Or should I just stick to Blood Moons + EE and use the last space for something else?
Granted, both Hazoret and Grave Titan would be hard to beat on its own for BGx, but the restriction on Hazoret may mean she doesn't always work like you want her to work.
I've been fine with replacing the moons and chalices with Leylines. I've also toyed around with Arguel's Blood Fast. Arguel's just a rough sketch in my mind so far though - haven't had a chance to test.
Hello, it is now 5/6 months that I play GriselDaddy.
I am looking to gain experience with the deck, in paper very exclusively. I have to go this weekend to an event, I don't know exactly which side to choose. I'm getting used to this one (Finalnub GP):
1 Collective Brutality
3 Blood Moon
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pact of Negation
2 Shattering Spree
but since the unban sides are more like this:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pact of Negation
1 Lightning Axe
1 Shattering Spree
2 Collective Brutality
3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Grave Titan
Several questions :
Blood Moon and Leyline can't be together because they are for the same MU?
What are the MUs where LL have to be in? And should we force 100% to have it in the starting hand in some games?
Are not we weaker against control.deck now?
In which MU does the titan have to be side? Is it really so impacting? And instead of what?
Thanks so much,
B00NTY.
Agree that Chalice is no longer needed
Leyline is for BGx/shadows/Lantern/Burn/Valakut generally. I would not mulligan for it. If you have a good generic combo hand just keep that. Your plan A is still going to be better than your opponent's on average.
We've always had a good matchup vs control and I don't think anything's changed that. With my latest configuration we lose chalices and blood moon and we still have powerful tools in Pact of Negation and Collective Brutailty.
Grave Titan is for matchups where games tend to go long like BGx and control. Provides threat density and it's not a bad breach target either (6 power deathtouch that leaves 8 power behind) that you can actually just hardcast. BGx will have a very hard time beating a resolved Grave Titan. Side out some fatihless lootings as they are likely to be more GY hate centric post board and it's card disadvantage
I've been on grishoalbrand for about a year now, and was inspired by Finalnub to start recording match stats. Since I began recording, i'm 31-12, including two FNM 4-0's in paper and a 5-0 league (72% winrate!!). Until now, I have mostly observed and have not weighed in, but I feel it is time to mention a few things i've noticed.
I want to start by thanking Finalnub for the super in-depth primers. It was awesome to see that I had found the vast majority of the lines with the deck at one point or another, but it was also awesome to learn something. Until this primer I was not aware of the advantages of responding to a worldspine shuffle in the cleanup step - and I used this little interaction against a UW control player the very day after I learned it. Thanks!
---
This segues nicely into my first observation - in addition to the splice bug, I found that MTGO does not properly handle Angel's Grace and this shuffle trigger. In one of my MTGO matches, I threw a land at an opponent in response to the shuffle trigger during the cleanup step and they did not take damage, as the Angel's Grace did not properly wear off. Lucky for me he did not have a second one during his upkeep, but just another small % bug to be aware of.
---
For most of my recorded games, I stuck pretty close to Finalnub's board strategy. After a rough 2-3 league where I was hit by 2+ thoughtseize/iok per game for 4 of my 5 rounds, I decided to try out Leyline of Sanctity. Boy is that card great! With the heavy trend towards nihil spellbomb right now, not only do you blank your opponents hand disruption, you blank their graveyard disruption too! I really can't believe how good it has been. If you guys haven't tried it out yet, it feels excellent in this meta.
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The last thing i'll touch on is Quicksilver Amulet. I was enamored with the idea of boarding out 1 goryo's and boarding in 1-2 quicksilver amulets to hedge against graveyard interaction game 2-3, but overall I would say this card is not worth it. The thing that really kills it is the lack of haste. Worldspine wurm and Quicksilver amulet is a 3-turn endeavor. I will always be on the lookout for a new card that functions like TTB out of the board, but this is not it. Try it or don't, but that's where I stand on it right now. I've seen Necrotic Ooze come up a bit here, but I think that is not the direction you want to go. The problem g2/3 is always graveyard hate. I guess ooze is pretty sweet if grafdigger's cage becomes the #1 graveyard hate card, but overall it just feels like playing into your opponent's disruption.
---
Thats all i've got for now, thanks for the discussion in this thread - it's been super helpful to me over the course of learning this deck!
Welcome! Glad you found those helfpul and always good to read tournament reports. Keep it up!
Re: grace, yes I found that to be the case as well. I wouldn't try it on MTGO. Also I think Quicksilver Amulet is a bit too clunky to me. It's slow and it doesn't necessarily make us threat dense. YMMV though and if it works well for you, let us know!
This could be manaical, but how about playing Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard? Aim is to have a 1 card win condition vs. Humans/Hollow One/Shadows/Bogles/Eldrazi variants whoa re not likely to have answers to a Bridge post-board
I will be pretty much swapping out bant knightfall for one of these goryo's decks. Of the two, which one is better moving forward; the esper goryo version, or the grishoalbrand version. As I am only able to invest into one of these so the initial decision is rather important for me.
I've tried both. Esper Ghostdaddy's pretty fun and interactive. If you like grinding and making midrange decisions you may like it.
If you like the combo archetype where you can combo kill on turn 2 and is versatile enough to not be dead to a single hate piece, this may be for you. If you are purely competitive and want to maximize your chance of spiking a tournament or two, Grishoalbrand is most certainly the choice.
Matchup lottery did definitely not favor me this time around.
Round 1 - 4-color Death's Shadow
My teammate. I know what he's playing but don't know his exact current version.
G1: He plays 3 discard spells but no pressure. I loot and hug. Eventually I draw a vengeance and go off.
-Brutality, -Axe, -Wurm, -Breach, -Ritual, -Looting, +Chalices, +Moons, +EE
G2: I realize my mistake of siding in Chalices on the draw when he plays DS and spellbomb on turn two. This time he had no discard but quick pressure (with spellbomb as disruption).
G3: Same sideplan. Mull to a questionable 6 of temples and card draw. Decide to keep as it's kind of ok vs. discard. He gets an early Tarmogoyf and some discard. I'm on the backfoot the whole game, and manage to land a Chalice, which he Decays. Then I get down a Moon, but the Goyf gets me before I find the combo. 1-2 (0-1)
This truly feels like a bad matchup. A quick Moon would be lights out, but it's hard to stick against a discard deck.
Round 2 - 5-color homebrew
G1: He plays Inquisition, Lingering Souls, Bolt and Helix, so I'm thinking some sort of Mardu midrange. He always has a white source open, so I'm afraid to Breach a Wurm in fear of a Path. He suprises me by fetching a green shockland and drops a Bloodbraid Elf! Cascade hits Kolaghan's Command and I'm forced to form a new plan. He attacks, I shoal and survive with one open mana and SSG, Vengeance, Breach in hand and a Borb in the yard. I feel my only way to win is to Vengeance in his end step and either draw a creature or hit enough lands with Borb. I draw a Wurm and Breach for the win. His lone card was all the time a Forest, not a Path.
-Axe, -Brutality, +EE, +Spree
G2: He plays a turn 2 RIP, I counter with an EE. I sculpt a nice hand against no pressure, and finally Breach a Wurm with a Vengeance backup-plan. He Terminates the Wurm but the tokens go all the way.
After the games he shows me how he sided in 3 RIPs and 2 Surgicals. 2-0 (1-1)
Round 3 - Lantern
At this point I've seen most decks in the event. There's some Trons, Goblin deck, UR Breach, at least one more brew and a Zombie Hunt in addition to the 4-c DS and the rainbowbrew I've played. I was hoping to face a nice heavy Tron or a slow midrange deck. My prayers went unanswered.
G1: I look at my hand and a t2 Griseldaddy stares back at me. I play my land and loot away the demon. He lauhgs, plays a Spire of Industry, Bauble and passes. Lantern. Our enemy #1. Well, what's he gonna do against a turn 2 Necropotence-on-a-stick. Game one: a homerun. I count my blessings and move to sideboarding.
-Axe, -Brutality, -Wurm, -Breach, +Sprees, +EE
G2: He plays a turn one Cage and a turn two Lantern + millrock. I loot a Griselbrand and play an EE for one. T4 he draws a Pithing Needle and goes deep into the tank. I have 4 cards in hand. He has an Whir on top. He decides to hold his Needle and plays a second Bridge. I have a chance to go for it, and I take it: Endstep break EE and mainstep Vengeance. I drew 14, shoaled a Borb and drew 7 more (at 7 life). Then I ran out of shoals. Gasp. I have the option to either exile a mana-ape to loot, or exile two apes to spree and attack, or play red land and/or manamorphose before any of these. I decide not to morphose and instead burn the bridges and attack to draw 7. Jackpot. Land>SSG>Loot away a Borb>Manamorphose for B>Vengeance Borbie>throw enough lands in his face to slay the metallic dragon! Wohoo! 2-0 (2-1)
Round 4 - Storm
We know what each other is playing, and agree that the dice roll in crucial in this matchup. I end up losing the roll.
G1: I have almost a perfect hand, only missing one land to t2 combo. I draw, loot and Whisper for a few turns. Nope. When I finally hit the second land, he Remands me twice and goes off.
-Hugs, -Wurm, -Breach, +Chalices, +Pacts. I'm quite sure he sides the Goblin-plan out, and some permission in. I consider bringing in Nahiri's for more removal/enabler.
G2: I start with a good hand of Pact, Brutality, Vengeance and a Looting. He plays a turn 2 Electromancer. I Brutality it and see a hand of Negate, Remand and a Swan Song which I bin. He plays a land, performs a Sleight a Hand and passes. I reanimate the big guy, he remands and I pact. I proceed to an easy win.
-Chalice +EE
G3: I mull to a questionable 6 with chalice and some card draw. He also mulled to 6 and scried to bottom. I spent my first turns sculpting, and then play the Chalice. He plays a Baral. I draw a Brutality, and consider playing it, but opt to play a looting and a scryland instead. The reasoning was that he had mana open for a Remand, and I needed to advance my board if I ever dreamed of winning. Well, got punished. He went for it and got there. 1-2 (2-2)
Maybe should have sided out the last Chalice as well, and bring in Nahiri's as an additional way of removal?
2-2. Well the games went 6-4 against a very hostile field, and I won against the #1 enemy, so I'm definitely content with the result.
Notes on the deck:
-The Hugs are (finally) starting to grow on me. I specifically like them against discard, as they represent a whole 3 new cards for them to worry about.
-I like the lone EE on the side. It's very easy to bring in blind.
-I'm testing a Nahiri's Wrath on the side for midrange matchups. Serves as an extra enabler and a way to buy time against Goyfs and such.
-It would be nice to hear how good Grave Titan has been. I don't own any yet and am considering buying some.
/J
Nahiri's Wrath is kind of interesting, but a lot has to go right for it to be super effective I think. Kind of high ceiling low floor. I'd be curious to test it.
Grave titan so far has been ok, but I haven't had time to focus on Modern much lately unfortunately. It makes sense to me in theory, would like to hear if people have found it good. The two times I've resolved it it won the game for me.
Without expecting tons of storm and DS is chalice really a good choice? Against what other decks do you bring this in?
The post above captured a lot. some common ones:
Shadows
Storm
UWx Control (potentially)
Marduy Pyromancer
Ad Nauseam (potentially. Blood Moon could be better)
Lantern
Infect
Mono Blue Living End
B B B B B BOGLES
8rack
you're right that the meta has moved away from decks that depend on 1 cmc or 0 cmc. That's why I've kind of moved on for now.
I don't necessarily HATE the idea. Graveyard hate is a big roadblock for us and pre-sideboard I just prefer to keep everything as tight as I can. Even the few flex spots that are "interaction" that I play are enablers (i.e. Lightning Axe, Brutality).
That said, I can definitely see myself playing a 1 of or 2 of Blood Moon main for the lols because of the surprise factor in game 1 (kind of the same reason as to why Mardu Pyromancer and Blue Moon Breach/Kiki/control play Blood Moon. It's just another axis of attack)
I'll be playing in the Open this weekend, and I will likely be on this deck. Currently playing the 60 that top'd at GP Toronto. My question is why is nobody playing Blood Moon in the main? This seems like a getcha kinda deck, and I'm of the opinion that Blood Moon is a pretty getcha card. It seems like it would be easy enough to cut the one of Brutality and one of Lightning Axe and replace them with 2 maindeck moons and steal even more games with a turn 1/2 Blood Moon...
Because your game 1 plan A is superior to almost anyone else's plan A, so you want to be as streamlined as possible. Postboard, think of Blood Moon as another win condition that attacks on a different axis than your plan A (graveyard hate will be aplenty postboard)
Planning on heading out to Cincinnati to do the classic on Sunday. Expecting tons of jund, burn, and humans. Any tips on putting together a sideboard?
I know leyline would probably be ideal but I don't think I can get them by then.
I'd just revert back to the Blood Moon/Chalice configuration then. Maybe throw in a grave titan in there and up the hard sweeper count.
Here is a small report from my tournament of Sunday the Geneva Modern 8 with 117 peoples/
Round 1 / Hollow One :
I loose the toss. I play against somebody who doesn't play a lot and borrowed the deck to one of his friend. 1st game I mull 6, with quite a slow hand but keep it because I know what he plays, and I have griselbrand which can go to the graveyard with burning inquiry.
I win the first game because i can shoal and wurm to buy enough turns to goryo griselbrand.
I loose the second game, one turn too short to kill Him. I win the third game with a turn 3 kill, he mulligans and doesn't fin anything relevant. 1/0
Round 2 Blue White Control
I win the toss.
Game 1 I have an excellent hand with faithless grisel and 2 goryo, land, shoal and manamorphose. I try to goryo while he taps out turn 2 and he surprises me with the blue shoal discarding Snap! Nevermind, I can splice and recast it for the win.
Game 2 : I turn to kill him and he has no answer. 2/0
Round 3 : Blue / red Pyromancer :
I win the toss.
Game 1 I keep a slow hand with a breach plan, and shoal, simian. I see 2 things in the ice. I can splice Through the breach end of is turn and recast it on my turn for the win.
Game 2 : I turn 2 kill him, he punted because he didnt' play is bleu trap when I started to combo off and didn't have my pact of negation in hand yet. 3/0
Round 4 : Mono Blue Tron:
I win the toss.
Game one I get to double goryo's vengeance and kill him quickly. Game 2 he lands a Thought Knot Seer and take my goryo, I never manager to find something else and die in a few turns. Game 3 : I mull 6 , don't remember properly but I think I kept a slow hand, and he manages to kill me with mindslaver and the academy ruins to take all my turns! 3/1
Round 5 : Merfolk :
I win the toss. Game one turn 4 kill because I have to play around his cursecatcher and to splice in case of coutnerspells. Game to I turn 4 kill him because he choosed to attack with his mutavault and one counterspells backup instead of passing with 4mana and 2 counterspells.. 4/1
Round 6 : Ponza
I win the toss againt! This is the kind of matchup I am happy to play against. Game one he manage to cut my black sources and land blood moon, I don't have fetches to play around land destructions. I topdeck a swamp for the win.
Game 2, he lands a scavenging ooze quickly and manage to win. Game 3 turn to kill on the play with a perfect hand! 5/1
At the end of round 6 I am 6th and have to play the last round for the top8 against.... Scapeshift! Which is a good matchup.
Round 7 : Scapeshift
I loose finally my first toss! I start feeling tired, and had a night out planned with my friend and I was late, I wouldnt except such a good result on the tournament today!
First game : I my turn 4 I Think he has 3 cards left in hands 6 lands on the battlefield. I have 2 options : Breaching a Wurm or a Griselbrand. I am affraid he is going to untap and kill me with scapeshift if i dont kill him, he is at 17 so I choose to go for Breach and Grisel, which is a big mistake because I punt really hard by going down to 2 life and he kills me with a bol,t.. How stupid I am!
Game 2 : I kept a hand with a turn 2 blood moon some lands, faithless to draw cards and wurm I think. I decide to keep it because of the quick bloodmoon. He lands Gravedigger's cage, I land bloodmoon and keep on ramping with nothing but one sakura on the battlefield. He finally manages to pact for a reclamation sage and scapeshift the same turn and knock me down 5/2
I played really poorly and should have won the first game , I am very disapointed to not make top 8 but still happy with my good run!
I finish 13th and still in the prices which is great.
Love this deck, soon I will have it fully foiled!
I hope you will like the report, sorry for the mistakes, my english is not perfect.
thanks for the report! Bummer about the last match. Should generally be a really good match up:/
Has anyone considered Mox Amber in Grishoalbrand? I looked back in this thread and it doesn’t appear that anyone has brought it up as potential synergy with the deck.
Clearly it doesn’t do anything until we’re already starting to combo off and we have either Gris or Borbo in play, but once we start drawing cards with Gris every Mox Amber we hit is an extra B, R, or G potentially. I’m not sure what it would replace in the 60/75 but free mana, conditional or not, should always be looked at closely.
The argument is there that SSG is just better which it very well could be but I still think this card needs to be tested in this deck to see if it adds anything to our gameplan. Any thoughts on numbers? What it would replace?
I'm planning on maybe playing it as a one-of. As you said, SSG has infinitely more utility (grey ogre, Breaching ahead of schedule, mana during combo turn). I don't feel that start-up mana during combo turns is a constraint often enough for me so I'm not optimistic.
Isn't it better than manamorphos? The thing with manamorphose is that it allows us to get back mana for vengeance kills and very very rarely the 3-4 color for engineered explosives. There are games where I didnt draw a second shoal and was 1 mana away from breaching and I think this helps a lot.
I think the times Manamorphose helps you by letting you play a 59 card deck if needed, letting you pitch it to Shoal to splice a turn early, cheat on mana by letting you filter into black for a tight goryo's vengeance turn and letting you very rarely pay for Pact of Negation/add colors to EE far outweighs the times Mox Amber will help you.
For all intents and purposes, the game is most often won when Griselbrand comes into play. Most of the times where you can't immediately combo is when you have the opportunity to slow down and sculpt the perfect hand to win on the next turn. When you can't life is usually the constraint, not mana. Amber literally does nothing outside of the rare combo turn where it's needed so I'm not too hot on it in theory
I was just going to pm you about this
I've been fine with replacing the moons and chalices with Leylines. I've also toyed around with Arguel's Blood Fast. Arguel's just a rough sketch in my mind so far though - haven't had a chance to test.
Agree that Chalice is no longer needed
Leyline is for BGx/shadows/Lantern/Burn/Valakut generally. I would not mulligan for it. If you have a good generic combo hand just keep that. Your plan A is still going to be better than your opponent's on average.
We've always had a good matchup vs control and I don't think anything's changed that. With my latest configuration we lose chalices and blood moon and we still have powerful tools in Pact of Negation and Collective Brutailty.
Grave Titan is for matchups where games tend to go long like BGx and control. Provides threat density and it's not a bad breach target either (6 power deathtouch that leaves 8 power behind) that you can actually just hardcast. BGx will have a very hard time beating a resolved Grave Titan. Side out some fatihless lootings as they are likely to be more GY hate centric post board and it's card disadvantage
Welcome! Glad you found those helfpul and always good to read tournament reports. Keep it up!
Re: grace, yes I found that to be the case as well. I wouldn't try it on MTGO. Also I think Quicksilver Amulet is a bit too clunky to me. It's slow and it doesn't necessarily make us threat dense. YMMV though and if it works well for you, let us know!
If you like the combo archetype where you can combo kill on turn 2 and is versatile enough to not be dead to a single hate piece, this may be for you. If you are purely competitive and want to maximize your chance of spiking a tournament or two, Grishoalbrand is most certainly the choice.
Grave titan so far has been ok, but I haven't had time to focus on Modern much lately unfortunately. It makes sense to me in theory, would like to hear if people have found it good. The two times I've resolved it it won the game for me.
The post above captured a lot. some common ones:
Shadows
Storm
UWx Control (potentially)
Marduy Pyromancer
Ad Nauseam (potentially. Blood Moon could be better)
Lantern
Infect
Mono Blue Living End
B B B B B BOGLES
8rack
you're right that the meta has moved away from decks that depend on 1 cmc or 0 cmc. That's why I've kind of moved on for now.
That said, I can definitely see myself playing a 1 of or 2 of Blood Moon main for the lols because of the surprise factor in game 1 (kind of the same reason as to why Mardu Pyromancer and Blue Moon Breach/Kiki/control play Blood Moon. It's just another axis of attack)
Because your game 1 plan A is superior to almost anyone else's plan A, so you want to be as streamlined as possible. Postboard, think of Blood Moon as another win condition that attacks on a different axis than your plan A (graveyard hate will be aplenty postboard)
I'd just revert back to the Blood Moon/Chalice configuration then. Maybe throw in a grave titan in there and up the hard sweeper count.
generally we're not lacking for speed, but consistency of the actual combo. I doubt it'll be good for us.
I have no idea what this is but I feel obligated to try this out. No Grisly Savage seems interesting though.
I think the times Manamorphose helps you by letting you play a 59 card deck if needed, letting you pitch it to Shoal to splice a turn early, cheat on mana by letting you filter into black for a tight goryo's vengeance turn and letting you very rarely pay for Pact of Negation/add colors to EE far outweighs the times Mox Amber will help you.
For all intents and purposes, the game is most often won when Griselbrand comes into play. Most of the times where you can't immediately combo is when you have the opportunity to slow down and sculpt the perfect hand to win on the next turn. When you can't life is usually the constraint, not mana. Amber literally does nothing outside of the rare combo turn where it's needed so I'm not too hot on it in theory