This thread should be disabled until the next ban/unban occurs.
A venue to bring up your dislike or approval of the modern ban list is necessary.
Even if it gets a little stale or redundant, it's nice to have a place where your opinion can be posted and critiqued without clogging up another thread.
I always thought Cranial Plating could be swapped with the artifact lands with minimal harm done.
IIRC standard Ravager Affinity didn't use cranial plating, instead it used Myr Enforcer/Frogmite and Disciple of the Vault. Unbanning artifact lands would make Affinity Tier 0 with no competition, even if u were to ban the plating. Granted skullclamp is still banned, but there is still more harm to be done then good from this.
Been rocking this now since theros. Very good results. I found my BoP and Deathrites being bolted and pyroclasmed away too often. The Sylvans may not be able to spit out turn 2 lili's but it does make turn 3 gifts more consistent. Also the butt of 3 helps keep kird apes and such at bay.
Other recent changes I've made is the Horizon Canopy. It's been nuts in the control matchup with life from the loam.
You could prove his innocence via testing heavily, and showing results that suggest he's not overpowered. As for Miracles... Well, I can't say you're wrong, because it would love some Tops and good cantrips, but Jace alone is demonstrably enough to make a Miracles shell absolutely insane.
Also, I think you're missing the point about Karn vs. Jace. Let me try to put it another way:
Karn on turn 3 requires your deck to be built around getting to that end. You're gonna be spending the first few turns of the game getting your tron lands, setting up your position so that you can play a turn 3 Karn. Meanwhile, your opponent is allowed to goldfish you for 2-3 turns, so they can play their Deathrites, Lilianas, Discard, Fulminator Mages post-board, Serum Visions to get counter magic, and so on. Essentially, you're not spending 1 card to play a turn 3 Karn, you're spending several cards and a LOT of tempo to get it down.
Jace, on the other hand, requires none of that. Playing it on turn four requires no more setup than the basic "play 24+ mana sources". As such, all that time in the turns beforehand, and all that mana, and all those cards you used to set up Karn, can instead be used to disrupt your opponent by killing their creatures, attacking their hand, countering their spells, etc. In short, the game state when you cast Karn vs. when you cast Jace is very different: with Karn, it has to not only protect itself, but WIN THE GAME on its own, because you spent a lot of resources getting to the point you could cast it. Jace, on the other hand, can be run out after you've bolted one guy and countered another, maybe taken something out of their hand, so that when it brainstorms it stands a good chance to survive to the next turn. If it doesn't, you got a brainstorm and 3 life out of the deal, while your opponent is probably down a card. If it does, the game is almost certainly over.
You have a decent point about comparing Jace to Legacy, so maybe this will convince you: Jace is not a proactive win con that you rely on to immediately win the game. Instead, he is an engine, one that will generate massive card advantage while simultaneously digging very deep into your deck. As such, if answers exist to the other decks, those answers will be at their best alongside Jace. There are powerful answers to these combos, therefore they will be powerful alongside Jace. It doesn't matter how good the other decks are. If there are effective answers to them, Jace will be powerful (assuming the format is slow enough to play Jace or has the inherent acceleration to make Jace playable sooner). Since these conditions hold true for Jace, Jace WILL be powerful, even dominant.
The last thing is simple: Jace is fundamentally, demonstrably too powerful for the format. My Miracles experiment is hardly concrete proof, but all the margin of error points up, not down, meaning that if my deck is an inaccurate image of Jace's power, then it is inaccurate because it is weaker than it should be, not stronger. As such, we can say with some certainty that Jace is not a safe unban, because I can show you a list with him that is too powerful for the format and you can see so for yourself.
I understand what your saying. In hindsight comparing a card that just needs to be played out of a deck to a card that requires synergy with numerous others was not the right way to present my argument. Now is probably too soon for a card like Jace to come off, but with the power creep in creatures, soon control is going to need a engine like Jace just to compete.
wtf, again for the 1023230th time, you can't compare t3 karn with jtms.
It's very obvious, yet some still don't realize it, maybe if I explain they will stop (joke).
1. Turn3 karn can not be played as often as a t4 jtms.
2. Playing karn means your whole deck is dedicated to playing this card, and similar ones like wurmcoil (if you don't understand that I'll clarify: dedicading your deck to play fast Karns has an obvious tradeoff, the cards you can play are much fewer in the card pool, aka colorless), whereas if you want to play jtms you just have to play blue (duh). To be able to play a fast Karn you had to spend time and resources previously to be able to, but when you play jtms, you just had to play 4 lands.
I disagree. I can goldfish turn 3/4 karn or wurmcoil 9/10 games. Being able to "Just play blue" to play him isn't that great.Il Not every blue deck will run Jace just because they can. He's no DRS after all.
Also I am realistic, I don't think Jace will be unbanned anytime soon. As the format gets larger and the power level of other strategies increases, I think he would come off in the future.
For now I'd settle for bitter blossom and sword of the meek.
You have no clue as to how the card functions, you are stripping potential answers every turn Jace is active, whether its a creature, a potential spell on the top of their library, or in card advantage.
Jace protects himself in every single way possible, based on all the mechanics of Magic.
I understand how Fateseal works. Its not anymore powerful than any turn 3 play that tron, Jund, or affinity can pull.
Honestly the only reason people have a disdain for the card is because a price tag. This is modern. Jace hasn't fought vs the likes of living end or storm or tron or affinity... and no comparing Jace in legacy (a format that favors blue) to Jace in modern (blue based control not-existant) is ludicrous.
He doesn't break the turn 4 rule, he wont push any arc type to the top of the charts.
Like the majority of the preemptive bans, he seems to be guilty until proven innocent. How can we prove his innocence though?
Modern is slow enough of a format that jace is just insane. The reason it's not broken in legacy is because of the difficulty to even reach 4 mana but here it's no problem at all in a blue deck so you just get to brainstorm over and over in a format that's lacking in card draw.. yeah no thanks.
I don't understand this train of thought... in a slower format, cards like Jace will loose power. You can't drop him and go nuts with his 0 or - ability. This format has so many creatures out by the time Jace hits the field that the only real safe option if you plan to untap with him is to +2. In legacy you can get away with 0 more often because lightning bolt is not splashed into damn near every archetype.
Again I come back to Karn vs Jace on turn 3. Which one of these options has a higher chance to sway the game: unsummon, fate seal, or sorcery speed brainstorm VS exile target permanent or exile a card from hand. The amount of tempo you gain from Karn puts Jace to shame. Hell even a turn 3 wurmcoil outclasses turn 3 Jace in the aggro matchup.
If he is unbanned, he will show up in a lot of decks, but he isn't format warping. Most decks already have answers for him. You don't need to bring anything extra in your SB to combat him.
As for Jace in a miracles deck, he wouldn't be bad, but that archetype really wants divining top and ponder/preordain more then Jace.
The deck is far from perfect but its been fish bowling pretty decently.
Blood Scrivener, Gathan raiders capitalize on the many times this deck has no hand.
I feel there needs to be a 2nd discard outlet other than Oona's Prowler at the 2CMC range, but there is nothing that efficient in modern right now.
Here, let's read the oracle text on the last ability together.
How in in the high heavens, are you claiming this card cannot win single-handedly?
Have you watched any Legacy coverage lately?
That also requires for Jace to go unanswered for 6 turns. So assuming he is dropped turn 4(3 with acceleration) you still have a win con on turn 10(9). Also legacy is able to drop him with the confidence he'll survive until you untap due to utility of free counter spells.
Karn on turn 3 can win you the game with one activation of -3. Saying "this planeswalker is broken because its ultimate move wins" is not a very valid argument. WotC has designed the majority of PW to have a "I win" ultimate.
Jace could see fair play in modern where people don't drop him turn 1-2 (vintage) or have "free spells" to back him up (legacy/vintage). The fact that he was banned because he was too good for Standard (a format that never had to see turn 3 karn/wurmcoils) or very powerful in legacy/vintage (has way better protection/acceleration) has no herring on the modern format.
If Jace got unbanned, would he see a lot of modern play? I as well as many others probably can agree, he will initially be played on the same level as lightning bolt and DRS. After the initial hype and people start to realize he's not as "I win" as a turn 3 karn or turn 2 liliana then I think he would settle down to 3-4 control decks... and definatley not a 4 of.
A venue to bring up your dislike or approval of the modern ban list is necessary.
Even if it gets a little stale or redundant, it's nice to have a place where your opinion can be posted and critiqued without clogging up another thread.
IIRC standard Ravager Affinity didn't use cranial plating, instead it used Myr Enforcer/Frogmite and Disciple of the Vault. Unbanning artifact lands would make Affinity Tier 0 with no competition, even if u were to ban the plating. Granted skullclamp is still banned, but there is still more harm to be done then good from this.
UU counter target spell with CMC 3 or less.
1 Academy Ruins
1 Breeding Pool
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Eternal Witness
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sun Titan
2 Sylvan Caryatid
// Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
1 Raven's Crime
1 Unburial Rites
1 Batterskull
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
1 Extirpate
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Negate
2 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God
Been rocking this now since theros. Very good results. I found my BoP and Deathrites being bolted and pyroclasmed away too often. The Sylvans may not be able to spit out turn 2 lili's but it does make turn 3 gifts more consistent. Also the butt of 3 helps keep kird apes and such at bay.
Other recent changes I've made is the Horizon Canopy. It's been nuts in the control matchup with life from the loam.
I understand what your saying. In hindsight comparing a card that just needs to be played out of a deck to a card that requires synergy with numerous others was not the right way to present my argument. Now is probably too soon for a card like Jace to come off, but with the power creep in creatures, soon control is going to need a engine like Jace just to compete.
I disagree. I can goldfish turn 3/4 karn or wurmcoil 9/10 games. Being able to "Just play blue" to play him isn't that great.Il Not every blue deck will run Jace just because they can. He's no DRS after all.
Also I am realistic, I don't think Jace will be unbanned anytime soon. As the format gets larger and the power level of other strategies increases, I think he would come off in the future.
For now I'd settle for bitter blossom and sword of the meek.
I understand how Fateseal works. Its not anymore powerful than any turn 3 play that tron, Jund, or affinity can pull.
Honestly the only reason people have a disdain for the card is because a price tag. This is modern. Jace hasn't fought vs the likes of living end or storm or tron or affinity... and no comparing Jace in legacy (a format that favors blue) to Jace in modern (blue based control not-existant) is ludicrous.
He doesn't break the turn 4 rule, he wont push any arc type to the top of the charts.
Like the majority of the preemptive bans, he seems to be guilty until proven innocent. How can we prove his innocence though?
I don't understand this train of thought... in a slower format, cards like Jace will loose power. You can't drop him and go nuts with his 0 or - ability. This format has so many creatures out by the time Jace hits the field that the only real safe option if you plan to untap with him is to +2. In legacy you can get away with 0 more often because lightning bolt is not splashed into damn near every archetype.
Again I come back to Karn vs Jace on turn 3. Which one of these options has a higher chance to sway the game: unsummon, fate seal, or sorcery speed brainstorm VS exile target permanent or exile a card from hand. The amount of tempo you gain from Karn puts Jace to shame. Hell even a turn 3 wurmcoil outclasses turn 3 Jace in the aggro matchup.
If he is unbanned, he will show up in a lot of decks, but he isn't format warping. Most decks already have answers for him. You don't need to bring anything extra in your SB to combat him.
As for Jace in a miracles deck, he wouldn't be bad, but that archetype really wants divining top and ponder/preordain more then Jace.
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
1 Ghitu Encampment
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Marsh Flats
2 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Blood Scrivener
3 Brain Gorgers
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Reckless Wurm
3 Stormblood Berserker
3 Tombstalker
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lightning Axe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Reforge the Soul
2 Terminate
The deck is far from perfect but its been fish bowling pretty decently.
Blood Scrivener, Gathan raiders capitalize on the many times this deck has no hand.
I feel there needs to be a 2nd discard outlet other than Oona's Prowler at the 2CMC range, but there is nothing that efficient in modern right now.
That also requires for Jace to go unanswered for 6 turns. So assuming he is dropped turn 4(3 with acceleration) you still have a win con on turn 10(9). Also legacy is able to drop him with the confidence he'll survive until you untap due to utility of free counter spells.
Karn on turn 3 can win you the game with one activation of -3. Saying "this planeswalker is broken because its ultimate move wins" is not a very valid argument. WotC has designed the majority of PW to have a "I win" ultimate.
Jace could see fair play in modern where people don't drop him turn 1-2 (vintage) or have "free spells" to back him up (legacy/vintage). The fact that he was banned because he was too good for Standard (a format that never had to see turn 3 karn/wurmcoils) or very powerful in legacy/vintage (has way better protection/acceleration) has no herring on the modern format.
If Jace got unbanned, would he see a lot of modern play? I as well as many others probably can agree, he will initially be played on the same level as lightning bolt and DRS. After the initial hype and people start to realize he's not as "I win" as a turn 3 karn or turn 2 liliana then I think he would settle down to 3-4 control decks... and definatley not a 4 of.
Head in the sand. Hiding from the truth.
~Would bring back my favorite standard deck ever with these.
~Could get at least 2-3 new deck archtypes out of this... Tight Sight, Turbofog...