That's correct but I think rip is way more impactfull in the games you need it than this spell. I'd probably stick to a grindy plan against midrange and would bring in rip just against the gym centered decks. Speaking of non bant versions, I think there's a 2 or 3 cards gap between the pile of cards that pressure and disrupt the board and the pile that disrupt the stack. I have been using Brutality to bridge it in the past with decent results but this one might as well do the trick now. Upsides would be to have a tempo positive of neutral card whereas Brutality was most of the times tempo negative.
Drown in the loch looks like one of those flexible cards I was looking for to fight spells or creatures in Esper. Curious to see how impactful this is going to be in the format, I can see tron not being a good match for it, while it's going to be excellent against control, midrange, combo and red decks
Imo yes, as long as thing in the ice goes down to lower percentages and mono red goes to jesus. I'm excited to pack up esper again to deal with the metagame shifting towards midrange (lingering souls hey there), of jeskai if big mana takes the lead (burn and alpine moon)
I might be ok with running some extra copy of call in the side, but I guess I'll start testing with 2x in the main at least, because it can incidentally sinergize extremely well with vial, and grabbing chains to provide hexproof at the right time is so appealing. It has got huge versatility, you just don't want to get clogged up with heavy drops. (not sure if you're advicing to go for a MB micro green splash for a couple shocks and that's it. I'd pick that as a secondary plan in case my playtests with MB call end up failing miserably but it still shows some potential. I believe the question to answer is when do I want to cast call? the earliest you wanna do it, the more green sources are required to support it (13-14). this whole experiment is relying on Call being VERY good at supporting the tempo plan)
I like the idea of having some useful spirit in the main, but when i look up for interesting options, I end up a bit frustrated, because kataki, labyrinth, eidolon and some other are really specific and I'm not going as far as having them MB.
With this said, I'll give permeating mass and nebelgast heral a try in the main, cause they can be either super good or good/medium ( a friend of mine, a very skilled player, told me of an episode where the faced Mass in modern and that wasn't that easy to navigate through it. this is all i know about the card), so this makes the cut for a couple flex slots, in my opinion. Not sure about executioner, I'm more into the single kira maindeck.
As for GoST, I think eladamri's doens't solve the problem of the turn it starts attacking. you either hierarch into gost turn 2, or it's a slow walker. I see it as a side option at most against non creature decks, once again.
Let me share my first idea, it's just something written on paper and side is just brainstorming, so take it for what it is:
As a note, I never play givers, thalias nor mariners because of a personal choice. I normally go full fliers and flash, so you might want to jam in the current stuff that puts up results.
Collector Ouphe could also be reasonable, but it shuts off vials which are really synergic with calls.
Regarding curious obsessions, the more i play spirits (UW, esper, jeskai) the more I understand this tribe can only work under three lines of play: 1) card advantage and selection and tempo advantage ( 4 mana to put in play more than 4 mana total costs) through collected company 2) Tempoing out the opponent via thalias and deputies 3) having sources of card draw that provide extra resources at least once in two turns ( teferi time raveler draws once into 4 and it's absolutely insufficient as a draw engine). So whenever you are not going for the first two, you have to find an alternative way to draw repeatedly and Obsession has been the best for me so far ( better than any tool like visions, opt, light up the stage, teferi time raveler, hyerogliphic illumination)
Yea, this is my concern indeed, finding the balance between the number of mana sources and the number of calls you want. Call can bee seen as a curve topper in this scenario, or an expensive way to get access to 1cmc drops, which at the moment are solely mausoleum wanderers ( since being strict on mana means you're not looking for sailor) or the singleton permeating mass if we wanna be spicy and we re facing creatures putting pressure that demand to be turned into 1/3s.
The reason why I'm thinking of an alternative version for bant is that to avoid the drawback of late game hierarchs and dekbuilding compromises in general, to try not to fully run into wrenn and sixes, lavadarts and such we already suffer enough, and at least gaining that extra selectivity that collected company doesn't guarantee ( although the two for one can't be replaced as an effect). This also allows to turn-3-play the best possible creature you have brought in after sideboard.
I have no idea if this thing has legs, I guess it's something worth exploring since so many times we ve been looking for selection with the ultimate goal of finding the right piece at the right time/right on time.
I am currently thinking of what an UW -splash green for eladamri's call ( 2 or 3 of) could give to this deck.
For example, it would represent extra copies of lords, kira, nebelgast herald, better accessibility to counterspell-like effects. It'd make the vial and rattlechains plan super interesting and it would turn the sideboard into a toolbox where you might fit all of the disruptive creatures like kataki, eidolon, spirit of the labyrinth, and some other good creature like eputy, teeg, ouphe and such.
Having access to permeating mass, nebelgast herald, and hanged executioner if that's the case, might also help us solving the Path to exile dilemma, that card you want to see twice in some games , one at most in some others.
I ve got no time now to build it online and test it, but I'll be giving this version (uw splash green) a shot in the future. Big attraction is also the new UG land which allows us to maximize on this effect while not losing colour sources.
How do you people find spell queller to be in the side? I have been running it as extra counter and to slow down the race against creature decks when people goes down on removal spells. the 3 body is reliable enough to block profitably thalias and similars sending them down a creature. It 's even a little bit better now we run teferi raveler. Another thing I like is that it counters Veto in the mirror match and it's immune to negate-type of effects. what's you take on queller?
regarding flame sweep vs. firespout, i just wanted to point out that the first actually has an application against opposing flyers (e.g. lingering souls tokens, stinkweed imp, flickerwisp,...), while firespout only cares if a creature flies or not.
No way to deal with Mantis rider save for paths, still.
Good point. My concern with the two damage spells is that they quickly fall out of spendibility, as a champion of the parish can get out of range as soon as turn two. I think that Sweep is just standard material.
Playing the jeskai version of spirits I also ended up getting a better understanding of this tribe, eventually convincing myself that the sideboard should cover three archetypes: graveyard, big mana and red aggro decks. This is what we struggle against the most, a strong and resilient form of inevitability or a blistering start from the opponent who manages to keep your board in check while dealing damages. Part of the anti-red cards must have overlaps in order to deal with thing in the ice which is a monster we lose to as soon as it flips most of the times.
the reasoning behind this is that as a tribe we naturally lack the ways to deal with go-wide strategies. Firespout could be an answer to this need, and it comes for basically free in an otherwise UW shell. Force of Negation in the main should be able to take care of the other kinds of matchup, so much that i decided to move deputy of detention(Debbie) in the sideboard.
i'm not sure whether we can fit light up the stage in, given that Force requires us to have a lot of blue cards. Unfortunately, with "only" 12 R sources, we can't afford to play lightning bolt. A possible solution would be to remove cavern of souls for inspiring vantage or spirebluff canal, but i decided to make the splash as minimal as I could.
btw re:unsettled mariner i 5-0 with him and I have to admit... it's not good.
interested in hearing your experience with Mariner.
As for firesprout, I ve seen a new card, Flame Sweep, which is an instant, but I guess dealing 3 damages instead of two accounts for the difference between a good standard card and a good modern one.
Using Nebelghast Herald one can even avoid PtEs completely, sticking to te tempo plan with the addition of the new lord
Herald is a good card, but it's still a 3 drop. That means it comes out way too late against many decks that demand path.
Problem's herald is not dealing with Vizier, Vannifar, Confidant. It just stops creatures from attacking, it won't help to keep your storm opponent from discounting their mana.
Also, as our deck ages , I get to realize how certain cards have gotten obsolete and they can't any longer find a place in the metagame. Herald has been one of the key pieces that won me FNMs and local tourneys during 2017 when shadow was big along with eldrazi. It's been excellent to deal with humans too, but now we ve got new tools and new threats to face, my Heralds are sitting in the place of honor in my spirits toolbox.
I've attended my first FNM with Jeskai going 4-0 with the neoform deck dying by itself on the last round, still being able to grab some informations, like the importance of 1cmc pieces of hate in the side (that could be Cage or force, yet I'm not sold on force in a deck with few ways to make card advantage).
Teferi Time Raveler is a key card to complement PtE in dealing with -out of bolt range- creatures, it adds solidity to the deck that otherwise lacks a value permanent. Dovin might be just as good, as far as the tempo plan is concerned, if it wasn't that TTR has a static ability that shuts control down and ruins the day to midrange deck ( quelled a spell, attacked and bounced it back to my hand ready to 2x1 them during their next turn. gg). My idea is that you need 4x MB answers to creatures like kalitas, goyf, thing in the ice and such. TTR is a tempo anwer, but I can swear the tempo swing is absolutely.
Horizon Lands are simply critical to dig for fuel in a deck that aims to play the game with 4 lands at most. Having a relatively low curve with no 4cmc spells, and just 10 3cmc drops, eight of which are vialable creatures, make the horizon lands way less painful, cause you re most likely cycling them soon. I've been testing Jeskai back in March with no TTR nor Horizon Lands, and the difference is perceivable to say the least.
Burn spells are excellent at playing the tempo game both aggressively, cutting your opponent off a turn, and defensively, spending one mana to deal with their 2/3 mana creature, or spending two to deal with it and gaining those 3 points of life which will most likely give you an extra turn, meaning an extra attack phase.
Also, as opposed to black, red removals go to the face so they are excellent against all of those big mana decks where Fatal Push and PtE would be dead cards. Worst case scenario, your opponent has got ways to gain life repeatedly, but hey, every strategy has got their weak spot.
Most importantly, because of the flexibility they provide, I ve been able to slam 5x burn along with 2PtE and 2 TTR, which makes an excellent removal/containment package against aggro decks. It's counterintuitive at a first glance, because the manabase is more painful so you'd be inclined to think it's getting your aggro matchup worse. Instead, you' re going up on the removal count, and those removals are not even ramping the opponent, so once you sit at the table and play you feel how good splashing B/R is at letting you take the control role against any creature deck.
Infect on the rise and humans tier1 are good news for this version.
Light up the Stage has been an intuition I ve had some months ago and it's been a solid 2of to be used in the mid/late game to pull ahead, it works nicely with a low curve, but the boost it provides is still limited to two cards and the new spectral sailor is now coming with the benefit of being a creature which adds damages to the race, synergizing, and overlapping Stage in the same situations where extra cards are required: if you have cards in your hand , then you re not out of gas and it's just an extra piece of pressure which goes along with your beatdown plan. If you're out of gas it draws without revealing ( where Stage lets you hold up more mana but can't let you recur to Vial, Spectral Sailor allows you to abuse your Aether Vials instead, giving no informations about what you've drawn). I'm pretty confident Sailor is going to be a good addition replacing any other card advantage engine in non-company decks.
With this said, this is where I'm at with Jeskai Spirits
Alpine moon won me the game against tron t1. That 1cmc is huge really, it lets you curve out. How many times i've found myslef in the position of having an empty turn one, with a turn two I had to spend in casting stony or Damping, delaying my race. Alpine moon made me curve out in my two drop and begin to attack earlier. Not sure about the split with Damping sphere, I may want more dampings if Amulet was more present in my meta.
I've not been playing Grafdigger's cage since february '18 where it lost me the finals against storm. They remove it and get full access to the GY, however: The new mulligan rule demands an early answer, so does bridgevine, and the bonus of stopping the new eladamri's call decks, company and such makes it worth testing again. I like Relic better, but relic has no static ability, and static is the keyword you need to approach this metagame.
I think I'm quite weak to cages(Urza thopters), this is the reason why I'm on 2x red Eidolons and Chandra. I'm not willing to give up on that matchup just to have my 3rd counterspell but I may be wrong. I'll wait to attend the new PTQs events before making changes.
Well, thanks for the service you've provided us so far. Hoping we'll have a new forum in the future which resembles this one. If so, I'll be still bringing my contribution and my experience there.
Maybe we might mark the posts by writing in capitals PIONEER on the top of the post so that it's clear what we re talking about
I like the idea of having some useful spirit in the main, but when i look up for interesting options, I end up a bit frustrated, because kataki, labyrinth, eidolon and some other are really specific and I'm not going as far as having them MB.
With this said, I'll give permeating mass and nebelgast heral a try in the main, cause they can be either super good or good/medium ( a friend of mine, a very skilled player, told me of an episode where the faced Mass in modern and that wasn't that easy to navigate through it. this is all i know about the card), so this makes the cut for a couple flex slots, in my opinion. Not sure about executioner, I'm more into the single kira maindeck.
As for GoST, I think eladamri's doens't solve the problem of the turn it starts attacking. you either hierarch into gost turn 2, or it's a slow walker. I see it as a side option at most against non creature decks, once again.
Let me share my first idea, it's just something written on paper and side is just brainstorming, so take it for what it is:
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
1 Spectral Sailor
1 Permeating Mass
3 Selfless Spirit
4 Rattlechains
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol Captain
1 Nebelgast Herald
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Spells: 12
4 Aether Vial
3 Path to Exile
2 Curious Obsession
3 Eladamri's Call
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
3 Seachrome Coast
1 Botanical Sanctum
2 Waterlogged Grove
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Remorseful Cleric
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Azorius Herald
1 Hanged Executioner
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Ephara, God of the Polis
2 Rest in Peace
1 Damping Sphere
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
1 Unified Will
As a note, I never play givers, thalias nor mariners because of a personal choice. I normally go full fliers and flash, so you might want to jam in the current stuff that puts up results.
Collector Ouphe could also be reasonable, but it shuts off vials which are really synergic with calls.
Regarding curious obsessions, the more i play spirits (UW, esper, jeskai) the more I understand this tribe can only work under three lines of play: 1) card advantage and selection and tempo advantage ( 4 mana to put in play more than 4 mana total costs) through collected company 2) Tempoing out the opponent via thalias and deputies 3) having sources of card draw that provide extra resources at least once in two turns ( teferi time raveler draws once into 4 and it's absolutely insufficient as a draw engine). So whenever you are not going for the first two, you have to find an alternative way to draw repeatedly and Obsession has been the best for me so far ( better than any tool like visions, opt, light up the stage, teferi time raveler, hyerogliphic illumination)
The reason why I'm thinking of an alternative version for bant is that to avoid the drawback of late game hierarchs and dekbuilding compromises in general, to try not to fully run into wrenn and sixes, lavadarts and such we already suffer enough, and at least gaining that extra selectivity that collected company doesn't guarantee ( although the two for one can't be replaced as an effect). This also allows to turn-3-play the best possible creature you have brought in after sideboard.
I have no idea if this thing has legs, I guess it's something worth exploring since so many times we ve been looking for selection with the ultimate goal of finding the right piece at the right time/right on time.
For example, it would represent extra copies of lords, kira, nebelgast herald, better accessibility to counterspell-like effects. It'd make the vial and rattlechains plan super interesting and it would turn the sideboard into a toolbox where you might fit all of the disruptive creatures like kataki, eidolon, spirit of the labyrinth, and some other good creature like eputy, teeg, ouphe and such.
Having access to permeating mass, nebelgast herald, and hanged executioner if that's the case, might also help us solving the Path to exile dilemma, that card you want to see twice in some games , one at most in some others.
I ve got no time now to build it online and test it, but I'll be giving this version (uw splash green) a shot in the future. Big attraction is also the new UG land which allows us to maximize on this effect while not losing colour sources.
Good point. My concern with the two damage spells is that they quickly fall out of spendibility, as a champion of the parish can get out of range as soon as turn two. I think that Sweep is just standard material.
Playing the jeskai version of spirits I also ended up getting a better understanding of this tribe, eventually convincing myself that the sideboard should cover three archetypes: graveyard, big mana and red aggro decks. This is what we struggle against the most, a strong and resilient form of inevitability or a blistering start from the opponent who manages to keep your board in check while dealing damages. Part of the anti-red cards must have overlaps in order to deal with thing in the ice which is a monster we lose to as soon as it flips most of the times.
interested in hearing your experience with Mariner.
As for firesprout, I ve seen a new card, Flame Sweep, which is an instant, but I guess dealing 3 damages instead of two accounts for the difference between a good standard card and a good modern one.
Problem's herald is not dealing with Vizier, Vannifar, Confidant. It just stops creatures from attacking, it won't help to keep your storm opponent from discounting their mana.
Also, as our deck ages , I get to realize how certain cards have gotten obsolete and they can't any longer find a place in the metagame. Herald has been one of the key pieces that won me FNMs and local tourneys during 2017 when shadow was big along with eldrazi. It's been excellent to deal with humans too, but now we ve got new tools and new threats to face, my Heralds are sitting in the place of honor in my spirits toolbox.
Teferi Time Raveler is a key card to complement PtE in dealing with -out of bolt range- creatures, it adds solidity to the deck that otherwise lacks a value permanent. Dovin might be just as good, as far as the tempo plan is concerned, if it wasn't that TTR has a static ability that shuts control down and ruins the day to midrange deck ( quelled a spell, attacked and bounced it back to my hand ready to 2x1 them during their next turn. gg). My idea is that you need 4x MB answers to creatures like kalitas, goyf, thing in the ice and such. TTR is a tempo anwer, but I can swear the tempo swing is absolutely.
Horizon Lands are simply critical to dig for fuel in a deck that aims to play the game with 4 lands at most. Having a relatively low curve with no 4cmc spells, and just 10 3cmc drops, eight of which are vialable creatures, make the horizon lands way less painful, cause you re most likely cycling them soon. I've been testing Jeskai back in March with no TTR nor Horizon Lands, and the difference is perceivable to say the least.
Burn spells are excellent at playing the tempo game both aggressively, cutting your opponent off a turn, and defensively, spending one mana to deal with their 2/3 mana creature, or spending two to deal with it and gaining those 3 points of life which will most likely give you an extra turn, meaning an extra attack phase.
Also, as opposed to black, red removals go to the face so they are excellent against all of those big mana decks where Fatal Push and PtE would be dead cards. Worst case scenario, your opponent has got ways to gain life repeatedly, but hey, every strategy has got their weak spot.
Most importantly, because of the flexibility they provide, I ve been able to slam 5x burn along with 2PtE and 2 TTR, which makes an excellent removal/containment package against aggro decks. It's counterintuitive at a first glance, because the manabase is more painful so you'd be inclined to think it's getting your aggro matchup worse. Instead, you' re going up on the removal count, and those removals are not even ramping the opponent, so once you sit at the table and play you feel how good splashing B/R is at letting you take the control role against any creature deck.
Infect on the rise and humans tier1 are good news for this version.
Light up the Stage has been an intuition I ve had some months ago and it's been a solid 2of to be used in the mid/late game to pull ahead, it works nicely with a low curve, but the boost it provides is still limited to two cards and the new spectral sailor is now coming with the benefit of being a creature which adds damages to the race, synergizing, and overlapping Stage in the same situations where extra cards are required: if you have cards in your hand , then you re not out of gas and it's just an extra piece of pressure which goes along with your beatdown plan. If you're out of gas it draws without revealing ( where Stage lets you hold up more mana but can't let you recur to Vial, Spectral Sailor allows you to abuse your Aether Vials instead, giving no informations about what you've drawn). I'm pretty confident Sailor is going to be a good addition replacing any other card advantage engine in non-company decks.
With this said, this is where I'm at with Jeskai Spirits
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
2 Spectral Sailor
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Rattlechains
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol Captain
Spells: 13
4 Aether Vial
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
Land: 21
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Inspiring Vantage
2 Fiery Islet
1 Sunbaked Canyon
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Stony Silence
1 Damping Sphere
2 Alpine Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest In Peace
1 Mana Leak
1 Force of Negation
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Dovin, Grand Arbiter
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Alpine moon won me the game against tron t1. That 1cmc is huge really, it lets you curve out. How many times i've found myslef in the position of having an empty turn one, with a turn two I had to spend in casting stony or Damping, delaying my race. Alpine moon made me curve out in my two drop and begin to attack earlier. Not sure about the split with Damping sphere, I may want more dampings if Amulet was more present in my meta.
I've not been playing Grafdigger's cage since february '18 where it lost me the finals against storm. They remove it and get full access to the GY, however: The new mulligan rule demands an early answer, so does bridgevine, and the bonus of stopping the new eladamri's call decks, company and such makes it worth testing again. I like Relic better, but relic has no static ability, and static is the keyword you need to approach this metagame.
I think I'm quite weak to cages(Urza thopters), this is the reason why I'm on 2x red Eidolons and Chandra. I'm not willing to give up on that matchup just to have my 3rd counterspell but I may be wrong. I'll wait to attend the new PTQs events before making changes.
Happy brewing folks!