MTG Salvation

I can agree with the points made here, but forcing the countered player to pay the extra mana is still a big win, and could be the difference between having them machine gun their combo or fart out one more little cantrip. And being unable to really bait it out for your advantage is also points in its favor as well...

Still, it's not nearly as powerful as the hard counters, and almost necessitates a ramped pool to draw from in order to make it good...Simic decks?

Additionally, I can't resist posting the rough draft art for Power Sink...(second panel)

...So, I usually don't pay much attention to artwork in these threads. But now that everyone has pointed out the bees shooting from the dog's mouth, I only have one thing to say:

"The PAIN!"

Anyway, I can't say I'm too impressed from a casual perspective. The end payoff isn't that great, and a 2/2 for 4 CMC gives me the 'bleahs' too.

I think the reason we(as a community) and WotC(for the most part) want/try to keep things simple/non-erratad can be summed up in one word:

Banding.

Quote from kamikaziechameleon »

So I had a thought about Wizards and their role in commander. Primarily how they have the power to do some card rulings as fan service that would not hurt the game a ounce but would unify it allot. Simple stuff like these next two ideas:

#1 Rule Gisela, the Broken Blade and bruna the fading light partner commanders. Mono white is horrible but this would be allot of fun to see and I think its something allot of house rules allow but yet wizards has stayed mum on


#2 Rule Genju of the Realm a viable commander. He's a great fun 5 color option who is not terrible powerful next to someone like Scion. Seriously they just need to do this. Its again an unofficial commander.

#3 Rule Budoka Gardener, should be a commander common now! Just rule it!



I'm sure there are another set of Legendary creatures who are in so me what disqualified from being "Commanders" but are basically allowed anywhere they are in a deck to be played. They aren't OP in any way, not even really competitive for their colors... but they are allot of fun and since this format is about fun and being memorable I think before wizards does goofy stuff like make planeswalkers into commanders they should fix these and other cards I'm not yet aware of.

I get where you're coming from on this by and large, but the RC's pretty much laid out the blanket ruling that, in short, says, "Only legendary CREATURES can be commanders". Even after the change to planeswalkers in Ixalan(making them also legendary, instead of subject to their own 'uniqueness' rule) hasn't changed this train of thought, aside from the walkers that came in leading specific commander decks. This, among other things, is specifically what house rules exist for, not for an official ruling to determine.

Gisela 2.0 and Bruna 2.0 being partners is a classic house rules example; if a group thinks it's cool, go for it. Why would you need a ruling from Wizards? But at the same time, they are also quite good separated from each other, perhaps even better. Mono-white is far from 'horrible', as you state. In fact, there isn't a single color that is 'horrible' in this format, mono or otherwise. Weaker than the others, maybe...but white still stands tall in that regard too.

Genju of the Realm is interesting, and I just pulled a search up on the Multiplayer Decklist forum that had seven listings for decks lead by him. If you feel he's fun(and it appears he is to a lot of people), house rule him in.

Same for the gardener.

As far as Wizards 'fixing' cards, the only fixing we can legitimately expect them to stay on top of is erratas, and that's mostly for the other more profitable formats(i.e., everything BUT Commander. Let's be honest, we make them money, but not nearly as much as the others do.). Making Commander 'fun and memorable' is really up to us...search this section, and you'll see a thread called Crazy EDH Plays for a prime example.

BTW, let me point out one more thing: there's a legendary creature called Mishra, Artificer Prodigy. Looks pretty useless for EDH, right? Akin to Sphinx of the Chimes? Check deck listings for him...these decks are IN-SANE, and I'm sure that when people play them, they are VERY fun and memorable(maybe not so much to the opponents). It's all about what you and your group can imagine, friend. Talk to them, and see what fun you can come up with.

Dredging this up, because of what happened to me today. It was so long term in planning that even the Chinese would have been impressed(no offense to any Chinese here):

Playing against Edgar Markov, Mathas, Fiend Seeker and The Scarab God with Mayael the Anima. I've been drawing all the s*** luck(I was at two mana until T6...>.< ), so I'm hanging on as best I can. It certainly doesn't help the board when a wrath gives the Edgar player a bunch of life and cuts the rest of us down to size with his Blood Artist and Cliffhaven Vampire combo.

Anyway, I've been tossing stuff in the graveyard, and the Scarab player gets his general out. He starts looking at graveyards, and notices the two creatures I've tossed into mine: Craterhoof Behemoth and Xenagod. He drools, does some quick calculations, animates those two with Scarab, swings with near everyone at the Edgar player for lethal, and then swings with the Scarab God at me, also for lethal unless I block.

I then play Deflecting Palm on his 17/17 attacker. He was at 16 life. The crestfallen look on his face had the store in stitches, and he even admitted that he was only mad at that play because he so admired it. On top of that, in true Fist of the North Star fashion, I even said, "Omae wa mou shindeiru"(You are already dead).

I ended up losing to the Mathas player within a couple of rounds, but we talked about my play in various stages of admiration for the rest of the night.

Quote from illakunsaa »

I don't really see a problem with allowing planeswalkers as commanders.

Walkers see almost no play because they are pretty bad. Many are restricted in colors so wouldn't be able to do one card combos like the catlady combo from standard.

• Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
  
• Garruk Wildspeaker
  
• Garruk, Caller of Beasts
  
• Garruk, Primal Hunter
  
• Nissa, Genesis Mage
  
• Nissa, Vital Force
  
• Garruk, Apex Predator
  
• Vraska the Unseen
  
• Samut, the Tested
  
• Sarkhan Vol
  
• Xenagos, the Reveler
  
• Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
  
• Kiora, Master of the Depths
  
• Nissa, Steward of Elements
  
• Tamiyo, Field Researcher
  
• Sarkhan Unbroken

• Chandra Ablaze
  
• Chandra Nalaar
  
• Chandra, Flamecaller
  
• Chandra, Pyrogenius
  
• Chandra, Pyromaster
  
• Chandra, Roaring Flame
  
• Chandra, the Firebrand
  
• Chandra, Torch of Defiance
  
• Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
  
• Koth of the Hammer
  

Your bolded comment(bold mine) is MUCH more wrong than right. What I'm assuming you meant to say is "Depending on the deck, planeswalkers can be more bad than good." For instance, consider Captain Sisay. Given the recent rules change, she just got a huge boost in power, and one would be foolish not to at least consider several planeswalkers in a deck helmed by her.

I grant you that PWs don't last long in an EDH game(guess the average lifespan of my Money Jace in my Niv deck? lol), but they often don't need to. Having the ability to cast, and then(assuming no counter) use a game changing ability(which doesn't necessarily need to be an ultimate) can be particularly nasty. Creatures have, on average, one round before they can start changing the game thanks to summoning sickness. Of course there are ways around that, but PWs have no such limitations. Also, let's consider blinking...Banishing Light for example. Sure, this type of combo may go off and be very rare now, but having one piece always available from the CZ? Big changer there...

Quote from Groverover »

There are only a handful of planeswalkers that I feel would need attention in the command zone, mainly Ugin and Sorin, but besides those, I see no downside to any others mentioned. Using Karn to exile a permanent for 7 mana in a colorless deck isn't new, and sure it is repeatable but colorless can't respond as well to attacks as a colored deck with Karn thrown in could for example, then you are stuck paying 9, 11, etc. just to exile a permanent. I don't see a problem with that. Same goes for Garruk, there is a UG commander that does the same thing for 1 mana more on ETB, and it is easier to flicker a creature than a planeswalker.

The main thing is, this opens up plenty of innovative decks that might not have been out there before. If you want to run a UB commander centered around artifacts, you are stuck with Silas Renn (which isn't terrible by any means, but definitely not the best) when you could be running any of the UB Tezz's and get to feel a side that in UB is under represented in EDH IMO. Where is the RW tempo-based control style general in EDH? Would making Ajani Vengeant fill that niche? Play UW with Narset, or Bant with Tamiyo? RB artifacts-matter in Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast?


I guess my main point is that it would open up more strategies in EDH that aren't currently available or viable. I can see the points about certain Planeswalkers being problems, but you couldn't play with Ugin in the command zone before, I don't think giving access to all the other Planeswalkers without Ugin or Sorin would be that much of an issue. I may talk with my playgroup and see if maybe we can take down some data and build proxy decks around some planeswalkers and see how strong they would feel in a normal game of EDH (barring Doubling Season since if this change happens it might have to be banned in EDH, but given that it usually only breaks planeswalkers and there are quite a couple of replacements in EDH for it, I don't think it would cause too much outcry) and see where that gets me.

I hear variations on your bolded comment a lot, but I never see examples. Could you provide any evidence? I think you'd be surprised at what strategies ARE viable even w/o planeswalker commandership.

It's also not uncommon to play a commander just for their colors and nothing else, which is its own level of satisfying: having someone prepare for one thing, only to get blindsided by another tactic, is an underutilized technique. Granted, it may require the use of tutors or draws, but that makes every victory all the more satisfying.

Quote from DirkGently »

Quote from TheC2 »

Broken- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. He comes down and just exiles most of the opponents' fields. That's all he be needed and having that sitting in the command zone, would not make for a healthy game.

Ugin is broken? How is he much worse than, say, Child of Alara? Child of alara only kills, not exiles, granted, and can't keep artifacts in play through the wipe, though neither can your opponents...of course you're only playing colorless stuff, but then you might have a hard time against cmc > 6-7....but child also has one teensy weensy advantage in that it gives you access to ALL FIVE COLORS. As compared to zero colors. Kind of a thing.

Don't get me wrong, I had a nasty CoA deck that everyone else hated, so it can definitely suck to play against constant boardwipes, but ugin's power level is no contest compared to a child list. And few people really complain about child in the broad scheme of things.

Realistically, compared to child, ugin sucks. compared to sidisi, liliana sucks. Compared to arcum, tezzeret sucks. There aren't really any pws off the top of my head that are really more problematic than an existing legend. Sorin doesn't really have an obvious analogue in a legend, but he's just not that great of a card except in pretty low-powered groups, so I doubt he'd be a major problem. He can only target one person, he's sitting in the command zone telegraphing his move, etc.

As for whether it'll actually happen, idk. I think it's less than a 50% chance, but it's possible. Could also become another variant (which it sort of already is).

Child also has the disadvantage in needing to hit the GY; which requires more cards to interact in getting it BACK from the GY to do the boardwipe all over again. Ugin has no such limitation, and the mana problem? A minor speed bump in colorless decks.

Further, to address your secondary argument: I think you're looking more at PW ultimates in determining the 'suckage' of said walkers(apologies if I'm wrong). That is a misdirection, as many of the PWs have much more value in their other two/three abilities(which was noted with Ugin). As I said earlier, being able to use Jace's -1 ability exclusively is pretty powerful in certain decks, PARTICULARLY for blue. Getting ETB triggers from Garruk's beast tokens can also be powerful, especially since green LOVES more creatures.

Not every PW would warp the format(Tibalt won't even give the radar a blip), but repeated +/- abilities on demand could be something bad. Part of the balance of PWs(bad balance at times, admittedly) is using the +s and -s to keep using your preferred one. Take out the balance, and...*shrug*

Overall, I think this would be a bad idea; as was said, the PWs from Commander 2014 were DESIGNED for the format. Throwing in all the other planeswalkers 'just cuz' would do more harm than good. I'd be happy to be wrong...but I don't think I would be.

Comment Hidden

Jester's Cap and/or Sadistic Sacrament can help you pre-empt the combo as well.

Copy/pasta'd straight from the page...

Starting with this set, all planeswalkers past, present, and future will have the supertype legendary. They will also be subject to the "legend rule." The "planeswalker uniqueness rule" is going away. What does this mean? In short, everything that's true about legendary permanents will now be true about legendary planeswalkers. Also note that this does not mean legendary planeswalkers can be your Commander unless an ability says so.

Under the new rules, if a player controls more than one legendary planeswalker with the same name, that player chooses one and puts the other into their owner's graveyard. This means that if you control Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and cast Jace, Cunning Castaway, both Jaces can exist under your control.

So, no more new planeswalker commanders, but there might be some beastly past/future iteration combos.

Quote from Kryptnyt »

Whoever assigned Coleridge flavor text to the cards in the first few sets of Magic is my hero.

I maintain that by and large, flavor text and artwork was much better in the early sets of M:TG. Exceptions abound, but opinions.

On topic with Plague Rats, have to echo the assessment that Relentless does it better. But we owe them the respect due a pathforger, nonetheless.

Quote from Carthage »

With the addition of all these new static effect planeswalkers I continue to be sad that they are not legal commanders.

The most iconic story figures in the game and you cannot build a deck around them legally in the most popular casual format.

I mean, there is another format where you can do that, and I was told repeatedly when it launched that it was going to be better than commander in part because you could run planeswalkers, and because it lacked the busted fast mana and tutors, but it seems that format isn't very popular for some reason.

Judging from this poll (and every time I see this discussed elsewhere) allowing planes walkers as commanders is pretty unpopular, so it doesn't follow that they should be allowed as commanders in the most popular casual format. I'd also question them being the most iconic characters. Certainly some of them are, but there are also plenty of legendary creatures that are just as iconic, and plenty of planeswalkers that elicit a "who?" from most players.

I love the "optimal number of limbs" part, because my immediate thought went to tree limbs. Then I realized, "Oh. Right. Simic."

T2 Sakura-Tribe Elder, end of turn cycle pop him and ramp. T3 Eternal Witness to grab him back and do it again. Nice simple ramp early. Not a big move, but kept a questionable hand on account of this and it paid off nicely.

Quote from ForgottenPlaneswalker »
Whether you love them or hate them or are just indifferent, you got to admit this is pretty much why this is happening.
This is 100% false. This discussion was being had before any PW had that line of text.

As well as this, it's the statement itself, not the existence of planeswalkers, that dictates legality for commander status. Whatever side of the debate you're on, currently the statement 'x can be your commander' is the only thing making walkers commander feasible, and they could stick that on anything - and that's a point against, not for. The fact that it got stuck on walkers is a small concession, yes, but it's also an indication that there's no indication of a blanket rule change. We can only assume the reasons why or why not that might be, but it's easy enough to extrapolate for our format. Most of it boils down to 'íf it ain't broke, why fix it?'and 'why create more problems for yourself than you need to?', with a healthy dose of 'there's no benefit to doing this'.

Trying out my new Teysa Karlov deck in multi-player for the first time last night, ended up saccing a Seraph of the Scales to Maw of the Obzedat with Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Teysa Karlov, Zulaport Cutthroat and Wayward Disciple on my board. Even took me by surprise just how much life-loss could ensue: 1 sac became 15 sacs, dishing out 120 life-loss and killing everyone, incidentally netting me 60 life-gain in the process. I know Aristocrats archetypes are nothing new, but it was just a crazy moment to see it all go off so spectacularly on its very first outing. My only lands were 3 swamps in the entire game too

Quote from IndigoAjani3 »

WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU EVEN ON ANYMORE, RAL ZAREK?!?!

His side.

"Why're y'all hittin' yerselves?" ~Aurelia

Quote from Onering »

Quote from Taleran »

I would agree with you if I felt your argument came in good faith, which is the post you are responding to right there.

Again, it's not a convenient argument so you look for ways to dismiss it. Talking about legendary lands was hyperbole, but people have definitely wanted to play interesting non legendary creatures, as well as non creature legendary spells before. What about Elbrus, the Binding Blade? What about the land that flips into a legendary demon? Neither can be your commander because they aren't legendary creatures, but they clearly represent legendary creatures. How about the kamigawa flip legends that start off as non legendary creatures?

I asked my playgroup years ago if I could try Genju of the Realm as my commander, and I've played against Nephilim decks. This is exactly what house rules are for. I would in no way ever want the RC to change the rules to mainstream these decks, just as I would never want to see the commander slot opened up to all planeswalkers.

I'm with Onering and toctheyounger77 here.

And I want to reiterate - Commander is about leading an army with a legendary creature, not a legendary whatever. No one takes arguments seriously that favor legalizing legendary lands, legendary enchantments, legendary artifacts, or legendary sorceries as a commander, and they shouldn't because these are really bad ideas. They are, in fact, equally as bad as legalizing legendary planeswalkers, which is why it makes such a great comparison and why you can't just dismiss it out of hand as a counterpoint.

Yes, somecards have extra text saying "this can be your commander." Yes, individual cards can trump normal rules. No, we shouldn't ever treat the exception as the rule.