No disrespect to you or anyone else here but I feel like I kinda answered all that in my previous reply and the discussion is getting a bit cyclical so I'm replying at my own peril here. What I'm really confused about though is this bizarre "sufficient hate" argument, which seems to imply that the people propagating it (Control players specifically) deserve or are owed what they deem to be "sufficient hate", using busted cards from eons ago as benchmarks. Why do you feel entitled to that? I don't get it.Quote from idSurge »No, I've long accepted that hard control is a dog, and frankly should be. The question to me is simply 'is there hate that is sufficient, or is it deck choice that matters more'.
For example Stony against Affinity, or War's Wage. Those can go in any deck, and matter against Affinity. When you say 'I dont even care about Claim and just run them over with TKS' that to me says the hate simply isnt sufficient.
EDIT: Like for example if I tap out, and a surprise Choke hits me. I'm 99% dead. Right there. Is there anything that does that against Tron? It feels like a huge nope.
And for the record, my winrates against Control with my big bad Tron deck in the month of June:
Jeskai: 8-8 (50%)
UW: 2-3 (40%)
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1. Control can tap out in earlier turns to deploy a creature, board wipe or planeswalker.
2. Strong turn 1-2 plays (most of which involve a noncreature spell, see faithless looting and ancient stirrings).
3. You need to make your opponent stumble to generate a tempo advantage.
For instance, I play some grixis shadow. Last night I deployed a turn two angler on the draw against a rakdos control deck, which was promptly met by a Liliana of the Veil using its -2 to turn the tide. With a couple forces in the 75, that play becomes way riskier, because even as a two for one, them losing a turn while I now have a 5/5 clock and plenty of cantrips is a big deal.
Another one, assuming we adopt the London Mulligan: you are on merfolk (which I think gets a big boost from this card) against tron. They mull to 5 and get tower, mine, chromatic star, sylvan scrying, karn. They have the nuts, but a force of negation can give the merfolk player the extra turn needed to win on the crackback instead of worrying about attacking down the planeswalker.
One more, why not? UW control against phoenix, they lead with a faithless looting and drop a phoenix and a land. You can play serum visions turn one. Phoenix player goes for manamorphose turn two. Oops, forced! Is the game over? Not at all, but you didn't have to sit there with a mana open to threaten spell pierce or snare.
These aren't extremely weird situations, in my opinion. There are certainly times force will not be that good, but that sort of thinking applies to every single card in the game. Even if negation becomes a two-of type "well at least I have a chance now" style of counterspell, hell its a step up from before, and it has the mental impact of players being more cautious. I am already looking at ways to build shadow to accomodate a couple.
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Here's the reality: if you are right, and the item is overpriced, very few will sell, and in a couple months you will be able to snag a box of MH for substantially less. If it holds its value, as almost every other premium product has, it just means that your concept of value is different from the vast majority of people.
Oh, and capitalism ******* rocks. I'll throw this out there for the above poster:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/05/14/no-the-rich-didnt-get-rich-at-the-expense-of-the-poor/#3307cd8c38ca
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I mean you'd need an elvish spirit guide to get the kill, though a might of old krosa would do the trick!
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The newer canopy printings are already dropping. IMA copies on TCGPlayer have plumtted from high 50s to low 40s. WOTC will finish the cycle, and there's virtually no chance they only print horizon lands in a future set for UW, UB, BR, and RG while leaving out the original.
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I won't, and here is why:
Infect
Burn
Storm
Valakut
Ad Nauseam
You can easily build a deck that preys on tron. I personally believe that the problem isn't tron, because these decks still exist with very good tron matchups. The problem really, is that tron has the best late game of just about any deck in modern. The other side is that people usually call for bans on decks that are fast. The slower the format becomes, the better tron gets. In short, the current situation is actually the result of UW control becoming so good. I say this based on years of seeing people complain about "mindless goldfish" decks which I have said for ages serve a critical role in keeping ramp down. It has only been a couple weeks of tron being #1. I would rather people start to gravitate towards these decks to beat tron (and other things, they certainly have other good matchups) and create something more akin to a rock/paper/scissors meta.***
***most of this is motivated by my extreme hatred of slow, boring control and midrange decks
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hierarch
kitesail
both thalias
champion of the parish on turn 2 vast majority of the time
meddling mage
sin collector
knight of autumn
this also means you can hold your searing blaze for mantis riders, reflector mages, etc. Path also matters still because of auriok champion, which is usually a 2 or 3-of in a humans SB. Champion slows the game down to a painful crawl, and I personally like having the out. I have contemplated splitting between path and ensnaring bridge or even engineered explosives. Never tried either, but they certainly have their uses. Then again, if you have a full playset of skullcrack in the 75 that helps too. I might be overthinking.
Think about the top decks in modern right now overall: tron, humans, uw, phoenix. Path is good in all of those matchups, as you have to contend with wurmcoil, various big humans, lyra or baneslayer out of the uw sideboard, and thing/drake. If you hate giving up the land and want to play chained to the rocks, fine I'll give you that. I just think there are too many creatures that have more than three points of toughness that spell "game over." Palm is nice, but my issue with palm is the extra mana plus narrower window of use. I think I've had one big swing from palm ever steal a game.
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Except that wasn't the point I made. The point was that Tron's weaknesses are well-known. You go underneath. If you want to beat tron, play something that is better against tron. It feels to me that oftentimes the people who only like midrange and control want to ban everything that beats them. I have, however, addressed your post's general point before: everyone in modern has to sometimes sit across from an opponent where they will be a three to one underdog. ***** happens.
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Other note, here's the thing I love about the tron hate: it is well known that several decks are good against tron. Valakut, burn, infect, storm, ad nausea, all great choices. What tron is good against is known, yet the folks who hate tron also hate everything that beats tron.