Well, compared to Jund you are right, yes, Liliana is definitely better against Hollow One in this deck. But I am not yet convinced whether she is actually good enough. I like discard against the deck, I don't like Push though.
Going forward, many Hollow One players will include Sacred Foundry alongside Souls in their deck, so I would keep that in mind when thinking about Liliana.
I am actually curious whether somebody ever tried a split of Veil and Last Hope because I actually like Last Hope's abilities on paper in this deck.
As a rule of thumb, I usually board out LotV against all decks containing Bloodghast. I don't like her against Hollow One because in addition to the Vampire she is also weak to opposing Phoenixes in Hand and Battlefield.
Like I already said, matchups like Storm or Humans are not as good as they have once been. Yes, Müller got lucky in R3 but that doesn't change the fact that the deck became clunkier after the unbans. And clunkiness is the last thing you want from your deck in these matchups.
FNM-Report:
It has been some months since I last played Mardu Pyromancer, and after having been disappointed with Jund I decided to give it a try again. Here is the list I sleeved up yesterday:
Round 1 vs Jund:
Opponent is on the play, I mulliganed to 6 and immediately realized that Mardu plays vastly different from the Rock decks I am habituated playing with. Discard on turn 1 is followed by a Young Pyromancer who gets killed by a Push. He plays Liliana of the Veil, I discard Souls. The following turn I flashback Souls, Inquisition him and see 2 BBE. He then casts BBE, cascades into a Goyf and then overruns me. It all went too fast without me finding enough removal.
Game 2 is over even faster because I mulliganed to 6 again, dind't find my second land after double Looting and got overrun again by BBE and Goyf. 0-1
Round 2 vs GR Midrange:
My opponent plays a Ponza-ish deck with a typical Ponza opening of Land into Arbor Elf, but also cards like Strangleroot Geist, Goblin Rabblemaster and Kitchen Finks. It was not really a fight because my opponent was very inexperienced (it was his first FNM and it was not his own deck). I decided both games pretty fast in my favour without him doing an awful lot after I killed his Arbor Elf on turn 1 in both matches. 1-1
Round 3 vs Esper Control:
Before the Evening, I was not sure who is the favourite in these kind of matchups, and to be honest, I am still unsure about it. In game one, I stabilized the board with several Spirit and Elemental tokens and had him dead in two turns but he topdecked Supreme Verdict and I had to start again from scratch. A second wipe was followed by a Gideon of the Trials while I was drawing 3 lands in a row which was enough for me to concede. The next two games I experienced the power of Blood Moon in addition to Molten Rain. This combination of cards locked him out of both game 2 and 3 without really putting up a fight. 2-1
Round 4 vs 4c-Saheeli:
I think I am heavily favoured in this matchup: Discard, efficient removal combined with pressure in form of tokens make this matchup very hard for my opponent. His clunky manabase doesn't do him a favour against a Blood Moon deck. I nevertheless had to respect his combo in game 1, as he played Felidar Guardian on turn 3, I bolted Renegade Rallier in response and then let him discard Saheeli Rai with a Thoughtseize the following turn. From here on, Souls and Elemental tokens finished the job because he stumbled on three mana after I killed his Noble Hierarch and his Hand was full of Sun Titans and other expensive cards. Game 2 I again managed to lock an opponent out with Blood Moon without him doing much. 3-1
In the end I was quite happy how the tournament evolved, but was very unhappy about my first match against Jund. How do you guys approach sideboarding in that particular matchup, do you take out the discard and Moon or not? I decided to add a second Moon postboard alongside EE, Molten Rain and Hazoret and took out Brutality and some of the discard. But I am not sure whether it was the correct line.
My second concern regarding sideboarding affects Bedlam Reveler. Is it wise to board 1-2 Revelers out against decks with gy-hate like RIP and Leyline or is he too important to cut? I decided to remove 2 from the mainboard when I expected my opponent to bring in gy-hate, but again, I am unsure whether this is the correct approach.
However, I had a lot of fun playing the deck, but it is way more difficult to play than I first expected.
True, that's my biggest issue with Rabblemaster: Nearly all the opponents will bring in sweepers and Rabblemaster dies to all of them. Coming a turn earlier is one major upside though, but I basically agree with you that Hazoret might be a better choice.
Edit: I see you play 2 Anger in the sb, and while the exile clause is often relevant, I can not recommend Engineered Explosives enough in this deck. It is way better against Humans, Bogles, Jund and even UW Control that I would advice you playing a mix of 1/1.
You are basically playing Caleb's list from the last open, but cut 1 Brutality for a second Manamorphose. It is appealing, but I can't make that move because of the Humans and Burn players in my local meta.
About 2x Liliana mainboard: I think she fits perfectly into the deck. She removes threats we have a hard time dealing with (Smashers etc), helps against combo and the discard is never really a disadvantage in the deck. Like you said, I don't think 2 Terminates are necessary with Liliana in the mainboard.
I am still unsure about my gy-hate configuration. This is one of the few decks where I don't dislike Leyline because of Looting, but Surgical is an instant and harmonizes better with Reveler alongside the great Spellbomb.
What about Lavamancer instead of the second Anger? Not good enough because of the nonbo with Reveler?
Rabblemaster is also an option I am currently considering for my sideboard, but Hazoret fulfills a similar role. Have to test them both extensively.
From my limited experience, it is not that bad of a matchup. You can deal with their big threats and create a lot of small blockers, which makes it hard for them to get through. Reveler then finishes the game as they don't have removal for him. They can of course have the nutdraw and make pressure from turn 2 onwards, but I think we are slightly favoured.
For those of you running Hazoret, how easy is it for you to cast her on curve? My biggest issue with the deck currently is hitting the 3rd land (playing 20 lands/ 1 Manamorphose). Looting on turn 1 solves this problem most of the time, but without it I often stumble with my mana.
I have been playing this exact list (apart from a single Treetop Village) for the last month or so, and it felt underwhelming to be honest. I don't know which direction the deck needs to take in order to function properly. I disagree with Hellkite and EctoMark when they say that the deck is well positioned in the current meta. It is a solid tier 2 deck, nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, the unban of Bloodbraid Elf helped the deck. Why? There was a hype around the card, many players were playing the Elf, some had moderate success with the deck (as it will always be when a lot of players are on the same deck).
Another aspect was the unban of Jace. People were hyping control and man, BBE is an incredible powerhouse against control. I would go as far as claiming that control has become Jund's best matchup since the unbans thanks to the raw power of BBE. But people stopped playing control once they realized Jace is not a superhero, but just a 4cmc PW which who is often not more than a Brainstorm at sorcery speed. That's the nature of modern. Both Jace and BBE are powerful, but they get outclassed.
Now, what am I seeing at local game stores, at GP's and on the SCG Tour? Aggro, Combo and Big Mana.
Yes, BBE made the Tron matchup better, but let's not fool ourselves, this is still a very bad matchup.
How do the new Jund lists fight against aggressive decks like Humans, Affinity or Burn? They feel clunky (even the list with 12 one drops, I can't imagine how the pushless versions feel like), and the main problem is you don't know what you get when casting a 4 mana spell.
Casting a BBE against control is always fine because it doesn't matter what extra card you get, it is always at least a slight advantage (especially postbaord, when dead cards get boarded out) against a slow and reactive opponent, but against aggro you need specific answers and a 3/2 body for 4 mana with an additional effect against a deck like Humans is not strong enough.
I don't want BBE against Storm either, nor do I like her against Burn.
There are still other midrange decks played, but I don't think Jund is outclassing Ponza or Mardu. Yes, Jund is very good against Shadow decks, but they are currently not at the top of the meta.
What I wanted to say with this post is that I don't like BBE against a lot of the current top decks. Playing four is probably still the way to go in Jund because there are matchups where she is very good, but I don't think she excels in the current meta. Aggressive decks are taking over the Modern format, and Jund always used to be the control deck against these decks. BBE doesn't allow us to take this strategy, and that's why I believe the deck is currently in a bizarre situation: The one card everyone wanted back got unbanned, but it doesn't help beating the best decks in the format.
I played a lot against Humans recently and I started not boarding in Souls against them because all they do is buying you time. The long game Humans will always end up winning against Shadow because of their persistant flood of threats. MVP against Humans are removal and TBR, and from the board any kind of sweeper alongside Abrade or Bolt.
I learned it when playing Jund that discard is not bad against Humans postboard (especially IOK), therefore I would always leave in discard against them. I don't like Lilianas against Humans because new Lili doesn't kill their threats while old Lili only gets the worst of many threats in most cases.
This sub seems to be pretty sold on 4 Manamorphose in the deck. And I will probably test this new build in the coming days and weeks. I can see the big upside of Manamorphose in theory, because imo the Achilles' heel of the deck is it's manabase. Playing only 1 basic is extremely greedy and you often need 4 colors in a match to function. 4 Manamorphose and an additional forest seem to solve this problem, but I am not yet entirely sold on it. Not playing Liliana and an additional threat like Flayer or Snap hurts the deck especially in attrition-based matchups. Here is the list I have been playing so far in the post-unban meta:
Apart from the Humans matchup (I swapped Grudge for Abrade in order to improve it) I really like this decklist in the current meta. I am just not yet sold on the Manamorphose in the deck because removing Liliana and Snap from the deck feels like giving up all the midrange mirrors (I understand what you say, the deck is more combo than midrange with Manamorphose). But Traverse Shadow was never a deck that was weak to combo decks, and I don't think you improve your big mana matchups by including Manamorphose (they are actually very close to 50/50 with the list above from my experience). I can see the advantage of your build against UW Control, Ponza and other Blood Moon decks, but are they worth giving up on a powerhouse like LotV, which is probably the single best card against Control?
Making assumptions without having played with a card seems to be stupid, and I am aware of that, but I just don't know the direction of the deck and am therefore asking these questions. The deck is not seen on any bigger tournaments (not sure whether people still try out Jace/BBE decks or don't see the power of the deck), so there doesn't seem to be the one perfect list. That's why I am curious about other people's builds, experience and new techs.
Given that humans is close to tier 0.5 currently, I imagine Thalia is a card you see a decent amount of times. And I can't imagine you want Manamorphose against these kind of decks postboard.
@Spooly, how do you approach sideboarding with Manamorphose? Do you ever side the card out, and if so, how does the deck cope with inconsistency g2/3 given the deck only plays 17 lands?
Going forward, many Hollow One players will include Sacred Foundry alongside Souls in their deck, so I would keep that in mind when thinking about Liliana.
I am actually curious whether somebody ever tried a split of Veil and Last Hope because I actually like Last Hope's abilities on paper in this deck.
It has been some months since I last played Mardu Pyromancer, and after having been disappointed with Jund I decided to give it a try again. Here is the list I sleeved up yesterday:
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Bedlam Reveler
Planeswalkers: 2
2 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments: 1
1 Blood Moon
Spells: 29
4 Faithless Looting
2 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dreadbore
1 Manamorphose
1 Terminate
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lingering Souls
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Swamp
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Collective Brutality
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Blood Moon
3 Molten Rain
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Wear // Tear
Round 1 vs Jund:
Opponent is on the play, I mulliganed to 6 and immediately realized that Mardu plays vastly different from the Rock decks I am habituated playing with. Discard on turn 1 is followed by a Young Pyromancer who gets killed by a Push. He plays Liliana of the Veil, I discard Souls. The following turn I flashback Souls, Inquisition him and see 2 BBE. He then casts BBE, cascades into a Goyf and then overruns me. It all went too fast without me finding enough removal.
Game 2 is over even faster because I mulliganed to 6 again, dind't find my second land after double Looting and got overrun again by BBE and Goyf.
0-1
Round 2 vs GR Midrange:
My opponent plays a Ponza-ish deck with a typical Ponza opening of Land into Arbor Elf, but also cards like Strangleroot Geist, Goblin Rabblemaster and Kitchen Finks. It was not really a fight because my opponent was very inexperienced (it was his first FNM and it was not his own deck). I decided both games pretty fast in my favour without him doing an awful lot after I killed his Arbor Elf on turn 1 in both matches.
1-1
Round 3 vs Esper Control:
Before the Evening, I was not sure who is the favourite in these kind of matchups, and to be honest, I am still unsure about it. In game one, I stabilized the board with several Spirit and Elemental tokens and had him dead in two turns but he topdecked Supreme Verdict and I had to start again from scratch. A second wipe was followed by a Gideon of the Trials while I was drawing 3 lands in a row which was enough for me to concede. The next two games I experienced the power of Blood Moon in addition to Molten Rain. This combination of cards locked him out of both game 2 and 3 without really putting up a fight.
2-1
Round 4 vs 4c-Saheeli:
I think I am heavily favoured in this matchup: Discard, efficient removal combined with pressure in form of tokens make this matchup very hard for my opponent. His clunky manabase doesn't do him a favour against a Blood Moon deck. I nevertheless had to respect his combo in game 1, as he played Felidar Guardian on turn 3, I bolted Renegade Rallier in response and then let him discard Saheeli Rai with a Thoughtseize the following turn. From here on, Souls and Elemental tokens finished the job because he stumbled on three mana after I killed his Noble Hierarch and his Hand was full of Sun Titans and other expensive cards. Game 2 I again managed to lock an opponent out with Blood Moon without him doing much.
3-1
In the end I was quite happy how the tournament evolved, but was very unhappy about my first match against Jund. How do you guys approach sideboarding in that particular matchup, do you take out the discard and Moon or not? I decided to add a second Moon postboard alongside EE, Molten Rain and Hazoret and took out Brutality and some of the discard. But I am not sure whether it was the correct line.
My second concern regarding sideboarding affects Bedlam Reveler. Is it wise to board 1-2 Revelers out against decks with gy-hate like RIP and Leyline or is he too important to cut? I decided to remove 2 from the mainboard when I expected my opponent to bring in gy-hate, but again, I am unsure whether this is the correct approach.
However, I had a lot of fun playing the deck, but it is way more difficult to play than I first expected.
Edit: I see you play 2 Anger in the sb, and while the exile clause is often relevant, I can not recommend Engineered Explosives enough in this deck. It is way better against Humans, Bogles, Jund and even UW Control that I would advice you playing a mix of 1/1.
About 2x Liliana mainboard: I think she fits perfectly into the deck. She removes threats we have a hard time dealing with (Smashers etc), helps against combo and the discard is never really a disadvantage in the deck. Like you said, I don't think 2 Terminates are necessary with Liliana in the mainboard.
I am still unsure about my gy-hate configuration. This is one of the few decks where I don't dislike Leyline because of Looting, but Surgical is an instant and harmonizes better with Reveler alongside the great Spellbomb.
What about Lavamancer instead of the second Anger? Not good enough because of the nonbo with Reveler?
Rabblemaster is also an option I am currently considering for my sideboard, but Hazoret fulfills a similar role. Have to test them both extensively.
Yes, the unban of Bloodbraid Elf helped the deck. Why? There was a hype around the card, many players were playing the Elf, some had moderate success with the deck (as it will always be when a lot of players are on the same deck).
Another aspect was the unban of Jace. People were hyping control and man, BBE is an incredible powerhouse against control. I would go as far as claiming that control has become Jund's best matchup since the unbans thanks to the raw power of BBE. But people stopped playing control once they realized Jace is not a superhero, but just a 4cmc PW which who is often not more than a Brainstorm at sorcery speed. That's the nature of modern. Both Jace and BBE are powerful, but they get outclassed.
Now, what am I seeing at local game stores, at GP's and on the SCG Tour? Aggro, Combo and Big Mana.
Yes, BBE made the Tron matchup better, but let's not fool ourselves, this is still a very bad matchup.
How do the new Jund lists fight against aggressive decks like Humans, Affinity or Burn? They feel clunky (even the list with 12 one drops, I can't imagine how the pushless versions feel like), and the main problem is you don't know what you get when casting a 4 mana spell.
Casting a BBE against control is always fine because it doesn't matter what extra card you get, it is always at least a slight advantage (especially postbaord, when dead cards get boarded out) against a slow and reactive opponent, but against aggro you need specific answers and a 3/2 body for 4 mana with an additional effect against a deck like Humans is not strong enough.
I don't want BBE against Storm either, nor do I like her against Burn.
There are still other midrange decks played, but I don't think Jund is outclassing Ponza or Mardu. Yes, Jund is very good against Shadow decks, but they are currently not at the top of the meta.
What I wanted to say with this post is that I don't like BBE against a lot of the current top decks. Playing four is probably still the way to go in Jund because there are matchups where she is very good, but I don't think she excels in the current meta. Aggressive decks are taking over the Modern format, and Jund always used to be the control deck against these decks. BBE doesn't allow us to take this strategy, and that's why I believe the deck is currently in a bizarre situation: The one card everyone wanted back got unbanned, but it doesn't help beating the best decks in the format.
I learned it when playing Jund that discard is not bad against Humans postboard (especially IOK), therefore I would always leave in discard against them. I don't like Lilianas against Humans because new Lili doesn't kill their threats while old Lili only gets the worst of many threats in most cases.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
Planeswalker: 2
2 Liliana of the Veil
Spells: 23
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Dismember
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Hostage Taker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Fatal Push
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Golgari Charm
2 Collective Brutality
2 Abrade
2 Delay
3 Lingering Souls
1 Godless Shrine
Apart from the Humans matchup (I swapped Grudge for Abrade in order to improve it) I really like this decklist in the current meta. I am just not yet sold on the Manamorphose in the deck because removing Liliana and Snap from the deck feels like giving up all the midrange mirrors (I understand what you say, the deck is more combo than midrange with Manamorphose). But Traverse Shadow was never a deck that was weak to combo decks, and I don't think you improve your big mana matchups by including Manamorphose (they are actually very close to 50/50 with the list above from my experience). I can see the advantage of your build against UW Control, Ponza and other Blood Moon decks, but are they worth giving up on a powerhouse like LotV, which is probably the single best card against Control?
Making assumptions without having played with a card seems to be stupid, and I am aware of that, but I just don't know the direction of the deck and am therefore asking these questions. The deck is not seen on any bigger tournaments (not sure whether people still try out Jace/BBE decks or don't see the power of the deck), so there doesn't seem to be the one perfect list. That's why I am curious about other people's builds, experience and new techs.
Adopting this list would feel like making a step backwards to me.