Do you have any updates? How has the decked performed? Have you made any changes? I've just stumbled across this thread and it seems good. I feel it's missing out on Grim Flayer though, maybe play it over Strangleroot Geist? You're already playing a delerium deck, it seems like it'd fit.
I'm at a crossroads, I've gotten to the point where I'm cutting more and more red cards. I've always been high on Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, (notice the prof pic) and with Dredge and Burn being popular, I'm experimenting with 3 mainboard and NO Bloodbraid Elf. I cut Kolaghan's Command for Liliana, the Last Hope a while ago and now I have 3 Lightning Bolt's mainboard and that's it. I keep it Jund, because I love Raging Ravine and Anger of the Gods SB. Is it worth it at this point? Are these 3 cards worth playing Jund or should I just give up and switch to GB? I've always felt 2 colors was silly because of how perfect Jund mana has always felt. Thoughts?
Cherry on top would be the keyword you "May" exile them to get Dredge when Kalitas isn't out and to get Zombies when he is.
When there are two replacement effects, doesn't the player who controls the effects get to choose which one is used?
True. If there are multiple replacement effects, the owner of the object chooses which one will affect it.
If it's a forced effect like it is now, than the other play may choose which effect exiles them. However if Anger of the God's said you "may" exile them instead, it's your card, you cast it, and you can choose if you wanted to exile them or not. If you choose not, than Kalitas's not-may ability forces the exile and you would get zombies and your opponent would have no say. That was my point, wishing for a sweeper where the exile was a "may."
NoSB and Ishkanah were for testing. I didnt like NoSB, would have rather had another Anger vs Elves, maybe its better vs scales affinity instead of Anger, not sure.
Many GBx players are playing Languish these days. It's really good versus Spirits in particular as well as the other go-wide decks. It is often still Goyf-friendly as well.
Whats the upside of playing Languish instead of Damnation besides the slight chance Goyf might surive? The downside of languish is also the chance your opponents creatures are too big.
Also Spirits play like 1 selfless spirits in the sideboard
There are several upsides. Sometimes, your Goyfs and Oozes can survive Languish, it can hit indestructible creatures or creatures with regeneration (not played a lot right not, but Thrun and Hazoret have seen play), Meddling Mage can only name one of your two sweepers, and UW Spirits does run 3-4 Selfless Spirits. It also costs a lot less than Damnation.
It makes sense to run 1 copy each of Damnation and Languish if you run two sweepers.
Fair enough, though Damnation also doesnt let creatures regenarate. Im just scared this wont kill Angler, Tasigur, Reality Smasher, big Balista, Hangerback or Ravagers. I think the only upside is dodging selfless spirit, the money cost and the slight chance your scooze or goyf survive. Seems alright.
Why do people keep saying "slight" chance Goyf will survive Languish? Goyf is a 4/5 80-90% of the time so I would say it's more likely than not it will survive languish. The only thing I don't like about Languish is that it usually will kill Kalitas & Scooze, both of which can usually survive Anger of the Gods but also both non-bo with Anger. I wish there was a 3 Mana -3/-3 to play alongside Kalitas to just WRECK creature decks. Cherry on top would be the keyword you "May" exile them to get Dredge when Kalitas isn't out and to get Zombies when he is.
I can see a world where we would play a 3/2 split on Trophy and Decay instead of 3/1/1 on AT/AD/Pulse. But there's just no way that a 2/2 or 2/3 split is correct on Day 1 of the new meta. Decay is a really narrow card. There are matchups where it has virtually, or literally, zero relevant targets. Trophy always does something and it often does a lot. We can't hedge on Decay being good in matchups when you might go an entire tournament without seeing those matchups. At least Trophy is always removing something and often removing something that Decay can't hit at all. This is the same reason we often see 3 TS in BGx even if TS is harmful and risky in many matchups. It's a catchall answer in a very diverse format. Trophy fits that bill.
I'm glad you brought up this point. Have you noticed how IOK outnumbers TS is nearly every deck that uses both (except Shadow for obvious reasons). IOK is obviously far more narrow but it has no drawback. Then why on Earth is the split usually 4iok/2ts rather than reversed? Your logic here is already proven (incorrect) by the way people play TS and IOK.
You can't really compare the IOK/TS split with cards that affect board state. All discard spells are meant to be played early to disrupt the opponent, and usually people have a steady curve so there are good IOK targets. However, once we're in the midgame, the opponent is top decking, and has enought lands to cast any spell they draw, having broader removal spells is more important since you need to answer any large top deck. If anything, having more IOK makes Trophy more necessary since you've already taken their cheap cards and now need to answer their expensive threats. Also, IOK can nab instants and sorceries, which decay does not. This is why IOK feels fine against Jeskai where Decay can feel absolutely useless. It's okay if you don't agree with peoples split between cards. I'm just saying comparing hand disruption with permanent removal isn't an exact 1:1.
For hand disruption, I usually play a 3/3 split or a 4/3 IOK/TS split if I go up to seven (So basically always 3 Thoughtseize). I plan on playing all 4 Trophies and no Decays or Pulses unless I see a need to increase my removal suite.
So I know this is probably going to sound sacrilegious, but have any of you ever considered shaving one Liliana of the Veil?
My shop can have some periods of heavy creature decks where LoTV just really isn't that good. I remember seeing top 8 finish last year where Todd Anderson played 2 LoTV and 1 LtLH.
Jund God's have graced us with Blood Sun this new years.
I saw that card, and I think its a trap.
First of all, it doesn't stop Tron in any way, it only hurts us (Tron lands are mana abilities) and therefore our biggest enemy doesn't get hit.
It does hit Valakut which is great and all but I am still unexcited. Why?
Ravnice bouncelands, shock, fast, checklands all come into play without any drawback. That means this cards supports greedy manabases. The fact that it stops fetches is hurting us basically equally bad.
Tron can actually jam this in their SB and have answers to GQ, Tec edge and Field of Ruin. It would make Tron stronger.
Besides Valakut, don't see a bad matchup where this would give us the edge. We need something against Control and Tron right now.
You have to pick your battles, I wouldn't want this against tron the same way I don't want Fulminator Mage against Valakut, they're different decks that utilize their lands differently. It screws with Jund's fetches, but not nearly as much as Blood Moon, which is a card a lot of people still play. I never liked BM against Tron anyway because unless you have a turn two Tarmogoyf, they just hit 6-8 land drops anyway and start hardcasting stuff. It's not a lock, it just buys time. Time which can't be utilized if you don't have your own lands in order and cant cast your own spells. I think this card will be great if you're looking to beat Valakut (which I am), since it's the more annoying of the two decks as it's harder to interact with.
The top-deck "I win" card is much more aggravating to me than a top-deck Karn, because even though both suck, one is a permanent that can be bolted.
I like Rabblemaster because it gives Jund a strength that separates it from other G/B decks, a clock. When Fatal Push came out Jund was just considered by some to be a worse Abzan. But having Rabblemaster, Ravine, and Bolt give Jund the ability to close out games at a pace Abzan couldn't dream of. You sacrifice the midrange power of Abzan, but playing Against Valakut and Tron isn't nearly as embarrassing since you aren't durdling around with lingering souls.
Make a case for the best sweeper jund has to offer.
Anger of the Gods is most people's go to. The problem (and benefit) I have with it is that it exiles. It's a total nombo with Scooze and Kalitas. Damnation destroys literally everything, but that includes any creatures of your own, and chances are a creature deck you're playing against is going to recover much faster than you. Engineered Explosives not hitting every creature on the battlefield because you have to set it to a specific CMC has always bugged me. Kozilek's Return INSTANT, but only 2 damage leaves a lot living. Languish Yahenni's Expertise Radiant Flames Consume the Meek Sweltering Suns
I've tried them all and there just isn't a perfect sweeper that does everything I want. What are your thoughts and reasons for what you choose to play?
All of your lists seem to have one thing that bothers me, you play 6-8 token generators (Souls, BB) as well as 2-3 mainboard sweepers, in the same deck. to me this feels counterintuitive, to flood the board and then draw wrath spells. Have such issues come up? Or does it seem to work out regardless. I like the idea of running no sweepers with the full 4 Lingering Souls and 4 Bitterblossom. Then go heavy with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Sorin, Solemn Visitor , and Elspeth, Sun's Champion as ways to facilitate a token plan. Plus, Gideon of the Trials can make Bitterblossom's lifeloss negligible.
This is hilarious. It wasn't even a week ago that I was considering dropping red for blue for a GB/x deck and Todd Stevens basically proposed what I was thinking about.
Well I don't think so, I did the math alongside Frank Karsten's article on the hypergeometric function for how many lands you need to consistantly make your landdrops, and we are on the low side of things when you run 23 lands. As we know Jund works great if we can cast multiple spells a turn. But alongside Ravine and the Fastlands, often you will have only 3 untapped lands on turn 4 with 23 lands only, which is really bad in my opinion.
Since you think 23 lands are fine, can you state why?
I'm my personal experience, I flood less with 23 lands and rarely have issues making land drops. There's really no deep answer as to "why," it's just the amount that feels right to me.
Oh I completely agree. Horrible name, amazing card.
Current list for reference: Here
If it's a forced effect like it is now, than the other play may choose which effect exiles them. However if Anger of the God's said you "may" exile them instead, it's your card, you cast it, and you can choose if you wanted to exile them or not. If you choose not, than Kalitas's not-may ability forces the exile and you would get zombies and your opponent would have no say. That was my point, wishing for a sweeper where the exile was a "may."
Why do people keep saying "slight" chance Goyf will survive Languish? Goyf is a 4/5 80-90% of the time so I would say it's more likely than not it will survive languish. The only thing I don't like about Languish is that it usually will kill Kalitas & Scooze, both of which can usually survive Anger of the Gods but also both non-bo with Anger. I wish there was a 3 Mana -3/-3 to play alongside Kalitas to just WRECK creature decks. Cherry on top would be the keyword you "May" exile them to get Dredge when Kalitas isn't out and to get Zombies when he is.
You can't really compare the IOK/TS split with cards that affect board state. All discard spells are meant to be played early to disrupt the opponent, and usually people have a steady curve so there are good IOK targets. However, once we're in the midgame, the opponent is top decking, and has enought lands to cast any spell they draw, having broader removal spells is more important since you need to answer any large top deck. If anything, having more IOK makes Trophy more necessary since you've already taken their cheap cards and now need to answer their expensive threats. Also, IOK can nab instants and sorceries, which decay does not. This is why IOK feels fine against Jeskai where Decay can feel absolutely useless. It's okay if you don't agree with peoples split between cards. I'm just saying comparing hand disruption with permanent removal isn't an exact 1:1.
For hand disruption, I usually play a 3/3 split or a 4/3 IOK/TS split if I go up to seven (So basically always 3 Thoughtseize). I plan on playing all 4 Trophies and no Decays or Pulses unless I see a need to increase my removal suite.
My shop can have some periods of heavy creature decks where LoTV just really isn't that good. I remember seeing top 8 finish last year where Todd Anderson played 2 LoTV and 1 LtLH.
You have to pick your battles, I wouldn't want this against tron the same way I don't want Fulminator Mage against Valakut, they're different decks that utilize their lands differently. It screws with Jund's fetches, but not nearly as much as Blood Moon, which is a card a lot of people still play. I never liked BM against Tron anyway because unless you have a turn two Tarmogoyf, they just hit 6-8 land drops anyway and start hardcasting stuff. It's not a lock, it just buys time. Time which can't be utilized if you don't have your own lands in order and cant cast your own spells. I think this card will be great if you're looking to beat Valakut (which I am), since it's the more annoying of the two decks as it's harder to interact with.
The top-deck "I win" card is much more aggravating to me than a top-deck Karn, because even though both suck, one is a permanent that can be bolted.
Anger of the Gods is most people's go to. The problem (and benefit) I have with it is that it exiles. It's a total nombo with Scooze and Kalitas.
Damnation destroys literally everything, but that includes any creatures of your own, and chances are a creature deck you're playing against is going to recover much faster than you.
Engineered Explosives not hitting every creature on the battlefield because you have to set it to a specific CMC has always bugged me.
Kozilek's Return INSTANT, but only 2 damage leaves a lot living.
Languish
Yahenni's Expertise
Radiant Flames
Consume the Meek
Sweltering Suns
I've tried them all and there just isn't a perfect sweeper that does everything I want. What are your thoughts and reasons for what you choose to play?
I don't see how you can live in an Eldrazi world without Terminate or Path to Exile, perhaps the SB Ceremonious Rejections helps in that matchup, but that still leaves Gurmag Angler and Primeval Titan out there to run free.