Round 2: 0-2 against B/R burn running vexing devil, bump in the night, and claim // fame
Game 1 came down to if he had Skullcrack in hand or not and he did.
Game 2 I dumbly played into Blood Moon and got to spend some turns looking at mountains.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
That's quite a reckless burn list. I can tell you I'd never run Blood moon or claim // fame as it's heavily discouraged in a "true" burn list. what you describe sounds a lot more like a rakdos aggro, which is kinda like burn with a bigger focus on creatures. Nitpicking aside, nice job on th rematch
also, most bogles mainboard the leyline now. They know discard and sacrifice are their big weakness. The last thing they want is getting their bogle thoughseized. I usually deal with them with Runed halo.
No, ensnaring bridge isn't a necessity. I rarely play it, personally.
thanks for your reply. what is it for anyway? Eldrazi decks? what do you use instead?
Bridge is for big creatures like eldrazies, delve, and tarmogoyf and the likes. Basically, it's for creature that are 4 thoughness or more (AKA creatures that our usual red removal can't deal with).
It could be good for some meta, but we can definitely live without it. I was running two for some time when my meta was seeing lots of eldrazies, now I run a pair of searing blood instead (already maxed on searing blaze)
That's been pretty much what my creature package has been doing lately in my meta. I'm seriously thinking of replacing Monastery swiftspear for another burn spell because she rarely lives long enough for her "prowess" ability to matter.
I'm not advocating for this change in every deck/meta, but my meta is so hard on creature removal right now (Mardu Pyro, Patriot control, other burn, etc.) that I feel like she's slowing me down...
I thought that I would be back to SP pretty soon, but tbh the deck just runs much much smoother. SP tended to sit in my hand uncastable, because I got stuck on 2 colored lands and a Ghost Quarter at times. I didn't think much of it, but having a guarantee of that not happening is pretty damn great.
So for me it's a consistency thing. The deck is slow enough to where I don't think the extra speed from SP matters much. What matters imo is being able to cast my token producers easier.
Eeh... I have a harder time getting behind this, but now I know the reasoning. I don't think casting spectral for 4 mana is the end of the world, and even with 3 nonwhite mana source I rarely encounter problems to cast it turn 3. and while the speed of Spectral is not always relevant, it's still a good thing to be able to swing 6 to 9 life by turn 4. Spectral is our only way to do that WITH evasive bodies and only on one card. It also cannot be discarded by Inquisition of kozilek and that's pretty relevant as that's usually the hand-hate that's run as a playset.
Also, having tried Liliana of the veil at two for the longest time and starting seeing better result after dropping her, I might have developed a bias against her. I'm on the team that think lili has no place in BW token. Conflict with most of our good token producer and only really shine if you want to discard stuff. She was fantastic in my older meta that was more control oriented, but now I only run her when I want to run my cute/janky cheat-emrakul-into-play build. Meta is too aggro/combo right now for me at least.
Still, less color restriction is always nice, and I agree that having a second mode to spend mana on is great, hence why I run one or two on occasion. I'm just not sold on it replacing Spectral.
We both played T1 Shock Fetch Guide and then passed turn 2. At the end of my turn he helixed me. I had the option to either Helix or Skullcrack but elected to Helix because I didn't want to go to 10. We both ended up flooding for a few turns but I drew better and pulled it out. How could I have played differently/more efficiently?
I personally would have helixed his goblin in response. Creature are usually the big game winners in the mirror.
This is the list I'm gonna run tonight at my local (and it's totally not based off your list Reslin). I still have some love left for gonti's machinations and this is technically the first time I'm running black without GM. Also, not sure about the Fatal push either. I think Go for the throat is better than Terminate or Push. I'm actually thinking maybe to run more Searing blood instead of the pushes.
I do run one or two copy of Start // finish from time to time so I can definitely attest that it's not a bad card. However, it never struck me as a Spectral procession replacement/upgrade and I am not sold at all on this idea. Is it really that good in multiple (like more than 2)? Did I miss a top 8 list somewhere that ran it? I kind of want an explenation on this, because right now, I just don't see how we'd want Start // finish OVER Spectral procession... kinda feel like we'd want both at some number and not cut one altogether for the other?
Perhaps it is bias from personal experience, but a lot of time I tried running a list without spectral, it didn't go well.
Sorry if I sound dismissive, it is not my goal at all here. If it really is better I will test/run it. I just fail to see how it's better...
I am not sure I'm ok with this. I know I was probably one of the first to be vocal about running less Spectral procession to possibly splash, but then if I'm not splashing for a color, it seem like not running spectral is a mistake. I'd choose spectral over FoR any time of the week.
Not to mention field of ruin can actually help us color fix. If I was to abandon Spectral, I'd definitely consider splashing another color. Spectral is like the main reason we can't stray from BW, if that is gone then I really don't see what's stopping someone from splashing Red, green or blue.
If you want to know what Red as to offer for token, Mardu Pyromancer is what you'd be looking at, or maybe a more white heavy version, like an hybrid of both BW token and Mardu Pyro.
We have to be careful tho, we don't have a lot of flex spot and there's already not a lot of card that we can cut without hurting the deck. We want to keep black for the discard package + sorin and we definitely still have white as the main color. No matter how I look at it, red would be a splash. I wouldn't splash red just for alpine moon, but I'd play it if I was splashing red.
Token-wise: Red is "meh" compared to white. My only consideration would probably be Young pyromancer since he is good and will probably win games, BUT ONLY IF HE STICKS AROUND. From personal experience, the guy is a removal magnet.
Anthem-wise: This is where it's at for me. If I was splashing red, I'd want to run a number of Shared animosity. I will never NOT want to try this in a token deck. There's also Rally the peasants which is also very interesting.
If there were some real form of LD available in our colors it might be different
I haven't tried it in token, but I run contaminated ground in my burn for land disruption. Since we don't care about the damage, there's a cheaper/better version in evil presence.
However, it doesn't destroy the land, so no surgical extraction shenanigans here. Still, I think it's worth looking into if you want land disruption.
Well, a big thank you for those posts Reslin. I played RBg burn for a while now (about six months) and I must say I agree with all you've said. I will most likely use your decklist as a primer at least for the near future.
I'm particularly happy to hear that sovereign's bite is good. Obviously a worse Helix, but I saw a lot of people just dismissing the card because of that and I knew it had potential. Definitely looking forward to change my Gonti's Machination for those.
Runed halo is a sb card that only some favor to run.
I always ran this card in my side. It's additionnal nontargeting removal AT WORST. It's also pretty versatile. Saved me from a couple Grapsehot, Gifts ungiven and it often act as a mini leyline of sanctity. I'm probably just gushing, but Runed Halo is my pet sideboard card.
CB is great and discard too but nowhere near as powerful and DOESN'T works against leylines and bogles.
I never liked Collective Brutality either. Both Lili and CB are pretty low in my list of cards I want to play in my BW token, but CB is faster and works better against aggro and it doesn't need protection to be good. It's way worse in the attrition game tough...
Def right going up to 2 lilis. we have enough token generators anyway to protect her
Eeh, I'm not sure I agree it's "right" to run any number of lilies in the 75, but I won't stop you. Maybe you'll like her more than me. It's just my 0.02 and I might be wrong.
also, most bogles mainboard the leyline now. They know discard and sacrifice are their big weakness. The last thing they want is getting their bogle thoughseized. I usually deal with them with Runed halo.
It could be good for some meta, but we can definitely live without it. I was running two for some time when my meta was seeing lots of eldrazies, now I run a pair of searing blood instead (already maxed on searing blaze)
I'm not advocating for this change in every deck/meta, but my meta is so hard on creature removal right now (Mardu Pyro, Patriot control, other burn, etc.) that I feel like she's slowing me down...
Also, having tried Liliana of the veil at two for the longest time and starting seeing better result after dropping her, I might have developed a bias against her. I'm on the team that think lili has no place in BW token. Conflict with most of our good token producer and only really shine if you want to discard stuff. She was fantastic in my older meta that was more control oriented, but now I only run her when I want to run my cute/janky cheat-emrakul-into-play build. Meta is too aggro/combo right now for me at least.
Still, less color restriction is always nice, and I agree that having a second mode to spend mana on is great, hence why I run one or two on occasion. I'm just not sold on it replacing Spectral.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer
Burn Spells (28)
4 Skullcrack
4 Searing Blaze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sovereign's Bite
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
4 Arid Mesa
3 Mountain
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Contaminated Ground
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Searing Blood
2 Fatal Push
2 Go for the Throat
2 Rakdos Charm
I do run one or two copy of Start // finish from time to time so I can definitely attest that it's not a bad card. However, it never struck me as a Spectral procession replacement/upgrade and I am not sold at all on this idea. Is it really that good in multiple (like more than 2)? Did I miss a top 8 list somewhere that ran it? I kind of want an explenation on this, because right now, I just don't see how we'd want Start // finish OVER Spectral procession... kinda feel like we'd want both at some number and not cut one altogether for the other?
Perhaps it is bias from personal experience, but a lot of time I tried running a list without spectral, it didn't go well.
Sorry if I sound dismissive, it is not my goal at all here. If it really is better I will test/run it. I just fail to see how it's better...
Not to mention field of ruin can actually help us color fix. If I was to abandon Spectral, I'd definitely consider splashing another color. Spectral is like the main reason we can't stray from BW, if that is gone then I really don't see what's stopping someone from splashing Red, green or blue.
We have to be careful tho, we don't have a lot of flex spot and there's already not a lot of card that we can cut without hurting the deck. We want to keep black for the discard package + sorin and we definitely still have white as the main color. No matter how I look at it, red would be a splash. I wouldn't splash red just for alpine moon, but I'd play it if I was splashing red.
Question is, is it worth it to splash red?
Removal-wise: Lighting bolt, Lightning helix, Dreadbore and Terminate are all fantastic, but We already have a very good removal package. the bolts would probably replace the fatal push, but that's pretty much it.
Discard-wise: Red offers nothing interesting.
Token-wise: Red is "meh" compared to white. My only consideration would probably be Young pyromancer since he is good and will probably win games, BUT ONLY IF HE STICKS AROUND. From personal experience, the guy is a removal magnet.
Anthem-wise: This is where it's at for me. If I was splashing red, I'd want to run a number of Shared animosity. I will never NOT want to try this in a token deck. There's also Rally the peasants which is also very interesting.
Sideboard-wise: Alpine Moon, Rakdos Charm, Boros Charm, Slaughter games, Fulminator Mage, Deflecting palm, Abrade, wear // Tear... I'm not sold personally, but there's options. Edit: There's also Crackling doom, Crumble to dust, by force and Harsh mentor
However, it doesn't destroy the land, so no surgical extraction shenanigans here. Still, I think it's worth looking into if you want land disruption.
I'm particularly happy to hear that sovereign's bite is good. Obviously a worse Helix, but I saw a lot of people just dismissing the card because of that and I knew it had potential. Definitely looking forward to change my Gonti's Machination for those.
... Where are your Spectral procession?!
Still, now that it spiked to like 40$, I have a lot more trouble recommending it over stuff like Blessed alliance or Leyline of sanctity. I never liked Collective Brutality either. Both Lili and CB are pretty low in my list of cards I want to play in my BW token, but CB is faster and works better against aggro and it doesn't need protection to be good. It's way worse in the attrition game tough... Eeh, I'm not sure I agree it's "right" to run any number of lilies in the 75, but I won't stop you. Maybe you'll like her more than me. It's just my 0.02 and I might be wrong.