Similar alternatives could be a sideboard Blessed Alliance instead of Helix for match ups like Bogles or Geists and is also another hard removal vs Eldrazi and Shadow. Mindbreak Trap is also an alternative to Counterflux in a Storm heavy meta.
I'm tempted to get back into Mclaren style Jeskai draw-go myself. Looks like it's the place to be for control at the moment.
Your list looks good. I think playing excess spot removal defeats the purpose of playing 2+ sweepers. I think you could cut 1 Helix or cut 1 sweeper. If you would add a counter, a single Spell Snare or Negate could be ok. Or you could add a V.Clique like in Mclaren's winning list or a T.Gearhulk like Mitas did.
Last 3 matches where against Death's Shadow Grixis -
1. Lost 2-1 - Last game was super tight and came down to topdecks. He topped a Stubs for my flashbacked teachings and then he topped an Angler and I topped 2 lands and that's all she wrote.
2. Lost 2-0 - Game 1 took a 1 lander with draw spells and removal. Missed a couple land drops and held on pretty well but eventually lost. Game 2 took a 6 lander with a draw spell since I didn't want to get screwed again. Ended up topping 4-5 lands while my opponent had double Death's Shadow in play. Awkward match.
3. Won 2-1 - Felt like I was comfortable but uncomfortable at the same time. Probably could of took this 2-0 if my opponent didn't draw his outs in game 2.
I feel the scariest play Grixis Shadow can make is an early Delve threat backed by Stubborn Denial. Just being out-tempo'd hard with lack of Path/Snaps in hand, otherwise I feel they gas out when you stabilise. Feels like a swingy match up.
I didn't sideboard anything. Don't know if I should bring in some grave hate? Either pinpoint extraction effects or hard yard hosers like Ravenous Trap? Not sure. Thinking Consume the Meek could be cut for this but CtM flashbacked with Gearhulk did wipe out a Death's Shadow which was nice.
EDIT: Tom, you're cutting K-Command from your recent list? That cards insane in Modern, what's your reasoning?
DOUBLE EDIT: I see Travis has cut his previous utility slot of 1 Mystical Teachings for 1 Gifts Ungiven. What'ss he tutors for? [Snap, Tas, Souls, K-Command]?
Does anyone here have any real experience playing 4C Control within the last six months? I'm curious why most of the decks I've seen leave Esper Charm on the bench.
I have been exclusively on 4c the last 6 months. Started out as a typical Jeskai draw go list + Esper Charm and Cruel but slowly transitioned into an all out draw go deck utilising Mystical Teachings. Esper Charm was my last cut for the deck. I've been playing Charm my whole control "career" but finally cut it. I actually prefer Ancestral Vision to Charm. Look at how Grixis, UW and Jeskai have been switching between T1 to T3 while Esper has firmly been sitting in T3 constantly. It's not like AV is worse a draw spell than Esper Charm. My reasons for lack of Esper Charm in 4c:
1. Power level - I believe Esper Charm to be weak on power level in this format. I used to think Charm was the best ever, but after playing Mystical Teachings, I realised how unnecessary Charm really is. Mind Rot (in a non-8 rack deck) and random draw 2 is just not what I want to be paying an awkward UWB for, especially in 4c. Charm has nice options, but I think I can do better tbh.
2. Efficiency - Enter Think Twice I tested a lot with a draw package of 4 Charm/2 Teachings + Rev, Snaps, Remands, Cryptics but with no Think Twice or Serum Visions. What I found was very noticeable consistency issues. So many games I'd fail to see my 3rd land drop and have an Esper Charm in hand that I was also a colour off from hitting. I thought Remand would be good enough for cheap draw but had issues with it not being "proactive" enough and smart opponents realising this and passing their turn instead of playing into my Remand. I then added 3 Think Twice and soon after the 4th copy and my consistency was rock solid ever since. Even playing against UW control, just one spreading seas can screw over a B source rendering Charm useless. Think Twice on the other hand completely dominated this match up and plays better in the mana efficiency department. For example on turn 3 instead of Esper Charm you can Think Twice + Bolt and the choose to flashback later. Think Twice draws the exact same cards as Esper Charm but is more efficient.
3. Card advantage - I've found that 4 Think Twice + 3 Mystical Teachings was the optimal set up for me. People say Mystical Teachings is slow so they don't play it. I think Esper Charm is just as slow and given the choice between the 2 cards, Mystical Teachings is just so much more powerful. I forget the old article that the writer stated that "card selection" is more important than "card advantage" in Modern and at first I didn't believe this. But after playing with cards like Serum VIsions and Mystical Teachings and losing too many games because I drew "random" cards off my marquee draw spells like Esper Charm, I believe selection is in a much better place. Card adv is still important too, that's why it's important to have stuff like Sphinx Rev and Think Twice, but you don't need to throw excess draw like Esper Charm in the deck. You have enough bulk draw. More selection and more answers are where it's at for mine.
4. Land flood - Mystical Teachings mitigated land flood issues very well. Main issue with high land counts is flooding. Having too many bulk draw spells like Charm and Rev doesn't fix this issue because a lot of the time you just X lands off it and blame flood. This is a lot of dead cards to have in a fast format and can leave you behind at key moments. Teachings doesn't cause this flooding issue. You get to draw you answer ASAP and then flash it back later to grab another teachings and take over from there or just continue tutoring the right answers. High land counts play well with teachings since you are naturally hitting your land drops, so you can spend more time answering threats instead of spending time "drawing into land drops" which defeats the purpose of playing high land counts in the first place. A playset of Serum Visions or Think Twice is good enough to just hit your lands on time.
5. The Blood Moon debate - Blood Moon is fine, well besides a turn 1-2 Moon, which generally wrecks even 2-3 colour decks, Moon is very manageable without Esper Charm. Firstly, Esper Charm is a poor answer to Moon. It IS an answer, but is very clunky due to it's mana cost. Charm isn't going to stop a turn 1-2 Moon and only a turn 3 Moon if you are on the play and have UWB assembled which can be difficult even with all the mana fixing available. Any later Moons, if you play enough basics, it's a non-issue.
- A funny example I have was I played against a Blue Moon deck the other day and he was forced to Blood Moon with only 1 Island in play which my opponent said is a risky move on his part but had to make that play given the game state. I fetched a plains for Cast Out to exile his Moon and built up enough lands since the game was stalled. I later bounced my Cast Out with Cryptic Command, which then returned Moon to play, screwing over my opponent since he failed to draw enough Islands. Hilarious. My 4c deck was able to handle Blood Moon better than the UR Moon deck -
Playing the correct ratio of basics for your decks spells is good enough under normal circumstances. You still only fetch Island, Swamps, Plains (same as 3 colour) as Moon will fix your R cards. Main board Surgical Extraction and Counterspells can infinitely handle normal moons and Mana Tithe can handle turn 2 Moons and turn 1 moons on the play. Cast Out is a very efficient answer to Moon and enchant hate postboard like Wear is efficient also. While Esper Charm can deal with Moon, it's inefficiency to do so early on when Moon is most threatening holds it back as a "Moon Proof" card and later Blood Moons aren't really an issue when you have enough basics and Cryptics up.
These are the main reasons why I eventually moved away from Esper Charm in 4c.
As for Teachings - this card is great in a meta that is slow. Modern hasn't been that meta, ever. Yes, it's a tutor, but four mana is just too much (I only play 3 Cryptics, and Cryptic is a card that I'd want to have in my hand 100% over Teachings and even I am considering cutting 1 for a cheaper counter - the deck has plenty of CA as it is and 2 is plenty to be able to have it available for Snapcaster later in the game; so perspective...).
Are you really comparing draw 3 with tutor? There's a reason Ancestral Recall is about a billion times better than Demonic Tutor even if DT cost just a B. I've tried to play an Esper Teachings deck a couple years ago when the meta was slower and less powerful than it is now and even then it was too slow. When people are coming to the realization that Cryptic is beginning to be too slow and ineffective in the format (e.g. playing 4 and for people like Soorani and almost myself 3, is too many), what makes you want to be on Teachings (is there ever a time you actually want Teachings in your hand over Cryptic?)?
Yes. Draw 3 for 4-6 mana is weaker than a 4 mana tutor with built in card advantage for a control deck and I heard control decks want to get to the late game. Draw 3 can be 2 lands a dead cryptic or any combination of random cards. Tutor is any single card in your deck. I personally hate variance so it's a no-brainer for me. Also, please don't compare AR here, it affects your credibility rating.
I myself play 2 Cryptics. My curve tops out with 12-13 cards (Cast Out v Cycle) over 2 mana. My curve is in fact much lower than most of the lists I see in this thread. I am very aware of mana efficiency in my deck building.
Cryptic doesn't cure cancer. If it did, you'd be playing 4 of yourself.
I've explained my reasoning for choosing teachings multiple times and various deck building decisions, just read it please. I just cannot be bothered any more since this is literal Ad Nauseam and waste of my time.
As for Teachings - this card is great in a meta that is slow. Modern hasn't been that meta, ever. Yes, it's a tutor, but four mana is just too much (I only play 3 Cryptics, and Cryptic is a card that I'd want to have in my hand 100% over Teachings and even I am considering cutting 1 for a cheaper counter - the deck has plenty of CA as it is and 2 is plenty to be able to have it available for Snapcaster later in the game; so perspective...).
Kodieyost, I completely agree with you, but Teferibrah isnt playing esper draw-go, he's playing 4c teachings. Personally, I think 4c teachings is a much worse deck, but thats his choice to make.
Personally, I would never play esper without a wincon.
AV and SV, and Teferi, teachings, red esper etc have been discussed a LOT in this thread. These discussions feels old.
You do realise that 4c teachings is actually a true draw-go deck, without a single Sorcery. Speed. Spell. Most Esper psuedo "Draw-Go" lists feature about 10-15 Sorcery speed cards. Sounds to me like you're probably better off playing Jund since you need dem high threat value win conditions brah.
kodieyost - This little discussion we are having has turned a bit awkward for me since I'm trying to discuss the validity of Secure the Wastes in CONTROL and you're attempting to compare it with my personal deck's choice of Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir which I don't understand. What makes this even more odd is that you obviously have never tested Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir or Mystical Teachings for that matter and are basing your reasoning purely on theory crafting while I have indeed tested with the card Secure the Wastes and I know what it DOES and DOESN'T do for DRAW-GO CONTROL. Anyway...
In regards to Teferi: there isn't a deck out there I would want Teferi against. Living end can consistently go off t4-t5, so he's moot there. Every other combo deck can go off in response to cast, and for you to have counter mana up also you'd need to wait until turn 7, then hope they don't have a counter too (most U-based combo decks play remand or pact). For Mystical teachings to be valuable, you need to last past turn 5.
Secure the Wastes not doing anything against Living Ends turn 4 goldfish too. Same for every other combo deck that can go off in response too.
A control deck is made to go past turn 5, Teferi, StW or WSZ regardless and I when I do live past turn 5, I want something that can "close" the game out WHILE not leaving me vulnerable to topdecks and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and the Mystical Teachings engine does that by embracing the "control methods" while providing a 3/4 win con. Secure the Wastes doesn't do anything to solidify your lead or protect against topdecks and is just a vanilla win condition. Also, Mystical Teachings can be cast on turn 4 for exactly the answer you need when under the pump. I don't understand why I have to live past turn 5 for it to be effective. Did you the card bro?
Same for ancestral visions. In every iteration of Esper control, games that go longner than turn 5 are pretty much guaranteed wins. So why dilute the mana base for a slow engine? At this point, you're diluting answer density to increase correct answer consistency - which sounds good until you factor in the resource commitment required. For you to have that consistency, you have to tack 3U onto your spell's CMC. That's fine and well if you're searching for an EOT wrath - but what if the spell you needed was an immediate answer? A fatal push or PtE for their EOT Druid combo? You're shafted.
Wrong. Games that go past turn 5 are NOT guaranteed wins, far from it. In fact, one of the most talked about issues about control in modern is the fact that you can just lose to the opponents top deck since you can't close the game out fast enough once stabilised and the answers in modern aren't as good as the questions being asked. I personally disagree with this. You, yourself even said in previous post:
"Read: decks that can win off the top deck don't care how many times you stop their combo, if they get one attempt to stick they will win before you. StW let's us turn EOT t5 into 4 power and put them on a clock."
This contradicts your above statement saying that once we get past turn 5, we win. So why play Secure the Wastes if you just win past turn 5 then? I'm a bit confused here... I think you know deep down that wins are never guaranteed with this deck and are just trying to sound a bit cool by stating this. It's the same reason Secure the Wastes for you, is chosen over White Sun's Zenith. Because you're not confident you can actually CONTROL the game past turn 5 in a DIVERSE format such as modern, because your deck lacks the correct answers and is instead playing weak cards in an already weak deck like Esper Charm or Secure the Wastes which are primarily looked at for thier "aggro" and "tempo" roles, in a long, slow control deck. Doesn't make too much sense if you asked me.
Mana base has nothing to do with this. My own 26 land 4c deck is virtually identical to a 26 land 3c deck with the exception of 2 more shock lands, which is stock for 4c lists and are always balanced out with a couple of mainboard Blessed Alliance or Lightning Helix. 26 lands in 3c is too much redundancy in colour sources, while 26 lands in 4c RESPECTS every single land drop.
LOL at "diluting answer density to increase correct answer consistncy." What does that even mean
Firstly, since this is meant to be about Secure the Wastes, but you keep trying to pick on my personal deck, Secure the Wastes isn't even an answer or is an INFERIOR answer in the first place.
Secondly, Mystical Teachings doesn't REPLACE any answers. It replaces Esper Charm, an inferior draw spell. There is no dilution of answers here, and in fact, I play even more answer than you and I even play more "draw spells" than you at 23 to your 21 (your previous page list.)
Again, your making theory based assumptions about Mystical Teachings and are trying to undermine the card by using poor arguments such as "Too much resource commitment involved." You're ignoring the card in the context of the deck. Does your deck play Sphinx's Revelation for 3? How about Snapcaster Mage > Cryptic Command? Both these plays are exactly the same cost as flashbacked Mystical Teachings and cost even more resources than a teachings cast from hand.
In regards to the Vizier of Remedies as another poor example on your part, I'm play 6 1 mana removal spells (3 bolt, 3 path), just like you mate. Mystical Teachings AS WELL AS Esper Charm are both going to do nothing to help against a turn 3 combo off from company. We both also play 4 Think Twice and no Serum Visions for early game draw/consistency and Esper Charm isn't early and it isn't cheap, it won't hit you your 3rd land drop, just like Mystical Teachings won't either. So on the subject of comparing decks, we both have the exact same chance of stopping them comboing off on turn 3. And if the game goes long if they don't have the nuts, I, at least have the ability to shut down any EOT CoCo/Chords with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir or even a Consume the Meek in response and Mystical Teachings is INFINITELY more powerful than Esper Charm when the game goes long because I can tutor anything. I can tutor any single card. Let that sink in for a moment. It's just silly to suggest an instant speed tutor + card adv in a control deck like Mystical Teachings isn't good enough. You keep on drawing the wrong half of your deck while I keep on drawing the right card at the right time.
EDIT: And for just one second, let's just establish this. Turn 2 bolt, turn 3 snap->bolt, turn 4 bolt + bolt + attack, turn 5 attack + bolt is not lethal. To make it happen, you have to make some assumptions, and if we're doing that then we can also assume there are multiple times that the sequence just WONT get there, and you lose. I.e. Opponent has a 2/3 or bigger goyf on T2, from fetch + tseize. Drawing into a Teferi or a Mystical teachings anywhere in your sequence just ruins your tempo win. Drawing into a StW let's you put bodies on the ground and clog up the board while you find your answer.
Again, your just theory crafting. Here's a previous post of mine on PB kill time:
"On another note. Clocked my PB fastest kill time yesterday with esper teachings splash red deck. On the draw. Turn 5. Opponent 20 life down to -3. Starting hand Hallowed Fountain, Mana Confluence, Snapcaster Mage, Snapcaster Mage, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt. Subsequent draws Steam Vents, Kolaghan's Command, Logic Knot, Island. Turn 5 goldfish, don't think I could do it any faster than that... good to know for when I'm in the party mood :p"
This was a goldfish against a slow draw from my opponent. This is actual testing results. Sure, it doesn't mean too much but it IS good to know so when I compare with cards like Secure the Wastes which are PRIMARILY chosen for it's "tempo aggro" role, I can see that Secure the Wastes is a much SLOWER kill time which means it's inferior in regards of being an "aggro, tempo" card to cheese out the more inevitable decks. This isn't a "What if" scenario. I can do the same "What if" scenario to Secure the Wastes too, it's not hard man and is pointless because every game is DIFFERENT.
Having your answers like Lightning Bolt/Kolaghan's Command being flexible enough to play a "tempo,aggro" role is much, much, much different than dedicating 1-2 slots for an inferior (read: slower kill time) "tempo, aggro" card like Secure the Wastes.
I'm happy to continue this debate if you want to go on but I'd prefer to leave it at this since you haven't actually presented anything new to persuade me and I feel like I'm repeating myself. This is basically going nowhere fast...
In the same notion, your teferi is an expensive dude that will get all removal finally out of their hand. Sure, you can bother countering it, or letting it resolve and casting Kommand, but why turn removal on in the first place? For the same mana, you can spread the power out over multiple bodies and make the deck exceptionally easier to win.
It's apparent you misunderstand Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. My primary win condition isn't Teferi. My primary win condition is Mystical Teachings. Mystical Teachings won't work without Teferi since it's a 10 mana play (CMC + flashaback) in the Modern format. Teferi is Iona, Shield of Emeria on every step barring the opponent's 2 main phases. Mystical Teachings is a win con and answer at the same time and Teferi makes the magic happen. He allows you to safely make plays without getting hit by an Ad Nauseam, a lethal Lightning Bolt or a Spell Pierce. Without Teferi, the teachings engine doesn't work. When I look at Teferi, I'm looking at his second ability.
Secondarily, Teferi also is an answer. Disruption against Control and Combo decks, unlike Secure the Wastes. Teferi is a permanent hard counter to Living End, Ad Nauseam's Pacts and Blooms, Ancestral Vision, permission decks, Madness brews, combat tricks, tempo decks and much, much more. He makes the opponent play on YOUR terms. Into YOUR strengths. He's quite literally the middle finger of a control deck. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Spell Burst = Good luck mate. He actually allows the long game to happen since you'll never get cheesed out by some random instant speed topdeck with him in play. Teferi promotes total control. Secure the Wastes doesn't do any of this.
As for "X" spells. Sphinx's Revelation competes with Secure the Wastes IMO. A Rev for 7 pretty much draws a concession and StW adds unnecessary redundancy in the "X" department.
Heavy removal decks are the least of my problems. Kolaghan's Command/Snapcaster Mage does the job there. And for some reason, if they decide to sandbag in a trolling manner by not playing a single spell since I have minimum win conditions, I can just ignore the board and burn them out with Lightning Bolt and Kolaghan's Command. Abrupt Decay can't stop my Lightning Bolt dealing lethal.
I think it's unnecessary to make my deck, in your words "easier to win." Especially if that means cutting 1-2 of my answers for 1-2 Secure the Wastes, in a non-tokens deck. My deck list is extremely tight and on curve exactly too my liking. Once the Mystical Teachings loop gets going, it's only a matter of time against every deck out there since I have a literal answer to everything in my mainboard. There's no need to add token generators for the sake of maybe gaining some free wins. I've already got Snap/Bolt for that which fit in the Card advantage/Answer slots anyway.
I'm very strongly opinionated against Secure the Wastes since I've tested the card myself, as well as mainboard Vendilion Clique and Torrential Gearhulk for the role of "cheese out more inevitable decks if I can't truly control the game because the diversity of the format and all." Those testing sessions with Secure the Wastes made me realise that there is always a way to control any single deck out there, and I don't need to waste deck space trying to achieve "easy wins." Free wins are already built into my deck without needing Secure the Wastes and at no deckbuilding cost so I have no use for the card. I understand that since I play 4 colours, I have much more options/flexibility in deck building decisions so that is why I'm not too big on Secure the Wastes too. I also understand that your deck is a bit more limited since you play 3 colours, so Secure the Wastes can be seen as some sort of Demi-God since you don't have access to a more versatile Twin-like tempo game plan so that may also blur perceptions a bit too.
I'd much rather commit to White Sun's Zenith in Esper since it goes with the whole, long game inevitability aspect of pure draw-go control, whereas you lose out on this by playing a more midrangey card like Secure the Wastes.
I guess I have to agree to disagree as they say on this matter.
I'm not really sure what the plan is against dredge. I've never faced it. I can't imagine it's a good matchup.
My experience has been:
Game 1 very hard to win:
1. Race. Bolts to the face and snap beats using cryptic to tap their team. They can self damage with their shock lands. Tight play and doing the maths with burn spells can get there. A more controlling hand with Path/snap/path can slow the game down a bit but generally trying to win quick is best since they just Dredge grinding us out.
2. Cathartic Reunion is their biggest play for mine. Countering this can slow them down a lot to give you time to plan an attack.
3. Hope they get a bad hand and bad luck. They don't play many lands so it is a possibility they mulligan.
Postboard 50/50 IMO:
1. We can control much better with grave hate but we still need to close the game out or go big with CA like Rev as lots of 1/1's can get the job done for them.
Ye seen like that tectonic edge actually seems like a very reasonable choice TappingStones.
But on the other hand I've actually won two games ghost quarting myself for that extra mountain for the last points of burns.
Man I just did this play last night against a B/R control deck. Had him at 10 life with a snap in play and he tapped out for demigod after shredding my hand with discard. I had 4 lands in play - 2 Fountain, 1 Vents, 1 GQ and a snap and bolt in hand. He hit for 5 with the demigod and I EOT bolt him to 7, then I GQ my tapped Vents and got a Mountain, played a snap flashing back that bolt with the Mountain I got with GQ, and swung for lethal with double snaps next turn. Was hella cool!
I understand it can steal wins and I definitely support that. Having that other end of the spectrum as a slow control deck is pretty important IMO. But the problem with StW is that it truly isn't an answer. Dedicating 1-2 slots just for a win condition is less room for answers. And the Esper deck is the only control deck I know of that is a bona-fide answer deck.
I'd probably look at playing Grixis if you wanted to go "aggro" against more inevitable decks - Lightning BoltCreeping Tar PitSnapcaster MageKolaghan's CommandTasigur, the Golden Fang. All those cards, except for Tasigur, and even Tas has a card draw ability built in, are both a win condition AND an answer at the same time which means Grixis doesn't wasted space on dedicated win conditions.
StW does work in Esper, no doubt about that, it is a powerful card and does win games. But just comparing game plans of Esper with Grixis - Esper being all about reactive answers while Grixis waxing and waning between proactive/reactive, I'd say Grixis just does the "aggro" better and more consistently. Building an aggro plan into Esper draw go is more awkward since lack of reach with no bolts and the entire game plan is to "not lose." Using up 1-2 slots on cards that "just win" instead of being another 1-2 answers, in an already tight deck list, comes at a cost.
Snaps and manlands are good enough to win games that come at no deckbuilding cost. Sure it's gonna be more slow or "durdly," but you WILL get there since the game will be fully under control because that's what we aim to do and do better than any deck in the format. We're not going to be great against everything and that's just how the cookie crumbles. By playing StW, it's "counter-productive" to the control game plan of having answers, it dilutes our main strategy of hard control for the option of "tempoing" out more inevitable decks. Similar to Lightning Bolt in control lists, but at least bolt is an answer and doesn't use up deck building space.
@kodieyost - RE Combo decks that "inevitability" you with topdecks - There are other ways to deal with this besides trying to race with StW, that play to our strengths of total control. As mentioned in some of my previous posts: Extirpate and Surgical Extraction makes sure you won't get YOLO'd out since you just exile the problem cards. That is a controlling way of dealing with the problem instead of resorting to aggro in a control deck. Spell Burst is another that allows you to infinitely counter all topdecks. My previous game against Valakut, I countered 4 topdecks with just 1 Spell Burst and I even have the option to go full on aggro with Snap/Bolt. What I'm trying to say is that we have the cards in the Modern pool to deal with these situations. It may feel harder to attempt to control these situations as opposed to just ending the game faster but if there's any deck in Modern that can deal with this via control methods, it's Esper.
Also, you may have the inevitability against MOST fair decks with just Snaps/Manlands. But I notice a lot of fair decks these days are even more grindier and it's not as simple as guaranteed wins with snaps/manlands. Grixis also employs snaps/manlands but they have Kolaghan's Command on top of this. Do you think your 4 Snaps/ 4 Manlands are more inevitable than Grixis's Infinite Snaps + Manlands?
Eldrazi Tron is a bit of a grind fest, I think I timed out about 10 seconds before my opponent, game 3 last time I played them and I don't consider myself a slow player. I find if they don't kill you with the nuts, then the game can drag on and on. I actually disagree that Esper Charm discard mode is that good against them. They usually find a Sea Gate Wreckage which makes the discard mode super awkward. But if you have a way to get rid of that particular land, then the discard should be a fine play.
I think amelk0 mentioned ages back that Baneslayer can do the rounds against Dredge too. She seems like a solid choice if you have room in the side.
How is Esper's matchup against UW control? I am thinking Esper would be favored. What has been everyone's experience?
I'd say Esper is favoured. TT is brutal and Charm's discard mode is a big threat. Gets even better sideboard with Thoughtseize if you play those. UW can only really hope to catch you without a counter and slam an early planeswalker and Ancestral Vision would be their best way of keeping up in the CA battle but not all UW lists are on AV. They may also cheese you out with Seas/Tec Edge/GQ but tbh, because they lack a clock, it's not too problematic, unlike Merfolk who can capitalise on this form of disruption.
Postboard, the only worrying cards they can bring in for mine would be RIP or Geist, followed by either more walkers or hatebears like Clique/Queller to try and hope to tempo you out since the long game is generally in our favour.
I've had a pretty positive record against UW control with my Teachings list and the last UW player I beat online literally stalled the timer when I had him beat and messaged me saying that he was MAD SALTY because he just got dominated so hard in the long game CA battle. At least he was honest
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rakdos Charm
+ Snaps to flashback
I have room for 1 more piece of gy hate and am thinking of adding 1 Crypt Incursion. Does this card have merit or is it too slow?
Thanks
Similar alternatives could be a sideboard Blessed Alliance instead of Helix for match ups like Bogles or Geists and is also another hard removal vs Eldrazi and Shadow. Mindbreak Trap is also an alternative to Counterflux in a Storm heavy meta.
I'm tempted to get back into Mclaren style Jeskai draw-go myself. Looks like it's the place to be for control at the moment.
Your list looks good. I think playing excess spot removal defeats the purpose of playing 2+ sweepers. I think you could cut 1 Helix or cut 1 sweeper. If you would add a counter, a single Spell Snare or Negate could be ok. Or you could add a V.Clique like in Mclaren's winning list or a T.Gearhulk like Mitas did.
My list:
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creature (4)
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Mana Tithe
3 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Blessed Alliance
4 Think Twice
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Cryptic Command
2 Consume the Meek
2 Logic Knot
1 Sphinx's Revelation
Enchantment (1)
1 Cast Out
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Patrician's Scorn
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Voidmage Husher
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Gather Specimens
1 Commandeer
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Notion Thief
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Wear // Tear
Last 3 matches where against Death's Shadow Grixis -
1. Lost 2-1 - Last game was super tight and came down to topdecks. He topped a Stubs for my flashbacked teachings and then he topped an Angler and I topped 2 lands and that's all she wrote.
2. Lost 2-0 - Game 1 took a 1 lander with draw spells and removal. Missed a couple land drops and held on pretty well but eventually lost. Game 2 took a 6 lander with a draw spell since I didn't want to get screwed again. Ended up topping 4-5 lands while my opponent had double Death's Shadow in play. Awkward match.
3. Won 2-1 - Felt like I was comfortable but uncomfortable at the same time. Probably could of took this 2-0 if my opponent didn't draw his outs in game 2.
I feel the scariest play Grixis Shadow can make is an early Delve threat backed by Stubborn Denial. Just being out-tempo'd hard with lack of Path/Snaps in hand, otherwise I feel they gas out when you stabilise. Feels like a swingy match up.
I didn't sideboard anything. Don't know if I should bring in some grave hate? Either pinpoint extraction effects or hard yard hosers like Ravenous Trap? Not sure. Thinking Consume the Meek could be cut for this but CtM flashbacked with Gearhulk did wipe out a Death's Shadow which was nice.
EDIT: Tom, you're cutting K-Command from your recent list? That cards insane in Modern, what's your reasoning?
DOUBLE EDIT: I see Travis has cut his previous utility slot of 1 Mystical Teachings for 1 Gifts Ungiven. What'ss he tutors for? [Snap, Tas, Souls, K-Command]?
I have been exclusively on 4c the last 6 months. Started out as a typical Jeskai draw go list + Esper Charm and Cruel but slowly transitioned into an all out draw go deck utilising Mystical Teachings. Esper Charm was my last cut for the deck. I've been playing Charm my whole control "career" but finally cut it. I actually prefer Ancestral Vision to Charm. Look at how Grixis, UW and Jeskai have been switching between T1 to T3 while Esper has firmly been sitting in T3 constantly. It's not like AV is worse a draw spell than Esper Charm. My reasons for lack of Esper Charm in 4c:
1. Power level - I believe Esper Charm to be weak on power level in this format. I used to think Charm was the best ever, but after playing Mystical Teachings, I realised how unnecessary Charm really is. Mind Rot (in a non-8 rack deck) and random draw 2 is just not what I want to be paying an awkward UWB for, especially in 4c. Charm has nice options, but I think I can do better tbh.
2. Efficiency - Enter Think Twice I tested a lot with a draw package of 4 Charm/2 Teachings + Rev, Snaps, Remands, Cryptics but with no Think Twice or Serum Visions. What I found was very noticeable consistency issues. So many games I'd fail to see my 3rd land drop and have an Esper Charm in hand that I was also a colour off from hitting. I thought Remand would be good enough for cheap draw but had issues with it not being "proactive" enough and smart opponents realising this and passing their turn instead of playing into my Remand. I then added 3 Think Twice and soon after the 4th copy and my consistency was rock solid ever since. Even playing against UW control, just one spreading seas can screw over a B source rendering Charm useless. Think Twice on the other hand completely dominated this match up and plays better in the mana efficiency department. For example on turn 3 instead of Esper Charm you can Think Twice + Bolt and the choose to flashback later. Think Twice draws the exact same cards as Esper Charm but is more efficient.
3. Card advantage - I've found that 4 Think Twice + 3 Mystical Teachings was the optimal set up for me. People say Mystical Teachings is slow so they don't play it. I think Esper Charm is just as slow and given the choice between the 2 cards, Mystical Teachings is just so much more powerful. I forget the old article that the writer stated that "card selection" is more important than "card advantage" in Modern and at first I didn't believe this. But after playing with cards like Serum VIsions and Mystical Teachings and losing too many games because I drew "random" cards off my marquee draw spells like Esper Charm, I believe selection is in a much better place. Card adv is still important too, that's why it's important to have stuff like Sphinx Rev and Think Twice, but you don't need to throw excess draw like Esper Charm in the deck. You have enough bulk draw. More selection and more answers are where it's at for mine.
4. Land flood - Mystical Teachings mitigated land flood issues very well. Main issue with high land counts is flooding. Having too many bulk draw spells like Charm and Rev doesn't fix this issue because a lot of the time you just X lands off it and blame flood. This is a lot of dead cards to have in a fast format and can leave you behind at key moments. Teachings doesn't cause this flooding issue. You get to draw you answer ASAP and then flash it back later to grab another teachings and take over from there or just continue tutoring the right answers. High land counts play well with teachings since you are naturally hitting your land drops, so you can spend more time answering threats instead of spending time "drawing into land drops" which defeats the purpose of playing high land counts in the first place. A playset of Serum Visions or Think Twice is good enough to just hit your lands on time.
5. The Blood Moon debate - Blood Moon is fine, well besides a turn 1-2 Moon, which generally wrecks even 2-3 colour decks, Moon is very manageable without Esper Charm. Firstly, Esper Charm is a poor answer to Moon. It IS an answer, but is very clunky due to it's mana cost. Charm isn't going to stop a turn 1-2 Moon and only a turn 3 Moon if you are on the play and have UWB assembled which can be difficult even with all the mana fixing available. Any later Moons, if you play enough basics, it's a non-issue.
- A funny example I have was I played against a Blue Moon deck the other day and he was forced to Blood Moon with only 1 Island in play which my opponent said is a risky move on his part but had to make that play given the game state. I fetched a plains for Cast Out to exile his Moon and built up enough lands since the game was stalled. I later bounced my Cast Out with Cryptic Command, which then returned Moon to play, screwing over my opponent since he failed to draw enough Islands. Hilarious. My 4c deck was able to handle Blood Moon better than the UR Moon deck -
Playing the correct ratio of basics for your decks spells is good enough under normal circumstances. You still only fetch Island, Swamps, Plains (same as 3 colour) as Moon will fix your R cards. Main board Surgical Extraction and Counterspells can infinitely handle normal moons and Mana Tithe can handle turn 2 Moons and turn 1 moons on the play. Cast Out is a very efficient answer to Moon and enchant hate postboard like Wear is efficient also. While Esper Charm can deal with Moon, it's inefficiency to do so early on when Moon is most threatening holds it back as a "Moon Proof" card and later Blood Moons aren't really an issue when you have enough basics and Cryptics up.
These are the main reasons why I eventually moved away from Esper Charm in 4c.
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creature (4)
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Mana Tithe
3 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Blessed Alliance
4 Think Twice
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Cryptic Command
2 Consume the Meek
2 Logic Knot
1 Sphinx's Revelation
Enchantment (1)
1 Cast Out
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Patrician's Scorn
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Voidmage Husher
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Gather Specimens
1 Commandeer
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Notion Thief
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Wear // Tear
My list for reference.
Yes. Draw 3 for 4-6 mana is weaker than a 4 mana tutor with built in card advantage for a control deck and I heard control decks want to get to the late game. Draw 3 can be 2 lands a dead cryptic or any combination of random cards. Tutor is any single card in your deck. I personally hate variance so it's a no-brainer for me. Also, please don't compare AR here, it affects your credibility rating.
I myself play 2 Cryptics. My curve tops out with 12-13 cards (Cast Out v Cycle) over 2 mana. My curve is in fact much lower than most of the lists I see in this thread. I am very aware of mana efficiency in my deck building.
Cryptic doesn't cure cancer. If it did, you'd be playing 4 of yourself.
I've explained my reasoning for choosing teachings multiple times and various deck building decisions, just read it please. I just cannot be bothered any more since this is literal Ad Nauseam and waste of my time.
I will show myself out.
How much mana does Scour the Laboratory cost again?
You do realise that 4c teachings is actually a true draw-go deck, without a single Sorcery. Speed. Spell. Most Esper psuedo "Draw-Go" lists feature about 10-15 Sorcery speed cards. Sounds to me like you're probably better off playing Jund since you need dem high threat value win conditions brah.
Secure the Wastes not doing anything against Living Ends turn 4 goldfish too. Same for every other combo deck that can go off in response too.
A control deck is made to go past turn 5, Teferi, StW or WSZ regardless and I when I do live past turn 5, I want something that can "close" the game out WHILE not leaving me vulnerable to topdecks and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and the Mystical Teachings engine does that by embracing the "control methods" while providing a 3/4 win con. Secure the Wastes doesn't do anything to solidify your lead or protect against topdecks and is just a vanilla win condition. Also, Mystical Teachings can be cast on turn 4 for exactly the answer you need when under the pump. I don't understand why I have to live past turn 5 for it to be effective. Did you the card bro?
Wrong. Games that go past turn 5 are NOT guaranteed wins, far from it. In fact, one of the most talked about issues about control in modern is the fact that you can just lose to the opponents top deck since you can't close the game out fast enough once stabilised and the answers in modern aren't as good as the questions being asked. I personally disagree with this. You, yourself even said in previous post:
"Read: decks that can win off the top deck don't care how many times you stop their combo, if they get one attempt to stick they will win before you. StW let's us turn EOT t5 into 4 power and put them on a clock."
This contradicts your above statement saying that once we get past turn 5, we win. So why play Secure the Wastes if you just win past turn 5 then? I'm a bit confused here... I think you know deep down that wins are never guaranteed with this deck and are just trying to sound a bit cool by stating this. It's the same reason Secure the Wastes for you, is chosen over White Sun's Zenith. Because you're not confident you can actually CONTROL the game past turn 5 in a DIVERSE format such as modern, because your deck lacks the correct answers and is instead playing weak cards in an already weak deck like Esper Charm or Secure the Wastes which are primarily looked at for thier "aggro" and "tempo" roles, in a long, slow control deck. Doesn't make too much sense if you asked me.
Mana base has nothing to do with this. My own 26 land 4c deck is virtually identical to a 26 land 3c deck with the exception of 2 more shock lands, which is stock for 4c lists and are always balanced out with a couple of mainboard Blessed Alliance or Lightning Helix. 26 lands in 3c is too much redundancy in colour sources, while 26 lands in 4c RESPECTS every single land drop.
LOL at "diluting answer density to increase correct answer consistncy." What does that even mean
Firstly, since this is meant to be about Secure the Wastes, but you keep trying to pick on my personal deck, Secure the Wastes isn't even an answer or is an INFERIOR answer in the first place.
Secondly, Mystical Teachings doesn't REPLACE any answers. It replaces Esper Charm, an inferior draw spell. There is no dilution of answers here, and in fact, I play even more answer than you and I even play more "draw spells" than you at 23 to your 21 (your previous page list.)
Again, your making theory based assumptions about Mystical Teachings and are trying to undermine the card by using poor arguments such as "Too much resource commitment involved." You're ignoring the card in the context of the deck. Does your deck play Sphinx's Revelation for 3? How about Snapcaster Mage > Cryptic Command? Both these plays are exactly the same cost as flashbacked Mystical Teachings and cost even more resources than a teachings cast from hand.
In regards to the Vizier of Remedies as another poor example on your part, I'm play 6 1 mana removal spells (3 bolt, 3 path), just like you mate. Mystical Teachings AS WELL AS Esper Charm are both going to do nothing to help against a turn 3 combo off from company. We both also play 4 Think Twice and no Serum Visions for early game draw/consistency and Esper Charm isn't early and it isn't cheap, it won't hit you your 3rd land drop, just like Mystical Teachings won't either. So on the subject of comparing decks, we both have the exact same chance of stopping them comboing off on turn 3. And if the game goes long if they don't have the nuts, I, at least have the ability to shut down any EOT CoCo/Chords with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir or even a Consume the Meek in response and Mystical Teachings is INFINITELY more powerful than Esper Charm when the game goes long because I can tutor anything. I can tutor any single card. Let that sink in for a moment. It's just silly to suggest an instant speed tutor + card adv in a control deck like Mystical Teachings isn't good enough. You keep on drawing the wrong half of your deck while I keep on drawing the right card at the right time.
Again, your just theory crafting. Here's a previous post of mine on PB kill time:
"On another note. Clocked my PB fastest kill time yesterday with esper teachings splash red deck. On the draw. Turn 5. Opponent 20 life down to -3. Starting hand Hallowed Fountain, Mana Confluence, Snapcaster Mage, Snapcaster Mage, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt. Subsequent draws Steam Vents, Kolaghan's Command, Logic Knot, Island. Turn 5 goldfish, don't think I could do it any faster than that... good to know for when I'm in the party mood :p"
This was a goldfish against a slow draw from my opponent. This is actual testing results. Sure, it doesn't mean too much but it IS good to know so when I compare with cards like Secure the Wastes which are PRIMARILY chosen for it's "tempo aggro" role, I can see that Secure the Wastes is a much SLOWER kill time which means it's inferior in regards of being an "aggro, tempo" card to cheese out the more inevitable decks. This isn't a "What if" scenario. I can do the same "What if" scenario to Secure the Wastes too, it's not hard man and is pointless because every game is DIFFERENT.
Having your answers like Lightning Bolt/Kolaghan's Command being flexible enough to play a "tempo,aggro" role is much, much, much different than dedicating 1-2 slots for an inferior (read: slower kill time) "tempo, aggro" card like Secure the Wastes.
I'm happy to continue this debate if you want to go on but I'd prefer to leave it at this since you haven't actually presented anything new to persuade me and I feel like I'm repeating myself. This is basically going nowhere fast...
It's apparent you misunderstand Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. My primary win condition isn't Teferi. My primary win condition is Mystical Teachings. Mystical Teachings won't work without Teferi since it's a 10 mana play (CMC + flashaback) in the Modern format. Teferi is Iona, Shield of Emeria on every step barring the opponent's 2 main phases. Mystical Teachings is a win con and answer at the same time and Teferi makes the magic happen. He allows you to safely make plays without getting hit by an Ad Nauseam, a lethal Lightning Bolt or a Spell Pierce. Without Teferi, the teachings engine doesn't work. When I look at Teferi, I'm looking at his second ability.
Secondarily, Teferi also is an answer. Disruption against Control and Combo decks, unlike Secure the Wastes. Teferi is a permanent hard counter to Living End, Ad Nauseam's Pacts and Blooms, Ancestral Vision, permission decks, Madness brews, combat tricks, tempo decks and much, much more. He makes the opponent play on YOUR terms. Into YOUR strengths. He's quite literally the middle finger of a control deck. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Spell Burst = Good luck mate. He actually allows the long game to happen since you'll never get cheesed out by some random instant speed topdeck with him in play. Teferi promotes total control. Secure the Wastes doesn't do any of this.
Can Secure the Wastes kill on turn 5? I know for a fact that Snapcaster Mage Lightning Bolt Kolaghan's Command can. In relation to the context of my deck, Secure the Wastes literally brings nothing to the table and is a much, much slower kill time than what I've already got access too. I've tested Secure the Wastes too so I'm not just saying. I'd much rather prefer to stay leaner and rely on Snapcaster Mage Lightning Bolt Kolaghan's Command Creeping Tar Pit as my answers + win cons that pretty much ignore the board which is attractive against true token decks like BW tokens that chump Secure the Wastes all day long.
As for "X" spells. Sphinx's Revelation competes with Secure the Wastes IMO. A Rev for 7 pretty much draws a concession and StW adds unnecessary redundancy in the "X" department.
Heavy removal decks are the least of my problems. Kolaghan's Command/Snapcaster Mage does the job there. And for some reason, if they decide to sandbag in a trolling manner by not playing a single spell since I have minimum win conditions, I can just ignore the board and burn them out with Lightning Bolt and Kolaghan's Command. Abrupt Decay can't stop my Lightning Bolt dealing lethal.
I think it's unnecessary to make my deck, in your words "easier to win." Especially if that means cutting 1-2 of my answers for 1-2 Secure the Wastes, in a non-tokens deck. My deck list is extremely tight and on curve exactly too my liking. Once the Mystical Teachings loop gets going, it's only a matter of time against every deck out there since I have a literal answer to everything in my mainboard. There's no need to add token generators for the sake of maybe gaining some free wins. I've already got Snap/Bolt for that which fit in the Card advantage/Answer slots anyway.
I'm very strongly opinionated against Secure the Wastes since I've tested the card myself, as well as mainboard Vendilion Clique and Torrential Gearhulk for the role of "cheese out more inevitable decks if I can't truly control the game because the diversity of the format and all." Those testing sessions with Secure the Wastes made me realise that there is always a way to control any single deck out there, and I don't need to waste deck space trying to achieve "easy wins." Free wins are already built into my deck without needing Secure the Wastes and at no deckbuilding cost so I have no use for the card. I understand that since I play 4 colours, I have much more options/flexibility in deck building decisions so that is why I'm not too big on Secure the Wastes too. I also understand that your deck is a bit more limited since you play 3 colours, so Secure the Wastes can be seen as some sort of Demi-God since you don't have access to a more versatile Twin-like tempo game plan so that may also blur perceptions a bit too.
I'd much rather commit to White Sun's Zenith in Esper since it goes with the whole, long game inevitability aspect of pure draw-go control, whereas you lose out on this by playing a more midrangey card like Secure the Wastes.
I guess I have to agree to disagree as they say on this matter.
My experience has been:
Game 1 very hard to win:
1. Race. Bolts to the face and snap beats using cryptic to tap their team. They can self damage with their shock lands. Tight play and doing the maths with burn spells can get there. A more controlling hand with Path/snap/path can slow the game down a bit but generally trying to win quick is best since they just Dredge grinding us out.
2. Cathartic Reunion is their biggest play for mine. Countering this can slow them down a lot to give you time to plan an attack.
3. Hope they get a bad hand and bad luck. They don't play many lands so it is a possibility they mulligan.
Postboard 50/50 IMO:
1. We can control much better with grave hate but we still need to close the game out or go big with CA like Rev as lots of 1/1's can get the job done for them.
Definitely an unfavourable match up.
Man I just did this play last night against a B/R control deck. Had him at 10 life with a snap in play and he tapped out for demigod after shredding my hand with discard. I had 4 lands in play - 2 Fountain, 1 Vents, 1 GQ and a snap and bolt in hand. He hit for 5 with the demigod and I EOT bolt him to 7, then I GQ my tapped Vents and got a Mountain, played a snap flashing back that bolt with the Mountain I got with GQ, and swung for lethal with double snaps next turn. Was hella cool!
Warleader's Helix does seem sweet. Hits Thought-Knot Seer too.
I understand it can steal wins and I definitely support that. Having that other end of the spectrum as a slow control deck is pretty important IMO. But the problem with StW is that it truly isn't an answer. Dedicating 1-2 slots just for a win condition is less room for answers. And the Esper deck is the only control deck I know of that is a bona-fide answer deck.
I'd probably look at playing Grixis if you wanted to go "aggro" against more inevitable decks - Lightning Bolt Creeping Tar Pit Snapcaster Mage Kolaghan's Command Tasigur, the Golden Fang. All those cards, except for Tasigur, and even Tas has a card draw ability built in, are both a win condition AND an answer at the same time which means Grixis doesn't wasted space on dedicated win conditions.
StW does work in Esper, no doubt about that, it is a powerful card and does win games. But just comparing game plans of Esper with Grixis - Esper being all about reactive answers while Grixis waxing and waning between proactive/reactive, I'd say Grixis just does the "aggro" better and more consistently. Building an aggro plan into Esper draw go is more awkward since lack of reach with no bolts and the entire game plan is to "not lose." Using up 1-2 slots on cards that "just win" instead of being another 1-2 answers, in an already tight deck list, comes at a cost.
Snaps and manlands are good enough to win games that come at no deckbuilding cost. Sure it's gonna be more slow or "durdly," but you WILL get there since the game will be fully under control because that's what we aim to do and do better than any deck in the format. We're not going to be great against everything and that's just how the cookie crumbles. By playing StW, it's "counter-productive" to the control game plan of having answers, it dilutes our main strategy of hard control for the option of "tempoing" out more inevitable decks. Similar to Lightning Bolt in control lists, but at least bolt is an answer and doesn't use up deck building space.
@kodieyost - RE Combo decks that "inevitability" you with topdecks - There are other ways to deal with this besides trying to race with StW, that play to our strengths of total control. As mentioned in some of my previous posts: Extirpate and Surgical Extraction makes sure you won't get YOLO'd out since you just exile the problem cards. That is a controlling way of dealing with the problem instead of resorting to aggro in a control deck. Spell Burst is another that allows you to infinitely counter all topdecks. My previous game against Valakut, I countered 4 topdecks with just 1 Spell Burst and I even have the option to go full on aggro with Snap/Bolt. What I'm trying to say is that we have the cards in the Modern pool to deal with these situations. It may feel harder to attempt to control these situations as opposed to just ending the game faster but if there's any deck in Modern that can deal with this via control methods, it's Esper.
Also, you may have the inevitability against MOST fair decks with just Snaps/Manlands. But I notice a lot of fair decks these days are even more grindier and it's not as simple as guaranteed wins with snaps/manlands. Grixis also employs snaps/manlands but they have Kolaghan's Command on top of this. Do you think your 4 Snaps/ 4 Manlands are more inevitable than Grixis's Infinite Snaps + Manlands?
That's some impressive results your having
Eldrazi Tron is a bit of a grind fest, I think I timed out about 10 seconds before my opponent, game 3 last time I played them and I don't consider myself a slow player. I find if they don't kill you with the nuts, then the game can drag on and on. I actually disagree that Esper Charm discard mode is that good against them. They usually find a Sea Gate Wreckage which makes the discard mode super awkward. But if you have a way to get rid of that particular land, then the discard should be a fine play.
I think amelk0 mentioned ages back that Baneslayer can do the rounds against Dredge too. She seems like a solid choice if you have room in the side.
I'd say Esper is favoured. TT is brutal and Charm's discard mode is a big threat. Gets even better sideboard with Thoughtseize if you play those. UW can only really hope to catch you without a counter and slam an early planeswalker and Ancestral Vision would be their best way of keeping up in the CA battle but not all UW lists are on AV. They may also cheese you out with Seas/Tec Edge/GQ but tbh, because they lack a clock, it's not too problematic, unlike Merfolk who can capitalise on this form of disruption.
Postboard, the only worrying cards they can bring in for mine would be RIP or Geist, followed by either more walkers or hatebears like Clique/Queller to try and hope to tempo you out since the long game is generally in our favour.
I've had a pretty positive record against UW control with my Teachings list and the last UW player I beat online literally stalled the timer when I had him beat and messaged me saying that he was MAD SALTY because he just got dominated so hard in the long game CA battle. At least he was honest