Nameless Inversion is the right choice - you don't need split second to kill Mirror Entity, because your Eyeblight's Ending (or Terror, or Shriekmaw) can do that. There aren't many threats you want to deal with that have exactly T4 - of the three relevant cards listed in an earlier post that Nameless Inversion + Shriekmaw can't deal with, Tombstalker has T5 and Korlash often will, and Phyrexian Ironfoot can be killed with Krosan Grip. Unless Nath of the Gilt-Leaf really does prove to be the Standard bomb no one expects him to be, Sudden Death really gives you nothing Nameless Inversion doesn't. You're right to highlight BB in the cost as a serious consideration - maybe you can get round it with duals, but don't take the risk if you don't need to. What you don't mention is that, again, this is a 3-mana removal spell. Having one is inadvisable to my mind, certainly as your only maindeck removal, but not having a cheaper option on hand could be critical.
Phil
1. Land, Llanowar Elves
2. Land. Wren's Run Vanquisher, Llanowar Mentor
3. Land, Garruk Wildspeaker, untap two lands, Llanowar Elves token. Hit for 3.
4. Imperious Perfect, blow Garruk for overrun, hit for 22 trample.
ummmm yeah maybe in goldfishing
you could play your deck 100 times against any deck stickied in the competitive forum and NEVER get that combo off. I don't understand it.. You're criticisms of my opinions are honestly the only ones that make sense to me (compared to those of anyone else on this board), but your own card choices/ideas for your own deck are BY FAR the worst of any elf deck posted here.. My head hurts..
edit: and I'm not even going to continue the Eyeblight's Ending argument. Before you, the question here has never been "Eyeblight or _____". The question has always been "Eyeblight and ______". (usually deciding between Terror, Nameless Inversion, or Shriekmaw). If you don't see why Eyeblight's Ending belongs in this deck, then you really haven't got as good of a grasp on competitive play as you think you do.
I wouldn't use Essence Warden at all. 2-3 Boreal Druids to make the deck faster and 2 Loxodon Warhammers for lifegain. Otherwise the deck looks great.
SB: Id prefer Krosan grip over Naturalize, and you should add more Thorn of Amethysts, you will probably need them, As well as 2-3 Extirpate.
I agree completely. I really like the way you've put things togeher Menma, however I would advise these same changes. Especially the Krosan Grip > Naturalize.
A two-drop sorcery kills at least as quickly as a three-drop instant, and has the flexibility to be used earlier if need be. Plus it simply costs you less later and frees mana for other things. Ending isn't here because I simply don't think it's good enough - if a creature's black or artifact, Inversion can deal with it. Iif I ever come up against decks running Phyrexian Ironfoot, I'll consider using Ending in the sideboard, but its role amounts to "kill target black or artifact creature with T4 or above that isn't Nath", and that's too much of a niche market for a maindeck card.
Phil
thats the worst explanation I've ever heard..
Let's take a look at widely-used cards that Shriekmaw doesn't hit:
Hah finaly someone things that goys arent for this deck,pls tell me what were the sittuations that they were useless in cuz i dont have goyfs and cant see for myself.
Tarmogoyfs are good because they are an easy 3/4 or bigger for only 1G.
Admittedly he has no real synergy with this deck, and is not as highly needed here as he is in other decks, he's still (by far) the best green creature in Standard right now and deserves a 4-of slot in just about any green semi-aggressive deck..
Defo.I'm only running 8 non creatures in my deck, including Anthems, so having a few sub-bar more won't change the effectivness of the deck.
4/3 Shriekmaws, 4/4 Treetops after Wrath, 4/4 Vanquisher and the like, even after the board has been wiped clean are too good to pass up, IMO, since most list aren't playing ONLY elves, but elves and other good creatures, pumping them all seems more relevant than having a 2/2 for 3.
You bring up good points about the Anthems, and the more I contemplate it, the more I want to test them. The main thing that catches my fancy is the Treetop Villages. That is a very popular card right now, and having yours as 4/4 when most others are 3/3 seems rather powerful. My list doesn't play Shriekmaw, however..so the Anthems won't help me there.. However it does bump my Epochrasite up to 2/2, which makes him seem like more of a threat, which in turn would make the opponent more likely to want to destroy him (which is what I want in the first place).
As for now I'll keep my list the way it is, but you've convinced me enough to test it out as a 4-of. I'll post back later with my findings.
He keeps your opponents hand down, and not only that, it's random!
He also gives a 1/1 token for every card any opponent discards. If used together with stupors & Liliana, that's at least 2 cards/tokens every turn.
Honestly, the simple fact that Nath:
a. is an elf
b. is a 4/4 body
c. dodges almost all spot removal
is reason enough for him to be given consideration.
The fact that he forces your opponent to discard a card is really only valuble in the late-late game when your opponent has used most of their removal already and is basically topdecking answers. And the fact that he gets you a token for each card discarded is IMHO his least most valuble aspect.
just my 2 cents..
That is true, im having difficulties with getting Llanowars in my opening hand. Will try with 2-3 Druids.
IMHO, 4 Llanowar Elves and 3 Boreal Druid is the right call. However, in my current list, I play 3 Masked Admirers (most people seem to play 2 or none).
And with that many Admirers in my deck, the likelyhood of one being in the graveyard when I topdeck an Elves/Druid mid-to-late game, is rather likely, and rather favorable. So I play 4 of each in my deck.
Im not entirely convinced. You need 7 mana (1+2+4) if you want to play him the same turn. That's alot of mana.
You don't need to play him the same turn.. Just getting him back into your hand and playing him the following turn and cantripping is good enough.
I don't think Tarmorack is nor will be very popular, given it's inability to fight against any control deck that runs at least 4 spells to draw cards and 4 counters...
Also, I'm not sure about the most recent lists, but most don't run any forest at all, relying on Treetops, Pendelhaven, Llanowar Wastes and Gilt-Leaf Palace for green mana given that the only green spells they play are Tarmogoyf and Call of the Herd, making it only a splash.
So the forestwalk point is moot, givent hat Anthems makes you win the Goyf-on-Goyf war, makes you Treetops 4/4, takes your Vanquishers out of burn range and gives you a permanent boost to the power of your creatures.
Not having an elf to reveal for Vanquisher is not an option that early in the game, you're playing like 30 of them and not having one in hand by turn 2 means something is going VERY wrong...
Touche..
However, you've yet to counter my initial arguement for why Elvish Champion is a better choice than Anthem; It can attack. Yes, Anthem boosts your Apes, which the Champion doesn't, but with no other creatures on the table, the Anthem is not going to beat face for 2.
While it's a fun trick, any of the Harbingers can do it with their Champions, and only one of them is seeing play - and Mistblind Clique isn't being played in that combo. Elf tribal is overburdened with three-drops as it is and in any case doesn't desperately need them since they reliably play a four-drop on turn 3 and will usually want a Vanquisher on turn 2. Masked Admirers is a better fit for the four-slot because you can drop it before the Wrath and get it back afterwards, without losing a card as you do with the Packmaster and reducing the *** player's card advantage in the process.
Phil
Thank you for explaining my point better than me =/
I run the Anthem. Only have 2 atm, so im using Champion as well. Will put him in the SB against Treefolk when i have 4 GA. Gaea's Anthem is awesome because of the synergy with MassRemoval & Treetop Village.
Someone mentioned a few threads back that he isn't something you'd wanna topdeck after MR, but with Treetops that isn't the case. Im more scared of topdecking a Llanowar elves or a Boreal Druid. Can't believe people run 4 of each, they aren't that useful are they?
Im also loving Nath, together with stupor he is quite decent, and as Funeral of Gods pointed out, he isn't that vurnerable against removal. Together with Liliana Vess your opponent will soon have zero cards in his/her hand, & forced to play whatever he/she draws. Her tutor-ability together with Masked isn't bad at all.
Epochrasite is an interesting choice, never considered it before.
Anthem does deserve some debate, however IMHO the champion is better for one simply reason; it can attack. Yes indeed, your Anthem will not fall to ***/DMN or any removal for that matter, but it also doesn't deal 2 damage per turn when you have no other creatures. Also, the Anthem is not an elf. Wouldn't it be terrible to not be able to reveal an elf for Wren's Run Vanquisher when you're holding nothing but a Gaea's Anthem and only 3 or 4 lands on the table?? Plus the fact that Elvish Champion gives you forestwalk will benefit you more than it will hurt you. Tarmorack is, needless to say, extremely popular right now, and they're gonna have forests..
I think Liliana Vess would be an interesting choice in this deck. I think everyone always assumes that Garruk Wildspeaker is the way to go, but in my testing B/G Elves played as Aggro-Control just as often as it did as Aggro, so I don't use him at all. Liliana might deserve a couple spots in the SB, not only for the discard against control but also for her tutoring. I just might have to proxy her up and test her out a bit...
I could be wrong here, but...
I don't remember reading about any top 8 lists that were big on Sudden Death. The only deck that might play would be U/B Teachings, and they have Damnations for you to worry about anyways.
I'm talking about removal spells that are widely used.
2 Nath MD !!!! I always want to have a Nath in my hand he realy is awesome !! Treetop Vilage is a 4 of in my build ,like other pple said THEY WIN GAMES.Packmaster is 3x.I dont play Harbringers do,after ALOT of testing I removed them cuz Im testing a faster mode cuz 3 mana for a 1/2 isnt agro like .
I'm glad there are fellow Nath supporters! I really wanna try to work him into my build somehow, just as a 1 or 2 of. He just seems sooo worth it (especially agianst control). And I also agree with you COMPLETELY on the Treetop Villages. They are a must 4-of. I win with those damn dirty apes more often than I win with elves. They're just too good..
Although I disagree with you on the packmasters. I think there are much better choices in the deck than those. Packmaster is just a vanilla 5/5 and the wolves he makes don't even have deathtouch unless he's on the table (which he won't be for long). I don't feel like going back to check exactly who said this, but someone said "There are better things you can do with 3 mana than make a 2/2 deathtouch" and he's exactly right.
I haven't seen much talk about Nath of the Gilt-leaf, but I think he deserves some discussion.
Let's take a look at the most popular removal spells in Standard right now:
Not a single one of these will take out Nath. I think he might at least deserve a sideboard spot, depending on your
local meta. Or at the very least, some discussion on these boards.
That being said, I'd like to post my current decklist for critique (ironically not including any Nath's).
Some explanation on my card choices (I'm sure its needed):
3x Masked Admirers: This is the best Elf in standard right now. Hands down. If you can't see why this card is so
useful in a deck that runs ~30 creatures and in a Standard environment full of ***s/DAMNs, then there is no hope for
you. As an aggro deck, you never want to overextend, and since even just a Llanowar Elves and an Admirers on the
table can be a threat (at 4 damage per turn) your opponent might be forced to ***. Then you just untap, play some 1
or 2 drop, and get your admirer right back. AND he cantrips every time you cast him, effectively keeping up your CA against control.
1x Llanowar Reborn: I know this lone land seems rather random, but I find it quite usefull. I get it opening hand
surprisingly often and I usually like to throw the counter at an early (or even late) played Vanquisher, effectively putting him out of blast range from Nameless Inversion and Incinerate.
2x Terror (and not Shriekmaw): We have plenty of creatures in this deck. The fact that he can double as a creature
later in the game isn't as usefull as the fact that Terror is an instant and there are a lot of powerful creatures with flash right now that just make Terror more potent.
2x Profane Command: This card is NOT just one of those "I'm really popular so put a couple of me in every deck" kind of cards. It's more of a "I'm an extremely versatile black card and should be in most decks that run black" kind of card. I've found it useful for reanimating Augurs, Vanquishers & Epochrasites (if they make you discard one), as a life-loss finisher, as (obviously) removal, and even its fear can be used to get that last bit of damage through to win you the game. This card is not popular because of some fad, its popular because its damn good. Use it.
4x Augur of Skulls: I find him much more versatile than Thoughtseize, but I see a lot of reasons for playing either
one. This, to me, is a more personal choice.
And now the big one that I'm sure everyone is WTFing about:
4x Epochrasite: I think this guy is highly underestimated. For some reason, he is unheard-of outside of U/B Mannequin, and I'm not sure why. He is GREAT anti-aggro, and he's easily tossed at a fatty as a chump blocker against control. My original decklist ran 4x Tarmogoyf instead of this little guy. But rather than purchase a 4th one (I only own 3) at a whopping $30.00+ I decided to test out 4x Epochrasite and found them to be a lot of more versatile and harder to remove. Of course the argument still stands, Tarmogoyf is a much larger beater, however he is extremely easy to take out. Between Epochrasite and Masked Admirers, this deck has much more room to overextend than people give it credit for. My play is often:
T1 Elves
T2 Epochrasite, swing for 1
T3 Masked Admirers, swing for 1
at which point they are forced to ***/DMN and I can easily recover.
But I'm not a genious or anything. I just really like to over-analyze a great deal before I open my mouth on these boards (in fact my last account got deactivated for inactivity, so I made this one). After rigorous amounts of testing (in a control heavy meta), these are the results I've come up with. I'm very interested in hearing everyone's criticism/comments.
I originally ran Alchemy but every time I casted it I was always hoping for a counter, so instead I just replaced them with more counters. Dissipation Field is more useful here because it continually slows down opposing creatures, whereas DOJ only clears the field once. Also I have a couple DOJ in here already..
The only reason I don't use the O-Ring is because of the manabase. I like Beast Within better anyway..as the 3/3 is rarely a problem. And the fact that it can hit lands is very important as well, since this deck has some amazing LD potential with the addition of Unburial Rites
The Revoker may be coming out for another Spellskite, but currently I always find something useful for the Revoker. I only side it out against control deck with no swords and no planeswalkers. I take the LD/mana denial route often with this build, and I'll even drop the Revoker naming BOP if they play one
I guess the main reason I want the bounce is because its reusable, and the fact that you aren't required to have the spell in your hand + mana open when they cast the creature. Both Grasp of Phantoms and Silent Departure have flashback, and I can even return them with Runic Repetition later. Although I'll probably use Visions of Beyond instead of Think Twice..yeah definitely.
4 Skeletal Changeling
4 Stromglad Crusader
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Lord of the Undead
3 Haakon, Stromglad Scourge
4 Undead Warchief
4 Smallpox
4 Nameless Inversion
4 Funeral Charm
2 Profane Command
Lands:
3 Mouth of Ronom
20 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Withered Wretch
3 Extirpate
3 Deathmark
3 Damnation
2 Liliana Vess
I'd have to agree with Phil on this aspect. If Eyeblight's Ending is going to be your maindeck removal, and you're speculating at what to keep in the Sideboard, I'd say go with Nameless Inversion. Another good option I tested out myself is Deathmark. Gaddock Teeg, Tarmogoyf, Doran, the Siege Tower, Kithkins, Mirror Entity, Elves, Lightning Angel, Serra Avenger, Wall of Roots, ALL fall to deathmark, and it only costs B. The most important one here being Doran, because he's the only one that Terror/Shriekmaw can't take out.
ummmm yeah maybe in goldfishing
you could play your deck 100 times against any deck stickied in the competitive forum and NEVER get that combo off. I don't understand it.. You're criticisms of my opinions are honestly the only ones that make sense to me (compared to those of anyone else on this board), but your own card choices/ideas for your own deck are BY FAR the worst of any elf deck posted here.. My head hurts..
edit: and I'm not even going to continue the Eyeblight's Ending argument. Before you, the question here has never been "Eyeblight or _____". The question has always been "Eyeblight and ______". (usually deciding between Terror, Nameless Inversion, or Shriekmaw). If you don't see why Eyeblight's Ending belongs in this deck, then you really haven't got as good of a grasp on competitive play as you think you do.
I agree completely. I really like the way you've put things togeher Menma, however I would advise these same changes. Especially the Krosan Grip > Naturalize.
thats the worst explanation I've ever heard..
Let's take a look at widely-used cards that Shriekmaw doesn't hit:
Whilst Eyeblight's Ending is only useless against other elf decks and Mirror Entity..
Tarmogoyfs are good because they are an easy 3/4 or bigger for only 1G.
Admittedly he has no real synergy with this deck, and is not as highly needed here as he is in other decks, he's still (by far) the best green creature in Standard right now and deserves a 4-of slot in just about any green semi-aggressive deck..
You bring up good points about the Anthems, and the more I contemplate it, the more I want to test them. The main thing that catches my fancy is the Treetop Villages. That is a very popular card right now, and having yours as 4/4 when most others are 3/3 seems rather powerful. My list doesn't play Shriekmaw, however..so the Anthems won't help me there.. However it does bump my Epochrasite up to 2/2, which makes him seem like more of a threat, which in turn would make the opponent more likely to want to destroy him (which is what I want in the first place).
As for now I'll keep my list the way it is, but you've convinced me enough to test it out as a 4-of. I'll post back later with my findings.
Honestly, the simple fact that Nath:
a. is an elf
b. is a 4/4 body
c. dodges almost all spot removal
is reason enough for him to be given consideration.
The fact that he forces your opponent to discard a card is really only valuble in the late-late game when your opponent has used most of their removal already and is basically topdecking answers. And the fact that he gets you a token for each card discarded is IMHO his least most valuble aspect.
just my 2 cents..
IMHO, 4 Llanowar Elves and 3 Boreal Druid is the right call. However, in my current list, I play 3 Masked Admirers (most people seem to play 2 or none).
And with that many Admirers in my deck, the likelyhood of one being in the graveyard when I topdeck an Elves/Druid mid-to-late game, is rather likely, and rather favorable. So I play 4 of each in my deck.
You don't need to play him the same turn.. Just getting him back into your hand and playing him the following turn and cantripping is good enough.
Llanowar Elves or Boreal Druid is EXACTLY what I want to topdeck post ***/DMN when I have Masked Admirers in the graveyard. =P
Touche..
However, you've yet to counter my initial arguement for why Elvish Champion is a better choice than Anthem; It can attack. Yes, Anthem boosts your Apes, which the Champion doesn't, but with no other creatures on the table, the Anthem is not going to beat face for 2.
Thank you for explaining my point better than me =/
Anthem does deserve some debate, however IMHO the champion is better for one simply reason; it can attack. Yes indeed, your Anthem will not fall to ***/DMN or any removal for that matter, but it also doesn't deal 2 damage per turn when you have no other creatures. Also, the Anthem is not an elf. Wouldn't it be terrible to not be able to reveal an elf for Wren's Run Vanquisher when you're holding nothing but a Gaea's Anthem and only 3 or 4 lands on the table?? Plus the fact that Elvish Champion gives you forestwalk will benefit you more than it will hurt you. Tarmorack is, needless to say, extremely popular right now, and they're gonna have forests..
I think Liliana Vess would be an interesting choice in this deck. I think everyone always assumes that Garruk Wildspeaker is the way to go, but in my testing B/G Elves played as Aggro-Control just as often as it did as Aggro, so I don't use him at all. Liliana might deserve a couple spots in the SB, not only for the discard against control but also for her tutoring. I just might have to proxy her up and test her out a bit...
I could be wrong here, but...
I don't remember reading about any top 8 lists that were big on Sudden Death. The only deck that might play would be U/B Teachings, and they have Damnations for you to worry about anyways.
I'm talking about removal spells that are widely used.
I'm glad there are fellow Nath supporters! I really wanna try to work him into my build somehow, just as a 1 or 2 of. He just seems sooo worth it (especially agianst control). And I also agree with you COMPLETELY on the Treetop Villages. They are a must 4-of. I win with those damn dirty apes more often than I win with elves. They're just too good..
Although I disagree with you on the packmasters. I think there are much better choices in the deck than those. Packmaster is just a vanilla 5/5 and the wolves he makes don't even have deathtouch unless he's on the table (which he won't be for long). I don't feel like going back to check exactly who said this, but someone said "There are better things you can do with 3 mana than make a 2/2 deathtouch" and he's exactly right.
Let's take a look at the most popular removal spells in Standard right now:
Not a single one of these will take out Nath. I think he might at least deserve a sideboard spot, depending on your
local meta. Or at the very least, some discussion on these boards.
That being said, I'd like to post my current decklist for critique (ironically not including any Nath's).
4 Boreal Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Epochrasite
4 Augur of Skulls
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Masked Admirers
Removal/Utility:
4 Eyeblight's Ending
2 Terror
2 Profane Command
4 Treetop Village
4 Gilt-leaf Palace
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Llanowar Reborn
1 Pendelhaven
4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Prowess of the Fair
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Riftsweeper
2 Nameless Inversion
Some explanation on my card choices (I'm sure its needed):
3x Masked Admirers: This is the best Elf in standard right now. Hands down. If you can't see why this card is so
useful in a deck that runs ~30 creatures and in a Standard environment full of ***s/DAMNs, then there is no hope for
you. As an aggro deck, you never want to overextend, and since even just a Llanowar Elves and an Admirers on the
table can be a threat (at 4 damage per turn) your opponent might be forced to ***. Then you just untap, play some 1
or 2 drop, and get your admirer right back. AND he cantrips every time you cast him, effectively keeping up your CA against control.
1x Llanowar Reborn: I know this lone land seems rather random, but I find it quite usefull. I get it opening hand
surprisingly often and I usually like to throw the counter at an early (or even late) played Vanquisher, effectively putting him out of blast range from Nameless Inversion and Incinerate.
2x Terror (and not Shriekmaw): We have plenty of creatures in this deck. The fact that he can double as a creature
later in the game isn't as usefull as the fact that Terror is an instant and there are a lot of powerful creatures with flash right now that just make Terror more potent.
2x Profane Command: This card is NOT just one of those "I'm really popular so put a couple of me in every deck" kind of cards. It's more of a "I'm an extremely versatile black card and should be in most decks that run black" kind of card. I've found it useful for reanimating Augurs, Vanquishers & Epochrasites (if they make you discard one), as a life-loss finisher, as (obviously) removal, and even its fear can be used to get that last bit of damage through to win you the game. This card is not popular because of some fad, its popular because its damn good. Use it.
4x Augur of Skulls: I find him much more versatile than Thoughtseize, but I see a lot of reasons for playing either
one. This, to me, is a more personal choice.
And now the big one that I'm sure everyone is WTFing about:
4x Epochrasite: I think this guy is highly underestimated. For some reason, he is unheard-of outside of U/B Mannequin, and I'm not sure why. He is GREAT anti-aggro, and he's easily tossed at a fatty as a chump blocker against control. My original decklist ran 4x Tarmogoyf instead of this little guy. But rather than purchase a 4th one (I only own 3) at a whopping $30.00+ I decided to test out 4x Epochrasite and found them to be a lot of more versatile and harder to remove. Of course the argument still stands, Tarmogoyf is a much larger beater, however he is extremely easy to take out. Between Epochrasite and Masked Admirers, this deck has much more room to overextend than people give it credit for. My play is often:
T1 Elves
T2 Epochrasite, swing for 1
T3 Masked Admirers, swing for 1
at which point they are forced to ***/DMN and I can easily recover.
But I'm not a genious or anything. I just really like to over-analyze a great deal before I open my mouth on these boards (in fact my last account got deactivated for inactivity, so I made this one). After rigorous amounts of testing (in a control heavy meta), these are the results I've come up with. I'm very interested in hearing everyone's criticism/comments.