WOTC isn't going to make a new eternal format that is basically standard plus the previous year's two blocks. Why replace modern, or even try to damage legacy, when WOTC can print a "Masters" set every year and make a ton of cash without nearly the level of expense for R&D? The profit margin on those sets has to be way up compared to standard sets.
This. People act like Modern card scarcity is going to kill the format by making staples too expensive like Legacy. Legacy's primary problem is the reserve list. WotC can cash in on any staple that gains too high a price tag by printing it in a Masters set to ensure the product sells. The only thing that would kill Modern is dwindling popularity in the format... which shows no signs of happening right now. It's been perhaps the most popular format for a while now.
The prices are too high for a 4 of format right now. The best path most players have if they get done with standard is to build a commander deck and play casually until they build enough cards from that to get 4x of what they need, and that only works with certain deck types. Modern and EDH don't really has as much cross over as people like to think outside of mana base and perhaps a few staple cards. maelstrom pulse is a very strong removal card and would be first pick in an EDH deck, but then it can be replaced in that format by any number of other removal spells as it is only one in a roughly 54 card pile of non-land, non-mana rock cards.
"the prices are too high" is a subjective statement. There are competitive modern decks that fall between $500 and $1,500. That's a wide range. Those prices are based on optimal builds, too, like running burn with twelve fetchlands divided at three of each that can search up a mountain or Eldrazi Tron with a full playset of chalice in the 75. I'm playing a storm deck right now without Scalding Tarn. That's a competitive combo deck that I built for like $250.
I think one problem is that people see modern for the first time and want to play the following week. Each modern deck I've had (blue tron, grixis delver, storm) took a few months to save up the money needed. Just remember that a year ago goyfs were all like $140. WOTC is doing better than you think.
WOTC isn't going to make a new eternal format that is basically standard plus the previous year's two blocks. Why replace modern, or even try to damage legacy, when WOTC can print a "Masters" set every year and make a ton of cash without nearly the level of expense for R&D? The profit margin on those sets has to be way up compared to standard sets.
[quote from="BlueTronFTW »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/780164-temporary-state-of-the-meta-thread-rules-update-7?comment=470"]
says the guy whose name is blue tron....I wonder if there is any bias in your words.
jund has been tier 1, forever, most of the time. and now it isnt, because of eldrazi. which is a deck that slams fatties way ahead of curve. that is not the direction I think modern should head if we want a balance between broken and fair. but im sure you are on the side of broken, so im not going to argue with you anymore.
Strawmanning again, as has been pointed out already. Your arguments consist entirely of personal opinions (I want deck X to be tier 1), or fallacies (strawmans).
It doesn't matter how long jund has been tier 1. Interactive decks are very viable in modern. Grixis Shadow, Abzan midrange, and UW control chief among them. Eldrazi Tron has interaction as well. With that being made clear, your argument is now that ONE PARTICULAR deck needs to exist as a sign of format health, and I don't buy it.
So tell us, why does jund midrange have to exist for modern to be good?
We play enough to be continually disappointed. I wonder how many people that actually praise modern play on a regular basis, some do but not all
Well, I'm playing plenty pretty much every weekend on MTGO, so I can't speak for others but can speak for my own positive experience. Given how the recent major events (GP, Classics, Challenges, Opens) mirror my experience, the critics either aren't playing or are playing metagames that aren't representative of the general format. I really don't think any metagame short of a Legacy one would satisfy many critics, but thankfully, Wizards has moved away from that kind of format so the critics just need to adjust and/or move on.
Related: I don't know what the critics even realistically want. There are so many viable top-tier interactive decks they can play. Just pick one and stop complaining.
To be clear, I do think there are things in Modern worth criticizing. For example, white could be better. But this myth about a format of non-interactive decks hasn't been true since January 2017 and it needs to stop.
so your saying that your weekend mtg games carry more weight than stats and other players experience? Ones that may be playing the game alot more than yourself?
Given that you continue to claim in your signature that you aren't playing any Modern any more, I could ask you the same question?
Cuts both ways.
signature is outdated. bad argument
It's not a bad argument when its made best on the best information available.
While eldrazi temple and mox opal are "fine" for modern because the decks they see play in aren't overly oppressive those cards do make modern worse by increasing the amount of non games. I really wish something would just go ahead and break them so we can get them out of the format. This waiting game has gotten old
The problem is, almost every Modern deck is trying to “cheat” on mana/tempo in some form or another.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Gurmag Angler
Simian Spirit Guide
Goryo's Vengeance
Any 3 CMC card with cascade
Aether Vial
Collected Company
Burning Tree Emissary
Hidden Herbalists
Prized Amalgam
Bloodghast
There are a ton more, but it's essentially what every deck is trying to do. Most of the decks that make use of Opal have strategies that are hurt pretty badly by artifact hate. Temple, I can see people being justifiably upset about, since Temple is used to rush out early Thought-Knot Seer which is a preemptive answer to a lot of potential hate that could be played against Temple decks, but it just doesn't have the meta-share and wins to warrant any action.
There ya go.
The problem isn't Eldrazi Temple. The problem is the idea that modern is a format all about playing on curve. This is a hyper efficient format where you are going to have to cheat mana somehow. Hell this list didn't even mention the Tron lands or Storms mana reducers.
Mana efficiency is always the name of the game and that's exactly why Eldrazi Temple is too good for this format. Not going into specifics here, regardless of how warranted they are as quite a few of them are straw-man arguments (some are actually amusingly wrong), all of the cards listed here have very real costs when it comes to deck construction, most if not all of them can be interacted with on the stack or with graveyard/artifact hate and almost none of them provide near as plentiful, quick and resilient mana acceleration as Eldrazi Temple does (heck some of the cards listed don't even make mana!). How do you interact with a turn two Thought-Knot Seer on the play? Thoughtseize it and pray they don't peel another one? Even if they played it on turn 3 you should be sweating bullets since you can't attack their acceleration and the mana disadvantage that implies will become more significant as the game progresses.
Tron has to go through nigh infinite hoops and has to make very significant deck building restrictions just to be able to, on turn 3, do something decks with Eldrazi Temple can lucksack into naturally on turn 2; play high impact threats way ahead of curve without suffering any card disadvantage and retain the ability to do so for the rest of the game.
I repeat, this isn't about meta shares. Those are important but they aren't the only factor (just ask storm players when Seething Song got the chop). Ancient Tombs shouldn't be Modern legal, especially if the format has close to no ways to interact with said lands in the early game in a meaningful way. I would go so far as to say that it is the single most powerful mana producer the format has, especially in multiples.
exactly this. but people will keep bringing up that its only tier 1 not 0, and that its meta shares are fine ect ect.
Ignoring the fact that since its rise, Jund has fallen hard. which is huuuuuge for a deck that held the top tiers for soo long. if that isn't an indicator of broken...I don't know what is.
Some actual indicators of broken:
1. Violating the turn 4 rule with relative frequency.
2. Dominating the metagame shares (tier zero)
3. Pushing out all other viable strategies (eldrazi tron is the only grindy eldrazi deck)
Those are some real examples. Jund midrange has no right to exist in any format. Abzan is better for BGx midrange and is very viable. Jund Shadow is a jund deck but has a different game plan. Again, I keep saying this and I have yet to see a valid argument, but Jund not being tier 1 isn't a sign of broken...unless you spent two grand on jund or more foiling it out and want to protect your "investment."
While eldrazi temple and mox opal are "fine" for modern because the decks they see play in aren't overly oppressive those cards do make modern worse by increasing the amount of non games. I really wish something would just go ahead and break them so we can get them out of the format. This waiting game has gotten old
The problem is, almost every Modern deck is trying to “cheat” on mana/tempo in some form or another.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Gurmag Angler
Simian Spirit Guide
Goryo's Vengeance
Any 3 CMC card with cascade
Aether Vial
Collected Company
Burning Tree Emissary
Hidden Herbalists
Prized Amalgam
Bloodghast
There are a ton more, but it's essentially what every deck is trying to do. Most of the decks that make use of Opal have strategies that are hurt pretty badly by artifact hate. Temple, I can see people being justifiably upset about, since Temple is used to rush out early Thought-Knot Seer which is a preemptive answer to a lot of potential hate that could be played against Temple decks, but it just doesn't have the meta-share and wins to warrant any action.
There ya go.
The problem isn't Eldrazi Temple. The problem is the idea that modern is a format all about playing on curve. This is a hyper efficient format where you are going to have to cheat mana somehow. Hell this list didn't even mention the Tron lands or Storms mana reducers.
Oh FFS his post was an hour ago and your talking as if we were actively avoiding it, idsurge. He stated Grixis Shadow is better than Jund Shadow. I don't disagree. I disagree with the idea that this is a problem. First, there's no law stopping you from playing Jund. Second, no deck has the right to be tier 1, that's no color combination, no archetype, nada. Hell my storm deck will probably eat a ban in the next year because WOTC hates storm. It will become irrelevant, and that's okay with me.
It's easy to pick apart things when you add qualifiers like "shadowless." Actually though the most successful "shadowless" URx deck runs no maindeck big mana hate cards and wins via grapeshot.
Calling storm a blue red deck is like calling infect "blue green stompy" or dredge a grixis aggro. Storm is another weirdo that only abuses one keyword 'storm', it doesn't care color identity almost at all.
Card draw and selection, a very big aspect of storm, is also very much a blue concept. My point was that he said shadowless URx deck as if that color combination, without death shadow, was supposed to represent a more specific archetype than simply any deck with those two colors.
This all ties in to what I've said about blue based control and BGx midrange: people think certain color combinations should not only be playable, and not only tier 1, but to exist in that way with certain strategies. In reality, it's just a matter of all five colors being represented, and with different archetypes being represented. This exists in modern, but those two big themes don't have to overlap to a particular person's liking. For instance, jund is viable right now in DSJ, a deck that runs LOTV, discard, removal...its a grindy deck that has an aggressive win condition to shore up what was normally a bad matchup in big mana decks. Jund literally has evolved to beat tron and valakut, yet some old Jund players are very resistant to that evolution. Same with Grixis.
It's weird because burn did this a while back. Lists that were mostly naya lists with cats streamlined into boros builds. I wasn't paying as much attention, so I'm not sure how much fight there was over that. Bant eldrazi evolved to E-tron...again not sure about the pushback.
They both suck a lot. Grixis shadow isn't quite as bad as it looks. I've said it before but play skill is a huge factor in this matchup. Pieces also makes it much more winnable.
To fight against D&T I reccomend trying out pyroclasm (much easier to cast under Thalia than Anger) and some number of Dismember. I would trim on Blood Moon to fit all of this.
I just won my first match of UR Storm online. I know I shouldn't be hyped because I've been playing Storm for years but it feels good to win (especially through a relic).
I already run 3 Bolt, 2 Dismember, 2 Echoing Truth, 2 Dispel, 3 Empty the Warrens, and 2 Vandalblast. What should I cut for PYroclasm?
You listed 14 cards, so apparently you already were prepared to add a pyroclasm.
But you can't deny land destruction in modern is incredibly bad
We aren't seeing all these big mana decks in the meta for no reason, you have to go underneath them very quickly with fast aggro (which is nearly dead outside of burn and affinity) or fast combo
Fair decks honestly have no real answer to big mana, rejection is one of the primary reasons blue isn't utterly crushed now.
fair decks like jund would have an easier time in this format if we had less big mana. It's not like it's affinity burn merfolk and storm that are keeping them down...
Currently valakut and etron are top tier with tron almost tier 1 and bant eldrazi tier 2.
So I'm not suprised with why jund is tier 3 and the most successful shadowless urx deck has 8 maindeck big mana hate cards.
It's easy to pick apart things when you add qualifiers like "shadowless." Actually though the most successful "shadowless" URx deck runs no maindeck big mana hate cards and wins via grapeshot.
The best deck in the format is an interactive grixis deck that runs an entire playset of snapcaster mage...and people are mad about blue, counters, and interaction.
But you can't deny land destruction in modern is incredibly bad
We aren't seeing all these big mana decks in the meta for no reason, you have to go underneath them very quickly with fast aggro (which is nearly dead outside of burn and affinity) or fast combo
Fair decks honestly have no real answer to big mana, rejection is one of the primary reasons blue isn't utterly crushed now.
That's how metagames operate...some decks just have bad matchups against other styles of decks. I mean doesn't there come a point where a player is just asking to have an archetype with no weakness?
It feels like a lot of these bans and unbans are based solely around people wanting to play their pet decks with zero bad matchups. I understand that we can't all own a gauntlet of modern decks for any situation. I certainly don't have that budget. But that's a risk you take in picking a deck, and there's no guarantee it'll always be at its spot in the meta.
"the prices are too high" is a subjective statement. There are competitive modern decks that fall between $500 and $1,500. That's a wide range. Those prices are based on optimal builds, too, like running burn with twelve fetchlands divided at three of each that can search up a mountain or Eldrazi Tron with a full playset of chalice in the 75. I'm playing a storm deck right now without Scalding Tarn. That's a competitive combo deck that I built for like $250.
I think one problem is that people see modern for the first time and want to play the following week. Each modern deck I've had (blue tron, grixis delver, storm) took a few months to save up the money needed. Just remember that a year ago goyfs were all like $140. WOTC is doing better than you think.
Strawmanning again, as has been pointed out already. Your arguments consist entirely of personal opinions (I want deck X to be tier 1), or fallacies (strawmans).
It doesn't matter how long jund has been tier 1. Interactive decks are very viable in modern. Grixis Shadow, Abzan midrange, and UW control chief among them. Eldrazi Tron has interaction as well. With that being made clear, your argument is now that ONE PARTICULAR deck needs to exist as a sign of format health, and I don't buy it.
So tell us, why does jund midrange have to exist for modern to be good?
It's not a bad argument when its made best on the best information available.
Some actual indicators of broken:
1. Violating the turn 4 rule with relative frequency.
2. Dominating the metagame shares (tier zero)
3. Pushing out all other viable strategies (eldrazi tron is the only grindy eldrazi deck)
Those are some real examples. Jund midrange has no right to exist in any format. Abzan is better for BGx midrange and is very viable. Jund Shadow is a jund deck but has a different game plan. Again, I keep saying this and I have yet to see a valid argument, but Jund not being tier 1 isn't a sign of broken...unless you spent two grand on jund or more foiling it out and want to protect your "investment."
There ya go.
The problem isn't Eldrazi Temple. The problem is the idea that modern is a format all about playing on curve. This is a hyper efficient format where you are going to have to cheat mana somehow. Hell this list didn't even mention the Tron lands or Storms mana reducers.
Card draw and selection, a very big aspect of storm, is also very much a blue concept. My point was that he said shadowless URx deck as if that color combination, without death shadow, was supposed to represent a more specific archetype than simply any deck with those two colors.
This all ties in to what I've said about blue based control and BGx midrange: people think certain color combinations should not only be playable, and not only tier 1, but to exist in that way with certain strategies. In reality, it's just a matter of all five colors being represented, and with different archetypes being represented. This exists in modern, but those two big themes don't have to overlap to a particular person's liking. For instance, jund is viable right now in DSJ, a deck that runs LOTV, discard, removal...its a grindy deck that has an aggressive win condition to shore up what was normally a bad matchup in big mana decks. Jund literally has evolved to beat tron and valakut, yet some old Jund players are very resistant to that evolution. Same with Grixis.
It's weird because burn did this a while back. Lists that were mostly naya lists with cats streamlined into boros builds. I wasn't paying as much attention, so I'm not sure how much fight there was over that. Bant eldrazi evolved to E-tron...again not sure about the pushback.
You listed 14 cards, so apparently you already were prepared to add a pyroclasm.
It's easy to pick apart things when you add qualifiers like "shadowless." Actually though the most successful "shadowless" URx deck runs no maindeck big mana hate cards and wins via grapeshot.
That's how metagames operate...some decks just have bad matchups against other styles of decks. I mean doesn't there come a point where a player is just asking to have an archetype with no weakness?