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  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I've been loving Force of negation, the math behind the cards actually says that 16-17 blue cards is enough. If you want one in your opening hand and a blue card you need to up it a little bit to 19 for it to be reliable. There is an article by Frank Karsten on CFB that breaks it down further, and one for Force of Will by Caleb Durward also on CFB. We are basically playing the minimum to have it be 90%+ chance of having a card to pitch, which should be enough.

    Always having a card to pitch to thirst isn't always needed, normally the card selection is enough. The card advantage half of the card is certainly nice though. I'm currently playing 12 maindeck artifacts and have never felt bad about discarding 2 or having a Walking Ballista or Expedition Map to discard.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Congrats on the 4-0. I totally forgot about the switch over to mtgnexus so I didn't even know that site was going. I know a lot of us are just testing whether or not Karn, the Great Creator and Force of Negation are good in the deck as of late.

    I probably could write it but I feel like Shok, Trellon, Pie or Bloody should write it. Perhaps in collaboration since they all have pretty distinct builds.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I have to side with bloody here. Most of the time our deck wins if the game goes past turn 4. Our main struggle is actually getting to that point. Having a free interaction spell, while we can still advance our game is the crucial thing we needed. Force is easily the best card in our deck now. With Hogaak and decks trying to race it, having that early interaction is basically needed for us to survive.

    Karn, the Great Creator obviously feels powerful when he does his thing. however sometimes you can cast him and just die. Maybe my wish board was wrong or not strong enough. Karn never won me games that a wurmcoil, mindslaver or even a walking ballista would have in the same position. So with that, I decided to cut him from the list. The tool box strategy I've found to be ineffective for a while now, I cut the tutors over a year ago and haven't looked back. Getting them from the sideboard is nice but I felt it was often times too slow. Sure a Turn 3 tron into Karn + Trinisphere or ensnaring bridge or chalice of the void on one is nice but that is a "perfect" sequence of 4 cards with your opponent having zero interaction.

    Perhaps my initial idea of going hard control with Karn GC as our finisher is the right build for him. I've found hard control to be a better game plan for us over being a medium big mana midrange deck.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    How has echoing truth been for you? Its something I've always wanted to try and I see it in your Cyclonic rift slot. Additionally how has 4 Force been? I'm currently at 2 and probably want to go up to 3.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    With the release of modern horizons here is the list I have been playing. I did not like Karn, the Great Creator, and have decided to part with him. I could be just flat wrong and he is likely the best route for the deck but I have been doing just fine with out him.




    This is a list I play in paper. My current LGS does not have any Hogaak and is just a pile of Midrange and Combo. I probably do not need the spatial contortions but there is always the rogue humans player that I need them for.

    If I was playing my list on MTGO or at a large paper event, I would likely change the sideboard to:



    My main reason for not having the Leylines in my current deck is that I just don't own any in paper and don't have the funds to acquire them.

    Force of Negation has been insane for me. I have won several games off of my opponents not expecting it, or not being able to play around 2-3+ counterspells in a turn.

    A lack of Chalice of the Void, I currently do not own any but I feel that they aren't always necessary for us to win games. When they are relevant and we have them on a meaningful turn, they always feel amazing. But aside from that they feel horrid. In a Great Creator build I would certainly have chalices, as you are sacrificing some of your defensive spells to be more all in on that wincon.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    We also got exclude which is an interesting card. Probably not good enough for us to play, it's yet another option from this set.

    I'm very excited about trying Fact or Fiction
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I was going to ask the same thing. Its obviously strong but can we afford to play it. According to an article from 2011 on CFB by Caleb Durward. (I don't know if we can post links to it but it easy enough to find) 15 is the minimum number of blue cards to make force of will playable with the alternate casting cost. My list plays 16 and I believe most people are around there as well.

    Like a lot of other nice blue cards spoiled in War and now Modern Horizon's I think its better against us than for us. The Card disadvantage and only costing zero on our opponents turn is rough.I definitely want to try it when it is released though.


    Side note. I played in a SCG IQ this weekend and came in 9th. Damn Tie breakers, was hoping to have my list posted. I felt pretty good about it other than running 3 negates. I wish I would have had 3 Spreading seas or 2 seas /1 negate. The meta was nearly 25% Tron, 25% Humans.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Thanks for the reply! I'll definitely give it a shot. Those were just my initial thoughts, I've wanted to try them for a while and you seeing that they at least show some amount of promise, is encouraging. I can see the use of 3 EE in the 75 for sure. Seems like a solid fit especially with the color fixing from all the eggs.

    I definitely forgot that just using them to fix for blue on their turn was good. I am used to them in Green tron and just aggressively popping them for green to cantrip.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    With the average list at 9-11 blue sources, a double blue card is not really feasible for us to cast till turn 5. (I used a hyper geometric calc that assumed 10 sources, on the draw and we've cast thirst, or have seen three extra cards. And that gives us ~78% chance)

    The cards do look good and I would love to play Narset, but we'd need drastically more blue sources for us to reliably cast them by turn 3.

    I do think narset is probably better against us than it would be in our deck (even if we shifted our Mana to be able to cast it). The static shuts down our main way to survive through the control mirror. Only drawing one card a turn is probably game ending if not dealt with.

    Ashiok is probably not good in our deck, just like Narset. I personally play a lower number of tutors than other versions (only maps and new Karn). The incidental graveyard hate would be nice but Relic of Progenitus is a card we can maindeck that is on theme and draws cards.


    I think Teferi, time raveler is also a rough card for us to play against UWx control. Losing instant speed is rough. I haven't played against UW since war has been released and I can't imagine that the match up is slightly in our favor anymore. It's probably more so in theirs now (assuming both players are on an even playing ability).
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    It depends on what you are trying to do with the sb. IMO, if you are playing 1 Karn I don't think we can afford to go full silver bullet sideboard. You want good cards that apply in several matchups, just in case Karn is bad. Chalice is a main deck card that you could swap with batterskull if you really want it in your side. Tutoring for chalice with Karn is way too slow. Chalice for one on turn 3 if we have Tron and Karn still seems too slow for it to really effect the game in a meaningful way.

    With siding Karn out. With your board I don't think you can afford to regardless of the matchup. With 2, in aggressive matchups I would definitely side one out. He is pretty poor as a turn 4 play, even with tron (and I assume an island). I'm playing one Karn in my maindeck and siding him out in anything that attacks aggressively. He is much better against artifacts, slower combo and control.


    @Barrin
    I've too thought about going crazy and playing stars and spheres. I think it's definitely something to explore but I fear it just makes us a worse green tron. We are MUCH weaker to Stony silence and Chalice of the void if we go into the 10+ 1 Mana artifacts. I do think if we go down that route you might as well go all in and play the 3-4 relics main too. This should allow us to cut down even more lands and probably play 21+-1

    Doing that though will probably cut back the usefulness of condescend as we'll probably be more focused on quick Tron, rather than delaying till we can out grind anyone with our Tron Mana. However the useful of Karn Liberated goes up in our deck if we do this. He wins a lot of games if just played on turn 3.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    At 4 Mana I'd rather play hieroglyphic illumination because we can always cycle it for 1 Mana to avoid counterspells or have an early turn 1 play. *Edit* If it needs to be four Mana and sorcery speed, Karn, Scion of Urza is a better card. He draws more cards if he doesn't die right away and can be a wincon all on his own.


    There is certainly a lot of cards in war of the spark for us to try out though. I have a feeling Blast Zone or Karn, the Great Creator will be Mainstays in the deck.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Biggest difference between Karn, Scion of Urza and new Karn is that Sion of Urza provides a way to get to tron as well as being good once we have it. The Great Creator is more like a fancy (very fancy) and weird fabricate. That is not really true, my point is that he most likely wont help us hit land drops. The card advantage is very limited in the sense that we need to have the cards in our sideboard. We really don't want to put darksteel citadel in our sideboard, or maps or talismans for that matter. I'm not sure he's good in our deck, I think I will have to try him out first.



    I'm not trying him as a value engine but more as a win condition. I'm trying him as basically a mindslaver in our deck. Obviously not very good the turn we can cast it, but if we can cast and crack the game usually ends. I see this Karn in that kind of slot in the deck. Most games that grind we end up winning anyway, regardless of having a Karn, Scion of Urza or other walker. I'm trying him out now, but I never had issues in a long game before playing him.

    I do think it is right to probably only play 1 Karn, the Great Creator because he does not got us into the end game. He doesn't stabilize a board state like oblivion stone or wurmcoil engine, but can win a game pretty quickly. He might end up being a win more rather than a card that actually helps us win games more consistently, but it is too early to tell.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I think Karn, The Great Creator is definitely good. I've been trying him out on xmage beta and with proxies. I do think he will earn a spot in the list. I still cannot decide if the more traditional style or going full control is better with him. both versions obviously have their own reasons for being good against certain archetypes and being poor against others.

    I've been trying


    I don't own any Chalice of the void otherwise I would find room for at least 3 of them in the 75 (probably in the main, potentially as replacements for the Relics). New Karn does feel great as a win condition or a way to stablize the game even if he were to die. He feels very strong but is definitely an embarrassing topdeck in the early game, if you don't have tron mana he really doesn't do much. After 6 mana or if you feel you have two turns (for O stone) he feels extremely strong.

    I think the 75 of this list probably needs some more tuning but it definitely feels strong. I'm curious to see what the more accomplished U tron players will do with the new Karn, if he is even played at all.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Oh it's definitely not better than EE it's just another potential utility land. I'm excited to try it. Hopefully it's good but it not hitting zero cmc is a definite downside.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    What do y'all think about that new EE/Rachet bomb land that just got leaked?

    Explosion Zone* (pending translation)

    Explosion zone etbs with 1 counter.

    tap: add a colorless

    XX tap: put x counters on Explosion zone

    3 tap: sac, destroy all nonland permenants with cmc = the number of counters.

    This seems extremely strong as a utility land in our deck or Amulet.
    Posted in: Control
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