Commit // Memory seems like a worse card on both turns than all of our other options. The only real plus side is that it's like two cards in one. The first part is very over priced just to delay a card and the aftermath costs three more than we want it to.
I agree/disagree. I agree that Memory costs quite a bit...I can count on one hand the number of times I've cast that side. But it's there, and since this isn't G or B, any kind of graveyard recursion(ESPECIALLY since we're in RU) strikes me as pretty important, particularly because Niv 3.0 needs them spells coming. It might help if you think of Memory as an 'emergency restock', though in a properly tuned Izzet deck, this should never be a concern.
Commit, I believe your point is wrong, however. It has mostly the same ability as Venser, Shaper Savant(for the same, but less restrictive CMC, I might add), and while he's good because he can be blinked repeatedly, that doesn't make Commit any less relevant. Its usefulness DOES depend on the meta(keeping spells on track, watching out for that tree, OOOH!), but I've rarely been unhappy with it. In a crazy, combo-centric game where everything is trying to go off 'just so', I've seen it be the monkey wrench that throws the rhythm of everything off. The same COULD be said of most counters yes, but Commit has, in my experience, deflated combo players just a bit more. Putting it second from the top is akin to feeling like Damocles, no doubt, but that too plays to your advantage.
I maintain that it's worthwhile in 'spelldraw' decks of this sort...you may never cast one side or the other, but they are there if you need them. And I'm sure this is FAR from the only split card that is guilty of this(only one side is really relevant in my deck), either.
EDIT: Got so focused on the Commit // Memory discussion, I forgot to include this.
I don't know how vicious you intend to be on your opponents, but it occurs to me that most troublesome lands are utility lands. If you don't have it in your deck already, you may want to consider Blood Sun, as a way of slowing them down until you get Blood Moon.
This might be useful in Edgar Markov decks, particularly cheap vampires. Scoop up your vampires, and put a bunch more tokens down. Dig for answers if you need them.
I would have to say that I would be completely okay with mana burn coming back as well. I'm one of the old guard(since Fallen Empires), so I remember the turns where you had excess mana, and had to really stop and think, "Do I want to cast this creature and take some burn, or do I wait until next turn to cast him with no downside?". I continue to feel that mana burn added a nice 'upside' to the game, and it is lesser with burn's removal.
Untiger is not wrong in his assessment either; everyone floats mana, not just because it fits into their plan, but BECAUSE there's no downside. I dunno, it just rubs me the wrong way.
...Mindslaver, Sorin Markov and Emrakul, the Promised End would give new ways to kill your opponents, though. There is that, I admit.
Fellwar Stone becomes tapped, and you have opponents that can produce UBG via their lands. What Fellwar does is produce THAT mana(one only of UBG), and that can then be used in whatever spell you have(save for colorless manaC).
Now, if you had Fellwar out, and your entire pod(or last opponent) only had Wastes or Strip Mine or theUrza-tron out, then yes...it could not produce that colorless mana.
Dirk, you may hate the argument, but guess what? It's still a valid argument. And while I'm not a fan of it either, I can see the validity of it.
You're absolutely right; most removal(land or creature) operates at instant speed, and ideally, one would wait until the casting of CV to fully neuter the potential threat. But surprisingly(not really), casual tables are FULL of sub-optimal plays. CV will likely exacerbate the problem of those sub-optimal plays, because people will primarily have 'gotta stop CV' on their mind. It is possible(even likely) that the problem will correct its course after a while as more people learn the right timing, but that's not a ship I'd want to be on in the meantime.
Again, you assume that people are going to be completely open and honest about what's in their deck('they can just say they're not running CV), but not everyone will. The dishonesty of those few will leave a foul taste in the mouth of those who got snookered, leading to them not even caring if the next BUGRW guy does or does NOT have Coalition Victory. They've been fooled once, and d***ed if they'll be fooled again, you're going down! Yeah, there's generally no reason to conceal your deck because it's just a casual game, but by and large, no one cares: they like to keep surprises, fun or not.
CV, overall, would be poison for the format because we're human. It'd be nice to play in a format where everyone was open about what's in their deck, played degenerate cards fairly, and there was no ban list(imperfect as it is), but here we are. You make points about EtI(I use T&N, so I'm biased on that), but those cards need more setup beyond 'playing the game'.
And that's all I'm going to say, because you're not pushing for an unban like others.
I have always been a fan of Commit // Memory in any Izzet/draw decks, because of its versatility. Yes, you may lock yourself out of using Memory if you have Grafdigger's Cage in play, but the ability to deny any spell from resolving is pretty powerful. And if cage ISN'T on the battlefield, Parun gives you some love.
Are you thinking of another Firemind's Foresight combo? Turnabout, unless my eyes are worse than I thought, is a 4 CMC card, which means it can't be part of the combo(at least, not in the fashion you describe).
Except that Leo had an additional layer of protection around himself in that if he was targeted(with a removal spell, most likely), the controller got to draw a card; which, given the colors he's in, would most likely be an answer, which means your spell was all for naught. Notion Thief, while not much better, at least would die if you caught the controller with an empty hand. Admittedly, it's balanced out by its own keyword(flash), but I think the tipping point still lands in Leo's court. Thief needs someone playing a specific deck role; Leo flips you the bird 90% of the time just for running a normal aspect of many decks.
I have to admit, it took me a bit of digging to find out how this worked, but then I saw it in Ablaze's rulings...good to know. I may have to reacquire her for my Niv deck, in that case.
I used to run this quest in my Merieke deck(as it transitioned from Wrexial). Rarely got it to work(not enough Leviathans/Krakens/Octopi in my collection), but it was pretty awesome when it did work. I DID miss the second ability's 'EACH end step' clause back in the day, which now makes me encouraged to try again at it. Love this thread!
I can't believe you can see Balance being a problem in superfriends, but not in artifacts, enchantments, or(as was noted by one of our comrades) a (mostly/all) creatureless control decks. It's too efficient, too cheap, for what it does and does not do, end point. And if it's not errata'd to include those three card types, that's a problem for considering an unbanning of any sort, IMO. Again, it's not so much building around what it DOES, it's building around what it DOESN'T, which is ridiculously easy to do.
I would like to add that Magus of the Balance is a horrible comparison...not quite apples to oranges, more like Granny Smith apples to Crab Apples. Magus is a creature and it has to survive a full round(outside of additional support) to be near the same level of threat...and as you noted, even with those nerfs making it more 'fair', it's barely played. At WW, its predecessor doesn't have that problem...most everyone will want to play it, for gameplan or to yank the table down. That it looks at everybody is something that would hold it in check, but not well enough.
I'm sorry, but your petition to convince us that Balance is balanced is...well, very imbalanced.
I think you're too focused on what it DOES, as opposed to what it DOESN'T. Three things I notice missing in it's punishing text is planeswalkers, enchantments, and artifacts. Let's go over them one by one...
Planeswalkers - Now, I admit, planeswalkers aren't the best of cards to include in a deck, but superfriends is, and will likely always be, a thing. Balance plays into a lot of planeswalker abilities(a number of the Liliana's for the sacced creatures in GYs, a few Jaces for spells, perhaps more). Even Tibby works into it, as his discard ability helps you go into hand discard on your opponents. Superfriends can be egregious enough without a one-sided game reset...we've got Karn for that, thankyewverahmuch.
Artifacts - Okay, this can be a serious problem. Run the rocks, and no lands is a non-issue. I'm sure people would love to be mana-less, while the Balance player is running his Sol Ring through allthesignetsorkeyrunes. Add in that more than a few can animate themselves(as with the keyrunes)and/or prevent anything threatening from entering the board in time to stop said Balance player, and again...things get very 'undesirable game state' pretty fast.
Enchantments - This is another heavy hitter. Discarding an answer to a troublesome enchantment because of Balance, or lacking the mana to cast even a Krosan Grip in time is not a fun place to be. Gift of Immortality alone makes saccing creatures a non-issue, assuming it's put on the right one. False Demise gives you the biggest threat on the table. I would go on, but I think even my very basic point has been made without treading over the same ground as before.
I believe it is, as I said earlier, the combination of what Balance does PLUS what it doesn't that keeps it banned. If it were errata'd to include artifacts, enchantments AND planeswalkers, I imagine it would be treated as 'geddon...legal, but socially stigmatized. As is, while it does need to be built around, it's got enough flexibility FOR building that I am inclined to agree with the RC that it's better off banned.
Two more cards to help out with keeping Mizzix alive(note that these should ONLY be used against uncounterable spells, like Supreme Verdict or Counterflux): Commit // Memory and Venser, Shaper Savant. There's probably a few more out there, but these are the two I remember. Everyone else has pretty much gone over whatever else I can suggest.
I agree/disagree. I agree that Memory costs quite a bit...I can count on one hand the number of times I've cast that side. But it's there, and since this isn't G or B, any kind of graveyard recursion(ESPECIALLY since we're in RU) strikes me as pretty important, particularly because Niv 3.0 needs them spells coming. It might help if you think of Memory as an 'emergency restock', though in a properly tuned Izzet deck, this should never be a concern.
Commit, I believe your point is wrong, however. It has mostly the same ability as Venser, Shaper Savant(for the same, but less restrictive CMC, I might add), and while he's good because he can be blinked repeatedly, that doesn't make Commit any less relevant. Its usefulness DOES depend on the meta(keeping spells on track, watching out for that tree, OOOH!), but I've rarely been unhappy with it. In a crazy, combo-centric game where everything is trying to go off 'just so', I've seen it be the monkey wrench that throws the rhythm of everything off. The same COULD be said of most counters yes, but Commit has, in my experience, deflated combo players just a bit more. Putting it second from the top is akin to feeling like Damocles, no doubt, but that too plays to your advantage.
I maintain that it's worthwhile in 'spelldraw' decks of this sort...you may never cast one side or the other, but they are there if you need them. And I'm sure this is FAR from the only split card that is guilty of this(only one side is really relevant in my deck), either.
EDIT: Got so focused on the Commit // Memory discussion, I forgot to include this.
I don't know how vicious you intend to be on your opponents, but it occurs to me that most troublesome lands are utility lands. If you don't have it in your deck already, you may want to consider Blood Sun, as a way of slowing them down until you get Blood Moon.
Untiger is not wrong in his assessment either; everyone floats mana, not just because it fits into their plan, but BECAUSE there's no downside. I dunno, it just rubs me the wrong way.
...Mindslaver, Sorin Markov and Emrakul, the Promised End would give new ways to kill your opponents, though. There is that, I admit.
Fellwar Stone becomes tapped, and you have opponents that can produce UBG via their lands. What Fellwar does is produce THAT mana(one only of UBG), and that can then be used in whatever spell you have(save for colorless manaC).
Now, if you had Fellwar out, and your entire pod(or last opponent) only had Wastes or Strip Mine or the Urza-tron out, then yes...it could not produce that colorless mana.
You're absolutely right; most removal(land or creature) operates at instant speed, and ideally, one would wait until the casting of CV to fully neuter the potential threat. But surprisingly(not really), casual tables are FULL of sub-optimal plays. CV will likely exacerbate the problem of those sub-optimal plays, because people will primarily have 'gotta stop CV' on their mind. It is possible(even likely) that the problem will correct its course after a while as more people learn the right timing, but that's not a ship I'd want to be on in the meantime.
Again, you assume that people are going to be completely open and honest about what's in their deck('they can just say they're not running CV), but not everyone will. The dishonesty of those few will leave a foul taste in the mouth of those who got snookered, leading to them not even caring if the next BUGRW guy does or does NOT have Coalition Victory. They've been fooled once, and d***ed if they'll be fooled again, you're going down! Yeah, there's generally no reason to conceal your deck because it's just a casual game, but by and large, no one cares: they like to keep surprises, fun or not.
CV, overall, would be poison for the format because we're human. It'd be nice to play in a format where everyone was open about what's in their deck, played degenerate cards fairly, and there was no ban list(imperfect as it is), but here we are. You make points about EtI(I use T&N, so I'm biased on that), but those cards need more setup beyond 'playing the game'.
And that's all I'm going to say, because you're not pushing for an unban like others.
Decks that have tribal thieves/sacs in the 99 might also like it. Obviously, it's bonkers with Hivelord.
Notion Thief, while not much better, at least would die if you caught the controller with an empty hand. Admittedly, it's balanced out by its own keyword(flash), but I think the tipping point still lands in Leo's court. Thief needs someone playing a specific deck role; Leo flips you the bird 90% of the time just for running a normal aspect of many decks.
I would like to add that Magus of the Balance is a horrible comparison...not quite apples to oranges, more like Granny Smith apples to Crab Apples.
I'm sorry, but your petition to convince us that Balance is balanced is...well, very imbalanced.
Planeswalkers - Now, I admit, planeswalkers aren't the best of cards to include in a deck, but superfriends is, and will likely always be, a thing. Balance plays into a lot of planeswalker abilities(a number of the Liliana's for the sacced creatures in GYs, a few Jaces for spells, perhaps more). Even Tibby works into it, as his discard ability helps you go into hand discard on your opponents. Superfriends can be egregious enough without a one-sided game reset...we've got Karn for that, thankyewverahmuch.
Artifacts - Okay, this can be a serious problem. Run the rocks, and no lands is a non-issue. I'm sure people would love to be mana-less, while the Balance player is running his Sol Ring through all the signets or keyrunes. Add in that more than a few can animate themselves(as with the keyrunes)and/or prevent anything threatening from entering the board in time to stop said Balance player, and again...things get very 'undesirable game state' pretty fast.
Enchantments - This is another heavy hitter. Discarding an answer to a troublesome enchantment because of Balance, or lacking the mana to cast even a Krosan Grip in time is not a fun place to be. Gift of Immortality alone makes saccing creatures a non-issue, assuming it's put on the right one. False Demise gives you the biggest threat on the table. I would go on, but I think even my very basic point has been made without treading over the same ground as before.
I believe it is, as I said earlier, the combination of what Balance does PLUS what it doesn't that keeps it banned. If it were errata'd to include artifacts, enchantments AND planeswalkers, I imagine it would be treated as 'geddon...legal, but socially stigmatized. As is, while it does need to be built around, it's got enough flexibility FOR building that I am inclined to agree with the RC that it's better off banned.