I think that's only looking at best case scenarios. Spirits is by far the aggressor in the matchup so our role is to just survive the early onslaught and drag the game out as long as possible where our card advantage and 2 for 1s will pull us ahead. Tapping out for a 2/2 that can't block their creatures in an effort to try to colour screw them or keep them off coco seems extremely risky and the payoff isn't that great either. They can just as easily ignore it completely. Cards like brutality are much more in line with what we're looking to interact with in the matchup; their creatures and their Coco's
Just took down the modern invitational event at my lgs last night and figured I'd share my list/report. The event was invite only and you had to have top 8'd a 1k to qualify so I faced solid opponents which made for tight games. Great crowd and great gameplay overall.
Not sure where this post belongs to be honest, I'm currently on my own version of grixis pyro and while it's not a delver deck it doesn't belong in the shadow or control threads either. Figured this was the closest so let me know if it should be moved.
I've played nearly every variation of grixis in modern you can think of but the most experience I have is with shadow and control. Got tired of the inconsistent nature that shadow can have (most of my losses were to my own deck refusing to cooperate rather than what my opponent did) but also wanted something more proactive than control so this is my attempt to make grixis pyro work. I can go over the decklist in more detail if need be.
Sided out all the non-bolt removal and the Jaces. Didn't have very much to bring in; brutality isn't amazing but it can disrupt them decently on the play and worst case scenario its a very bad burn spell/token for pyro.
Game 2 I surgicaled his amalgams and then snap surgicaled the darkblast, allowing young pyro to run away with the game in short order.
Game 3 I kept a reasonable opening hand although it had no hate cards in it. Ended up drawing a ton of lands and not much else and very quickly lost to his swarm of creatures. On the bright side, this would prove to be my only match loss for the rest of the tournament. As for dredge itself; I don't have much hate for this matchup but then again I can count on one hand the amount of times I've played against dredge in paper over the last 2 years so I'm not overly concerned.
Round 2
Grixis control 2-1
Game 1 was an extremely close game. On my last turn, my opponent was empty handed with an active search and I had a tasigur, pyro and 2 tokens on the field. My opponent was at 4 and I was at 5. My opponent searches on my end step and finds bolt to bring me to 2, then on his turn rips a bolt off the top for the win. Could have gone either way and was a tight race to the finish.
Idea here was to trim on removal (obvious) and bring in more disruption as well as card advantage. Other considerations were disdainful stroke (too narrow), Lili (too low impact) and fulminators (only good vs search). I didn't have the space so those cards didn't make the cut but I could see an argument for any of them.
Game 2 wasn't particularly close, I ripped apart my opponent's hand and resolved multiple ancestrals so he couldn't actually keep up with my card advantage.
Game 3 was also very close but I eventually resolved a Jace. I started fate sealing him and letting him have damnations and removal as he already had some in hand so that was not the fight I was going to pick. I had to play extremely carefully this game and there were several points that, had I played even slightly more greedy/aggressive, my opponent could have clawed back in. Jace eventually ulted for the win.
Round 3
Affinity 2-1
Game 1 was very one sided in my favour. I had all the removal in the world and k command is devastating against them.
Removing the Jaces as they're horrendous here, a squall and 2 discard spells on the play. I really didn't like discard against affinity but I wasn't sure if it would be worse than deprive as I needed an answer to etched champion or ravager before they hit the field. I decided on keeping the counters on the draw and brining the discard back in if it went to game 3.
Game 2 I removed literally everything my opponent played (including spell snare for his turn 2 bitter blossom) but he eventually resolved both champion and cranial plating and I never found a k command. Lost in very short order after that.
In: 2 thoughtseize
Out: 2 deprive
Game 3 was very close as I had my opponent on the ropes but he resolved champion to stabilize/start to race back. I flashed back a brutality to drain my opponent for 2 and that was just enough to change the math to my favour and I won the race.
Round 4
Amulet 2-1
Game 1 I took early control and even killed the first titan my opponent played. I had my opponent at 4 life with multiple attackers (2 tokens and a pyro) and no cards in hand but they ripped a pact for titan and not only stabilized but won the game.
Wasn't entirely sure how to board for the matchup as I not only play against the deck very infrequently but also haven't ever played against it with this deck. The thought process behind surgical was extracting a titan as that should cut them off most if not all of their win conditions. Didn't bring in stroke as I knew from game 1 that my opponent has cavern and a million ways to find it so I would rather not bring in a potentially dead card that specifically only counters titan.
Game 2 I had a very good and aggressive start with a turn 2 pyro. Ended up using fulminator to blow up cavern, k command back the fulminator the next turn and then play it the next to blow up one of his bounce lands which set him back long enough for me to win.
In: 2 disdainful stroke
Out: 2 surgical
Ended up deciding against the surgical plan as I did find it game 2 but it sat dead in my hand the entire game. Wanted more live cards even with the potential for cavern.
Game 3 was much closer but my opponent still couldn't quite get there. Got double pyro out early and my opponent was unable to deal with it. In both games 2 and 3 deprive was an absolute all star, countering pacts and titans alike.
Round 5
ID into top 8
Hard fought game but neither of us got there (everyone was locked in for top 8 so we all drew in)
Top 8
Grixis Pyro (me)
Amulet
Amulet (my opponent from round 4 but we didn't get paired up)
Lantern
Affinity
Death and Taxes
Coco Counters
Abzan
Quarterfinals
Amulet 2-0
I went into top 8 as the absolute lowest seed so of course I was playing against the guy in first (this also meant I was on the draw for every match in the top 8 including this one). My opponent was on the play but had to mull to 5 and led with the scout which I pushed. On my next turn I cast thoughtseize to forcibly mull them to 4 and then jammed a pyro. My opponent soon found explosives which he cast for 2 but by that point I already had 2 tokens out and slammed a tasigur next turn and his explosives could no longer save him.
Learned from my previous game and didn't bother with the surgicals this time.
Game 2 I snared his explore on turn 2, then got double pyro going and it was too much for my opponent to deal with. In total I think this entire match must have taken about 10 minutes and I was confident going into the next round. In hindsight I should have absolutely cut a spell snare as I didn't realize explore is literally the only target for it (aside from EE for 2 I guess) but live and learn.
Semi finals
Death and taxes 2-1
Game 1 my opponent has an aggressive start and I nearly stabilize with tasigur but my opponent rips a path off the top and that was the end of it.
I know my opponent has aether vial but I thought deprive is good if he doesn't or I can also use to protect my threats. In hindsight I should have kept in the thoughtseize over 1 deprive but the deprives did come in handy so it wasn't a complete punt.
Game 2 was very quick as I resolved an early pyro and then proceeded to kill all of my opponent's stuff every time it hit the field. He didn't have a creature stick around longer than a single turn this game and we quickly moved on to game 3
Game 3 was really stupid on my part and this is part of mental fatigue setting in and just general carelessness. On turn 3 I didn't have much going on so I flashed in the staticaster to use my mana and we kept playing from there. He never played anything the staticaster could kill (he played several scullers, displacers and a strangler or 2) so for about 7 turns it sat there unused and I just kept pushing it further and further to the side of the board to make room for double pyro, tasigur, snapcaster and a bunch of tokens. At one point my opponent flashed in thalia to block a pyro and I COMPLETELY forgot my staticaster was even on the board anymore at this point and my pyro died needlessly. Then later I was one point off of lethal as my opponent had one too many blockers. I was sitting there trying to figure out the correct line when I finally glanced at my staticaster, glanced at thalia, back to my staticaster and I immediately felt like an idiot. I killed the thalia and won the game there and my opponent and I had a good laugh about it after (it's not a misplay if you win, it's just elaborate bm)
Finals
Coco counters 2-0
Game 1 my opponent makes infinite life on turn 5 and goes to scoop up his cards expecting me to concede but I just say "that's fine" and he immediately gets suspicious. My next turn I play a Jace (I have 2 pyros and a lot of tokens) and my opponent now has to change gears. He flies over with birds combined with township to start swinging at Jace through my army of tokens but I eventually bounce the birds when Jace gets low and then bolt it when he replayed it. After that I just fatesealed my opponent until it was time to ult and that was the end of it.
I've never been a fan of boarding in dispel in this matchup for company as I just want to maximize the number of ways I can impact the board or strip cards from my opponent's hand before he gets value out of them via finks or witness. That may or may not be correct but it's the way I've approached it with both shadow and control and I have a very good winrate against the deck with either so I was confident in winning this match.
Game 2 my opponent never got to stick any more than one creature at a time and never assembled the combo through my removal. I had an early board of pyro, 2 tokens and snap but my opponent cast a pontiff to wipe the board. By that point he was already at a very low life total though so I just untapped, cast a tasigur and he was forced to start chump blocking each turn. To be fair, my opponent had 2 unfortunate companies (only one hit each) which was definitely good for me even though I had more than enough removal. His third company finally paid off big but by that point it was too little too late.
There's some very minor changes I might make to the list but overall I'm very happy with the core list and it's been performing very well for me.
My first impression of Jace is that you would need to rework the strategy entirely to make Jace work. I'm pretty sure you would need 4-8 discards spells and Cliques on top of it to be able to land Jace on t4 safely even half of the time.
I imagine there's going to be two ways to get Jace to work. There's this method you mentioned where landing him asap is crucial to just running away with the game on the spot. In that kind of list I could definitely see 4 Jace working actually as it's the payoff spell for all your hand disruption.
The other option is slotting him into "regular" control lists that aren't looking to play him on turn 4 (unless the opportunity is there) but rather as a win con that you play turn 7, 8 or later. In that kind of list running less Jaces and more removal/counters makes more sense. Time will tell which list is correct but both have merit. I think if you're already including discard that having threats to capitalize on that as well such as young pyro also makes sense.
How are you doing with opt, are you running 4/2 split with visions or vice versa?
After experimenting with the 18 lands and 2 cantrips list I've gone back to 19 lands and run the full playset of opt right now with no visions. I'm really liking the current setup. I got more value out of having the additional cantrips when I used to play pyro in the board but without them I feel it creates a bit too much air in the deck and I'm spinning my wheels more than I would like. If I was to go back up to 6 cantrips (excluding scour) I would most likely favour opt as a 4/2 split personally
Now, does anyone have thoughts on chart a course instead of running the two of opts/visions list?
It gets tricky comparing the two since opt/visions are cantrips whereas course is card advantage.
Opt/visions are one mana spells that replace themselves and in the case of visions helps you set up future draws to either ensure you hit land drops or try to prevent flooding. On that note, I've gone back and forth between the 2 myself and I tend to like opt because of the scry before draw (running as many fetches as we do, getting that second card off the scry can be difficult to wait on) but always seeing 3 cards can't be understated either.
As for chart a course, it's an extra mana and requires us to be attacking to get the most use out of. With our very low threat count that's often easier said than done. If we're attacking with our creatures we're generally pretty far ahead already or we're in a matchup where we need to be aggressive. In either case I don't see what chart a course is doing for us at that point, I'd rather have the earlier or cheaper spell personally. If we needed raw card advantage I'd rather run a more synergistic spell with the deck like painful truths which lets us lose life and the number of cards we get is not dictated by creatures or lack of.
Why doesn't opt work with MD LotV? I don't see much of a difference between Opt and Serum Visions here.
Part of the strength of opt is playing at instant speed on your opponents turn whereas with lili you and your opponent are both going to be hellbent most of the time. You'll be forced to cast it mainphase before upticking her which basically makes it a sorcery anyway.
As others have said I think I'm definitely going to be playing this but replacing sleight instead. Most likely 4/2 split favouring visions at first and then play with the numbers depending on which is more consistent.
With av the absolute lowest I would go is 3. If you go less than that the chances of having it early where it matters most is very low and it's a terrible top deck mid to late game unless it's a super grindy matchup. If you're going down to 2 I would just play another card draw spell honestly. Same with denial, not very good since it's a) a one of and b) even if you draw your one of its very difficult to have it be anything more than a force spike. The extra mana for a constant effect in negate or countersquall seems better.
These arguments make absolutely no sense. Just as having more copies of any card makes it more likely for you to have it in your opener, it will also make it more likely that you draw into one later in the game. There is no way to cheat this equation. Why is playing 2 AVs so disagreeable, while no one even questions it that the stock Grixis lists play 2 Pushes and 2 Snares - etc. Playing 1, 2 or 3 copies of AV is perfectly sensible since it is high variance card - very bad in some MUs, very good in others. I absolutely detest having 2 AVs in my opener, which is why I trimmed down to 2 copies from the previous 3.
Again, why would a spell being 1-off make it intrinsicly any worse than some other card? These claims make no logical sense. This deck is capable of letting us see a huge portion of our cards once we enter the mid and late game, which is why having many different kinds of spells with minor differences gives you better selection in comparison to playing only 4-offs. Obviously there is no guarantee you will get to turn Denial on very fast, but the spell can easily trade up on mana even as a force spike, especially against decks like Burn and UR storm.
If it wasn't obvious from the alternations I made to deck, I was desperate to make the deck less clunky with these additions. The difference between 2 and 1 mana and the difference between the 2nd AV and an action spell is monumental in Modern. So far I have liked these cards. Every card has its bad MU and they will almost all get sided out sometimes. There are no sacred cows.
I actually went 4-0 today in our Modern Wednesday, on top of the couple of 4-1 comp. league finishes in MODO:
Yes you're more likely to draw them later in the game that's part of the drawback of the card, that was never my argument. I said you want it early game and want as many copies as possible or none at all because it is ONLY great in the early game and at no other time barring very specific matchups. Look at is this way:
Turn 1 av: amazing card that does a lot for the deck
Turn 6 av: terrible card and might not even come off suspend by the time the game is over one way or another.
The effectiveness of specific cards can change drastically over the course of the game. The same principle applies to discard like thoughtseize and inquisition. Those cards are amazing in the first few turns and absolutely horrendous top decks late game. Do discard heavy decks run 2 discard spells and just cross their fingers to hope it pays off? No, the vast majority (gds, jund, abzan, 8 rack whatever) run anywhere from 5 to 8+ copies of these effects knowing full well that they'll be useless late game. The sheer power level offsets this and it's considered worth running the risk. I play a lot of deaths shadow right now and even with 6 copies of that effect and multiple ways to filter through my deck I don't always see those cards on time. The other cards you mentioned, snare and push are much different in their application in that you can immediately benefit from the card when you draw it. The power level of these cards is the same on turn 1 that they are on turn 6. If your argument was to cut av entirely I'd be on board with that, I can see other cards being far more useful. But shaving them too low is like having a single leyline of the void in your sideboard for graveyard hate: you're going to absolutely hate that it's in your deck if it's not exactly in your opening hand.
The one of's are not consistent that's the problem. In the deck you posted the vast majority of the time denial is only going to be force spike. Is force spike (for noncreatures only) really higher in power level than the other options? I'd argue not, which is why mana tithe doesn't see play in uw control or jeskai control to have "many different spells with minor differences." Including a wide variety of cards sounds great in theory but the problem is they're all situational and you run the risk of having a hand full of dead cards. This is a huge problem for a reactive control deck as you can't rely on board presence to hold you over since you typically won't have any. Having a bunch of cards that depend on specific situations to arise that may not be common (turning on stubborn denial) is going to make the deck more clunky, not less.
There many not be any sacred cows you're right but some cards are always going to be useful and some cards are going to wildly spike based on the matchup: this is what the sideboard is for, to include those silver bullet cards. For example how many times has anyone here sided out snapcaster mage in a matchup? Even when he's not great he's still good and the same can't be said for situational cards.
I'm all for innovation and revisiting the stock list but putting in main deck discard, more delve creatures, stubborn denial, etc at what point do you just become deaths shadow? Nothing wrong with that since it's an amazing deck but you might as well just adopt their stock list and work from there. Removing shadow from that list and using more delve threats and slow reactive cards doesn't seem like a good idea.
Also by increasing the amount of delve threats, I think you become far too reliant on the graveyard and you'll get hosed by graveyard hate that practically every single deck is packing and you're gonna struggle closing out games. Just my 2 cents
Hey all, figured I'd introduce myself here. I don't post too often on these forums but I was on Corey's Grixis control list and just started cruel control not too long ago to satisfy my inner control Timmy. I love Bolas so actually casting him has been very rewarding, tiered decks be damned. I've been experimenting with my deck and here's the list so far. Just came back from a modern fnm type event and came 7th out of 17 going 3-1 so a decent showing. Write up is below the list:
My deck was the above but -1 brutality and +1 dispel. I changed that after the event tonight to see if that improves my burn matchup at all since it's been absolutely abysmal for me.
Round 1: Jund Burn 0-2
Interesting deck, was mostly red green but splashing black instead of white. The only creature different than usual was vexing devils and as far as I could tell the black was there for claim/fame which actually gave him some resiliency so it was interesting to play against.
Game 1
Actually lasted much longer than I thought I would but I ran low on cards and couldn't keep up. With no clock on my end he was free to just keep jamming card after card at me and it got rough
Basically just cut the slowest cards and the weaker of my win conditions against burn since the life gain from Cruel makes it strictly better
Game 2
Got ran over again, never had a chance to get set up. Was caught in an awkward position at 2 life with an eidolon in play and terminate in hand. I hate this matchup lol
Round 2: Storm 2-1
Game 1
I countered the first gifts but it wasn't enough and he eventually found the second one and I had nothing left for it
Again just cutting the slow cards in favour of more interaction. Rakdos charm would be good in response to past in flames and could potentially be a cute way to win if he goes nuts with goblin tokens
Game 2
Early snapcaster and a lot of permission to back it up got me the win, surgicalled his gifts after I countered it the first time which slowed him down tremendously
Game 3
This was a long one, I had 5 mana up along with jace, dispel, surgical and a land and he had an electromancer with 4 lands. I figured I had to try to get some cards so I slammed jace and held up dispel. On his turn he got me down to 5 with a grape shot and then cast past in flames. Unfortunately dispel was dead in my hand so in response I surgicalled his grapeshot instead. He tried to swan song and I used the dispel on that instead. I removed it and went through his deck and found he was down to just that one grapeshot and the only other storm card was goblin tokens. If I could keep jace alive he couldn't kill me so I crossed my fingers and hoped. My opponent then went off and created 36 goblin tokens. I upticked jace on my turn and my opponent went to read it because I don't think he realized it basically locked him out of the game. I drew a logic knot and just held up mana for that while attacking with creeping tar pit every turn. He eventually tried to bounce jace with his one echoing truth and he scooped when I countered it. Drew quite a crowd on that last game too it was very tense until I removed grapeshot
Round 3: Ad Nauseam 2-0
Game 1
Got incredibly lucky this game and won even though I thought for sure it was basically a straight to sideboard type of game. He kept a hand of every mana accelerant possible and ad nauseam. I tried to play an ambush viper turn 2 but he actually caught me with censor (didn't expect that one at all). He eventually ran out of cards though and cast ad nauseam by itself to refill which I countered. I started beating down with tar pit and snapcaster but he had unlife in play so it was an extremely slow clock. My opponent bought several turns for himself too with casting angel's grace to stay at exactly 1 life. I finally got him down to -1 and I had jace out. Eventually ulted him bringing in Bolas which destroyed unlife for the win on the spot. I got very lucky here early, by the end though even if he had drawn it I had virtually every counterspell I could ask for so he would need at least a pact or 2 for back up.
Took out the removal and expensive counters along with the weaker of my win conditions. Brought in almost every card in my sideboard, more or less just replacing bad cards rather than putting the best ones in
Game 2
Very smooth game for me, kept him low on mana by either countering or blowing up his mana rocks. Had snapcaster and fulminator out early as clocks and they eventually got there
Round 4: Goblins 2-0
This match was especially sweet for me; earlier in the night someone mentioned that there was someone playing Bolas tonight and he said something to the effect of "if you actually play Bolas in modern you're an idiot" and acted very smug about it.
Game 1
Easy game for me, resolved about 3 visions which got me so much card advantage that the few times he ever resolved a spell it was immediately killed. Snapcaster beats eventually got there
Took out one of the win conditions as always (depends on the matchup) and brought in every sweeper I could get my hands on.
Game 2
Now at the start of this game I'll give my opponent the benefit of the doubt but here's what happened; he finished shuffling before I did and had his deck out in front of me. I was in the middle of pile shuffling but to make things go faster I cut his deck and continued shuffling mine. When I looked back up he was shuffling again and I asked him, "going down to 6?" To which he said no he just wants to shuffle it again just to be sure. Now maybe he looked at the starting hand maybe not but it wasn't worth the hassle so I let it slide and just played the best I could. I had to mulligan down to 5 this game too but eventually got there. I had 2 damnations in my hand by turn 2 so I pitched one to brutality. I guess due to this my opponent overextended later into a jace thinking he was safe and got bushwhacker out there with 3 other creatures. I used cryptic to tap his team and then cast my other damnation on my turn which basically sealed the game even though it took another 3 turns to get there. Jace eventually ulted getting cruel ultimatum, my opponent was at 10 so I just showed him I would get back snapcaster with it to flash it back and he scooped. Goblins may be aggressive but due to most of their damage coming from creatures it's far more manageable than burn
Overall thoughts:
Burn was a miserable matchup as always and not quite sure what to do about it. It's tricky with grixis colours and being a slow deck but hopefully the extra brutality helps out. I'm also tempted to just give up on that matchup altogether and use the sideboard slots to give me an edge in closer matchups.
Jace is an absolute all star and I would never go below 2 in this deck. He consistently overperformed today and on other days gives me main deck outs to lingering souls and the like.
I used to run more creatures in this deck briefly but was thoroughly unimpressed with everything I tried (tasigur, kalitas, etc) since the overall creature count is so low that everyone has plenty of removal for it. I've been having better luck with a spell/planeswalker focus but it does worsen my combo matchups a bit since I lack an efficient clock
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Just took down the modern invitational event at my lgs last night and figured I'd share my list/report. The event was invite only and you had to have top 8'd a 1k to qualify so I faced solid opponents which made for tight games. Great crowd and great gameplay overall.
Not sure where this post belongs to be honest, I'm currently on my own version of grixis pyro and while it's not a delver deck it doesn't belong in the shadow or control threads either. Figured this was the closest so let me know if it should be moved.
I've played nearly every variation of grixis in modern you can think of but the most experience I have is with shadow and control. Got tired of the inconsistent nature that shadow can have (most of my losses were to my own deck refusing to cooperate rather than what my opponent did) but also wanted something more proactive than control so this is my attempt to make grixis pyro work. I can go over the decklist in more detail if need be.
Decklist:
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Darkslick Shores
2x Spirebluff Canal
1x Blood Crypt
2x Steam Vents
2x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
Creatures (10)
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Opt
4x Serum Visions
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Fatal Push
1x Spell Snare
1x Terminate
1x Dreadbore
2x Deprive
1x Countersquall
2x Kolaghan's Command
3x Ancestral Vision
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Dispel
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Collective Brutality
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Fulminator Mage
Anyway here's the match report:
Round 1
Dredge 1-2
Game 1 was very one sided as most fair decks are versus dredge.
In: 2 surgical, 2 brutality, 1 Lili, 1 staticaster
Out: 2 push, 1 dreadbore, 2 Jace, 1 terminate
Sided out all the non-bolt removal and the Jaces. Didn't have very much to bring in; brutality isn't amazing but it can disrupt them decently on the play and worst case scenario its a very bad burn spell/token for pyro.
Game 2 I surgicaled his amalgams and then snap surgicaled the darkblast, allowing young pyro to run away with the game in short order.
Game 3 I kept a reasonable opening hand although it had no hate cards in it. Ended up drawing a ton of lands and not much else and very quickly lost to his swarm of creatures. On the bright side, this would prove to be my only match loss for the rest of the tournament. As for dredge itself; I don't have much hate for this matchup but then again I can count on one hand the amount of times I've played against dredge in paper over the last 2 years so I'm not overly concerned.
Round 2
Grixis control 2-1
Game 1 was an extremely close game. On my last turn, my opponent was empty handed with an active search and I had a tasigur, pyro and 2 tokens on the field. My opponent was at 4 and I was at 5. My opponent searches on my end step and finds bolt to bring me to 2, then on his turn rips a bolt off the top for the win. Could have gone either way and was a tight race to the finish.
In: 3 ancestral, 1 dispel, 2 brutality
Out: 1 terminate, 1 dreadbore, 2 push, 2 bolt
Idea here was to trim on removal (obvious) and bring in more disruption as well as card advantage. Other considerations were disdainful stroke (too narrow), Lili (too low impact) and fulminators (only good vs search). I didn't have the space so those cards didn't make the cut but I could see an argument for any of them.
Game 2 wasn't particularly close, I ripped apart my opponent's hand and resolved multiple ancestrals so he couldn't actually keep up with my card advantage.
Game 3 was also very close but I eventually resolved a Jace. I started fate sealing him and letting him have damnations and removal as he already had some in hand so that was not the fight I was going to pick. I had to play extremely carefully this game and there were several points that, had I played even slightly more greedy/aggressive, my opponent could have clawed back in. Jace eventually ulted for the win.
Round 3
Affinity 2-1
Game 1 was very one sided in my favour. I had all the removal in the world and k command is devastating against them.
In: 1 rejection, 2 brutality, 1 Lili, 1 staticaster
Out: 2 Jace, 2 thoughtseize, 1 countersquall
Removing the Jaces as they're horrendous here, a squall and 2 discard spells on the play. I really didn't like discard against affinity but I wasn't sure if it would be worse than deprive as I needed an answer to etched champion or ravager before they hit the field. I decided on keeping the counters on the draw and brining the discard back in if it went to game 3.
Game 2 I removed literally everything my opponent played (including spell snare for his turn 2 bitter blossom) but he eventually resolved both champion and cranial plating and I never found a k command. Lost in very short order after that.
In: 2 thoughtseize
Out: 2 deprive
Game 3 was very close as I had my opponent on the ropes but he resolved champion to stabilize/start to race back. I flashed back a brutality to drain my opponent for 2 and that was just enough to change the math to my favour and I won the race.
Round 4
Amulet 2-1
Game 1 I took early control and even killed the first titan my opponent played. I had my opponent at 4 life with multiple attackers (2 tokens and a pyro) and no cards in hand but they ripped a pact for titan and not only stabilized but won the game.
In: 2 surgical, 2 brutality, 2 fulminator
Out: 2 push, 2 jace, 1 dreadbore, 1 bolt
Wasn't entirely sure how to board for the matchup as I not only play against the deck very infrequently but also haven't ever played against it with this deck. The thought process behind surgical was extracting a titan as that should cut them off most if not all of their win conditions. Didn't bring in stroke as I knew from game 1 that my opponent has cavern and a million ways to find it so I would rather not bring in a potentially dead card that specifically only counters titan.
Game 2 I had a very good and aggressive start with a turn 2 pyro. Ended up using fulminator to blow up cavern, k command back the fulminator the next turn and then play it the next to blow up one of his bounce lands which set him back long enough for me to win.
In: 2 disdainful stroke
Out: 2 surgical
Ended up deciding against the surgical plan as I did find it game 2 but it sat dead in my hand the entire game. Wanted more live cards even with the potential for cavern.
Game 3 was much closer but my opponent still couldn't quite get there. Got double pyro out early and my opponent was unable to deal with it. In both games 2 and 3 deprive was an absolute all star, countering pacts and titans alike.
Round 5
ID into top 8
Hard fought game but neither of us got there (everyone was locked in for top 8 so we all drew in)
Top 8
Grixis Pyro (me)
Amulet
Amulet (my opponent from round 4 but we didn't get paired up)
Lantern
Affinity
Death and Taxes
Coco Counters
Abzan
Quarterfinals
Amulet 2-0
I went into top 8 as the absolute lowest seed so of course I was playing against the guy in first (this also meant I was on the draw for every match in the top 8 including this one). My opponent was on the play but had to mull to 5 and led with the scout which I pushed. On my next turn I cast thoughtseize to forcibly mull them to 4 and then jammed a pyro. My opponent soon found explosives which he cast for 2 but by that point I already had 2 tokens out and slammed a tasigur next turn and his explosives could no longer save him.
In: 2 stroke, 2 brutality, 2 fulminator
Out: 2 push, 2 jace, 1 dreadbore, 1 bolt
Learned from my previous game and didn't bother with the surgicals this time.
Game 2 I snared his explore on turn 2, then got double pyro going and it was too much for my opponent to deal with. In total I think this entire match must have taken about 10 minutes and I was confident going into the next round. In hindsight I should have absolutely cut a spell snare as I didn't realize explore is literally the only target for it (aside from EE for 2 I guess) but live and learn.
Semi finals
Death and taxes 2-1
Game 1 my opponent has an aggressive start and I nearly stabilize with tasigur but my opponent rips a path off the top and that was the end of it.
In: 2 brutality, 1 Lili, 1 staticaster
Out: 1 squall, 2 Jace, 1 thoughtseize
I know my opponent has aether vial but I thought deprive is good if he doesn't or I can also use to protect my threats. In hindsight I should have kept in the thoughtseize over 1 deprive but the deprives did come in handy so it wasn't a complete punt.
Game 2 was very quick as I resolved an early pyro and then proceeded to kill all of my opponent's stuff every time it hit the field. He didn't have a creature stick around longer than a single turn this game and we quickly moved on to game 3
Game 3 was really stupid on my part and this is part of mental fatigue setting in and just general carelessness. On turn 3 I didn't have much going on so I flashed in the staticaster to use my mana and we kept playing from there. He never played anything the staticaster could kill (he played several scullers, displacers and a strangler or 2) so for about 7 turns it sat there unused and I just kept pushing it further and further to the side of the board to make room for double pyro, tasigur, snapcaster and a bunch of tokens. At one point my opponent flashed in thalia to block a pyro and I COMPLETELY forgot my staticaster was even on the board anymore at this point and my pyro died needlessly. Then later I was one point off of lethal as my opponent had one too many blockers. I was sitting there trying to figure out the correct line when I finally glanced at my staticaster, glanced at thalia, back to my staticaster and I immediately felt like an idiot. I killed the thalia and won the game there and my opponent and I had a good laugh about it after (it's not a misplay if you win, it's just elaborate bm)
Finals
Coco counters 2-0
Game 1 my opponent makes infinite life on turn 5 and goes to scoop up his cards expecting me to concede but I just say "that's fine" and he immediately gets suspicious. My next turn I play a Jace (I have 2 pyros and a lot of tokens) and my opponent now has to change gears. He flies over with birds combined with township to start swinging at Jace through my army of tokens but I eventually bounce the birds when Jace gets low and then bolt it when he replayed it. After that I just fatesealed my opponent until it was time to ult and that was the end of it.
In: 2 brutality, 1 Lili, 1 staticaster
Out: 2 deprive, 1 squall, 1 inquisition
I've never been a fan of boarding in dispel in this matchup for company as I just want to maximize the number of ways I can impact the board or strip cards from my opponent's hand before he gets value out of them via finks or witness. That may or may not be correct but it's the way I've approached it with both shadow and control and I have a very good winrate against the deck with either so I was confident in winning this match.
Game 2 my opponent never got to stick any more than one creature at a time and never assembled the combo through my removal. I had an early board of pyro, 2 tokens and snap but my opponent cast a pontiff to wipe the board. By that point he was already at a very low life total though so I just untapped, cast a tasigur and he was forced to start chump blocking each turn. To be fair, my opponent had 2 unfortunate companies (only one hit each) which was definitely good for me even though I had more than enough removal. His third company finally paid off big but by that point it was too little too late.
There's some very minor changes I might make to the list but overall I'm very happy with the core list and it's been performing very well for me.
1
I imagine there's going to be two ways to get Jace to work. There's this method you mentioned where landing him asap is crucial to just running away with the game on the spot. In that kind of list I could definitely see 4 Jace working actually as it's the payoff spell for all your hand disruption.
The other option is slotting him into "regular" control lists that aren't looking to play him on turn 4 (unless the opportunity is there) but rather as a win con that you play turn 7, 8 or later. In that kind of list running less Jaces and more removal/counters makes more sense. Time will tell which list is correct but both have merit. I think if you're already including discard that having threats to capitalize on that as well such as young pyro also makes sense.
1
After experimenting with the 18 lands and 2 cantrips list I've gone back to 19 lands and run the full playset of opt right now with no visions. I'm really liking the current setup. I got more value out of having the additional cantrips when I used to play pyro in the board but without them I feel it creates a bit too much air in the deck and I'm spinning my wheels more than I would like. If I was to go back up to 6 cantrips (excluding scour) I would most likely favour opt as a 4/2 split personally
1
It gets tricky comparing the two since opt/visions are cantrips whereas course is card advantage.
Opt/visions are one mana spells that replace themselves and in the case of visions helps you set up future draws to either ensure you hit land drops or try to prevent flooding. On that note, I've gone back and forth between the 2 myself and I tend to like opt because of the scry before draw (running as many fetches as we do, getting that second card off the scry can be difficult to wait on) but always seeing 3 cards can't be understated either.
As for chart a course, it's an extra mana and requires us to be attacking to get the most use out of. With our very low threat count that's often easier said than done. If we're attacking with our creatures we're generally pretty far ahead already or we're in a matchup where we need to be aggressive. In either case I don't see what chart a course is doing for us at that point, I'd rather have the earlier or cheaper spell personally. If we needed raw card advantage I'd rather run a more synergistic spell with the deck like painful truths which lets us lose life and the number of cards we get is not dictated by creatures or lack of.
1
Part of the strength of opt is playing at instant speed on your opponents turn whereas with lili you and your opponent are both going to be hellbent most of the time. You'll be forced to cast it mainphase before upticking her which basically makes it a sorcery anyway.
As others have said I think I'm definitely going to be playing this but replacing sleight instead. Most likely 4/2 split favouring visions at first and then play with the numbers depending on which is more consistent.
1
Yes you're more likely to draw them later in the game that's part of the drawback of the card, that was never my argument. I said you want it early game and want as many copies as possible or none at all because it is ONLY great in the early game and at no other time barring very specific matchups. Look at is this way:
Turn 1 av: amazing card that does a lot for the deck
Turn 6 av: terrible card and might not even come off suspend by the time the game is over one way or another.
The effectiveness of specific cards can change drastically over the course of the game. The same principle applies to discard like thoughtseize and inquisition. Those cards are amazing in the first few turns and absolutely horrendous top decks late game. Do discard heavy decks run 2 discard spells and just cross their fingers to hope it pays off? No, the vast majority (gds, jund, abzan, 8 rack whatever) run anywhere from 5 to 8+ copies of these effects knowing full well that they'll be useless late game. The sheer power level offsets this and it's considered worth running the risk. I play a lot of deaths shadow right now and even with 6 copies of that effect and multiple ways to filter through my deck I don't always see those cards on time. The other cards you mentioned, snare and push are much different in their application in that you can immediately benefit from the card when you draw it. The power level of these cards is the same on turn 1 that they are on turn 6. If your argument was to cut av entirely I'd be on board with that, I can see other cards being far more useful. But shaving them too low is like having a single leyline of the void in your sideboard for graveyard hate: you're going to absolutely hate that it's in your deck if it's not exactly in your opening hand.
The one of's are not consistent that's the problem. In the deck you posted the vast majority of the time denial is only going to be force spike. Is force spike (for noncreatures only) really higher in power level than the other options? I'd argue not, which is why mana tithe doesn't see play in uw control or jeskai control to have "many different spells with minor differences." Including a wide variety of cards sounds great in theory but the problem is they're all situational and you run the risk of having a hand full of dead cards. This is a huge problem for a reactive control deck as you can't rely on board presence to hold you over since you typically won't have any. Having a bunch of cards that depend on specific situations to arise that may not be common (turning on stubborn denial) is going to make the deck more clunky, not less.
There many not be any sacred cows you're right but some cards are always going to be useful and some cards are going to wildly spike based on the matchup: this is what the sideboard is for, to include those silver bullet cards. For example how many times has anyone here sided out snapcaster mage in a matchup? Even when he's not great he's still good and the same can't be said for situational cards.
That being said congratulations on your finishes.
3
Also by increasing the amount of delve threats, I think you become far too reliant on the graveyard and you'll get hosed by graveyard hate that practically every single deck is packing and you're gonna struggle closing out games. Just my 2 cents
1
1 Blood Crypt
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Cryptic Command
3 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Logic Knot
1 Negate
2 Spell Snare
3 Terminate
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Serum Visions
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
My deck was the above but -1 brutality and +1 dispel. I changed that after the event tonight to see if that improves my burn matchup at all since it's been absolutely abysmal for me.
Round 1: Jund Burn 0-2
Interesting deck, was mostly red green but splashing black instead of white. The only creature different than usual was vexing devils and as far as I could tell the black was there for claim/fame which actually gave him some resiliency so it was interesting to play against.
Game 1
Actually lasted much longer than I thought I would but I ran low on cards and couldn't keep up. With no clock on my end he was free to just keep jamming card after card at me and it got rough
Sideboarding
- 4 ancestral
- Bolas
+ 2 dispel
+ 2 brutality
+ 1 engineered explosives
Basically just cut the slowest cards and the weaker of my win conditions against burn since the life gain from Cruel makes it strictly better
Game 2
Got ran over again, never had a chance to get set up. Was caught in an awkward position at 2 life with an eidolon in play and terminate in hand. I hate this matchup lol
Round 2: Storm 2-1
Game 1
I countered the first gifts but it wasn't enough and he eventually found the second one and I had nothing left for it
Sideboard
- 4 ancestral
- 2 cryptic command
- 1 Bolas
+ 2 brutality
+ 2 surgical
+ 2 dispel
+ 1 rakdos charm
Again just cutting the slow cards in favour of more interaction. Rakdos charm would be good in response to past in flames and could potentially be a cute way to win if he goes nuts with goblin tokens
Game 2
Early snapcaster and a lot of permission to back it up got me the win, surgicalled his gifts after I countered it the first time which slowed him down tremendously
Game 3
This was a long one, I had 5 mana up along with jace, dispel, surgical and a land and he had an electromancer with 4 lands. I figured I had to try to get some cards so I slammed jace and held up dispel. On his turn he got me down to 5 with a grape shot and then cast past in flames. Unfortunately dispel was dead in my hand so in response I surgicalled his grapeshot instead. He tried to swan song and I used the dispel on that instead. I removed it and went through his deck and found he was down to just that one grapeshot and the only other storm card was goblin tokens. If I could keep jace alive he couldn't kill me so I crossed my fingers and hoped. My opponent then went off and created 36 goblin tokens. I upticked jace on my turn and my opponent went to read it because I don't think he realized it basically locked him out of the game. I drew a logic knot and just held up mana for that while attacking with creeping tar pit every turn. He eventually tried to bounce jace with his one echoing truth and he scooped when I countered it. Drew quite a crowd on that last game too it was very tense until I removed grapeshot
Round 3: Ad Nauseam 2-0
Game 1
Got incredibly lucky this game and won even though I thought for sure it was basically a straight to sideboard type of game. He kept a hand of every mana accelerant possible and ad nauseam. I tried to play an ambush viper turn 2 but he actually caught me with censor (didn't expect that one at all). He eventually ran out of cards though and cast ad nauseam by itself to refill which I countered. I started beating down with tar pit and snapcaster but he had unlife in play so it was an extremely slow clock. My opponent bought several turns for himself too with casting angel's grace to stay at exactly 1 life. I finally got him down to -1 and I had jace out. Eventually ulted him bringing in Bolas which destroyed unlife for the win on the spot. I got very lucky here early, by the end though even if he had drawn it I had virtually every counterspell I could ask for so he would need at least a pact or 2 for back up.
Sideboard
- 4 ancestral
- 3 terminate
- 2 fatal push
- 2 cryptic
- cruel ultimatum
+ 2 dispel
+ 2 brutality
+ 2 rejection
+ 1 explosives
+ 2 fulminator mage
+ 2 surgical
+ 1 rakdos charm
Took out the removal and expensive counters along with the weaker of my win conditions. Brought in almost every card in my sideboard, more or less just replacing bad cards rather than putting the best ones in
Game 2
Very smooth game for me, kept him low on mana by either countering or blowing up his mana rocks. Had snapcaster and fulminator out early as clocks and they eventually got there
Round 4: Goblins 2-0
This match was especially sweet for me; earlier in the night someone mentioned that there was someone playing Bolas tonight and he said something to the effect of "if you actually play Bolas in modern you're an idiot" and acted very smug about it.
Game 1
Easy game for me, resolved about 3 visions which got me so much card advantage that the few times he ever resolved a spell it was immediately killed. Snapcaster beats eventually got there
Sideboard
- 2 spell snare
- 2 cryptic
- bolas
- negate
+ 2 damnation
+ 2 brutality
+ 1 anger
+ 1 explosives
Took out one of the win conditions as always (depends on the matchup) and brought in every sweeper I could get my hands on.
Game 2
Now at the start of this game I'll give my opponent the benefit of the doubt but here's what happened; he finished shuffling before I did and had his deck out in front of me. I was in the middle of pile shuffling but to make things go faster I cut his deck and continued shuffling mine. When I looked back up he was shuffling again and I asked him, "going down to 6?" To which he said no he just wants to shuffle it again just to be sure. Now maybe he looked at the starting hand maybe not but it wasn't worth the hassle so I let it slide and just played the best I could. I had to mulligan down to 5 this game too but eventually got there. I had 2 damnations in my hand by turn 2 so I pitched one to brutality. I guess due to this my opponent overextended later into a jace thinking he was safe and got bushwhacker out there with 3 other creatures. I used cryptic to tap his team and then cast my other damnation on my turn which basically sealed the game even though it took another 3 turns to get there. Jace eventually ulted getting cruel ultimatum, my opponent was at 10 so I just showed him I would get back snapcaster with it to flash it back and he scooped. Goblins may be aggressive but due to most of their damage coming from creatures it's far more manageable than burn
Overall thoughts:
Burn was a miserable matchup as always and not quite sure what to do about it. It's tricky with grixis colours and being a slow deck but hopefully the extra brutality helps out. I'm also tempted to just give up on that matchup altogether and use the sideboard slots to give me an edge in closer matchups.
Jace is an absolute all star and I would never go below 2 in this deck. He consistently overperformed today and on other days gives me main deck outs to lingering souls and the like.
I used to run more creatures in this deck briefly but was thoroughly unimpressed with everything I tried (tasigur, kalitas, etc) since the overall creature count is so low that everyone has plenty of removal for it. I've been having better luck with a spell/planeswalker focus but it does worsen my combo matchups a bit since I lack an efficient clock