MTG Salvation

With the release of modern horizons here is the list I have been playing. I did not like Karn, the Great Creator, and have decided to part with him. I could be just flat wrong and he is likely the best route for the deck but I have been doing just fine with out him.




This is a list I play in paper. My current LGS does not have any Hogaak and is just a pile of Midrange and Combo. I probably do not need the spatial contortions but there is always the rogue humans player that I need them for.

If I was playing my list on MTGO or at a large paper event, I would likely change the sideboard to:



My main reason for not having the Leylines in my current deck is that I just don't own any in paper and don't have the funds to acquire them.

Force of Negation has been insane for me. I have won several games off of my opponents not expecting it, or not being able to play around 2-3+ counterspells in a turn.

A lack of Chalice of the Void, I currently do not own any but I feel that they aren't always necessary for us to win games. When they are relevant and we have them on a meaningful turn, they always feel amazing. But aside from that they feel horrid. In a Great Creator build I would certainly have chalices, as you are sacrificing some of your defensive spells to be more all in on that wincon.

We also got exclude which is an interesting card. Probably not good enough for us to play, it's yet another option from this set.

I'm very excited about trying Fact or Fiction

With the average list at 9-11 blue sources, a double blue card is not really feasible for us to cast till turn 5. (I used a hyper geometric calc that assumed 10 sources, on the draw and we've cast thirst, or have seen three extra cards. And that gives us ~78% chance)

The cards do look good and I would love to play Narset, but we'd need drastically more blue sources for us to reliably cast them by turn 3.

I do think narset is probably better against us than it would be in our deck (even if we shifted our Mana to be able to cast it). The static shuts down our main way to survive through the control mirror. Only drawing one card a turn is probably game ending if not dealt with.

Ashiok is probably not good in our deck, just like Narset. I personally play a lower number of tutors than other versions (only maps and new Karn). The incidental graveyard hate would be nice but Relic of Progenitus is a card we can maindeck that is on theme and draws cards.


I think Teferi, time raveler is also a rough card for us to play against UWx control. Losing instant speed is rough. I haven't played against UW since war has been released and I can't imagine that the match up is slightly in our favor anymore. It's probably more so in theirs now (assuming both players are on an even playing ability).

I definitely agree with this. An all-in version in theory looks super fun but its probably pretty unrealistic. It'll require tons of mana and having multiple spells resolve AND that those spells have impact. I think 1-2 is probably the right amount with a small number of threats and our usual artifact answers in the board.

Overall I'm looking forward to trying this new Karn as a potential new combo and value engine in our deck. The plus can allow us to either remove non creature artifacts with our mainboard removal, or use our talismans and/or other artifacts to present a clock. The tutor is obvious reason we would play this card, allowing us more answers and a more diverse threat suite without having to dilute our main deck too much.

The card is obviously slow and better when we are already ahead. But its not a terrible topdeck if we already have tons of mana and no threats in hand/no academy ruins targets.

Hypothetical lists*

This is something I would try from my current list as a way to try out Karn.


I don't know if we can afford to go so low on wincons in the main and hope we draw the Karn (even if it is a 4 of) to win the game. Although I guess if set up more similar to yours, we could try to mimic UW control with basically no win cons besides the walkers. Maybe something like:



I very much like the consistency have 3s and 4s in our deck gives. This also allows us to have that tutor package a lot of us really love about this deck. There perhaps should be some number of Chalice of the Void in the main but its always 50/50 whether its good in any given matchup in modern.

With the Karn, Lattice combo as long as the opponent doesn't already have creatures out we win the game so this is definitely a strong potential wincon.

Walking Ballista is definitely great to have in the deck. I'm playing the full 4 in the deck and don't regret it. I've never been a fan of fabricate, if I'm going to play a tutor, I'd rather it be one the mages (Trinket/treasure).They block for a turn or can represent a clock that most control decks just let sit there for couple turns.

If you are worried about burn you can play more wurmcoils or more chalice in the maindeck. Wurmcoil is also good against humans, same with walking ballista.

I don't know if pithing needle is needed in the board, the things with activated abilities we are really worried about we normally can answer pretty easily (e.g. Teferi), they are spending 5 and we'll probably win that counter war with them down 5 mana.

I used to play batterskull and Sundering titan. They were fun when they got people but I've that wurmcoil engine is just way better. It comes in the same turn as batterskull if we have fast tron, or a turn faster than titan. I think titan is a win more rather than a win condition.

You can almost never go wrong with negates for the side board. I could see in your side going up a ballista, tks or spatial/dismember in the side to help you creature matchups even more

Went 3-0 last night at my lgs, like normal it was kind of a small tournament but still fun regardless. My meta is very well suited for us. I played the list I posted above (its also in my signature under the modern button).

Round 1: Tezzerator (won 2-1)
I had lent cards to my opponent so they could actually play tonight, so I knew what they were on and what kind of hands to keep.

Game 1: Kept a pretty controlling hand that still had access to quick tron with counterspell backup. turn 7 I played and cracked mindslaver with the opponent tapped out. They conceded.

SideBoard:
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Negate, 3 Thought-Knot Seer
Out: 3 Wurmcoil Engine, 4 Dismember, 1 Expedition Map

Game 2: This Game I thought would be easy with an opening hand with 2 surgicals, 3 lands and 2 condescend. This game went very long and everytime I tried surgically he had 2 thopterfoundry which basically made it impossible. It went back and forth but I was definitely outplayed in the long game. I did not draw any real threats and my repeals had been surgicalled early on in the game. I had done a cool play with remanding my surgical 2 times (the first remand drawing a second) but stil my opponent had enough mana and artifacts so sac. I probably could have played better in that scenario as my opponent was always leaving up 1 mana when comboing to avoid the surgical.

Game 3: This game also went extremely long but was a really good back and forth game. I played early counterspells and my opponent tapped out to play a pithing needle on oblivion stone, and play a thopter foundry. I didn't have a counterspell, but this was going to my turn 4 and I played a Thought-Knot Seer taking their last card, a Whir of Invention. My opponent then topdecks the sword I gets back up in life, evening it out. I end up drawing a surgical and they play around it. I drew the oblivion stone with tron mana and got their sword. The game was pretty much over at this point as I had academy ruins and tron.



Round 2: Grixis Death's Shadow (2-0)
Being a smaller store, every person who plays consistently knows what decks people are on.

Game 1: I kept an okay 6card hand; 2 lands, a dismember, a condescend and a Thirst For Knowledge, scrying a land to the top. My opponent landed some early hand disruption leaving me nearly threatless however both of us draw runner lands. (feels bad for both of us but my opponent especially). I then land Wurmcoil Engine the turn after they play a Gurmag Angler. we both pass, I draw a second Wurmcoil Engine and play it.

SideBoard:
In: 1 Engineered Explosives
Out: 1 Field of Ruin

Game 2: My hand is kind of slow but has quick tron and a Wurmcoil Engine. My Opponent Fetch shocks and thoughtscours. I play land map. Turn 2 they thoughtseize my wurmcoil and play a gurmag angler. Turn 2 I play another tron land. they play 2 death shadows after cycling a Street Wraith. the next turn I play island in order to have thirst up. They temur battle rage and get me down to 2 from 15. I land tron and a topdeck a wurmcoil engine. They fail to draw an card that can deal me 2 damage. I drew a mindslaver with having another tower in hand. I then proceed slaver them and attack the gurmag into me, blocking with the wurmcoil. I drew bolt for them and killed their 3/3 Death's Shadow as well. Leaving them at 10, zero cards and 1 Death's Shadow. I attack in with the wurmcoil putting them at 4, but I drew a second wurmcoil and play it second mainphase.



Round 3: Mardu Pyromancer (2-1)
We agreed to split prizes because its better for both of us, but we decided to play it out for fun anyway.

Game 1: This is a super back and forth game where both of us answer eachother's threats. I didn't draw a wurmcoil making the game a little more difficult. I dismembered an early pyromancer but it didn't matter, I pretty much drew mono counterspells and lands. I had a slaver but all I did with it was kill another one of their own pyromancers with it. Then thoughtseized their Lotv. They drew Kolaghan's Command and both back a reveler they discarded earlier in the game to a faithless looting. that Reveler killed me.

SideBoard:
In: 1 Engineered Explosives
Out: 1 Field of Ruin

Both Games 2 and 3 Looked fairly similar.
I had early tron in game 2 with an EE on zero to kill tokens for early aggression. Landed mindslaver to screw them up and then drew the academy ruins with 12 mana.

Game 3:
This was a little longer than game 2 with me drawing multiple walking ballista killing off early threats and drawing out removal. I drew a wurmcoil engine and blocked an attacking Young Pyromancer, after blocks they Kolaghan's Command it and buyback a reveler. I managed to have the counter for that and it Scrys me into the mindslaver lock.

My lgs meta is fairly good for us, the decks last night being; 2 Mardu Pyromancer, 1 Grixis Death's Shadow, 1 Kiki-Evolution, 1 8-Rack, 1 Storm, 1 Tezzerator and myself.

Somethings I've noticed from starting the youtube videos and taking slightly better notes, Is I tend to play a little hastily and get punished when I do. So i'll try to slowdown and play a little more conservatively. I tend to think I've turned the corner a turn earlier than I actually have.

I can definitely start recording my games then and post them. I appreciate the quick feedback too

I was just kind of inquiring if Maurizioutron or anyone else wouldn't mind if I used xmage, I'm fairly comfortable with it. I would stream it if people wanted me to. If not I can always just record me playing matches and post them to youtube.

Cube Maxim

I aim to create the most fun, exciting, powerful and balanced custom limited environment
that I can for my playgroup within the confines of a Vintage legal and Singleton legal frame.

Basic Info

Cube Size: 450 Cards

Breakdown: 55 Each Color, 105 Guild/Multicolor, 70 Colorless

Standard or Theme Cube: Standard

Average Draft: 3-6 players

Cube CMC: 2.762


Design Restrictions

Powered?: Yes

Vintage Legal?: Yes

Singleton Legal?: Yes

The only cards I ban from the cube are cards that aren't Vintage legal (Ante cards, Dexterity cards, Un- Cards, Conspiracies & Holiday Promos, etc), cards that can't function within all game types (like draft manipulators that are blanks in Sealed Deck, or cards that would require a commander to function, etc) and cards thar reference "outside of the game" as a zone (Wishes, Companions, etc).

Color Balance?: Yes

Guild Balance?: Yes

Mana Support?: No

Mana Support?: No


Other Info

Here's a link to the cube on CubeCobra if you want to mock draft it:

https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/wtwlf123

Perhaps my initial idea of going hard control with Karn GC as our finisher is the right build for him. I've found hard control to be a better game plan for us over being a medium big mana midrange deck.

Same conclusion I came to. Instead of running lots of utilities in the board, we could just make the space for threats, while running more permission and removals in the main. Which would mean:

Mindslaver
Wurmcoil Engine
Mycosynth Lattice
Crucible of Worlds (which is sort of a finisher against many decks)

Without any Bridge, Chalice, O-Stone, Trini and such. It wouldn’t be that much of a Wishboard, this way.



Where Relic of Progenitus also act as a cantrip fetchable by Karn when you”re short on targets. I would definitely run a sixth piece of Grave hate while Hogaak is still legal, probably instead of the Ghost Quarter.



This would be the list with Karn, for reference.

Brace, brace.

Fact or Fiction is coming!

I’m not sure if you would want most of your threats to depend on a resolved Karn. It gives you even less threat density and actually putting a threat on the board requires either loads of mana or two consecutive turns without getting disrupted/countered. You can fetch what suits the situation best, but have a very limited follow-up once your threat gets answered since it‘s all one-ofs and needs Academy Ruins to retrieve cards.

Perhaps that‘s painting a black picture, as the above probably fits for all toolbox-versions of U Tron. If I may suggest, I would go with 1-2 Karn and a more or less classic sideboard with it’s selection of answers + Mycosynth Lattice!

Quote from SwissRolls »

Hypothetical lists*

This is something I would try from my current list as a way to try out Karn.

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Lands (25) 4 Urza's Mine 4 Urza's Power Plant 4 Urza's Tower 6 Island 1 Tolaria West 2 Field of Ruin 1 Academy Ruins 3 River Of Tears Creatures (9) 4 Walking Ballista 1 Snapcaster Mage 2 Wurmcoil Engine 2 Thought-Knot Seer	Planeswalkers (3) 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon 2 Karn, The Great Creator Spells (18) 4 Condescend 3 Repeal 3 Remand 3 Dismember 1 Cyclonic Rift 4 Thirst For Knowledge Artifacts(5) 4 Expedition Map 1 Mindslaver	SideBoard: 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Tormod's Crypt 3 Surgical Extraction 2 Negate 4 Spatial Contortion 1 Oblivion Stone 1 Mindslaver 1 Mycosynth Lattice 1 Wurmcoil engine

I don't know if we can afford to go so low on wincons in the main and hope we draw the Karn (even if it is a 4 of) to win the game. Although I guess if set up more similar to yours, we could try to mimic UW control with basically no win cons besides the walkers. Maybe something like:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Lands (25) 4 Urza's Mine 4 Urza's Power Plant 4 Urza's Tower 6 Island 3 River Of Tears 1 Academy Ruins 1 Field of Ruin 1 Tectonic Edge 1 Tolaria West Creatures (2) 2 Snapcaster Mage Planeswalkers (6) 4 Karn, The Great Creator 2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon	Spells (22) 4 Condescend 1 Spell Snare 3 Repeal 3 Remand 3 Dismember 3 spatial contortion 1 Cyclonic Rift 4 Thirst For Knowledge Artifacts(5) 4 Expedition Map 1 Mindslaver	SideBoard: 1 Engineered Explosives 2 Walking Ballista 2 Tormod's Crypt 2 Surgical Extraction 1 Pithing Needle 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 Oblivion Stone 1 Mindslaver 1 Mycosynth Lattice 1 Wurmcoil Engine 1 Platinum Angel 1 Sundering Titan

I very much like the consistency have 3s and 4s in our deck gives. This also allows us to have that tutor package a lot of us really love about this deck. There perhaps should be some number of Chalice of the Void in the main but its always 50/50 whether its good in any given matchup in modern.

With the Karn, Lattice combo as long as the opponent doesn't already have creatures out we win the game so this is definitely a strong potential wincon.

That's one thing I was worried about when I made the list, that we would be making a gimped version of U/W control with an overall lower card quality.

I would probably only board in Scavenging Ooze against Control; possibly Assassin's Trophy, but I don't have any in Elves anyway. I did side in Shaper's Sanctuary, but that was against Grixis or Jeskai. UW is different in my opinion.

Quote from ketoglutarate »

would you mind sharing your list?

I could play 4 Cavern of Souls. The whole deck is foil although I am using them in another deck, I could switch it over. I just don't think that it is necessary. Our opponent literally just wants to counter CoCo or Lead the Stampede (or a SB card like Shaper's Sanctuary), so for them to leave in Countermagic or counter an Elf in game 1 is pretty bad for them usually.

*Vs. UW Control, I found that the strategy is mostly to go all out and try to dodge turn 2, 3, or 4 Terminus. If you have a hand that can rebuild with Lead the Stampede or Collected Company, do that route. But you need to put massive pressure on their life total so that it's Miracle Terminus (or something like Path X 2, Snap X Path X 2) or die. My win percentage went up when I realized this. There's really no point in saving a 2/2 and a 1/1 for after a Terminus, of course in very niche situations (like your opponent is at 1 or 2 life).

This adds nothing to the discussion. Just wanted to show off how my paper version of Blue Tron is progressing.

Quote from kharniverous »

This thread is disappointing.. =( all im gonna say

Agree, but what is there to discuss? No individual seems to have put up any kind of results at larger tournaments recently. There doesn't appear to be anything new that has entered the card pool. Every idea relating to the existing card pool has been discussed, argued, and is now almost instantly quashed by the more seasoned players of the deck. Additionally, there's been a schism in the overall deck construction, with 1 side being "Toolbox" (e.g., 1 of silver bullets like Titan, Angel, etc.) and non-toolbox (e.g., multiple Ballistas and Wurmcoils).

What is there to discuss? It seems like the only thing to argue about is which build is "correct", but, again, nobody's putting up big tournament results, so then it's a matter of preference. The only thing to really discuss is, can the deck even compete in this meta?

Please, yes! I'm always looking for more data for the spreadsheet. I prefer Youtube, as it's easier to skim for data because my time for watching is limited. It's also easiest when each match is a different video, like I have on my Youtube channel. But yeah, that would be awesome!