The acceleration in standard is quite impressive, I could see kozi being easy to cast w/ G/x ramp but I doubt Emrakul will hit the field outside of polymorph.
Interesting that this is already a deck up on the top of the page here.... Here is my list that I made (was going to make a thread but this is already here so....)
Conundrum sphinx and malakir can be protected fairly quickly in a deck like this w/ Mana leak and duress/negate in the sb plus they have some interesting abilities which make them moderate finishers. Kozi pkg is in testing obviously and the all is dust should prove to be a great DoJ replacement (Maybe even better w/ this decks non-reliance on permanents). I need to do some heavy testing but I think this deck has potential.
And with Ponder to take care of the early game, Jace to take care of the midgame, and Mind Spring to draw at the end of the game, blue has no trouble drawing.
Ponder is not a good card in standard. It sees a marginal amount of play and even then I would argue that it was a bad choice. Mind spring is a .50 cent common for a reason and that's because outside of ramp play it sucks. Once again jace is the only card doing anything
You guys even get Sea Gate Oracle and Divination, which are fine cards by themselves. So there's no super powerful instant speed spell. Big deal.
Fine for casual play, yeah. I would even suggest SGO can have a home in some deck. But when Divination is the Best card draw we have (it was before wwk) then something is wrong. You might as well timewalk yourself for +1 CA which isn't something I want to do.
And I don't know if you remember, but it wasn't too long ago that blue was by far the most powerful color in standard. Faeries was unstoppable.
Faeries were IMBA, they should have never made it past the ffl. having your win cons be your time walk, counter, soft counter/pump + a 1 card engine and the most powerful counter in a long time will make a deck imba. In any color combo.
Cryptic Command is one of the best counterspells of recent times.
Cryptic command is imba as well. While the restrictive cost should have made it restricted to heavy blue decks the mana base and absurd power level that was Lorwyn standard gave it a boost you can't deny. Heck BBE decks were running it
Wizards is. They have repeatedly stated that they don't like permission control, draw go and most of blues gameplan because it isn't interactive. I'm sorry to say this but a lot of people prefer blue based control to any other playstyle because it makes you think more, A lot of people note it as harder to play and just like good starcraft you have to ride a fine line between getting a better position on the board and staying alive.
Sure, mono blue isn't really a good standard deck right now. But mono green and to some extent, mono black and mono white aren't all that great these days anyway.
Most people aren't arguing for mono blue to be powerful, I (and we) understand that to not be complacent you have to use multiple colors. That being said Mono White and mono black see fair play and the the reason why they aren't seeing more is/was the tyrant known as jund. Mono green lacks removal to be really powerful be even so it has some really good stuff. You conveniently left out Mono Red because it is a top tier deck. All these decks have been seen and are at least FNM worthy where I would argue Blue simply isn't.
Maybe green players should start complaining that mono green has never been viable outside of tribal. Then we can get some ridiculously powerful planeswalkers and some huge creatures with troll shroud and regeneration. Then blue players would really have something to complain about.
Maybe they should! If green isn't up to par with other colors then someone should say something. Especially if you are a green mage. I enjoy playing green casually and sometimes competitively, I think the color has a lot of advantage with it's big dudes and CA capabilities. While on this subject white was absolutely horrible in the TSP standard and people did complain, Eventually white was buffed and now is the most dominant color in the game.
I think what you aren't understanding is that most people don't want blue to be OP like faeries but want it to be competent. Every color has a mono deck it can do and quite a few multi colors it can do. Blue is naturally powerful so it is going to be the hardest to balance (CA and counters) but when they do balance blue with the other colors you have a fantastic format (RAV, TSP recently).
Yea i see what your saying, The last FNM was also my first night with the new version of the deck (the creatures). I have three versions built...
1- creature based esper control
2- Removal based (spot and mass)
3- Counter based
The creature based so far is my favorite, i reall really just need them damned jaces, i might try something like mind shatter or IC, i like that.
After reviewing my list and trying to fit in 2x identity crisis, im not sure what to cut, Perhaps,
-1 SOJI
-1 SGO
+2 Identity crisis
Knowing i have an IC in hand will allow me to use one more esper charm to draw with and not discard them.
Or ar should i move 1x oblivion ring to the sideboard and keep the soji.
I would say it depends on how easy you find killing your opponent is. If you don't really have any trouble killing him take out the soji, if you feel your PtE can handle most of the opponents stuff then take out a O-ring. I would also consider adding 3-4x duress either main or sb.
I dont know if i need help or not, I cant figure out if im losing due to not having jace 2.0 or if im losing because something is wrong with the deck (aside from not having jace2 :D)
Heres the list im currently running and have been running since esper was introduced (tweaked with new cards as they come out obviously) I wont list the land base because it works perfect for the deck and does not need revision, it includes manlands as wincons.
I lost to a singleton malakir bloodwitch in a MBC deck after i got hit with a third attempt mind sludge.
I lost to jund using siege gang and consuming vapors.
i know i need to find some jace2.0's, anyone notice any other fixes i could make?
The problem is that you aren't doing anything unfair. All your plans are marginal and don't really compare to most of the other decks out there. Jace 2 is nice and Stuff like ID crisis, mind spring, mind shatter etc will make your plays increase in power. When you can win the game with 1 turn worth of plays things become a lot easier. I notice that all your creatures cantrip and I like that play. I will have to test that out. I would also consider using Duress to go along with your sculler. You could possibly change the build to be more of a midrange deck by adding in Malakir bloodwitch and BSA. With the package you have right now you are creating a strong opening but again not punishing opponent with a game winner afterwords (Think of mind sludge in MBC).
I am heavy on swamps because I'm trying out 4x Duress MB. I haven't been able to test my current list extensively because of my current schedule but here is the list.
I wasn't really too disappointed with conley's list because he and his team are probably afraid to play counters. To be honest counters are a very hard thing to play correctly and if played incorrectly at all you will probably lose. So while I was disappointed that their wasn't a single counter in the main of Conley's deck I'm not really mad.
INS: Your list is interesting... I don't really see why you wouldn't run Jace2 (yes I know you tap out on ur turn) because he is extremely powerful, You don't have to play everything at instant speed and I think it is the mark of a good player to know when you should/shouldn't play something on ur turn. Not playing sorcery speed spells lowers the overall power of your deck and will affect your win %'s. That being said you are on a track that I want to follow inherently.
Running counters that cost more than what you are countering is kind of interesting.... I would advise putting gather specimens in SB for the MU's that use OP creatures like ur thinking. 6 mana that doesn't assure you victory is on the edge for me, I don't really have a problem with 6 mana counters as long as they do something like draining whelk (kills your opponents).
8 Counters and 4 duress make landing PW's a tough ordeal. add in esper charm and my own PW package and the control MU should be a pushover, Wall of omens is good enough to see play even with Control so prominent, it makes your various aggro MU easier plus cantrips (love it) and with that BSA should be easier to stick and protect (as long as you play it right). CtM is cool and all but doesn't have the safety padding that DoJ adds (aside from manlands). I wanted to add in 2x Tec edge but I'm not sure how the mana base is going to hold up for now. My SB is heavy Jund and RDW while filling in the weak spots in the U/W MU. Essence scatter was manditory MB when jund was 40% of the meta, now it's a great SB option.
Calcite snapper should see more testing with Control popping up more. Because tapout and PW control don't really run counters it only dies to DoJ and if you land him you should prot him.... I can't tell you how many times I have killed Control opponents with snapper (he's that good). If you don't have the BSA's or w/e he would be a suitable replacement IMHO.
I personally don't like Liliana, She just doesn't do enough in an acceptable amount of time. elspeth does a lot for me though, she adds pressure to control, blocks aggro and provides a dominating presence that the opponent has to spend resources to get rid of. Gideon is the same cost as BSA but doesn't have BSA's retardedness factor. I think he is good but needs the right build and IDC to make that build.
U/W and PW
+2 Malakir Bloodwitch
+2 Negate
-4 Wall of omens
I have come to respect essence scatter a lot. It depends on if you use it correctly but because of the ammount of Cip abilities and stuff like that it really helps the MU's. The most suprising one is probably RDW, Cancel is flat out too slow and Essence scatter fills that spot nicely.
I don't know how much RDW has changed really, I can imagine DoJ being semi useful now but before it was the first card to go.
Against most control MU's siding in Malakir is a good idea. Because of esper charm and counters we should have the advantage when we control the board but we also can finish quickly.
So what do you guys like better for this type of build, see beyond or treasure hunt or divination? I'm not sure if I like the 2 drop draw cards more or less since they can be cascaded into. With divination you know that ardent plea will always cascade into a land denial card, which is nice, but cascading into a draw card (while still possibly cascading into a land denial card, as there are 12 of them) is also nice. What do you guys think, which one is better for card advantage assuming 4 ardent plea and also the same question but NO ardent plea?
Also, wall of omens or calcite snapper? Is shroud/possible attack better than card advantage (does this deck even need more card advantage)?
Also, should esper charm be MB or SB? How helpful have you guys found it or better SB? I know a lot of people are going to say esper charm is what makes this build possible, but a couple of people have posted builds with esper charm sb and I don't really play esper (but I want to!) which is why I am asking you guys so yeah...
Also, I thought this kind of build wanted lots more cascade, so wouldn't things like deny reality and other cards be good (unless of course it is bad to have a 5cc cascade which can go into DoJ, but idk if that makes the card bad, opinion)? Or cards that generate CA like brainbite?
Also also, is it just me, or does CtM not seem that great, even though it is an instant because, honestly, how many times do you have 5 mana open? surely at that point you can do something else with 5 mana? Or am I looking at this the wrong way?
Not even sure where to begin. I haven't read the forums in a while so I figure I'll respond to this rq.
Esper charm is 4x main deck. This deck doesn't run any cascade, it runs counters and CA. See beyond is a good card but won't replace esper charm. Wall of omens should be an auto 4 of, Calcite snapper can be flat out amazing so it should be tested. NO cascade. If brainbite was instant I would advocate testing but it doesn't affect board position and it's sorcery. CtM is good against heavy aggro fields but against Jund/UW/PW meta it is bad.
I haven't been playing too much lately because of moving but I built esper when WWK came out and their was a large enouph card pool, now that RoE is out there is even more.
Because the meta I was in was heavy aggro the deck was built to handle aggro with some cards really shining vs control (Snapper). now that metas are shifting and U/W based control is really powerful I am going to remove the smothers and essence scatters and some other stuff and go for a more anti controllish build.
this archtype has been viable since january but we will see if it is ever going to be good enouph.
Malakir bloodwitch and deathmark are great sb cards while Esper charm and smother are great main deck. If there was a 3-4cc draw 2-3 cards that was instant speed I would consider dropping black. Because esper charm is the next best thing I am content with playing esper, in fact I have had amazing success with esper. Granted I haven't played post RoE so I don't know what changes I'll have to make now.
Because of Esper charm specifically we can play a slower draw go game. The reason why tap out has worked better for u/w than counter magic is because u/w can't punish people for NOT playing something while esper can. the addition of black adds a lot of sideboard utility as well as main board removal etc. cancels become significantly more valuable when you have an esper charm in your hand and you aren't time walking yourself to play cancel. If there was a mono blue instant card draw for <5 I would consider dropping black, but because there isn't I want to play esper.
I'm not trying to make this into a battle between well if they play X I'll play Y
The interesting thing is that you kind of can make that argument when you play cards that have the same text. running Cancel and deprive and essence scatter (to a lesser extent) they all read the same thing, Counter target spell (creature for essence). if you run 8 counters that means that 1 in every 7.5 cards is the same card. If you run 7 Single target removal then 1 in every 8.5ish cards is the same card, so you really can say that If opponent plays X spell that has > than Y spells I will always counter/kill it. This leads to consistency that other decks don't have.
Depending on the decks you are playing you need to be pro-active. green based decks you need to look at Slowing them down but more or less waiting for the fatties. If you don't keep a counter ready you will loose. Polymorph decks can go off quickly, so you need to keep them dry on targets and the negate/cancel up. if you aren't playing with counters than you will have a tough time because your trying to specialize in endgame and you won't beat eldrazi. don't be afraid to DoJ but make sure you can do it again when the next one comes. in addition you should kill them quickly, if your meta is control, polymorph, etc you should strongly consider calcite snapper.
the problem with glenn beck is that he does spew propaganda. I agree with a lot of things he says but because he tries to push fear and get people thinking with crazy statements about capitalism he loses a lot of respect from people.
The reason why he is so famous now compared to when he was a talk show host in the past is because the government is taking radical turns (bush and obama). He shows time lines, information boards and line graphs dictating how we are getting closer to communism and socialism but is excessive about it.
I wouldn't necessarily say your deck is bad or anything like that but quite simply... You can't rely on a plan that has to go perfectly in order to lock and still isn't a full lock. you could very well play to have that pseudo lock in your deck but I wouldn't use it as the main plan.
3x Malakir bloodwitch
1x Kozilek, butcher of truths
3x Jace, the mind sculptor
3x Jace's ingenuity
4x Everflowing chalice
2x Consume the meek
2x all is dust
3x Smother
2x Consuming vapors
3x Cancel
4x Drowned catacomb
4x Creeping tar pit
2x Eye of ugin
4x Eldrazi temple
2x Misty rainforest
1x Marsh flats
5x Island
4x Swamp
4x Duress
4x Negate
3x Flashfreeze
3x Deathmark
1x Consuming vapors
Conundrum sphinx and malakir can be protected fairly quickly in a deck like this w/ Mana leak and duress/negate in the sb plus they have some interesting abilities which make them moderate finishers. Kozi pkg is in testing obviously and the all is dust should prove to be a great DoJ replacement (Maybe even better w/ this decks non-reliance on permanents). I need to do some heavy testing but I think this deck has potential.
The only reason why this is true is because Jace tms. The second valid point is that blue card drawing has gotten the shaft for a long time now.
Ponder is not a good card in standard. It sees a marginal amount of play and even then I would argue that it was a bad choice. Mind spring is a .50 cent common for a reason and that's because outside of ramp play it sucks. Once again jace is the only card doing anything
Fine for casual play, yeah. I would even suggest SGO can have a home in some deck. But when Divination is the Best card draw we have (it was before wwk) then something is wrong. You might as well timewalk yourself for +1 CA which isn't something I want to do.
Faeries were IMBA, they should have never made it past the ffl. having your win cons be your time walk, counter, soft counter/pump + a 1 card engine and the most powerful counter in a long time will make a deck imba. In any color combo.
Cryptic command is imba as well. While the restrictive cost should have made it restricted to heavy blue decks the mana base and absurd power level that was Lorwyn standard gave it a boost you can't deny. Heck BBE decks were running it
Wizards is. They have repeatedly stated that they don't like permission control, draw go and most of blues gameplan because it isn't interactive. I'm sorry to say this but a lot of people prefer blue based control to any other playstyle because it makes you think more, A lot of people note it as harder to play and just like good starcraft you have to ride a fine line between getting a better position on the board and staying alive.
Most people aren't arguing for mono blue to be powerful, I (and we) understand that to not be complacent you have to use multiple colors. That being said Mono White and mono black see fair play and the the reason why they aren't seeing more is/was the tyrant known as jund. Mono green lacks removal to be really powerful be even so it has some really good stuff. You conveniently left out Mono Red because it is a top tier deck. All these decks have been seen and are at least FNM worthy where I would argue Blue simply isn't.
Maybe they should! If green isn't up to par with other colors then someone should say something. Especially if you are a green mage. I enjoy playing green casually and sometimes competitively, I think the color has a lot of advantage with it's big dudes and CA capabilities. While on this subject white was absolutely horrible in the TSP standard and people did complain, Eventually white was buffed and now is the most dominant color in the game.
I think what you aren't understanding is that most people don't want blue to be OP like faeries but want it to be competent. Every color has a mono deck it can do and quite a few multi colors it can do. Blue is naturally powerful so it is going to be the hardest to balance (CA and counters) but when they do balance blue with the other colors you have a fantastic format (RAV, TSP recently).
I would say it depends on how easy you find killing your opponent is. If you don't really have any trouble killing him take out the soji, if you feel your PtE can handle most of the opponents stuff then take out a O-ring. I would also consider adding 3-4x duress either main or sb.
The problem is that you aren't doing anything unfair. All your plans are marginal and don't really compare to most of the other decks out there. Jace 2 is nice and Stuff like ID crisis, mind spring, mind shatter etc will make your plays increase in power. When you can win the game with 1 turn worth of plays things become a lot easier. I notice that all your creatures cantrip and I like that play. I will have to test that out. I would also consider using Duress to go along with your sculler. You could possibly change the build to be more of a midrange deck by adding in Malakir bloodwitch and BSA. With the package you have right now you are creating a strong opening but again not punishing opponent with a game winner afterwords (Think of mind sludge in MBC).
I am heavy on swamps because I'm trying out 4x Duress MB. I haven't been able to test my current list extensively because of my current schedule but here is the list.
4x Wall of omens
3x Jace the mind sculptor
2x Elspeth, knight-errant
4x Duress
4x Esper charm
4x Path to exile
3x Day of judgment
4x Cancel
2x Negate
2x Deprive
2x Negate
4x Essence scatter
3x Flashfreeze
2x Celestial purge
2x Deathmark
2x Malakir bloodwitch
My SB should probably change to -2x Essence scatter +2 Celestial purge but Scatter is really powerful against a lot of problem decks.
INS: Your list is interesting... I don't really see why you wouldn't run Jace2 (yes I know you tap out on ur turn) because he is extremely powerful, You don't have to play everything at instant speed and I think it is the mark of a good player to know when you should/shouldn't play something on ur turn. Not playing sorcery speed spells lowers the overall power of your deck and will affect your win %'s. That being said you are on a track that I want to follow inherently.
Running counters that cost more than what you are countering is kind of interesting.... I would advise putting gather specimens in SB for the MU's that use OP creatures like ur thinking. 6 mana that doesn't assure you victory is on the edge for me, I don't really have a problem with 6 mana counters as long as they do something like draining whelk (kills your opponents).
2x Deprive
2x Negate
4x Esper charm
4x Duress
2x Elspeth, knight-errant
3x Jace, the mind sculptor
4x Wall of omens
3x Baneslayer angel
4x Path to exile
3x Day of judgment
4x Arcane sanctum
3x Island
3x Swamp
3x Plains
4x Marsh flats
3x Glacial fortress
2x Drowned catacomb
2x Celestial colonnade
1x Creeping tar pit
3x Flash freeze
2x Celestial purge
2x Deathmark
2x Malakir bloodwitch
2x Negate
4x Essence scatter
8 Counters and 4 duress make landing PW's a tough ordeal. add in esper charm and my own PW package and the control MU should be a pushover, Wall of omens is good enough to see play even with Control so prominent, it makes your various aggro MU easier plus cantrips (love it) and with that BSA should be easier to stick and protect (as long as you play it right). CtM is cool and all but doesn't have the safety padding that DoJ adds (aside from manlands). I wanted to add in 2x Tec edge but I'm not sure how the mana base is going to hold up for now. My SB is heavy Jund and RDW while filling in the weak spots in the U/W MU. Essence scatter was manditory MB when jund was 40% of the meta, now it's a great SB option.
Calcite snapper should see more testing with Control popping up more. Because tapout and PW control don't really run counters it only dies to DoJ and if you land him you should prot him.... I can't tell you how many times I have killed Control opponents with snapper (he's that good). If you don't have the BSA's or w/e he would be a suitable replacement IMHO.
I personally don't like Liliana, She just doesn't do enough in an acceptable amount of time. elspeth does a lot for me though, she adds pressure to control, blocks aggro and provides a dominating presence that the opponent has to spend resources to get rid of. Gideon is the same cost as BSA but doesn't have BSA's retardedness factor. I think he is good but needs the right build and IDC to make that build.
U/W and PW
+2 Malakir Bloodwitch
+2 Negate
-4 Wall of omens
Jund
+4 Essence scatter
+2 Celestial purge
+2 Deathmark
+3 Flashfreeze
-4 Duress
-2 Negate
-2 Deprive
-2 Cancel
-1 Esper charm
RDW
+4 Essence scatter
+2 Celestial purge
+3 Flashfreeze
-2 Deprive
-4 Cancel
-2 Negate
-1 Duress
Vamps
+4 Essence scatter
+2 Celestial purge
-4 Duress (not sure if correct)
I have come to respect essence scatter a lot. It depends on if you use it correctly but because of the ammount of Cip abilities and stuff like that it really helps the MU's. The most suprising one is probably RDW, Cancel is flat out too slow and Essence scatter fills that spot nicely.
I don't know how much RDW has changed really, I can imagine DoJ being semi useful now but before it was the first card to go.
Against most control MU's siding in Malakir is a good idea. Because of esper charm and counters we should have the advantage when we control the board but we also can finish quickly.
Not even sure where to begin. I haven't read the forums in a while so I figure I'll respond to this rq.
Esper charm is 4x main deck. This deck doesn't run any cascade, it runs counters and CA. See beyond is a good card but won't replace esper charm. Wall of omens should be an auto 4 of, Calcite snapper can be flat out amazing so it should be tested. NO cascade. If brainbite was instant I would advocate testing but it doesn't affect board position and it's sorcery. CtM is good against heavy aggro fields but against Jund/UW/PW meta it is bad.
3x Glacial fortress
2x Drowned catacombs
2x Celestial colonnade
1x Creeping tar pit
3x Marsh flats
2x Tectonic edge
4x Island
3x Plains
2x Swamps
3x Sphinx of jwar isle
4x Esper charm
3x Jace, the mind sculptor
4x Cancel
3x Essence scatter
2x Negate
4x Path to exile
3x Smother
3x Day of judgment
1x Oblivion ring
3x Flashfreeze
2x Celestial Purge
2x Deathmark
2x Negate
2x Malakir bloodwitch
2x Luminarch ascension
2x Duress
Because the meta I was in was heavy aggro the deck was built to handle aggro with some cards really shining vs control (Snapper). now that metas are shifting and U/W based control is really powerful I am going to remove the smothers and essence scatters and some other stuff and go for a more anti controllish build.
this archtype has been viable since january but we will see if it is ever going to be good enouph.
Malakir bloodwitch and deathmark are great sb cards while Esper charm and smother are great main deck. If there was a 3-4cc draw 2-3 cards that was instant speed I would consider dropping black. Because esper charm is the next best thing I am content with playing esper, in fact I have had amazing success with esper. Granted I haven't played post RoE so I don't know what changes I'll have to make now.
The interesting thing is that you kind of can make that argument when you play cards that have the same text. running Cancel and deprive and essence scatter (to a lesser extent) they all read the same thing, Counter target spell (creature for essence). if you run 8 counters that means that 1 in every 7.5 cards is the same card. If you run 7 Single target removal then 1 in every 8.5ish cards is the same card, so you really can say that If opponent plays X spell that has > than Y spells I will always counter/kill it. This leads to consistency that other decks don't have.
The reason why he is so famous now compared to when he was a talk show host in the past is because the government is taking radical turns (bush and obama). He shows time lines, information boards and line graphs dictating how we are getting closer to communism and socialism but is excessive about it.