. If Sir Chris was killed by the scum, which is probably the case, all that tells us is that 'dead but unmarked' lines up with the mafia nightkill. So how did you go from there to 'Chris was targeted by Yblisa'?
It can't be the OP flavour either. From the snippet of the OP I provided above, Yblisa killing someone would appear to line up very much more with the flavour for AI's death rather than Sir Chris's. And in any case I seriously doubt the scum would have chosen AI for the kill.
So. Again. How do you know that Sir Chris was targeted by Yblisa?
@Arianrhod
...oh, come of it. This is blatantly false and you know it. I never once called you anything even close to an 'awful human being' in that entire post, because that's simply not what I do, at least not without being seriously infuriated. You don't even come close to the level of frustration Azrael caused me in CT3 at this point.
I don't see what in the world in my post could possibly cause 'a spittle-wielding frenzy' (whatever that is), and I'm not going to accept that as a valid reason for you to just handwave away my entire reply to you.
That last paragraph is horrible. You've been townreading Iso... but would still apparently be fine with possibly lynching Kamikaze, despite just how little sense it would make for a scum Kamikaze to gift Iso with anything in the first place. And if you really didn't trust Kamikaze, it would be as simple as having the town decide who he should target, on pain of lynch - and even if he claims redirection, he still has to own up to his new target, and the scum redirector can't do anything else without exposing him. I.E. one scum power role is shut down and he risks exposing scumbuddies, or else he's giving abilities to town roles.
None of that train of thought re:Kamikaze makes a lick of sense.
@Prophylaxis
...uh huh. Pot, kettle?
The above bolded reads like a blatant attempt to stop me from pursuing one (or both) scumbuddies of Proph's. Seriously, did you even read what I said about Arian?
-----------------
I didn't actually see anything terribly off about Seppel myself. If anything, as annoyed as I was by it, him calling me on lurking seemed less likely for him to say as scum, given that as scum he'd happily let town lurk away. But with him asking for replacement at this juncture it's unlikely anyone else will be lynched, so eh.
That being said, I very much want responses from Iso and Arian at least before the day ends.
And where does "Deltrese" show up on the OP?[/quote]
First post will be the reply I owe DCIII, before I go over what's happened since then.
@DCIII
Point of order. What I was doing here was wanting Arianrhod to quantify exactly how that interaction was 'scum-minded' to him, rather than just slapping that label on like he did - therefore that last line. I don't see how I was 'attacking' the concept you mention above - rather, I questioned Arian attempting to paint as 'scum-minded' something that should have been a null tell
..also, please clarify something. Do you actually think that I wasn't legitimately annoyed at Seppel?
As I mentioned previously to Arian, I'll concede the point on rezombied, for the reason that somehow I failed to consider when I made that post that even if he'd derailed the KJ wagon with that post, the lynch would probably have defaulted to AI, which meant that a theoretical scum rezombied would have had little to lose in any case. So fair enough.
Point of order - I had a sum total of three posts on day 1 after this one that you quote - and those posts came with large amounts of time in between. The KJ and AI wagons were more pertinent to discuss, and while I'm not at all proud of it, I'd completely lost track of the game around this time. Quite simply, I'd largely forgotten about you at that point, since whenever I scanned recent posts nothing in your posts particularly caught my notice. It wasn't until I looked over the game again at night that I remembered having an issue with you.
I probably should have unvoted at some point, but eh.
I don't understand this question, actually. I'll admit to the failure to check meta - I'll get to that in a bit - but how in the world is it 'cherry picking' when I see a possible connection between you (who I was suspicious of) and Proph, who was the only person of all the people you'd played with that didn't outright ignore me when I asked that question?
As far as not checking meta goes, I simply don't have an excuse. I quite forgot I even mentioned that, in fact.
Let me note in the first place that asking for meta was already atypical for me. I don't usually spend time checking for meta, because I find that it's often not all that reliable, and frankly I just don't have the time to look through whole games these days. Thus, I usually only use meta from games I actually played in. But in this case the only game I've ever played with you was CT3, where you were a last day replacement, which despite the similarity I saw didn't really give me that much to work with. And it didn't help that I'll admit that I'm not exactly unbiased when it comes to anything to do with CT3, given how painful a game it was for me. Therefore the above quoted atypical request - which I quite forgot about later and thus never followed up on.
Then we come to day 2, where you began the day with what looked like a totally ridiculous case on me based on me being 'apologetic'. Which instantly made me suspicious of you all over again, because that was, as I said to Arian, totally false meta, and looked like nothing more than krap logick.
...huh? I never said you used emotional fakery in that game. But it was in fact a very large reason the mafia managed a perfect win in that game, and it's not unusual at all for players to try a winning tactic in another game.
...huh? I don't follow. I said that to Arian because he was apparently attempting to rubbish my response to you by calling it 'OMGUS', which seemed quite disingenuous in the context that I had, in fact, previously expressed suspicion of you - so from his perspective, it shouldn't have looked at all like me throwing suspicion back at you out of nowhere, which is what OMGUS basically is. That OMGUS accusation looked even more ridiculous when you take into account later, where he's apparently convinced both you and I are scum.
As for the rest of that - see above. It's a poor excuse, yes, but it's the truth.
As one of the reasons. The series of project deadlines I had to deal with followed by me falling ill (probably from all those project deadlines) was also a heavy reason, and one which I also mention.
Fair enough on the latter point, although I should hope it's clear by now that's not the case. But given the way you clipped headers from posts that were often quite a bit larger than said headers, it sure as heck looked like that's what you were trying to imply.
First off. Fair enough on you not having a good grasp on my meta. For some reason I'd mentally attributed something someone else (Nacho, I think) said about having heavily meta-ed Azrael to you, which was blatantly wrong. So apologies for that. That being said, your initial case very much was basically just 'self conscious and apologetic', which my immediate response to was that that's blatantly wrong.
As for my top scum reads having been people who expressed suspicion of me today, that was very much because of the way they did it, which admittedly I probably didn't quantify properly. To whit; (1) you started off with what looked like an utterly bogus case based on incorrect meta on me, and I'd just been reminded by my overnight review that I'd had an issue with you based on similarities with CT3. In context, I was mistaken that you should have known better, but at the time that's what it felt like. (2) Arianrhod, on the other hand, pushed a case full of faulty logic in addition to the above stated bogus case based on incorrect meta, and unlike you he very much should know better. And (3) Prophylaxis was engaging in background wagon pushing on me, while basically reposting the same weirdly placed vote analysis from the previous day and going all out to get LnGrrrR lynched.
...which actually reminds me, I should take another look at Cythare as well.
Part 2 coming once I scan recent events.
Re: & @Arianrhod
This is utterly false, and amazingly easily verified. There were sections in that game when I posted more frequently, but the vast majority of my posts in that game came 2 or even 3 days apart, which a simple search of my posts in that game shows.
Uh huh. Way to not at all address the actual point, and instead choose the sidetrack to use as a strawman. No dice. You constructed or outright borrowed points based on false meta and attempted to use them against me - meta that you should know is inaccurate at best. Blatantly ignoring said point doesn't make it go away.
Ah hah. And here you are outright trying to say that emotion is a scum tell for me. After previously having used language like 'wouldn't go so far as to call it a scum tell' - and, again, after you've very well seen me express that level of emotion and more in previous games with me. Who do you think you're kidding?
And Mafia is a team game regardless of which team you're on, unless you're an independent neutral of some sort. If you're town, and not playing like you're on a team, you're doing it wrong; and that's entirely why I refuse to play in league games, because I think the scoring makes it less about the team and more about yourself. So to my view, that latter point is utter and complete nonsense.
This I will actually concede, after seeing DCIII's point about it. I failed to consider that even if rezombied ended up stopping KJ's lynch with that post, the lynch would probably have defaulted to AI. So fair enough.
This, however...
Again, brushing off the main point - which is that you slap 'staged and insecure' as labels on those posts without quantifying why they're supposed to be so in the slightest - and instead only addressing the other point. And with a ridiculously flippant response that barely addresses said point in the first place.
Get real.
Ah, so now we're claiming faulty memory. Fine, fair enough... except, you know, where basically 90% of your whole case is meta, and your meta is blatantly inaccurate.
You see, this is the whole problem I have with your case. It's almost completely a meta construct, and yet when I challenge you on the accuracy of your (very blatantly wrong) meta... your first instinct is neither to check said meta or to even halfway consider your stance again - but instead to defensively shore up your meta arguments with 'I don't remember'. 'I don't remember', yet you're pushing a case based entirely on what you remember from previous games. That's utterly laughable, and not a town mindset in the least. You're not trying to figure things out. You're pushing a krap logick case with everything you can throw at me.
Oh, and seriously, you think these are ad hominems? You're cute. Or, you know, plastic. Because I don't see how what I said could possibly have been taken as an 'ad hominem', and I think you're blatantly manufacturing that emotion.
Sir Chris was 'basically dead weight'... and yet I seem to recall you tossing the point that maybe he was killed because he was suspicious of me. Uh huh. And if one of the top wagons for the day and the eventual lynch wagon flipping town doesn't affect the 'votecount analysis' much, when the one making said analysis was apparently sure said lynch was scum on day 1... I say there was something wrong with the vote analysis in the first place.
And that last bit? Completely apples and oranges. Evaluating game state on a new day is one thing, following ridiculous 'rules' like '5-man wagons on town must have scum on them' is utter rubbish. Trying to suggest the two are on the same level is disingenuous, and the way you did it just feels like slime-hurling.
I did in fact miss that, but upon checking, that came after he'd already claimed, said he was intending on using it on a town read instead of one of his scum reads, and was grilled about that by multiple people. So frankly even if I had seen that, it wouldn't have changed a thing - if he'd said that it one of his first few posts on the subject, fair enough, but by this point there's no way that could have been taken as evidence that he'd been considering it from the beginning.
And come off it. Without private information, there's no way anyone could have guessed that Megiddo's vitality was going to do that. He could have had anything - like a passive that prevented vitality loss from planes or whatever. Any number of possibilities existed, and trying to claim that 'it should have been obvious' is a blatant falsehood.
Oh, and you could be bothered to go and find this quote, I note.
Uh huh. So everyone who said something about KJ v. AI on day 1 was 'fearmongering'? That's blatant rubbish. More slime-hurling.
...but you couldn't be bothered to go and find this one.
Again, I reiterate - you're not attempting to actually figure things out. You're just throwing whatever you can at me to try and paint me as scum.
...I don't even know where to begin to respond to how blatantly wrong this is. Bussing happens, yes. But if you're suggesting I, as scum, called out scum!DCIII (totally not under scrutiny) on day 1, out of nowhere, quoting a just-finished game... I think you either need to get your head examined, or just plain swing.
Oh, and incidentally? That's a 'historical anecdote that doesn't necessarily apply to this game'. Nice to know you agree you're scummy.
1. Wow. There really is no responding to that, is there?
2. You're really pushing the 'too good to be wrong' point there, aren't you? (And, I note, utterly ignoring that I was, in fact, right about AI.) But even disregarding how ridiculous that point always is, the reasoning you give right there illustrates why that point is particularly rubbish now. 'If Seppel makes it to midgame...'... but it's not midgame now, is it? It's Day 2. And you're trying to use me being wrong about two people on day 1 (a day I was barely around for the whole later half of, no less) as a justification for the 'too good to be wrong' point. Played your hand a bit too fast there, didn't you?
3. There it is again. 'I don't remember'. You could be bothered to scan Killjoy's posts, but not mine, and not Proph's, when he outright prefaced said post with 'case on LnGrrrR' - and it wasn't a short post, either. And you don't seem to have even attempted to consider this since then, either. There's no way this is an honest read.
Read these replies, people. There isn't a shred of a town mindset to be found here. Arian has a set conclusion he's trying to link everything to, and is using blatant deception and handwaving to attempt to do so.
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Need to head out now, and will have to be out literally the whole of tomorrow, so the reply to DCIII will have to wait until then. But I want a reply to the below before then as well.
@Iso
The flavour of the kill?
...explain to me, Iso, how that lines up with 'unmarked'. Because if I go by the above, it looks more like it lines up with AI's death flavour rather than Sir Chris's. So tell me again how you know that Yblisa targeted Sir Chris?
Expect, however, several big replies on Monday. Because you are not getting me mislynched, and while DCIII actually has a good point in what I saw of his post, Arian's is full of falsehoods and faulty meta.
Do not tl;dr.
How do you know that whoever targeted Sir Chris was Yblisa? Because I'm not seeing anything that suggests that in the slightest.
@Arianrhod
...right. Let's take this from the top.
First off, I've never been a 'post-a-day' fellow, not since some 5 years ago or so. I try to keep to a Mon-Wed-Fri posting schedule, and will make the effort to be around a bit more if needed, but it's not unusual for me to end up posting a day late or so if my real-life schedule gets in the way. And I'm personally insulted at what you're insinuating here. I try to put in the effort regardless of my alignment, and life does happen to 'this degree', thank you very much.
Second - not only does that 'appeal to emotion' point look completely cribbed from DCIII, it's also a complete misrepresentation. Like I reply to DCIII below, I post like that all the time whenever I miss my posting schedule. It's the only polite thing to do in a team game that requires a time commitment, and it's something that can be easily verified just by checking any of my past games. So trying to paint the use of the word 'apologies' as some kind of appeal to emotion to achieve... what exactly again?... is misinformed at best, and yes, outright malicious at worst.
Third - I was vitriolic towards Seppel because I was legitimately pissed off. Duh. I'd love to know how you read 'scum-mindedness' into that. In fact, I want you to detail how in the world that was supposedly the case to you.
Now for this 'case'... let's dismantle this point by point...
This is completely obvious. I thought KJ was scum - therefore rezombied coming in and saying 'oh ***** don't hammer' looked utterly horrible. Now in the context that KJ was town, it makes absolutely no sense for a scum rezombied to come in and say that, when he would obviously know KJ was town. The above quote even details this same reasoning.
This 'point' doesn't even stand up to the most casual scrutiny.
Easy enough to make that statement, huh? How are these supposed to be 'staged and insecure', hm? And I find it very interesting that basically your only statement on me vs. DCIII is to plaster an 'OMGUS' label on it... as though I hadn't already stated I found something off about DCIII on day 1.
That's a whole lot of fence-straddling language right there, for someone apparently confident enough that I'm scum to be voting me. You 'wouldn't go so far as to say that'... but you 'think you should mention it'. Riiiight. That's classic waving the thread and hoping someone else picks it up.
You 'not seeing this level of vehemence' from me before is also an utter lie, because you were in Ataghan and in Survival Horror, and you should have seen this 'vehemence' and worse from me multiple times over. Especially in Survival Horror, from my ongoing argument with Seppel for basically the whole of day 1. I refuse to believe you could have 'forgotten' that.
You seem very in love with Prophylaxis for some reason. And more than that, you seem so in love with him that you're rubbishing the actual point I had in there - that despite multiple flips, including Killjoy as town when the day 1 vote count analysis was ostensibly predicated on Killjoy being scum... his actual conclusions today appear to be exactly the same as his conclusions yesterday.
That strawman attempt wasn't very subtle.
This one doesn't have any basis in fact or logic. First - I haven't actually gone back to look, but I'm pretty sure that he never said any such thing. And, in fact, he even said he was planning to use it on a town read.
The latter sentence there is even more laughable, because it's predicated on both mKilljoy somehow knowing exactly what Meg's vitality was going to be like. Killjoy outright said he didn't want to use his ability on his scum read Megiddo because 'he didn't want Meg's vitality to be hidden', so if you want to claim that he factored Megiddo's current vitality into 'the applications of his ability', then you're going to have to argue he somehow knew what Megiddo's vitality fluctuation would be like. And frankly, I don't even get how that's supposed to 'reflect poorly' on me, given that Killjoy outright said he was planning on hitting one of his town reads - not Megiddo - and which would shorten the lifespan of said townread perhaps quite drastically.
And?
I distinctly recall later posting that I was against the AI wagon. Cherry pick much?
...so wait. Let me get this straight. Earlier you accuse me of OMGUS against DCIII... but here you seem to be suggesting DCIII is my scummate? What?
Other than mostly being complete meta, let me illustrate just how poor all these points are:
1. No, it's just plain annoyed.
2. I'm distinctly sure I was right about AI. But other than how absolutely ridiculous the 'not-an-idiot' argument is... you were in Ataghan Mafia, as scum. Where I was town, and so utterly wrong about just about everything day 1 that I remember being outright surprised you lot killed me night 1 upon seeing the alignment spread in the spectator chat. You know very well that I can and have been just about totally wrong. I'm having a very hard time seeing how you can possibly have made this argument in any kind of honest fashion.
3. Uh huh. Obviously I thought they did apply, if I brought them up. Just like I thought, rightly, that they applied when I brought up the past in CT3. And you're being very oddly selective about this, given that Prophylaxis (who, again, you seem absolutely in love with) literally just did the exact same thing in his case against LnGrrrR. To, obviously, no complaint whatsoever from you.
@hansanator
Like some others have already said, this makes absolutely no sense. And why do you have a scum read on KamikazeArchon again?
@DCIII
...I could have sworn I quoted you, but somehow I can't find it now... in any case. The line I quoted proves that, contrary to what you appear to be trying to imply with your selective quoting, I was in fact trying to, and did, provide at least some level of content despite my real-life schedule and issues with CT3.
And speaking of CT3, of course the majority of my posts didn't start like that - I was able to stick to my regular posting schedule for most of CT3. And of course I had more of a 'sense of purpose' there - because Azrael was obvscum since day 1 who kept throwing horrible points at me while calling me scum, and somehow despite that half the game decided to collectively swallow everything he said.
All of which you should be aware of, making you throwing that point at me nothing short of disingenuous. Furthermore, you're attempting to paint my posts as somehow 'self-conscious', when any amount of research into my previous games should show you I post like that whenever I fail to stick to my regular posting schedule. And I know you do the research.
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...that took a while. I'm currently seeing Arian/Proph/DCIII as likely scum, probably in that order - Arian just slid a lot with that horrible case and the sheer number of fallacies he just threw at me, and Prophylaxis being so easily 'convinced' by that poor case makes him look worse as well.
Accordingly, Unvote: DCIII
Vote: Arianrhod
I don't think LnGrrrR is scum, and I'm rather unsurprised he ended up redirected after suggesting Alway Eteem first thing day 1 - which is the other reason I think the redirector is scum. It also makes no sense for him to come out and say what he did as scum.
Also, since I forgot to do this on Monday...
Vote: Move to Alway Eteem
Found. In no time at all, no less.
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Heard back from the mod. Apparently the other thing is a non-issue, so eh.
That being said, one thing I forgot in the above post...
@Hunger
What is your opinion of DCIII and Prophylaxis? Reasons as well, please.
@Seppel - let me put this in the most polite way I can manage. Screw off. I don't see where you get off calling me 'useless' and 'human wasteland'. I can't do a damned thing about work or getting sick, and if work really does get to a point where I completely can't manage, I will damned well ask for replacement myself.
Killjoy, AI, and Chris all being town changes a few things. Still, there are a few observations that remain valid:
rezombied seems more likely to be town. He's still done basically nothing of consequence, but his 'oh *****, don't hammer yet, I need to catch up' in response to what he thought was KJ being hammered doesn't make sense from mafia that knew KJ was town at all.
With KJ and AI flipping town, Hunger's series of posts re: KJ and AI yesterday looks a lot worse. #1616 in particular was very wishy-washy about KJ at a time when he was already fairly certain to be hammered. His end conclusion seemed to have him leaning town on AI, but in a way that could easily have been reversed.
I probably have to revise my early town read of Arian. I don't actually remember much of anything from him past his first math post, and it's clear there are shenanigans going around with regard to vitality.
I am somewhat less interested in Rhand today.
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A few questions.
@Rhand
Eh. What was the townslip?
@Iso
Wait. How do you know this?
@Seppel
Same question. How do you know this?
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@DCIII
I can't believe that this can be in any way a sincere attack, given that you should have seen the exact same kind of post from me in CT3. You know, the game which just ended not long ago, which I directly refer to several times, and which you replaced into as scum.
Also, there's distinct malice in the way you deliberately remove the context of the above quotes. Like for #622, where you cut out all but the very first line, about me being busy.
What did I actually say?
..followed by a chunk of questions/commentary. Guess which game, and what critical juncture, I meant.
I'll be the first to admit I haven't exactly committed the most energy to this game, but you're doing nothing here but exaggerating through fallacy of omission. There's not a shred of a townie thought process in that.
Vote: DCIII
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Other than the above, there's something else that's bugging me about DCIII, assuming he's telling the truth about losing 2 vitality last night. That one will depend on the mod's answer to the question I just asked him.
As above, Hunger also deserves scrutiny.
KamikazeArchon is fairly unlikely to be scum - I don't see a reason for him to use an ability-granting ability on Iso unless Iso is also scum, and there's absolutely no reason for a scum KArchon to be announcing it in-thread regardless. The only possibility would be some extreme corner case involving KArchon attempting to garner town cred, but it seems a needlessly high-risk maneuver. Occam's Razor says KArchon is town.
I also find it highly likely the mysterious redirector is scum. I don't see any reason for anyone to redirect from Iso to Megiddo, and given events yesterday, the other possibility of redirecting LnGrrrR to Megiddo seems very suspect as well.
I want to take another look at everyone who went after LnGrrrR, especially today. Of these, Sir Karn and Prophylaxis stand out as being particularly questionable. Prophylaxis is continuing his vote analysis today, which I'm never had faith in and additionally been disgusted with since Voxxicus got me mislynched with his vote analysis - but despite town flips from both Killjoy and AI, his conclusions appear to have not changed in the slightest. Sir Karn also starts the day with his 'confirmed scum' being LnGrrrR, Prophylaxis, and KArchon... the first and last of which are, given night actions, not likely to be scum, and the middle of whom has been going after the first for most of yesterday, and who voted said first 'confirmed scum' in his very first post of this day.
Apologies for not being around. Been sick in bed with some weird allergic reaction. The red spots still haven't all gone away.
I'm still feeling a bit off, so excuse me not catching up just this moment. But on this same page rezombied's 'oh ***** please don't hammer' just looks horrible.
I can hammer if needed. I'll check back later, assuming I don't fall asleep again.
Yes. So?
I don't like Sir Chris attempting to play this off as sarcasm. Mainly because I don't remember a single hint before from him that it was supposed to be a sarcastic response. In fact, I seem to recall him implying it was a serious response at one point.
...yeah, no.
What I'm understanding from this, and from your 'scum suspect list' is that you're apparently saying that suggesting Alway Eteem first thing in the game is suspicious because it's fishing. Except, you know, where it's the exact opposite of fishing. And where someone would have had to suggest somewhere at some point, because we sure as heck couldn't stay on the First Halls.
No, your stated reasoning for giving that list is nonsensical, and the sheer number of 'no reason given' (so what does that actually tell us?) on that list really makes one wonder why you bothered posting that list in the first place. And there's a very simple scum reason to do so.
I don't like how non-committal this is, at this point in the day.
Question 1. Who are these 'scumreads'? Please list them.
Question 2. Riddle me this. How in the world are you reading a town mindset into Killjoy's claim and the choices he was apparently intending to make? He has a vitality-destroying ability, that lowers a player's lifespan by a not insignificant amount over a few days... and his first thought is not to use this on someone he thinks is scum, but rather supposedly on one of his town reads. Because, apparently, he thinks that having their vitality hidden is enough of a benefit to scum to offset being effectively poisoned. Also note where he never appears to have considered the choice of just not using the ability, which is something I would have considered if I, as town truly thought that my ability would hurt town regardless on who I used it on, which would be the case if I had his role and actually thought hidden vitality was a real benefit to scum. That's why I never used my ability in Mostly Mute Monk, even when I could. This apparently has never crossed his mind.
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It's ironic that someone at some point said he thought there was a concerted effort to get AI through the day, because right now I'm feeling there's a distinct effort to get Killjoy through the day. One that's reminding me a lot of Cyberspace Mafia, and how three out of RobRoy's four teammates apparently felt his extra kill (which he also tried to spin as a town ability and wanted to be left alive one night to use and 'prove himself') was worth falling all over themselves to attempt to keep him from being lynched. Of these, Rhand looks particularly bad, but I don't like the way Sir Chris and HookerPunch are responding either.
I want to vote Killjoy, but first: @Mod: Votecount, please.
Not enamoured o fthe AI wagon. He sounds consistently annoyed annd impatient, and his tone doesnt appreciably vary even as votes shift between him and Killjoy. I don't think scumAI is good enough at faking that lack of caring. It's not impossible that he's genuinely frustrated and wants out as scum, but I doubt it.
More supportive of Killjoy wagon after his latest post. His entire first part about 'early proposals to move to Alway being suspicious' is especially bad, including his qualifier to that statement and how he fails to quantify why said early proposals are supposedly suspicious. That list of his appears to serve no real purpose, and reads more like a message to scumbuddies than anything else. The only strong statements he makes are towards Prophylaxis and, unsurprisingly, AI. His 'Notes' section is also heavily slanted towards AI - this sounds very much like someone jusst wanting to push the alternate wagon to himself at any cost. Also, from the same Notes section, I can't actually tell why he has Prophylaxiss so heavily scum, and he appears to have Iso heavily scum for a relatively minor point and otherwise OMGUS reasons. I don't buy it.
In that context, HookerPunch suddenly throwing in objection to the Killjoy wagon is very suspicious.
dkings latest posts show a pretty town 'Aha!' thought process. I do want Sir Chris to answer thee point he brought up. I also have questions for Arian about that same post, but I'd like to be able to quote or that, so tomorrow affter I replace this keyboard.
I don't see the ratioanale for changing claim procedure.
I really don't have the time or energy to be doing a total reread right now. I'll most likely do that during night 1.
I'm rather torn on AI. The most recent game I remember playing with him as scum was Survival Horror, and I thought I remembered him being dismissive and stonewalling there, but when I looked back at that game it was actually mostly the opposite. It doesn't change the fact that his play this game has been less than convincing, though. Eh.
I'm still wary of DCIII. His #694 instantly reminded me of his endgame case in the just-concluded CT3, which is why I asked if that kind of case was usual for him. (Interestingly, as far as I saw while skimming, Prophylaxis was the only person who responded to that question.) Then there's his long emotional spiel in #945, which, as I understand it, is rather out of character for him - and he just finished the aforementioned CT3, where blatant emotional fakery basically won the scum team the game. And then there's how in that same post, he says he's 'feeling better about AI due to interactions with Iso'... but in his latest post he appears to be right back on AI as scum, despite having not mentioned him again in between. And his scumreads in that post are the erratic brothers and the two leading wagons.
...actually, come to think of it, my DCIII read might be why I'm having issue with both the AI and Killjoy wagons. Especially the latter, which seems very much lurker hunting to me, in which case rezombied is probably worse.
Meh.
Vote: DCIII, pending a proper catchup on Monday/Tuesday. (Can someone also point me to a couple of DCIII's other games?)
...of course, if I'm town in the same game, be my guest.
@Thor: I'd hardly say it was purely your fault; in fact, I say Zen and Nacho are both far more culpable, especially the latter. But it doesn't change how all of you managed to totally misread scum-Azrael, who was so obvious that both his own teammates decided they needed to bus him to the ground - and both you and Kami managed to continue that misread all the way to the final day, which sticks in my head specifically for that one point when Az was at virtual L-1 (with me having said that I'd be perfectly willing to lynch him) and you basically said that if the choices were Az and no-lynch, you'd snort and vote Kami.