Why should the graveyard be the exception? In certain metagames, it's completely reasonable to play 4 Fatal Push, but that's a sign of a healthy metagame, but 4 Surgical Extractions main is for some reason a symptom of unhealthy decks. If you get run over by a creature deck… but you don't have a single piece of creature removal, the response is really "Sorry, Charlie. You should've packed some creature removal in your mainboard. Them's the breaks!" If you get run over because someone goes buckwild with their graveyard it's, "The format is a hot dumpster fire." That's the part I have difficulty with.
Hogaak takes it too far, that's for sure. That's a deck abusing a zone beyond the limits of what the format can handle. I doubt we see that deck for too much longer in the format. But is it immediately wrong to have to pack grave hate, perhaps even mainboard? Most decks utilize their graveyard as a resource, so maybe we should be more open to interacting with it in general. Graveyard usage and creature prevalence both seem to be high. What truly separates them? Because we're just more comfortable with creatures being a core mechanic?
I'm curious to see the reasoning on why we should have such opposition to having to run gravehate. On a personal level, I don't enjoy having to run so much gravehate in the main or side. I'd be fine if most of the heavy grave-abusing formats left the format, but I just wonder if our mindset is what needs adjusting, instead of trying to force the format into a box that it used to fit inside of.
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LeoTzu posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)Posted in: Modern Archives -
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ktkenshinx posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)At this point, Hogaak Bridge has all the hallmarks of a broken deck, except a major paper finish/presence. If it enjoys this kind of performance at the upcoming GP, it will have more than enough data points to justify a ban. If it doesn't, it might still have enough data points based on MTGO alone; GGT was banned without too much Dredge dominance at the GP level.Posted in: Modern Archives
As other users have noted in the swirl of ban talk around Hogaak, none of this should change our ban method. Waiting for more data to validate a ban theory has proven a significantly more reliable and accurate method of predicting bans and brokenness than the knee-jerk responses we typically see. We should not change that method in the future regardless of how Hogaak turns out. -
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Grindor11 posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)Okay, so there's a few contradictions happening in this thread right now regarding Mongoose and Hexdrinker.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
What if a 3/3 Shroud isn't good enough by turn 3?
- How is Hexdrinker exempt from this? It's strictly worse than mongoose until you put four mana into it. The shroud is better than the extra power every day of the week even if it's a 1/1 vs a 2/1.
- Seems like the reaction when the Hexdrinker doesn't get to its second stage is basically "oh well, we tried". It seems to be that there's a general consensus that you have a more reliable way of dumping mana into something rather than filling the graveyard with proactive spells. What? In what world is this true?
- Is the general consensus that removal is less present than grave hate? If so... that's just wrong.
There's really like no merit to Hexdrinker guys, C'mon. We got mongoose. -
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AtraxianShade posted a message on Talisman Cycle (Brainstorm Brewery preview)Took them long enough to complete the cycle...Posted in: The Rumor Mill -
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ktkenshinx posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)Posted in: Modern ArchivesQuote from Joban8 »You'd think that the same people who allegedly monitor format health would have an expert understanding of the modern infrastructure and which existing cards would be most efficacious when it comes to filling in gaps, balancing the color pie, bolstering lower tier archetypes, etc were they ever reprinted into modern. Instead of utilizing those existing cards, which have concrete data, and opting to make MH a majority compilation of brand new unknown variables is a sign of either ignorance or ineptitude, in my eyes. I won't damn the set until everything is laid out on the table, but I'm going to have some serious trust issues come June 14 if all we have is a set with sweet EDH toys and one solid land cycle.Quote from cfusionpm »
I have literally been saying this for years, and constantly mocked for it. But time and time again, they show that their understanding of the format is embarrassingly thin and almost entirely dictated by spreadsheets and data sets of names. There is no deep and fundamental understanding of the actual format meta or how the decks interact with each other, outside of the absolute most basic, surface level observations. Is this set what it finally takes for others to see that?
It's very easy for players to criticize Wizards' understanding of the format if we focus on misses without context. I prefer to look at the big picture since 2016. The most telling example of this is banlist management. Every few months since Eldrazi Winter, vocal subsets of the player community have clamored for bans. Pros have joined in (LSV and GDS is an infamous example). SCG casters regularly talk about bans and format health at every single event. I stopped counting the number of times authors tangentially mention bans in articles or Tweets, and I have seen literally dozens of ban suggestions made by players, authors, commentators, pros, observers, and other community members. These have included Tron lands, Mox Opal, GDS, Cavern, E-Temple, Company, SSG, Teferi, Baral, Manamorphose, Moon, Bridge, Hierarch, Stirrings, Looting, Inquiry, and many more. It's a widely established meme at this point. But throughout all of this, Wizards has ignored most outcry and only banned three cards: Probe (a card so broken it is banned in every non-Standard format), GGT (a surgical nerf to a still viable, top-tier deck), and KCI (a demonstrably broken deck by objective, predictable measures).
I argue this conservatism is because Wizards has a much deeper and broader understanding of format dynamics than most players who get caught up in the day to day grinding and comment mill. Wizards understands that barring extreme situations, the format arcs towards diversity and two dozen viable decks of all archetypes and colors. Bans aren't necessary. Targeted shakeups aren't necessary. Basically every new Standard set has trickled format-defining cards into Modern and Wizards knows this will continue to happen. Wizards also understands that this broad viability is central to Modern's widespread appeal, even if individual players from enfranchised, knowledgeable, and experienced cohorts disagree or dislike the format. Not all players will like this. Notably, players who prefer the powerful cantrips and countermagic of Legacy will probably not like this and will describe this format as high variance and low skill, even though I have disproven this claim more times than I can count with analyses of player/pro MWPs across formats.
Unfortunately, because Wizards does not support Legacy to the same extent as Modern, all players who prefer non-rotating formats generally are funneled into Modern specifically. This means that players who would probably prefer a Legacy environment can't really enjoy it. Standard and EDH players don't have this issue; they can just stick with the formats they want to play, especially with Arena offering such a great Standard experience. But because Modern is a top-down response to the problems of the Reserve List, it is the de facto nonrotating format of Magic and that will never appeal to all the players who could theoretically enjoy nonrotating Magic. This means there will always be critics, especially vocal, enfranchised, and experienced players who want a defined metagame, a 50/50+ deck, a specific type of strong interaction/selection, etc. Wizards just understands they can't please everyone and instead chooses to promote a format where two dozen decks can T8 a GP, and they understand this is possible with hands-off management.
Quote from AUTUMNTWILIGHT »
Honestly what makes it disgraceful is that it aint hard for WOTC if they care about this stuff to sign up to some Forums like this, Cruise multiple Reddit for Magic and sit in Discords. This isn't the 90s or early 00s. If they actually cared it wouldnt be that hard to do a decent job. If they wanted to do some research and find out what people think about various decks it be easy. But I honestly don't think they care and wanna fix things.
Again, these kinds of criticisms are likely not grounded in reality. Wizards has visible representatives on Reddit and Twitter. They repost articles on the mothership from dozens of websites. A prominent R&D member is a mod alum of this website. It is implausible that they do not know about the feedback. They simply did not process the feedback how you and others might have preferred. It's frustratingly common to see people, both online and in person, criticizing large organizations for decisions with thousands of moving parts. They are obviously listening and engaging the community. It takes just a cursory look at even the last B&R announcement, where they explicitly mentioned Modern concerns, to realize this. -
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Pollaski posted a message on Mothership spoilers 04/03/19(on the weatherlight)Posted in: The Rumor Mill
Tiana: Jhoira? You're looking off into space again. Are you thinking about Teferi?
Jhoira: Yeah... I'm so jealous of him and his spark. Getting to go around the multiverse, helping people...
(meanwhile, on Ravnica)
Jace: Okay, so we're all gathered here, ready to defend..
Chandra: Yeah, but look at us, Jace. We're all like little kids compared to Bolas.
Jace: I thought of that. So I got two of the oldest planeswalkers to help out. Introduuuuuuuuuuciiiiiiiiiiiing... Drumroll?
(Half-hearted drumroll)
Jace: SORIN AND NAHIRI (gestures dramatically at two curtains, which raise simultaneously)
Nahiri: SORIN!?
Sorin: NAHIRI?!
(The entire area suddenly explodes with stone fragments and blood, covering all the planeswalkers. The two oldwalkers are nowhere to be found, but their battle echoes in the distance.)
Huatli: What just happened?
Jace: I... wasn't... expecting...
(Words cut off as Nahiri destroys six city blocks)
Teferi: (looking at Jaya) So, does it bother you that WE'RE the two most mature oldwalkers?
(Jaya nods, exasperated)
Gideon: So is there anyone else?
Jace: Um.... Ugin?
Chandra: The dragon that pretty much swore he'd unmake us the moment he saw us again?
Jace: Look, all things considered, its a miracle we've survived the last ten minutes, okay? -
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Ulka posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 11/03/2019)After some deliberation, we have deemed that the discussion here in the state of modern has been too volatile recently. We here at Mtgsalvation pride ourselves on being a welcoming and civil community for the discussion of Magic the Gathering. While we understand from time to time conversations can get heated, flaming and trolling behaviors are unacceptable and will not be tolerated. In this thread, we have seen some of the worst of this and due to that we are taking stricter action.Posted in: Modern Archives
When the thread is unlocked if people continue to flame and troll, we will begin suspensions immediately.
This is the last warning.
Ulka and the Moderating Team -
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CavalryWolfPack posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 11/03/2019)After dishing out an innumerable number of infractions and warnings, I'm locking this thread for a few days so every can cool off a bit. Come back in a few days when it's reopened to resume discussion.Posted in: Modern Archives -
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headminerve posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 21/01/2019)Posted in: Modern ArchivesIt has become incredibly frustrating to discuss changes in modern, where at the start of this increase in linearity I'm arguing with people that this plate of pasta would be much better if we removed the gravel from it, and people insisting the gravel is just fine
Is this hyperbole also ?
When I look at the numbers, Modern is diverse and top decks were not always the same in 2018. Phoenix decks are super popular right now, shared by two distinct variants. MTGtop8 says 11% of the perfs. That's close to what Twin did before its ban, sure. In all of 2018, no deck was on average over 9%. Wouldn't some players whine a bit too much ?
Yes, some decks are a bit out of control for a moment, but Wizards did a good job about them right ? I feel like some players can't suffer an unfavorable meta for a month without neverendlessly whining. I think the format is pretty good because it's easy to figure out what goes wrong, react fast, and balance the meta again (thanks to the banlist and new printings, it's not only via "adapting" our lists to the meta).
Not to flame, but I feel like this topic is constantly fed by old tired Modern analysts. I'm curious whether we could raise the forum so players emotionally complain less and build more cold-blooded criticism, sharing the negative AND the positive in a reasonable manner.
But if you actually would try to max your win percentage to steal a big tournament, there are at most 5 decks you should seriously consider. Isn't it just common sense that if you have to submit to the matchup lottery, the winning strategy is to linear as hard as possible and steal at least game 1?
You don't steal a big tournament if you choose among the top tier decks. You steal it if you win with an underdog deck, that's what I call "steal".
Then, you play more post-SB games than G1s. It's part of Magic to concede G1 to linear strategies, like in Legacy & Vintage. This is where noone is wrong or right, you either choose to play a strong G1 deck, or a strong G2 deck. Not sure it has something to do with the idea linear decks make a format worse.
There's also the fact that if you want to win big tourneys, it implies you gotta spend money first, probably in several expensive decks. To be competitive, you don't complain about the meta, at first you complain about how much money you wasted in decks and trips. Only something stupid like the Eldrazi Winter (because you're tired losing the mirror at the top tables) can cause you to complain about the meta, really.
Is Modern "narrow" right now ? Maybe, but I don't care, I believe it's smart to see Modern in the long term, accept to lose money because of bannings, and accept to let go my pet deck for a better one from time to time. I was on Pod, then on Elves, then on Humans, now on Phoenix. I feel good. -
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ashtonkutcher posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Try our sideboard, we like the Phoenix matchup okay:Quote from Mikefon »Quote from MikePemulis »I think other than exactly Jund and Rock, Huntmaster is just the best 4 drop currently in print for the deck. The value is great and it wins if it sticks, but it also does good stuff like damage through a Bridge, lifegain against the aggro decks, blockers for GDS ... It's just great. Hazoret is probably better against the Thoughtseize decks that don't have Path, but in all the other matchups, I'd rather go a little wider.
Went 2-1 last night. Lost to Phoenix 0-2, though the games were close. Beat both Dredge and Storm 2-0, and the Dredge games were both won by countering key discard outlets with either Shoal or Pierce, not through hate. Surgical wrapped up game 2 against Storm. I stuck a Grafdigger's Cage in over my general catch all, Delay, and never saw it and never wanted to. Phoenix killed me with Thing and Drake, and Cage doesn't do anything there. What I really wanted was another Flame Slash in the 75, so I may try that out next week.
I'm also learning that except in the ultra grindy matchups, I'm probably overboarding. Instead of the 7-10 cards I often sideboard in, I've been more like 3-6 lately and happier for it. The Shoal plan feels great right now against most of the top decks. I'm even going to cut a Blood Moon down to 2 I the board, which feels awful given how much I love that card, but all I want right now are extra Spell Pierces and removal that kills x/4s.
I was also toying with the idea of going down to 1 Snapcaster and playing a Nimble Obstructionist, Vendilion Clique, or even Savage Knuckleblade as my 15th creature. Snapcaster has just been a little slow and I want more ways to close the game faster that don't rely on recasting Bolts. Having a 9th ferocious enabler with Knucks is also super tempting. Thoughts?
I'm on Countercats but despite path I still have to win a game against Phoenix decks. I definitely need to test more, but it's not a great match up for tempo decks.
I feel that 2 moons are enough in this meta.
About knucks: I always love having it in the deck. It can have Haste and sometimes it may also dodge removals. And as a 6/6 can close the games really quickly. The only problem is that it isn't evasive.
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There won't be any emergency ban. It would crash the already small confidence some people have in Wizards. At end of August probably Hogaak summer will end and a new meta will come. Then Eldraine come and we will reset the meta again. Stagnant is not what modern has been recently!
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One can complain about this policy, but surely it won't make modern fall.
I personally like the change for what is worth.
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This are exactly my thoughts. I couldn't have explained better.
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Nice results! Congratulations!
(P.S. you should have a pm. If you don't, tell me so that I try to send it again ).
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I think Kathal was referring to Conley Wood's narset control deck naming shoal an commandeer. That decks is such a blast and just wrecks neoform! It seems pretty good against the field too.
About goldfished pre turn 4 wins: it's quite impressive so far. Curious to know the difference on the draw (should even increase thanks to the card drawn).
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I wasn't satisfied and got back to mandrills quickly.
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It doesn't work with cascade though since cascade exiles it before casting it.
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That's huge!
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