Coming from UW / Esper, I saw Wafo-Tapa having a 5-0 on MTGO and it was a sweet list. Might be coming back to Jeskai (left last Summer the deck). I'd only need to pick up 2 Tarn and 1 Vents. I'm guessing that my Burn matchup would improve when compared to Esper, but my combo matchup would be worse I guess.
I think your fairly on the money there. But the loss of discard is partly mitigated by the faster closing speed against combo, especially if you main deck Vendilion Clique.
I'm more and more thinking about building it again, having 2 Clique in the sideboard at least. I'm wondering also what I could have to help : 2 Dispel and 2 Surgical Extraction most probably?
Surgical isn't great in Jeskai like it is in UBx, but certainly has merit. Dispel, Runed Halo are great against many combo decks, and pressure.
MrCafouillette is Guillaume Wafo-Tapa, right? Sure looks like his type of list. Think Twice is........ a little bit dated.
His and Nikolich's latest lists look like Jeskai purists lists. High burn counts, singleton wincon cards (Secure the Wastes for Ben, Ajani for Guillaume). I prefer more wincons, but these type of players literally define their role in piloting the archetype as 'play each turn with the aim of not losing, and then win later when your opponent has no cards and you have a full grip'. And they do have the records to back it up.
Bolt, Snap, Bolt, it's still the business apparently!
Personally, I need more cards in my 60 that win me the game, as I am not as good at not losing as these guys.
Edit; I now see the 2 Cliques in the above list and that makes me happy. Nikolich's list is pure snap bolt secure (+colonnade) though. Have to be a very, very good player to consistently win with that I think.
Hello! New Ponza player here, having previously played WB Eldrazi Taxes. I've been able to pick up a lot of the core for this deck, but there's still some piece I am missing/having a hard time getting my hands on at my LGS or via trades (Tireless Trackers, Inferno Titans, and Windswept Heaths - holding off on Birds until I find one that is not HP quality). Below is a copy of my current MB - do you think this is worth playing as is or should I hold off until I get the above threats and utility?
The Jadelight Rangers make me want to add in Goblin Dark-Dwellers to be able to pitch my S/M Rains and flashback them with the ETB.
Your list is very playable even without the optimal cards. You have good replacements for Tracker and Titan in Glorybringer and Jadelight Ranger - these two are already fringe selections for Ponza and are sometimes run as 1-ofs anyway!
The birds are actually the most painful loss. Double Red on t2 for molten rain is very occasionally awkward, and while birds help solve this, llanowar elves would not.
By the way, for those of you who may not have picked up on this already, if your Jund opponent casts BBE and cascades into Liliana, Lili will be on the stack above BBE. When Lili resolves, BBE will still be on the stack, your opponent will not be able to tick up, and you will receive priority. You can then bolt Lili straight away. This and Bob are good enough reasons to keep bolts against Jund.
Chandra is your best win con against control and non-BBE GBx decks (Abzan/Rock). Against Jund she has always been strong, but less so now that they run 4 Bolts and 4 BBE.
In almost every other match up she is always relevant in some way. She is least useful (but still fine) in hyper aggressive match-ups with creature lands. Affinity, new Zoo, Merfolk etc. But with her +1 redirect rule change she will become SLIGHTLY, although noticeably worse.
Does anyone think Damping Sphere will replace Trinisphere in the sideboard?
Well it's a strict upgrade to Thorn of Amethyst, which saw marginal play because it decent against storm without completely killing cascades off of BBE.
The reality is Trinisphere is so much better against storm, burn and other Jank like hollow one and Ironworks, that the cost of nerfing BBE is not a great one. I'd rather have Trini any day.
The half of the card that hits big mana is not needed by our deck.
Surprise? This deck exists for 2 years almost with no changes, I think everyone at least have heard about it.
Don't worry mate I know the deck has been around for a while... I played the Archetype when it was called R/G land destruction, I remember buying my full playset of Avalanche Riders and Argothian Wurms when they were first released in Urza Block!
Yes Ponza has existed in modern for a while. But a 6 months ago if you led with Arbor Elf most people thought a) WTF? Or B) Tooth and Nail.
It is only in the last say 2 months that you would sit down at a competative modern event and seriously look at your game 1 hand and say 'How weak am I to Stone Rain?'
Hi guys! what do you think of the absence of Stormbreath Dragon in this two last winning lists??? I played some games and it is such a good win condition for ponza deck!
This is one that I debated for a long time once BBE was un-banned. I love Stormbreath to death. I have won so many games with the thing that it had become somewhat synonymous for me to the Archetype.
Firstly Path to Exile could have been perceived by the deckbuilders as less played or less of a problem. I'm not sure I would agree with that, but it's a possible reason. Then there are some inherent qualities about the card itself.
Stormys' weaknesses are on defense. A 4/4 Flying Pro White creature on block duty when your life total is under threat is ... fine. But for 5 mana the effect it has when behind or precarious on board presence is usually negligible. At least Titan lets you Arc Lightning some dudes (not to mention being 6/6).
Sure you may remember that moment where Stormy hero-blocks a Mantis Riser, but Stormy is only worth the investment if you can get him into the red zone EVERY turn.
This used not to be much of an issue for a build like Monster Ponza, since you usually had a great, wide board presence which your Dragon could fly straight over for the win. Now we play 3/2 creature for 4 mana that may or may not affect the board in a meaningful way from behind. We used to run a combination of Huntmaster, Colossus, P&K, Thrun, Baloth, etc. All of them defensive powerhouses in respective match-ups. We couuld AFFORD to simply let dragon do his thing.
BBE and Stormbreath are a weak defensive unit without strong support. So if, in the deckbuilding process you decide this liability affects too many games, you have two paths to take.
A) Drop Stormbreath
B) Re-tune main-deck to optimise Stormbreath (set him free for maximum beat downs)
Recent lists have simply been adopting approach A. This is the most obvious, or simple way to go.
The dragon HAS got synergy with the word HASTE though. Both BBE and Stormy threaten life totals quickly. And considering the Dragons raw power there has to be a build that lets Stormy do his thing with freedom again. I still run 1, and it's still been frickin Bae. But I've been noticing myself wishing for it less and less as a topdeck.
TLDR: A perception that path is less prevalent. Stormbreath is a weak defensive investment for 5 mana, and does not affect the board enough from behind. This, allied to the loss of our resilient 4-drops to accommodate BBE.
I understand your points. Those lists dropped the 2 dragons for a third titan and Pia and Kiran. Does this card worth the main deck spot? I started my list from the SCG one adding 2 dragons and an additional coursier (love this deck with BBE) dropping 1 titan and the two PKN.
P&K is absolutely worth a spot. She affects almost every board state she is played onto. She also has great synergy with the rest of the deck, most notably Tireless Tracker and Nissa, Voice of Zendikar.
Problem is that all the cards you name are great - courser, p&k, Stormbreath, titan. We all probably have different opinions on which of those is "un-droppable". Run with what you feel, take notes for the next (x) amount of matches, tune if you feel you need to. The most important part is to clearly realise what the strengths and weaknesses of each card.
P&K gives you 3 bodies, flying blockers, evasive attackers and a 4-power clock, all while allowing you to interact with the board and turn your clues into Shocks. It might also be worth noting how much better Nissa VoZ is with P&K.
She is play that guarantees a certain return on imvestment and relevance. Low variance, value AGAINST removal, value AS A SOURCE of removal, and a clock!
I don't blame you for running 2 Courser, or wanting 3 titans. Or running 2 Stormbreath. If I could run 4 of each I would.
For what it's worth, my current list.
Ponza (R/G): BBE / 8 Rain
Maindeck (60)
4 Arbor Elf
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Inferno Titan
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
8 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Slagstorm
1 Shatterstorm
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Trinisphere
1 Choke
Hi guys! what do you think of the absence of Stormbreath Dragon in this two last winning lists??? I played some games and it is such a good win condition for ponza deck!
This is one that I debated for a long time once BBE was un-banned. I love Stormbreath to death. I have won so many games with the thing that it had become somewhat synonymous for me to the Archetype.
Firstly Path to Exile could have been perceived by the deckbuilders as less played or less of a problem. I'm not sure I would agree with that, but it's a possible reason. Then there are some inherent qualities about the card itself.
Stormys' weaknesses are on defense. A 4/4 Flying Pro White creature on block duty when your life total is under threat is ... fine. But for 5 mana the effect it has when behind or precarious on board presence is usually negligible. At least Titan lets you Arc Lightning some dudes (not to mention being 6/6).
Sure you may remember that moment where Stormy hero-blocks a Mantis Riser, but Stormy is only worth the investment if you can get him into the red zone EVERY turn.
This used not to be much of an issue for a build like Monster Ponza, since you usually had a great, wide board presence which your Dragon could fly straight over for the win. Now we play 3/2 creature for 4 mana that may or may not affect the board in a meaningful way from behind. We used to run a combination of Huntmaster, Colossus, P&K, Thrun, Baloth, etc. All of them defensive powerhouses in respective match-ups. We couuld AFFORD to simply let dragon do his thing.
BBE and Stormbreath are a weak defensive unit without strong support. So if, in the deckbuilding process you decide this liability affects too many games, you have two paths to take.
A) Drop Stormbreath
B) Re-tune main-deck to optimise Stormbreath (set him free for maximum beat downs)
Recent lists have simply been adopting approach A. This is the most obvious, or simple way to go.
The dragon HAS got synergy with the word HASTE though. Both BBE and Stormy threaten life totals quickly. And considering the Dragons raw power there has to be a build that lets Stormy do his thing with freedom again. I still run 1, and it's still been frickin Bae. But I've been noticing myself wishing for it less and less as a topdeck.
TLDR: A perception that path is less prevalent. Stormbreath is a weak defensive investment for 5 mana, and does not affect the board enough from behind. This, allied to the loss of our resilient 4-drops to accommodate BBE.
1
Surgical isn't great in Jeskai like it is in UBx, but certainly has merit. Dispel, Runed Halo are great against many combo decks, and pressure.
1
His and Nikolich's latest lists look like Jeskai purists lists. High burn counts, singleton wincon cards (Secure the Wastes for Ben, Ajani for Guillaume). I prefer more wincons, but these type of players literally define their role in piloting the archetype as 'play each turn with the aim of not losing, and then win later when your opponent has no cards and you have a full grip'. And they do have the records to back it up.
Bolt, Snap, Bolt, it's still the business apparently!
Personally, I need more cards in my 60 that win me the game, as I am not as good at not losing as these guys.
Edit; I now see the 2 Cliques in the above list and that makes me happy. Nikolich's list is pure snap bolt secure (+colonnade) though. Have to be a very, very good player to consistently win with that I think.
1
Your list is very playable even without the optimal cards. You have good replacements for Tracker and Titan in Glorybringer and Jadelight Ranger - these two are already fringe selections for Ponza and are sometimes run as 1-ofs anyway!
The birds are actually the most painful loss. Double Red on t2 for molten rain is very occasionally awkward, and while birds help solve this, llanowar elves would not.
1
This is also the case with BBE into Nissa, VoZ.
1
Rule change.
1
In almost every other match up she is always relevant in some way. She is least useful (but still fine) in hyper aggressive match-ups with creature lands. Affinity, new Zoo, Merfolk etc. But with her +1 redirect rule change she will become SLIGHTLY, although noticeably worse.
1
Well it's a strict upgrade to Thorn of Amethyst, which saw marginal play because it decent against storm without completely killing cascades off of BBE.
The reality is Trinisphere is so much better against storm, burn and other Jank like hollow one and Ironworks, that the cost of nerfing BBE is not a great one. I'd rather have Trini any day.
The half of the card that hits big mana is not needed by our deck.
1
Don't worry mate I know the deck has been around for a while... I played the Archetype when it was called R/G land destruction, I remember buying my full playset of Avalanche Riders and Argothian Wurms when they were first released in Urza Block!
Yes Ponza has existed in modern for a while. But a 6 months ago if you led with Arbor Elf most people thought a) WTF? Or B) Tooth and Nail.
It is only in the last say 2 months that you would sit down at a competative modern event and seriously look at your game 1 hand and say 'How weak am I to Stone Rain?'
Now the question is legit.
1
P&K is absolutely worth a spot. She affects almost every board state she is played onto. She also has great synergy with the rest of the deck, most notably Tireless Tracker and Nissa, Voice of Zendikar.
Problem is that all the cards you name are great - courser, p&k, Stormbreath, titan. We all probably have different opinions on which of those is "un-droppable". Run with what you feel, take notes for the next (x) amount of matches, tune if you feel you need to. The most important part is to clearly realise what the strengths and weaknesses of each card.
P&K gives you 3 bodies, flying blockers, evasive attackers and a 4-power clock, all while allowing you to interact with the board and turn your clues into Shocks. It might also be worth noting how much better Nissa VoZ is with P&K.
She is play that guarantees a certain return on imvestment and relevance. Low variance, value AGAINST removal, value AS A SOURCE of removal, and a clock!
I don't blame you for running 2 Courser, or wanting 3 titans. Or running 2 Stormbreath. If I could run 4 of each I would.
For what it's worth, my current list.
Ponza (R/G): BBE / 8 Rain
Maindeck (60)
4 Arbor Elf
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Inferno Titan
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
8 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Slagstorm
1 Shatterstorm
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Trinisphere
1 Choke
Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/e63594cf-d8b8-480f-9903-5ac1ca61f49f
2
This is one that I debated for a long time once BBE was un-banned. I love Stormbreath to death. I have won so many games with the thing that it had become somewhat synonymous for me to the Archetype.
Firstly Path to Exile could have been perceived by the deckbuilders as less played or less of a problem. I'm not sure I would agree with that, but it's a possible reason. Then there are some inherent qualities about the card itself.
Stormys' weaknesses are on defense. A 4/4 Flying Pro White creature on block duty when your life total is under threat is ... fine. But for 5 mana the effect it has when behind or precarious on board presence is usually negligible. At least Titan lets you Arc Lightning some dudes (not to mention being 6/6).
Sure you may remember that moment where Stormy hero-blocks a Mantis Riser, but Stormy is only worth the investment if you can get him into the red zone EVERY turn.
This used not to be much of an issue for a build like Monster Ponza, since you usually had a great, wide board presence which your Dragon could fly straight over for the win. Now we play 3/2 creature for 4 mana that may or may not affect the board in a meaningful way from behind. We used to run a combination of Huntmaster, Colossus, P&K, Thrun, Baloth, etc. All of them defensive powerhouses in respective match-ups. We couuld AFFORD to simply let dragon do his thing.
BBE and Stormbreath are a weak defensive unit without strong support. So if, in the deckbuilding process you decide this liability affects too many games, you have two paths to take.
A) Drop Stormbreath
B) Re-tune main-deck to optimise Stormbreath (set him free for maximum beat downs)
Recent lists have simply been adopting approach A. This is the most obvious, or simple way to go.
The dragon HAS got synergy with the word HASTE though. Both BBE and Stormy threaten life totals quickly. And considering the Dragons raw power there has to be a build that lets Stormy do his thing with freedom again. I still run 1, and it's still been frickin Bae. But I've been noticing myself wishing for it less and less as a topdeck.
TLDR: A perception that path is less prevalent. Stormbreath is a weak defensive investment for 5 mana, and does not affect the board enough from behind. This, allied to the loss of our resilient 4-drops to accommodate BBE.