Just in case anyone was curious about the results and had a hard time seeing the individual data, I have posted all the results (excluding every single write in). You can see them in the first post of this thread: https://www.mtgnexus.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=500
Thanks again to everyone who participated!
- ChazA4
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Member for 7 years, 3 months, and 14 days
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schweinefett posted a message on Banning Criteria discussion: Allow players to win out of nowherePosted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from illakunsaa »I'm pretty sure the ban criteria is a joke. Sol ring has hit all criteria for years and it's still legal.
just as mishra's workshop hits all the restricted criteria for vintage; brainstorm for legacy. But each format needs their 'signature' card(s) that help define the format. It just so happens that sol ring is that card for EDH.
....and wait a minute; does sol ring really break all of these points?
• Cause severe resource imbalances (i'd severely debate the qualifier severe)
• Allow players to win out of nowhere (not by itself)
• Prevent players from contributing to the game in a meaningful way. (it's not a hoser)
• Cause other players to feel they must play certain cards, even though they are also problematic. (yes; though on any given game, there's usually some number of other artefacts i'd rather be stealing)
• Are very difficult for other players to interact with, especially if doing so requires dedicated, narrow responses when deck-building. (every colour can deal with artefacts - though mana abilities can't be interacted with easily)
• Interact poorly with the multiplayer nature of the format or the specific rules of Commander. (not really?)
• Lead to repetitive game play. (sol ring does this, but in the same way that basic island does.)
I think that many EDH players are a bit too hung up on not having structure to the rules. Maybe a larger emphasis on a social agreement is needed? Maybe as a part of the official rules, before the game starts, players need to describe their deck and what they expect to contribute/expect from the upcoming game.
An aside - I played with randoms one day at the local LGS some months ago, and i started the game by saying that i got a rakdos suicide aggro deck that's somewhat tuned ~75%-90% probably. one other person described their deck as a warrior tribal, another as a nearly unmodified precon, and the 4th kept tightlipped. The table got crushed on turn 3 or 4 by human tribal. By calling it human tribal, it's like he was deliberately hiding the fact that it's a hermit druid combo. the fact that it and najeela are humans is irrelevant.
At that point, everyone's playing the game by the rules, but the 'human tribal' guy was not playing by the spirit of the format, or at least how i saw the format to be. If i want to crush my opponent, i have legacy for that. If i wanna play magical cardboard wizard with a pet lord of tresserhorn who leads my pile of old-school rubbish, i got EDH for that. But if my mates want to play magical cardboard wizards with a more 'serious' bent to it, i'd wanna know so i'd know to choose a gun over a toothpick to the gunfight.
I don't think the banlist is the problem; it's the ideals and principles/philosophy of the format not being well understood by some players. -
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MRHblue posted a message on 7/8 BanlistPosted in: Commander (EDH)
These sorts of comments are exactly why the RC should never listen to people on the internet.Quote from Macabre »Really I'm going to just assume that sheldon was recently destroyed by some engine deck, got hosed by iona, and was trapped in a conversation by someone that wanted him to unban painter and he was too beta to do anything otherwise. That or he stockpiled painters and is using his role to get some cash.
People love EDH while virtually spitting in the face of the people who brought it to us. It's sad, and predictable -
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cryogen posted a message on Commander Climate SurveyPosted in: Commander (EDH)Quote from ChazA4 »Done, and done. I like this idea(must have missed it previous years), and I look forward to the data that results. Will you share said data after the polls close?
I will. If you attempt to open the survey again it will take you to a "you already completed this survey" page that has an link to view all results. -
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cryogen posted a message on Commander Climate Surveyhttps://forms.gle/aSA7hjo5G1HCK1V87Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Hi everyone. For those who may not know, I have been conducting an annual survey about the Commander ban list and some of the more controversial and debated rules of the format. This year however, I'm both widening the scope of the survey as well as conducting it on a medium that I hope will result in much more feedback for the Rules Committee.
The questions are a mix of ones that i have asked in previous years, questions i see brought up constantly, as well as ones that I crafted based on reading feedback the RC has given similar polls in the past.
The poll should take five to ten minutes to fill out, so hopefully you'll participate. And please, share this with your friends and other players, because the larger the sample size the better the data will be for the RC.
Thanks! -
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You're missing how ramp works; ramping hard will sometimes lower your real curve. Look at Tron in Modern. It's got one of the lowest curves in the game because all it does is ramp. most Modern and Legacy ramp decks are the same way. Downward pressure on curves presses decks that want to play bombs to ramp harder. It's closely connected.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
Downward pressure on curves is not the same as downward pressure on average CMC.
I think if you take a peek at CEDH lists you'll see that faster games lead to more ramp not less, it just leads to cheaper ramp. Almost every CEDH deck is playing the same pile of 0-1 cmc ramp with a little 2 sprinkled in.
When I see you brushing concerns aside with "I see this as 100% major win" and "pure upside" I think it is clear that you're not really engaging with a fairly nuanced issue and it makes me inclined to disagree with you simply because I feel like the side making absolutist arguments is usually wrong when talking about complicated subjective things. Reminds me a lot of the Planeswalker discussion.
Fundamentally it does not matter how you see it. It matters how the population that plays EDH sees it, and in order to make good decisions we need to see things from broader perspectives. -
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TheAmericanSpirit posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
All of you complain too much. I play edh to play a format unlike any other. If I can jam necropotence, grim monolith, greater good, and reality scramble into the same deck and have it work, that's why I'm here.
Truthfully, I'm baffled why everyone can't just enjoy their freedom instead of breaking into these weird factions of "ban this aspect" vs "ban some other thing". Less is most certainly not more, so maybe quit trying to actively winnow the possibilities and opportunities for other people. This is a great format as-is, nothing broken, nothing to fix.
Anyway, just popped in to approve of the stellar status quo and I eagerly await yet another relatively hands-off B&R announcement in the coming weeks. -
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cryogen posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer BanlistBuffsam, you need to calm the heck down.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
Quote from GloriousGoose »Gentle reminder that fast mana needs to be banned.
Played three games at my new store last night with Erebos against Maelstrom Wanderer and Yisan.
Game 1: Maelstrom Wanderer opened with Forest, Mana Crypt, Farseek on turn 1 followed by Explosive Vegetation on turn 2. He won that game.
Game 2: Yisan opened with Forest, Mana Crypt, Yisan on turn 1. He won that game.
Game 3: I opened with Swamp, Sol Ring, Coldsteel Heart on turn 1 followed by a turn 2 Swamp, Thought Vessel, and Erebos. I won that game.
The only thing memorable about these games is that fast mana was the deciding factor in who won the game. Well, I guess the Maelstrom Wanderer player giving me ***** for not doing much in games 1 and 2 being utterly dominated by me in game 3 was satisfying, but that's neither here nor there.
And? Then what happened? What exactly did they do with that mana? How long did it take them to win? In my experience, for every anecdotal game like this there are ones where the end is "and that player lost". Hell, one of my games against Sheldon at sgccon were a player opens with Sol ring into smothering tithe, and me sol ring into smothering tithe and exploding veggies. We both lost that game. -
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Hermes_ posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer BanlistCan I have worldfire unbanned...I'd totally use it fairly....I promise *shifty eyes*Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum -
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LouCypher posted a message on Crazy Plays in EDH.Here's an epic fail for you. Angus MacKenzie player is after me (on Chandra) and he plays Approach of the Second Sun. The other two players who are on Karametra, God of the Harvest Enchantress and Karador, Ghost Chieftain Astral Slide spend a LOT of time doing exactly nothing as those decks are prone to do, and then my turn rolls around. I do some stuff, land two Chandras, get mana from them and use them to fuel a Reforge the Soul.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Angus took his turn and just played Approach again.
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Okay, this is my last finished deck that I have. I imagine this will get the most suggestions for improvements, seeing as there are more than a few Sisay decks here in this list, and mentioned elsewhere, not to mention the combo threads scattered all over. Nonetheless, this is one deck that scares more than a few people after the first few legends drop(surprise, surprise), so I must be doing something right.
EDIT:
Am starting(with this list) to update my decklist with each card's CMC for quick reference. Mana curve has been stated to be a problem, so it would be nice to have a visual confirmation/denial of such things.Pretty sure I've fixed the mana curve problem. Being able to have more legendary lands to tutor with Sisay helps, and since Kamahl's oath and the Urza-laser can also be tutored with Sisay, the reveal clause often helps with some political wheeling and dealing(positive and negative, of course).4 Captain Sisay
Creatures(28)
2 Emmara, Soul of the Accord
5 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
10 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
11 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Commander Eesha
3 Elvish Archdruid
3 Lieutenant Kirtar
3 Eternal Witness
2 Saffi Eriksdotter
6 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
7 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Elvish Piper
4 Yeva, Nature's Herald
4 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
5 Sigarda, Host of Herons
6 Sun Titan
3 Reki, the History of Kamigawa
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Priest of Titania
3 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
3 Selvala, Explorer Returned
6 Dragonlord Dromoka
3 Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist
6 Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
7 Bruna, the Fading Light
4 Gisela, the Broken Blade
3 Danitha Capashen, Paragon
4 Baird, Steward of Argive
5 Karametra, God of Harvests
3 Growing Rites of Itlimoc
4 Bear Umbra
5 Asceticism
5 Mirari's Wake
2 Darksteel Mutation
2 Quest for Renewal
4 Defense of the Heart
4 Leyline of Sanctity
5 Privileged Position
Spells(8)
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Krosan Grip
7 Tooth and Nail
3 Beast Within
6 Austere Command
2 Kamahl's Druidic Vow
3 Eldritch Evolution
5 Urza's Ruinous Blast
Artifacts(15)
0 Mox Amber
1 Sol Ring
3 Oketra's Monument
3 Rhonas's Monument
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Hammer of Nazahn
2 Swiftfoot Boots
3 Helm of Kaldra
4 Sword of Kaldra
4 Shield of Kaldra
3 Champion's Helm
3 Bow of Nylea
2 Sword of the Animist
2 Throne of the God-Pharaoh
6 The Immortal Sun
1 Temple of the False God
1 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple Garden
1 Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Graypelt Refuge
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Krosan Verge
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Canopy Vista
1 Dark Depths
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Pendelhaven
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
5 Forest
10 Plains
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Like many though, I saw this coming, and it was overdue. I'd been looking for a good reason to put Karametra, God of Harvests into my Sisay deck, and this is the perfect reason.
It was stupid...I couldn't HELP but go off when PE was on the field, and I didn't need too many people/rocks on the board. Sel 2.0, Mox Amber(in hand), Sisay, Priest of Titania or Elvish Archdruid, and bam...suddenly I had Laverne and Shirley and you have no lands.
Maybe now I can enjoy my Sisay deck again instead of being bored.
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I have 29 in my decklist, and it works out pretty well. The expensive vampires like Butcher of Malakir and others in the 6+ CMC should be pitched for guys like Viscera Seer and even Gatekeeper of Malakir, or Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle. That said, I do believe I could benefit a bit more from MORE vampires. Given that I doubt you have or will get some of the cards I have in my decklist, a viable run might be to start with 30 and go from there.
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It certainly won't help the deck to interact if they're already color screwed. Not everyone has a bomb hand from the start, but they keep a so-so hand because they have a fetch land to get that color. Oops, Ashiok says **** that, so have fun 'interacting' until you get the color you need. It may not be the definition you're referencing, but I see what toc is getting at, and it's a valid point. There's also the strategy(such as it is), of just getting the shuffle...but again, Ashiok doesn't like that, so I hope you're confident in how your deck was shuffled to start, because you're not doing anything with it.
On a side point, everybody's kind of fixated on Ashiok(which is legit...I see trouble ahead if that got to be a commander), but now we have Narset 3.0, which is at LEAST Leo 0.5. If Leovold was banned because it was oppressive, how would Narset be any better(I will find it interesting to see if she stays legal even in the 99, personally)?
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I used this EXTENSIVELY back when I played in Fallen Empires; I felt it was so important to know what my opponent had. Obviously, it still is, but I'm not so fixated on that.
To that end, I too would have to disagree with Dirk's assessment. Telepathy was a centerpiece in my early Wrexial build(I don't know why...I think I just liked forcing everyone to 'bare it all', lol). I've seen a lot of people since play it as well. My takeaway(and obviously Dirk's mileage has varied) has been that the person who plays Telepathy better win fast, or get hated out fast. Sure, the table will gang up on someone trying to combo, and shenanigans have to be more stealth shenanigan-y, but by and large, people like keeping secrets, and Telepathy rubs people that I've interacted with the wrong way. It's only human.
Now, glasses have a bonus in that YOU are holding all the cards. Sure, it only works on one guy at a time, but let us remember that EDH is a social format, yes? A sudden Tim Taylor "Uh-oh...!" provides some amusing distraction and redirection...all without you having to play suit.
It's asymmetrical, but not unfairly so in the eyes of your opponents. Though I admit I'm biased...I still have a playset, in fact. I should put one into one of my decks just for crits and giggles.
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First suggestion is that you might want to post your decklist here. I handle it just fine, but some people are a bit picky about not having the decklist right in front of them on this site. [deck,][/deck,](without the periods)is how you do it; then just enter each card's name with a number(most people use 1).
As you can see in my signature, I stretched a bit further, and made a Grixis zombies deck, as opposed to Dimir. Not saying one's better than the other, but it may play into how heavily you want to take my suggestions. So, here are some of the missing pieces(those without price tags following are less than a couple of dollars):
Relentless Dead($8) - Arguably the best cheap, recurrable zombie you could ever ask for. If you've got the oodles of mana(and I imagine Cabal Coffers will do it for you), you can save your whole army from a boardwipe.(EDIT: I'm confused...do you have Relentless in your deck already, or is it one you're attempting to acquire yet?).
Withered Wretch - I am not a huge fan of mill(GY decks abound, but your meta may vary), BUT...if you intend to stay on that route, it never hurts to have a way to take out the choicest pieces that you can't steal for yourself. On that topic...
Coffin Queen{$6) - She's been errata'd as a zombie, so she fits VERY nicely into your plan. She also serves as a political tool, in various ways.
Fleshbag Marauder - Sure, he's usually a one-and-done guy for the ETB trigger, but if you recur him, he gets REALLY nasty, really fast.
Unbreathing Horde - More useful if your meta is damage dependent, rather than removal heavy. He can also get pretty stupid fast, and without removal, he can be hard to get through.
Vengeful Dead - Punish them for killing your zombies. Every little poke helps.
Havengul Lich - Another meta dependent guy, but he's oh-so-fabulous most times. Add in that the zombies you already have(plus some of the zombies I'm suggesting) have activated abilities, and it will rarely be a bad draw.
Lord of the Undead($13.50) - Another Unholy Grotto(only straight to your hand) is never a bad thing. Add in the anthem, and it's a must have. That price tag, though...
Suggested miscellaneous:
Grave Pact($15) - Punish people even more when you cast Fleshbag Marauder.
Dictate of Erebos($11) - Arguably better than Gravepact because of flash, but if you can, why not run both?
Sudden Spoiling($3) - Few things are more hilarious than having someone swing their army into your zombies only to watch them turn into fresh meat for your rotted friends. Has saved me from lethal damage more than a few times as well.
Army of the Damned - The cost is prohibitive at first glance, I admit that. But more zombies is still more zombies, and being able to flashback it is another plus. Give it a shot at least.
Urza's Incubator($10) - Another way to reduce zombie costs, aside from Warchief. This and the Horn can be expensive though...
Herald's Horn($14) - See above.
Aetherworks Marvel - Saccing all those zombies should have an extra benefit, I would think. This is an underrated card for those types of decks, I think.
Westvale Abbey($5) - Again, saccing zombies should benefit you in as many ways possible. There's also some flavorful cohesion in having zombies sacrificed to summon a demon, don't you think?
That's just a few of the ideas I have, maybe something will tickle your fancy.