Soon, we say goodbye to MTGSalvation, and along with it, this thread. Over 2 years ago, I stumbled onto this thread while looking for a new modern deck. I had always thought "Free Win Red" was a cool deck, but I thought it was missing something (keep in mind, the original FWR did not include Chalice), and I didn't want to invest in a deck and hate it. When I found this thread, I found what I was missing. Goblin Rabblemaster. Raystack had the beginnings of something great, and I knew it. Very few of us did at the time, but I believed. I bought into the deck a week later and I haven't strayed since. Raystack and the community was the reason I stayed with it through the hard times, and the times got much, much better!
A while into playing the deck, we got Chandra, Torch of Defiance. We tested, and debated, and tested some more until we had a list that we thought could compete. It was around then that we had a vote on what we would call the deck, and because of the decks two halves, aggro and prison, I suggested the name Pyro Prison, and it stuck. Our small group of players began to put up results, and when Ray took down a 1k, more people started noticing.. started believing.
One of those people was Stickballruss, who took notice of Ray's 1k performance. He tuned the list, using previous successful lists as inspiration, that would become known as the stock, or classic list. He took that list to back to back top 8s in SCG classics. The word was out, and people started flooding in. The power of the core 50 was now obvious to those willing to consider prison a viable archetype in modern.
Around that time, a savvy contributor asked if anyone would have interest in watching him stream Pyro Prison on Twitch. We were very interested! Fluffywolf2 began streaming Pyro Prison on a regular basis, and as he learned the deck, even the most experienced of us learned along with him. Fluffy's stream has proven to be the most valuable learning tool we've had in our community, because as it turns out, Fluffy happens to be one of the best streamers out there. When someone wants to learn the lines of play or how to sideboard, the first thing I do is recommend his stream. He's our secret weapon, and in my opinion, not only our biggest ambassador, bringing in a whole new group of players, but our best player as well.
All of this has culminated in countless tournament wins, top 8s, 5-0 trophies and more, from not just our ever growing community, but from players who saw the success of the community and picked up the deck. We've seen the deck top 8 tournaments in multiple countries by a multitude of names. Red Prison is firmly on the modern radar, and our brand, Pyro Prison is recognized all over the internet. None of this is possible without MTGSalvation. This is where it started in its crudest form, and evolved through hours and hours and years of dedication by a hivemind that is unlike any other community in magic. We have Ray to thank for it.
Recent days have been slower here with the community moving over to discord, but the hivemind is stronger than ever, and so is the deck. You have to get lucky to get a 5-0 list published with the amount of people winning with the deck, in fact, only 1 of my 4 5-0s got published this month. This is a great sign. The deck is doing big things, and they're only getting bigger. We lose MTGSalvation, but we continue on our quest to break modern! If you haven't joined already, come on over to the discord and continue this journey with us, Mountainfolk! Hope to see you there!
There's alot to unwrap there, Marulo. First off, congrats on the performance! As far as your thoughts on Karn, let me say that you shouldn't judge him at all without Liquimetal Coating. He's a different beast with that card. Where t1 Chandra fails, t1 Karn into Coating makes it so your opponent never gets off 1 or 2 lands, and if they miss land drops its over if it isnt already. This feels especially powerful against Tron. This is also wjere Trinisphere comes in, not as a wish target, against decks such as UR Phoenix that want to play multiple spells in a turn. 3-Ball into Karn into Coating is especially oppressive. Karn should be tjought of as an early game lock piece, midgame utility, and late game wincon. Just his static ability alone is enough to hinder quite a few decks in modern, and the win ratio everyone is putting up is proving Karn fits right in with the 8-Rabnle plan. Keep getting your reps in, specifically with the Coating package. Sideboarding is very different now and takes time to master, but once you understand what you need and when, it's easier than it seems.
Hello Mountainfolk! As we know, War of the Spark drops next week, and we're all curious about Karn, the Great Creator, as well as Blast Zone. I've spent the last week or so testing them, getting in 31 matches against competitive decks, and I have a nice starting point for the discussion. Here's what I've been running;
9 Lock- moving a Chalice and a Bridge to the side feels like a great plan with Karn, allowing you to wish for a midgame Chalice on 2/3 to complete your lock, or in a pinch, just grabbing a Bridge and saving life by letting him die. I went a step further and dropped the 4th Bridge all together, and I haven't missed it. It feels like I'm running 5.
22 Land- With not only the addition of Karn, and the 6-drop combo piece he brings with him, but the addition of Blast Zone, adding another land hasn't hurt one bit, and has made everything nice and smooth. It also makes me more comfortable running a 7th 4-drop, which is Pia and Kiran, who is great with Karn.
8 Rabble, less Chandra- the idea is simple, clog the board with must-answer threats, or clear the way with removal long enough to find Karn. I haven't missed the 4th Chandra at all.
Karn- In matchups where we take a control role, he takes over the game in just a few turns. It crushes troubling matchups like Hardened Scales and Tron, where I played Karn to shut off O. Stone game 2 and they played Thragtusk, which is usually trouble for us. In this case I was able to grab a Bridge and it won me a game I normally would've lost. There's no doubt in my mind, he's a staple. The question is, how many? 3 has felt good so far.
Blast Zone- jury is still out as a 2-of, but it's definitely a 1-of. Things I've killed with it: Search for Azcanta, Detention Sphere, double Death's Shadow, Auriok Champion, and a Teferi with 8 loyalty.. so it's not bad!
Here's a few things to think about as far as the sideboard;
Welding Jar vs Spellskite- while Skite is better in more matchups, you can wish for Jar and play it the same turn, which is big. I won a game vs Jund because of it. It also protects the Lattice combo.
Batterskull- probably the weakest card. While it seems great, you really want it against control, and while I've wished for it a few times, it's lower impact than I hoped.. it might be better off being Hazoret or Stormbreath for the control matchup.
Relic/Crypt?- If you wish for an important 1-of and it gets destroyed, it could be useful to be able to exile your own graveyard.. in the case of Relic, it would give you infinite wish targets. I haven't tried It, but it could be useful.
I'm excited to see what you guys think and come up with in the next couple weeks, as well as my long awaited debut on MTGO with our new toys at my disposal!
I love the Ballista idea, I actually split Warboss and Ballista 2/2. I've been running the stock list for over a year straight, and I totally stand by the list, I just try not to steer everyone to it when they've customized the list to their liking. Your list is very close now, and I expect you can do well.
Also, I forgot to mention this yesterday, but with GB, Tron, Humans etc.. Magus of the Moon could be decent over the Jaya in the board. Just a thought.
In matchups like Humans, Spirits, etc, where they puke out creatures, the tokens our goblins make just die and we end up with useless 2/2s. Against those matchups we take a control role, siding out aggro and bringing in Angers, Torpor Orb/Spyglass/Matrix, etc, whatever you need, and plan to lock the opponent out and win with walkers or Hazoret discard. For matchups like Control, Storm, Tron, etc, where ending the game quickly is most important, we side out useless lock pieces for more aggro. That leaves matchups like Burn, where we have no problem killing their creatures, but it's hard to empty your hand for Bridge, where you swap some goblins for Eidolons, drop Bridges for Angers and Witchbane Orb, in your case (gotta watch out for those curses!). Fluffywolf or Stickballruss will help you clear all that kind of stuff if you watch their streams.
As for Hazoret, have you considered Koth of the Hammer? Many of us run him with 14 Mountains with no problem, and he ends the game pretty quick behind Bridge. I wouldn't worry too much about a discard outlet, we have 34 free cards in the deck (21 land, 9 Rituals and Chalice), we can just throw them away in a pinch.
I totally get your reasoning behind Jet, but I wanted to expand on Purphoros. Yes, he feels like he could be great in some situations, but he's a 4-drop that does nothing when you play him, and if he's actually effective, you're probably already winning the game. If he's able to swing, you've probably already won, and if you have some Rabbles going you're probably ahead.. game 1 behind a hellbent Bridge vs a creature deck is probably close to GG anyway, which is the only time I can see him being good, because in games 2-3 you're boarding out as many goblins as possible, making him a dead card. Obviously you'll side him out, meaning you'll have to keep a less than optimal card in in it's place.
Good luck at your IQ, Charlie! I really like Jaya here with the information you have on the meta, and assuming you don't run into alot of unknown players, I like the extra Warboss. I'm not too sure about Purphoros though.. along with already having 6 other 4 drops, I might cut him for Warboss number 4.
Interesting choice with Magma Jet.. obviously for the scry, which is great. While 2 damage rather than 3 is not too bad given your expected matchups (a few humans are x/3, but not much else), Abrade is much better against Amulet and Tron.
If you expect to see a number of Humans, 2 Hazoret in the main is risky. I always side Hazoret out against Humans because of Phantasmal Image, as it's hard to beat a Haz on the wrong side of the field. It's going to be tough to side out all the dead cards in this matchup with so many creatures in the main, you'll probably just have to risk it.
Cutting Uba Mask could free up a spot in the side for another control card that's good in creature matchups, as you don't expect to see Control, and packing 7-8 Rabble should help that matchup anyway.. I might consider another Anger. It gives you 1 more card to bring in for a dead creature.
Lastly, Mutavault vs Scavenger Grounds.. the 2 decks you expect to see the most of are graveyard based.. that might be a good switch as well.
Over the past couple years, we've seen many popular players and content creators feature Pyro Prison (although sometimes not acknowledging our brand), and stumble and punt through leagues while spectators comment on how bad the deck is. Comments range from "the deck takes no skill to play" to "FreeLossRed", or, as a well known pro player tweeted yesterday, the deck says "I only want to beat the Phoenix deck, but only sometimes"(I'm paraphrasing because he's a douche).
Mr. Olive's stream was no different. If you're interested in learning how to effectively pilot Pyro Prison, this will not be the video for you. Any one of us can point out dozens of obvious misplays, which many of us discussed at length yesterday (we won't go into those, because it would take until page 200). It doesn't take a Prison expert to see that he did not play well.
A well versed Prison player can tell you that from lines of play, to sideboarding strategy, to deck construction, it was fundamentally flawed. However it doesn't take obvious misplays to lose games with this deck, just little tiny ones. The perception that we win for free is not an accurate one. Sure, sometimes we play a turn 1 Moon and just win, but every deck has it's nut draws, and I'm certain nobody here has went 5-0 on MTGO or spiked a tournament by Mooning people out every game. Like Raystack said, "it's better to be lucky than good", but with this deck, you need to be both to win consistantly. That's the difference between 5-0 and 3-2.. between day 1 and day 2.
I want to give you an example of what I'm talking about. Last night I played a match against Merfolk. It was game 3, and I was at 2 life with Damping Matrix, Bridge, Koth with 5 counters, 6 Mountains, a Caverns, and a Bridge in my hand. My opponent has 2 Mutavault and a 1/1 Biomancer that just came into play. Hes played 3 Repeal and a Hurkyl's Recall so far, which are exiled. I draw a Spyglass and get a Koth emblem. What is the correct play here? There are 3 lines here that get us there most of the time. I chose to play Spyglass naming Mutavault. It gets Spell Pierced.. I have 5 mana, and I decide to pay for it to shut down the Vaults, but... he has another Pierce. At this point I could've just said ok and played Bridge, but I decided to pay the 2 and ping the 1/1. I do so and he reveals Dismember and a Lord. I'm in good shape and I should win from here.. but he draws his 4th Repeal. He bounces Spyglass and swings with the Vaults.
After the match, my opponent told me he had 1 more Recall along with the 4th Repeal. The line I took gave him 2 outs. If I would've emptied my hand, Repeal would've allowed him to bounce Matrix, swing with Biomancer and Adapt for the win. If I played nothing, he needed Repeal, Lord, Lord. So, did I get unlucky? Sure. I win that game 90% of the time with the line I took. It's easy to say I got unlucky. But the truth is, I gave the game away, and it probably wouldn't have appeared so on stream.
We as a community know what this deck is all about, and we actually love the hate. The salt is the best part! We all hope we continue to be written off as a "meme". We welcome Seth or anyone else to showcase "FreeWinPunt" anytime they want! It just makes the salt even saltier when we win. If you're just starting out on the deck, keep your lines and decisions tight and you'll be rewarded. Take the naysayers' opinions with a grain of SALT.
Nice work Ray! As far as Angrath goes, the question is how hard you found it to get double black.. if you didn't have too much trouble, I don't think you could go wrong just making him another Lilli!
[quote from="joymonger »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/control/663335-pyro-prison-goblinized-mono-red-control-the?comment=3318"]Also, I recently came upon the card War's Toll and was thinking it could be very powerful. What do you guys think?
That looks interesting, unfortunately it's not modern legal.
A while into playing the deck, we got Chandra, Torch of Defiance. We tested, and debated, and tested some more until we had a list that we thought could compete. It was around then that we had a vote on what we would call the deck, and because of the decks two halves, aggro and prison, I suggested the name Pyro Prison, and it stuck. Our small group of players began to put up results, and when Ray took down a 1k, more people started noticing.. started believing.
One of those people was Stickballruss, who took notice of Ray's 1k performance. He tuned the list, using previous successful lists as inspiration, that would become known as the stock, or classic list. He took that list to back to back top 8s in SCG classics. The word was out, and people started flooding in. The power of the core 50 was now obvious to those willing to consider prison a viable archetype in modern.
Around that time, a savvy contributor asked if anyone would have interest in watching him stream Pyro Prison on Twitch. We were very interested! Fluffywolf2 began streaming Pyro Prison on a regular basis, and as he learned the deck, even the most experienced of us learned along with him. Fluffy's stream has proven to be the most valuable learning tool we've had in our community, because as it turns out, Fluffy happens to be one of the best streamers out there. When someone wants to learn the lines of play or how to sideboard, the first thing I do is recommend his stream. He's our secret weapon, and in my opinion, not only our biggest ambassador, bringing in a whole new group of players, but our best player as well.
All of this has culminated in countless tournament wins, top 8s, 5-0 trophies and more, from not just our ever growing community, but from players who saw the success of the community and picked up the deck. We've seen the deck top 8 tournaments in multiple countries by a multitude of names. Red Prison is firmly on the modern radar, and our brand, Pyro Prison is recognized all over the internet. None of this is possible without MTGSalvation. This is where it started in its crudest form, and evolved through hours and hours and years of dedication by a hivemind that is unlike any other community in magic. We have Ray to thank for it.
Recent days have been slower here with the community moving over to discord, but the hivemind is stronger than ever, and so is the deck. You have to get lucky to get a 5-0 list published with the amount of people winning with the deck, in fact, only 1 of my 4 5-0s got published this month. This is a great sign. The deck is doing big things, and they're only getting bigger. We lose MTGSalvation, but we continue on our quest to break modern! If you haven't joined already, come on over to the discord and continue this journey with us, Mountainfolk! Hope to see you there!
4 Legion Warboss
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Blood Moon
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Slagstorm
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Ramunap Ruins
3 Gemstone Caverns
2 Blast Zone
13 Mountain
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Walking Ballista
1 Welding Jar
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Torpor Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Mycosynth Lattice
Here's the idea behind some of my choices:
9 Lock- moving a Chalice and a Bridge to the side feels like a great plan with Karn, allowing you to wish for a midgame Chalice on 2/3 to complete your lock, or in a pinch, just grabbing a Bridge and saving life by letting him die. I went a step further and dropped the 4th Bridge all together, and I haven't missed it. It feels like I'm running 5.
22 Land- With not only the addition of Karn, and the 6-drop combo piece he brings with him, but the addition of Blast Zone, adding another land hasn't hurt one bit, and has made everything nice and smooth. It also makes me more comfortable running a 7th 4-drop, which is Pia and Kiran, who is great with Karn.
8 Rabble, less Chandra- the idea is simple, clog the board with must-answer threats, or clear the way with removal long enough to find Karn. I haven't missed the 4th Chandra at all.
Karn- In matchups where we take a control role, he takes over the game in just a few turns. It crushes troubling matchups like Hardened Scales and Tron, where I played Karn to shut off O. Stone game 2 and they played Thragtusk, which is usually trouble for us. In this case I was able to grab a Bridge and it won me a game I normally would've lost. There's no doubt in my mind, he's a staple. The question is, how many? 3 has felt good so far.
Blast Zone- jury is still out as a 2-of, but it's definitely a 1-of. Things I've killed with it: Search for Azcanta, Detention Sphere, double Death's Shadow, Auriok Champion, and a Teferi with 8 loyalty.. so it's not bad!
Here's a few things to think about as far as the sideboard;
Welding Jar vs Spellskite- while Skite is better in more matchups, you can wish for Jar and play it the same turn, which is big. I won a game vs Jund because of it. It also protects the Lattice combo.
Batterskull- probably the weakest card. While it seems great, you really want it against control, and while I've wished for it a few times, it's lower impact than I hoped.. it might be better off being Hazoret or Stormbreath for the control matchup.
Relic/Crypt?- If you wish for an important 1-of and it gets destroyed, it could be useful to be able to exile your own graveyard.. in the case of Relic, it would give you infinite wish targets. I haven't tried It, but it could be useful.
I'm excited to see what you guys think and come up with in the next couple weeks, as well as my long awaited debut on MTGO with our new toys at my disposal!
Also, I forgot to mention this yesterday, but with GB, Tron, Humans etc.. Magus of the Moon could be decent over the Jaya in the board. Just a thought.
As for Hazoret, have you considered Koth of the Hammer? Many of us run him with 14 Mountains with no problem, and he ends the game pretty quick behind Bridge. I wouldn't worry too much about a discard outlet, we have 34 free cards in the deck (21 land, 9 Rituals and Chalice), we can just throw them away in a pinch.
Interesting choice with Magma Jet.. obviously for the scry, which is great. While 2 damage rather than 3 is not too bad given your expected matchups (a few humans are x/3, but not much else), Abrade is much better against Amulet and Tron.
If you expect to see a number of Humans, 2 Hazoret in the main is risky. I always side Hazoret out against Humans because of Phantasmal Image, as it's hard to beat a Haz on the wrong side of the field. It's going to be tough to side out all the dead cards in this matchup with so many creatures in the main, you'll probably just have to risk it.
Cutting Uba Mask could free up a spot in the side for another control card that's good in creature matchups, as you don't expect to see Control, and packing 7-8 Rabble should help that matchup anyway.. I might consider another Anger. It gives you 1 more card to bring in for a dead creature.
Lastly, Mutavault vs Scavenger Grounds.. the 2 decks you expect to see the most of are graveyard based.. that might be a good switch as well.
Good luck and be sure to let us know how you do!
Mr. Olive's stream was no different. If you're interested in learning how to effectively pilot Pyro Prison, this will not be the video for you. Any one of us can point out dozens of obvious misplays, which many of us discussed at length yesterday (we won't go into those, because it would take until page 200). It doesn't take a Prison expert to see that he did not play well.
A well versed Prison player can tell you that from lines of play, to sideboarding strategy, to deck construction, it was fundamentally flawed. However it doesn't take obvious misplays to lose games with this deck, just little tiny ones. The perception that we win for free is not an accurate one. Sure, sometimes we play a turn 1 Moon and just win, but every deck has it's nut draws, and I'm certain nobody here has went 5-0 on MTGO or spiked a tournament by Mooning people out every game. Like Raystack said, "it's better to be lucky than good", but with this deck, you need to be both to win consistantly. That's the difference between 5-0 and 3-2.. between day 1 and day 2.
I want to give you an example of what I'm talking about. Last night I played a match against Merfolk. It was game 3, and I was at 2 life with Damping Matrix, Bridge, Koth with 5 counters, 6 Mountains, a Caverns, and a Bridge in my hand. My opponent has 2 Mutavault and a 1/1 Biomancer that just came into play. Hes played 3 Repeal and a Hurkyl's Recall so far, which are exiled. I draw a Spyglass and get a Koth emblem. What is the correct play here? There are 3 lines here that get us there most of the time. I chose to play Spyglass naming Mutavault. It gets Spell Pierced.. I have 5 mana, and I decide to pay for it to shut down the Vaults, but... he has another Pierce. At this point I could've just said ok and played Bridge, but I decided to pay the 2 and ping the 1/1. I do so and he reveals Dismember and a Lord. I'm in good shape and I should win from here.. but he draws his 4th Repeal. He bounces Spyglass and swings with the Vaults.
After the match, my opponent told me he had 1 more Recall along with the 4th Repeal. The line I took gave him 2 outs. If I would've emptied my hand, Repeal would've allowed him to bounce Matrix, swing with Biomancer and Adapt for the win. If I played nothing, he needed Repeal, Lord, Lord. So, did I get unlucky? Sure. I win that game 90% of the time with the line I took. It's easy to say I got unlucky. But the truth is, I gave the game away, and it probably wouldn't have appeared so on stream.
We as a community know what this deck is all about, and we actually love the hate. The salt is the best part! We all hope we continue to be written off as a "meme". We welcome Seth or anyone else to showcase "FreeWinPunt" anytime they want! It just makes the salt even saltier when we win. If you're just starting out on the deck, keep your lines and decisions tight and you'll be rewarded. Take the naysayers' opinions with a grain of SALT.
Stay lucky AND good out there, Mountainfolk!
That looks interesting, unfortunately it's not modern legal.