I used Reincarnation to save my Omnath, Locus of Mana and all my stockpiled
It set off a big argument about the card, and a huge spike in cell-phone research as everyone tried looking it up at once.. lol
- ChazA4
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Member for 7 years, 3 months, and 20 days
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Sephon19 posted a message on Mana Burn?I haven't tried ruling it back and don't expect to. Excess mana is such a corner case, rare thing that the rule was truly superfluous most of the time, and was otherwise intrusive and annoying on top of the regular punishment that's mistapping. Very flavorful rule, but Magic is already unnecessarily complicated with too many strange corner functions. - and already very flavorful.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
(I started playing back when the rule was a thing btw.) -
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plushpenguin posted a message on Random Card of the Final Day: Maelstrom NexusThe goods you steal are usually disappointing.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
It's like all the pirates can steal are mystery boxes that they can never open until they are already out to sea. -
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cryogen posted a message on [SCD] Nettling ImpThis thread has been continuously in play for seven years without attacking. - DestroyedPosted in: Commander (EDH) -
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umtiger posted a message on Mana Burn?Posted in: Commander (EDH)Quote from Dunharrow »Quote from MRdown2urth »Hurts big mana lands and dorks if they don’t have a way to use all the mana immediately. “End the turn” cards have more oomph. People experiment with everything, so I was curious.
So let's say the mono-black deck doesn't have a good mana sink..... would mana burn change the game at all? Let's say they have 3 extra mana that is unused... that is only 3 damage.
I think it is super niche and was rightly taken out of Magic. It is all downside and barely impacts any games of magic, and when it does, it doesn't make a significant impact.
Somethings being all downside is an okay thing for a game to have. Not everything should be all upside. 3 damage a turn is a meaningful amount. It's losing a Mana Crypt flip.
I play both Gaea's Cradle and Mana Drain. Mana burn coming back would be a-okay with me. Players no float mana all the time and there's no downside/tactical/strategic reason behind doing it because it's always the optimal strategy since manaburn is not a rule anymore. -
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Lithl posted a message on Eldrazi DeckPosted in: Commander (EDH)
No, you could use it as generic mana. Mana from a Fellwar Stone could pay for part of the 8 in Kozilek, the Great Distortion's cost, but it could not be used to pay for either of the C. In a colorless deck, though, it should not be difficult to come up with CC, so that tiny limitation is mostly irrelevant. More relevant if you tried to use several "any color" mana sources (like Fellwar Stone) to cast a cheaper spell with C in its cost like Spatial Contortion, Warping Wail, or Matter Reshaper. You could not, for example, cast Warping Wail off a Fellwar Stone and a City of Brass. But you could cast Warping Wail with Fellwar Stone and a Wastes.Quote from Intelman94 »So I could take a colored mana from someone else and use it as colorless? -
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benjameenbear posted a message on Coalition VictoryReading these "Unban this [Single Card]" threads gives me great entertainment. The calvinball reference was especially enjoyed, OneRing, particularly since I just finished reading through the Calvin & Hobbes compendium that my brother has. The simplicities of childhood are so awesomely captured in those comics... Anyways, I digress.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
In order to actually contribute to this thread (somewhat), I will maintain that Coalition Victory deserves to stay banned for the general Commander community with easily accepted house un-bans. The largest and most compelling point for its staying banned is, in my opinion, the fact that it does win the game on resolution with no other supporting cards, thus leading to a negative emotional experience for the losers of the game where a Coalition Victory resolves. Having lands of each basic land type and a 5C commander are incidental to a 5C deck and thus does not dictate deck building concessions from its pilot. I've already elaborated on the importance of maintaining a positive emotional experience for your playgroup in the "Balance is balanced" thread (still respect that clickbait title), but I suppose it's worth reiterating here.
I'll spoiler those points here for others who decide to read through this thread and because it's not relevant to the discussion.
My observation about EDH is that people sit down with individual and unique 99 card amalgamations in order to actually sling cardboard and feel important. Very often, their deck and the way they've constructed it is a reflection of who they are and how they approach the game, and they want to express that to others as quickly as possible. EDH is a way that they can do this, with a genius high-fantasy slant that invigorates and captures the imagination. I believe that Balance inhibits this most egregiously of any Magic card, in the context of EDH. In order to most effectively convey this personalized approach to EDH, a player needs to follow the rules of MTG as a game and cast spells that allow this type of self-expression. They can only do this by drawing cards and having mana sources to cast those cards. When Balance occurs, I think that it hits too many different cards in too many zones that would normally facilitate this kind of self-expression and therefore would lead to very emotionally damaging experience. A player can easily feel like they have nothing to do BUT lose when they've just lost 2 lands, 3 creatures, AND 3 cards from their hand via Balance resolving. This will inevitably have negative political repercussions, both within the game itself as well as outside of the game, because a player will remember who made them feel so much pain and either refuse to play with that person or vindicate their pain by exclusively targeting that individual in-game. While there is a growing opportunity present in this kind of pain, most people DON'T want to experience that type of pain. EDH is meant to be an avenue of self-expression in a creative way supported by visually distinctive pieces of cardboard that spark the imagination in a formalized and structured way. In general, Stax effects (like Balance and Cataclysm) are unwelcome in most groups for this particular reason. Stax effects actively hinder or slow down a player from actualizing this kind of self-expression.
The final nail in the coffin, in my mind, is that it only costs 2 CMC. That means that it is easily castable on a general basis and can be taken advantage of by the player deploying BAlance fairly early within a game. How I interpret this is that a savvy deck builder can and WILL build their deck to take advantage of Balance, and other attendant Stax effects (do note I use the term Stax pretty liberally), better than their opponents; that's just good deckbuilding. What inevitably happens in execution is that this player was able to develop an advantageous board presence that takes advantage Balance but punishes the rest of the table for NOT building around Balance. And that's probably exactly how it comes across, on an emotional level: punishment. This allows only a single player to actualize their self-expression and achieve that feeling of self-importance that we all crave as human beings at the cost of the other players' ability to self-express. And the social contract that surrounds EDH finds this type of behavior to be MASSIVELY undesirable because, in short, it just isn't fair/just. I don't think that it would be unreasonable to see this kind of effect occur on T3 or T4 of a cEDH game by a Zur player where they can easily AND consistently get Necropotence into play and overcome the massive loss of cards that occurs when Balance resolves, as a brief thought experiment
First, I do want to concede that it's weak to instant speed removal/interaction and is particularly reliant on having a 5C creature in play, which opens up a pretty glaring weakness to its efficacy. Good decks play spot removal and interaction, and so should have the ability somewhere in their deck to prevent Coalition Victory from actually firing off. I'll also concede that, at an 8 mana casting cost, you've probably hit a stage in the game where removal options have been exhausted and/or interaction is minimal because people are tapping out to deploy their threats, be those combo pieces or sweet, sweet haymaking creatures.
But the point is this: The RC, and people generally, want to ensure that sitting down for a game of Commander is enjoyable for everyone. I maintain that people love this game because it's an avenue of self-expression. Some people want to optimize their decks and their gameplay to the highest level possible, and build their decks accordingly (cEDH decks). Some people want to be able to have huge board states, with sweet creatures and enchantments that are stupidly powerful and/or imagination invoking (seriously, who doesn't like the idea of summoning the Soul of the World to fight on your behalf? Crazy people). Some people play Commander strictly FOR the table talk and social interactions that a game of Magic facilitates (group-hug or strong, true-control decks like Phelddagrif). However you play, you confine/limit your ability to this self-expression through the deployment of gorgeously printed/colored cardboard within a specific rules structure. And generally speaking, the more cardboard you can sling, the happier the experience is for you. When taken in multi-player, that means that there should be a greater window to sling more cardboard for all of the players present in that game.
Cards that abruptly cease the ability of each player to maximize the amount of cards they can play are seriously suspect. Coalition Victory DOES abruptly win the game upon resolution (since you're probably not casting it UNLESS you have all the conditions met and reasonably protected) and the opportunity cost of being able to use it as a 1 card win condition are so minimal in a 5C deck. Laboratory Maniac does the win the game upon resolution of a SUBSEQUENT trigger. Doomsday becomes a super tutor that wins the game only upon SUBSEQUENT cards/triggers. Mortal Combat wins the game on a SUBSEQUENT trigger. Door to Nothingness causes a player to lose on a SUBSEQUENT activation and targets only a single player. Simic Ascendancy requires a SUBSEQUENT trigger to win. I hope the point is clear. While in practice, this point is often moot since the setup of resolving any of these I-Win cards has probably occurred, it is a technical difference that many of the other I-Win cards also follow. To reference an example recently used in this thread, Enter the Infinite does functionally draw your deck, but doesn't actually say 'You Win The Game' anywhere in its text. The fact that there is another opportunity to interact is important.
Coalition Victory doesn't provide this opportunity. The game ends when it resolves, regardless of what every other player was building towards and regardless of what cards and resources they've previously played. The point that Toc brings up is totally valid, in this context, since the feel-bad that he experienced is antithetical to what Commander was designed to be.
This sudden end towards self-expression and the playing of the game is what I think causes the "feel bads" that are often referenced. Whatever their motives, they've chosen MTG as their preferred avenue of self-expression. Anything that directly and negatively impacts this ability is worthy of being banned by the RC, in my opinion. I would probably be in favor of extending the banlist by several cards personally, based on this criteria, but that's a separate discussion.
TL;dr: Coalition Victory's successful resolution ends the game abruptly and causes a negative emotional effect on the other players that is contrary to the philosophy/spirit of EDH.
Hope this novel makes sense! -
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Sheldon posted a message on Coalition VictoryWe're not really worried that Coalition Victory is going to wreck the format, since it's limited to five colors. It's just not the kind of experience we want to promote. "Win the game" cards are inherently risky for the format; fortunately, most of them make you jump through lots of hoops to get there. Waiting a turn cycle for Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance makes them viable (if still not completely desirable). If we were evaluating cards on the list for the safest to come off, it'd be in the top 5, for sure.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
One of the reasons that we're slow to pulling the trigger on putting borderline cards onto the banned list is that once they're there, we feel that they have a heavier burden of proof to take off--meaning cards already on the list are evaluated to a small measure differently than ones already on. -
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cryogen posted a message on Coalition VictoryThread unlocked. Please remain civil, and remember to attack an argument, not a person.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum -
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Onering posted a message on Coalition VictoryPosted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from ChazA4 »Dirk, you may hate the argument, but guess what? It's still a valid argument. And while I'm not a fan of it either, I can see the validity of it.
You're absolutely right; most removal(land or creature) operates at instant speed, and ideally, one would wait until the casting of CV to fully neuter the potential threat. But surprisingly(not really), casual tables are FULL of sub-optimal plays. CV will likely exacerbate the problem of those sub-optimal plays, because people will primarily have 'gotta stop CV' on their mind. It is possible(even likely) that the problem will correct its course after a while as more people learn the right timing, but that's not a ship I'd want to be on in the meantime.
Again, you assume that people are going to be completely open and honest about what's in their deck('they can just say they're not running CV), but not everyone will. The dishonesty of those few will leave a foul taste in the mouth of those who got snookered, leading to them not even caring if the next BUGRW guy does or does NOT have Coalition Victory. They've been fooled once, and d***ed if they'll be fooled again, you're going down! Yeah, there's generally no reason to conceal your deck because it's just a casual game, but by and large, no one cares: they like to keep surprises, fun or not.
CV, overall, would be poison for the format because we're human. It'd be nice to play in a format where everyone was open about what's in their deck, played degenerate cards fairly, and there was no ban list(imperfect as it is), but here we are. You make points about EtI(I use T&N, so I'm biased on that), but those cards need more setup beyond 'playing the game'.
And that's all I'm going to say, because you're not pushing for an unban like others.
This. There are some real douche canoes out there who will just straight up like about their deck. I played an online match with a Maralen player who announced from the start that he wasn't running combo. He complained when someone removed Maralen the first time that he wasn't running combo and it was just a casual hug deck. He finally convinced the table to let Maralen stick. He immediately searched up a combo. When the table predictably got mad, he went into full "lol I tricked you with my superior intellect" mode. In a playgroup, this won't happen, but in pickup games and online you sort of have to expect people to lie, and you will be burned when you don't. Maralen simply does not get to live for me anymore. For a 5 color commander with CV legal I personally would hold back removal for it, but I see plenty of people willing to play prevent with commanders that have a reputation and I have no doubt 5 color commanders would fit that for a lot of people. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
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Can't go wrong with the classic, "Oooh, shiny!".
McCheaty(cheating creatures[often big ones] into play at a fraction of their CMC) = Because paying full CMC for full pain is silly.
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Marsh Viper for Putrefax. If you insist on keeping Putrid, abuse the H*** out of him with a Mimic Vat.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast is a good combo with Phyrexian Hydra. Since Phydra can't get -1/-1 counters from damage...;) Perhaps replace Viridian Corrupter with her. This, however, is obviously more of a 'funsie' combo.
If you decide Mimic Vat is for you, I would drop Song of the Dryads. Your infect will be a considerable enough threat against big beats already.
In reference to your beauty, I would suggest that the point being made is you should focus your damage towards one or the other damage. Spreading it amongst infect AND regular damage gives your opponents more time to get their game online and stop yours. Losing him, I would suggest gives you a good slot for either Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots.
Lands concern me in your decklist. My count on your list is 35, and while you are running mana dorks and rocks, I'm not sure I'd say it's enough, even with the decent mana curve. How often do you find yourself sputtering in the game(unable to get started)?
One more thing to consider would be Grafted Exoskeleton, particularly for the creatures that don't have infect. Not sure what you should drop for that, though.
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Umbra Mystic - getting even more value out of your non-totem armor enchantments is fun, especially if you're spreading them around on creatures.
Aura Gnarlid - whether they're on him or not, he will get FRIGHTENING!
Kor Spiritdancer - little more specific for the beastiness, but something to keep in mind perhaps.
Hunting Grounds - free creatures? Free creatures.
Sigarda, Heron's Grace - Keep your enchantress' on the board.
Guardian of the Gateless - If you put most enchantments/auras on one card, this might be the girl to do it to.
EDIT: Forgot about two other options, one of which isn't so budget, but worth considering.
Bear Umbra - untapping your lands is fun for your second main phase. Or you could go with...
Sword of Feast and Famine - this is not budget, just to warn you. However, it's another option for untapping your lands for a great second main, though you have to HIT a player with this one.
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Konda's Banner is something I've been told about often, and I keep trying to look for it...I may have to suck it up and finally order it online. I did NOT know about the throne however, so that may be something else to look at as well.
Hero's Blade is, as you said, more thematic than anything else. Not long ago, I saw someone post a Kari Zev deck, and someone suggested the blade for the deck...if only to have this come up...;)
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1. Polukranos + Bow of Nylea. Attack with 'kranos, then make him monstrous as much as you want/can. Great boardsweeper, as long as your opponent isn't running indestructibles. Best part is, the bow won't be a waste at any other time either.
2. I would urge you to take another look at Skysovereign Being able to keep the faster planeswalkers in check, regardless of pillow forts, can be very useful and life-saving. Add in the cheap crew cost, and while it may STILL not fit in there, it's far from the disaster you seemed to hint at.
3. Selvala, Explorer Returned. She can be a VERY useful library thinner/mana dork/life gainer. A lot of people build decks around her, but she's VERY solid even as one of the 99.
Solid setup regardless!
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Looks like you'd still get it back. One of the rulings on The Gatherer says:
"A permanent exiled by the first ability will return to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next end step even if you no longer control Venser at that time."
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Bebop: "My man!"
My playgroup isn't THAT huge, so I only ever got this to go off once in the way you describe. My opponent had a Stifle/Trickbind effect in hand, but he was laughing as he let it go off about 40 times before conceding, saying it was the most awesome play he'd ever seen.
Now you've got me debating on whether I should swap out Diluvian in my Niv 1.0 deck or not...
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Known in one of my groups as "Did ya pay 1 for that?"
I too seem to lack any specific cards that I tire of seeing. I guess it would be Karado, Ghost Chieftain, because I know I'll be wasting a ton of burn spells on that thing, and it'll be giving me the one-finger salute as it keeps coming back to the battlefield real cheap. Oloro, Ageless Ascetic is another guy, except you can't do spit about him if he stays in the command zone.