Hi guys! Just picked up Jeskai recently and have been playing about a month now. I've been running 2 Rest in Peace in the sideboard as my graveyard hate, but I'm a bit torn, I feel like the correct number might be 0-2 and that Relic of Progenitus might be better. Against things like dredge it's of course great and in matchups like GDS and Grixis control it hurts your opponent more than you, but it still makes Logic Knot and Snapcaster Mage awkward. Wanted to hear your thoughts on it!
I don't like RiP in Jeskai right now, especially in lists with 4x snap, more than 1 logic knot, and Search for Azcanta. If you're not on Azcanta and run 1 or fewer logic knots then it's powerful enough to warrant a spot in the right meta.
Relic is better for Jeskai usually.
Against Grixis (shadow) we don't really need grave hate as we have all the tools already to beat them.
If dredge is the concern then it's better to construct a sideboard that works for the wider meta and splashes on to dredge - Anger of the Gods, Settle the Wreckage, Izzet Staticaster, Celestial Purge, Detention Sphere, Runed Halo can all do work for you against dredge while not diluting your sideboard to the wider meta and not threatening your own graveyard. The dredge MU will still not be great but your not a dog to it at least.
Quick Question: I miss Secure the Wastes (1-off Maindeck) and Runed Halo (2-off,SB) for a Paper Event tomorrow. What would be some good substitutions given a wide open Meta with Azcanta Control (Nicolich List)?
I thought about 1 Geist or an other PW main, because I dont want to turn on their spot removal and still have a good finisher like Secure. SB Slots could be used with Disdainful Stroke or Rejection. Opinions?
There is no real replacement for secure the wastes... instant speed finishers that go wide and boast its efficiency and flexibility are rare to to find. It is also a defensive tool. 1 geist MD is fine, though you won't find it with Azcanta. Off the top of my head I'm struggling to think of an instant speed finishers worth playing outside of snap/hulk/secure. MD Clique might be worth a thought.
You could reconfigure your PW and wincon set to include a Gideon package, or a gideon/elspeth/Geist mix, but this changes a lot of deck dynamics. This will give you greater defense from your PWs as well as more on board power at the cost of utility from Secure, Nahiri, and Ajani.
Similar story with Runed Halo but at least one can dissect which MU's you'll need to find a SB replacement with. Halo is so universally applicable that it's hard. It usually comes in for Combo or decks that have specific cards you have trouble with. Or threat light decks such as Shadow.
I think Shadow, Valakut, Storm are the ones I find it a Haymaker answer in (out of T1). Leyline of Sanctity can do good work in all these MU's (see Bearscapes' post recently), or if Valakut is a specific problem that you need to address then Shadow of Doubt is bonkers against them. Geist happens to be also very good vs. GDS and Valakut.
I do not believe Azor, the Lawbringer has a place outside of EDH.
Ajani locking down cavern of souls Vs. E tron was a sweet move TheAller! I can't let go of the helix man in my Control List just because he always has these type of interactions come up! I do play 1x Nahiri as well.
Earlier iterations lacked any way to regain card advantage after setting up a LD/Moon lock, so if the opponent could maneuver around the mana denial the Ponza player struggled to retain momentum. Chandra, Tracker, and Courses offer both mana sinks and CA on bodies that also win games (less so for courser, but the life gain is real).
Mana sinks are also important. Pia and Kiran Nalar, chameleon colossus, stormbreath Dragon, in addition to tracker and Chandra let you land a single threat and amplify it's value if variance hides the rest of your threats from the top of your deck.
Chandra, Courser, and Tracker are huge consistency engines for the deck, and if you land a courser alongside either of the others after some regular land disruption, it's hard to lose.
Trackers also give an alternative curve from the standard dork into moon/rain. You can go dork into tracker into turn 3 moss and end the turn with 2 clues. Or you can use tracker as a pseudo 4 drop by playing it turn 3 after a moon/rain and playing land for turn to get a clue. Having multiple on-curve lines assists consistency.
P&K shores up some pretty weak MU's as well. And I still love me some inferno titan!
I also feel like I should qualify my belief that Control is favoured vs. Tempo in the Jeskai Tempo/Control mirror at the moment. My laptop recently broke and I'm on my phone so apologies for brevity and formatting.
A) queller is weak vs. Lightning Bolt.
B) Geist is weak vs. Verdict and Snap-block.
C) Search for Azcanta. Tempo plays very little land hate. If it resolves it is almost like a clock, eliminating the possibility of winning via plan (2)...
Tempo's main back up plans (other than 'tempo' are either to (1) go aggro and expend resources to quickly reduce the opponents life total, or (2) to attempt to stifle the opponents game plan and eventually accrue game-wining card advantage through snapcaster and cryptic command (and Electrolyze).
Plan (1) is a plan that involves burning your opponent while getting in with Snap, queller and Geist. Given that 2 of these cards have significant weaknesses against Jeskai Control I usually find plan (1) unreliable at best. Jeskai is not built to deal 20 spell damage by turn 4. We usually need to get into the red zone to close a game quickly. Plan (2) is simply won hands down by Control. Search for Azcanta is a big reason but not the only one, I mean the deck is built for the late game.
Now I would still rather have Geist than not in the MU. And there are other points such as the fact Queller can exile Supreme Verdict. Also, it is possible to 'stumble' as the control player, and as a tempo player sometimes you just draw enough burn over the course of the first 10 turns. This is a high skill MU, and MTG is a variable game, so stumbles will happen, amd it's up to the tempo player to identify them to win the game.
@NoobKing Yeah I saw your list has only 1 6-drop if I'm not mistaken. I run 2 inferno titans and 1x Chandra, Flamecaller. I might reduce this to 1 of each and slot in Garruk, Primal Hunter instead, and focus on more 5 drops like yourself.
I still have yet to see an argument that convinces me Wildspeaker is a bad card for the deck though, and if I we're running a go-wide build I think I would put it back in. Compared to Chandra ToD and Garruk PH, yes, inferior. But compared to other flex 4 drops? Still not seeing the arguments. I must reiterate that I do not intend to drop any Chandras I bleed fire, Stormbae and Chandrabae 4 life!
Can somebody please outline why Garruk Wildspeaker is considered "bad"? In the early days while building the deck I used him as a budget placeholder for Chandra, and he always did good things, from creating crazy turns where you have enough mana to stormbreath+monstrous or giving a team of elves and birds overrun.
Just thought about him again since the topic of birds being bad topdecks was mentioned.
Hola my jeskai peeps. After literally, over a year I'm finally back to going to TNM. I went last Tuesday
Results: 2-1. I wanted to play my last round but my opp had to leave early so I was nice and we intentionally drew the last one, and I just made him hand over his participation pack lol
2-0 Tron
G1
I feel a lot better about this match up since I'm running logic knot + Geist. First game went smoothly. Great starting hand. Helix t2 into geist t3 im on the play. I'm waiting him to slam something big since he's hit tron on t3, but he doesn't hit anythin, just a bunch of the filter star/sphere's. I leave mana open for my cryptic command, he trys to play ugin I counter and draw. Ride a Celestial colonnade to victory after he wipes my geist with oblivion stone, the look on his face when he reads NONland permanents... fantastic lol
Still not sure how to sideboard since I came back after 13+ months. But
-2 helix
-2 spell snare
-1 spell queller
+2 pia and kira
+2 disdainful stroke
+1 Vendilon clique
G2
Starts out pretty much the same, t3 he plays a Wurmcoil Engine, and I throw out a Snapcaster, just to get my beats started early. I path his wurm, and beat. Hold up some counter magic. I spell queller an ancient stirrings, he isn't drawing anything too powerful. I hold up more counter magic this turn, beats with snap and queller. I draw a pia and kiran nalaar but not enough red mana... awkward... lol he tries to fatal push my spelll queller, i cryptic command. Next turn i beat and hold up another queller and logic knot. HE goes for a stirrings, i queller it. He plays oblivion stone, and i logic knot for 5, if he pays, he is short for mana to crack it, so i get him good Smile
prolly a few turns i forgot but you get the basic gameplay lol
2-0 to start!
2-0 Boggles
This is a good friend of mine, so i laughed because i knew the only way i was going to win is if he drew terrible, at least the first game anyways. I have sideboard tech (a little) for it G2/3.
G1
He drew terrible lolol He got stuck on 1 land, and a dryad arbor. I killed the arbor quickly and was able to counter everything relevant which was great. After a spell snare hit a timely Silhana Ledgewalker i drew geist the next turn and was able to ride it to victory, especially after I cryptic command his leyline back to his hand. BURN BABY BURN. WHOOP!
-2 lightning Helix
-2 Path to Exile (prolly should have been all 4)
-1 geist i think...
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Negate
+2 Pia and Kiran nalaar
+1 Wear / Tear
G2
He has a better start. He was slow playing his enchantments due to me leaving mana open for counter spells, I let him play a few minor ones, path a kor spiritdancer and bolt a gaddock teeg and countered the big ones like rancor and I wear / tear his spider umbra so the angel on geist can get through. Then I just played another one after he blocks and kills the first one. Cryptic the team a couple times and I get in with lethal with a celestial colonnade, and a burn spell.
2-0
Blue Moon
1-2, A freaking slug fest. blue moon is always a difficult match for me personally. i did not take notes as we would have never finished the round lol
Keranos, god of storms + Blood Moon + Search for Azcanta is a crazy good combo when I can't play spells... lol I squeezed in a geist before he blood moon on the 2nd game and got there. 3rd game i got ooober f'ed on fetches and wasn't able to fetch basics in time before he landed 2 blood moons... echoing truth is a possibility here lol
I have been speaking personally to Harlan Firer about his deck and it's been cool to talk about the in's and out's of his deck (which is the one im using currently).
I've been advised to take out mystic gate, and put back in my basic mountain by him as well. What do you guys think? Sorry about my slopy note taking. It will get better once I get back into the hang of things.
Hello Ruther and welcome back to the fold! Your list looks pretty stock apart from your mana base which I have to agree with Firer on. Mystic Gate is a pet land of mine, it's very good, but in a 3-colour deck it is often more trouble than it's worth. I often run one in a 25-land Jeskai Control or planeswalker build with main-deck gideons and verdicts, or 3-6 WW cards, but in a 23/24 land geist/queller list with no main-deck double-white, you will find it stunts your opening mana sequencing more than is comfortable. In addition, it can be an awkward land to use if your game-plan revolves around casting multiple 1CMC or 2CMC spells, since it FORCES 2 tapped lands to use. I would take it out and replace it with a 2nd Hallowed Fountain.
I see you are running 2 basic plains rather than a single mountain and single plains. This is understandable if you want to cast WW through a blood moon, but from my experience having access to T1 un-shocked lightning bolt off a scalding tarn is invaluable against burn and aggro, and this comes up more in my meta than say Skred or Ponza, where we need to deal with fatties or a big board through a moon.
Ajani is nice if you want to add some percentage against burn on top of your lategame bombs but is kind of meh otherwise, I don't think he is worth it in the side. Sunny Elspeth is gg against any grind deck but is so hard to resolve in blue matchups it is almost exclusively an anti-BGx card (with a nod to eldrazi I suppose). Elspeth KE has cool synergy with Geist but is otherwise completely overshadowed by Gideon AoZ. Gideon AoZ and jace AoT are my bombs of choice because of this
I suspect Ajani Vengeant sees play also because of his ability to lock a big dude, be it an Eldrazi or a Prime Time. It's a sweet ability, but not enough to convince me to play him, let alone in the maindeck (people usually play him maindeck).
You guys have touched on some reasons why Ajani Vengeant is just a really solid walker in so many non-combo MU's. His presence is Jeskai Draw-Go / Control lists can be explained by how his +1 plays out against creature threats. It fulfills a similar role to Gideon of the Trials, forcing an over-extension into a board wipe. This is one reason why he is main-decked in Draw-G0 / Control lists. But his +1 is so much more versatile - starving an opponent of a land can sometimes time walk them multiple times!
He is actually amazing Vs. GDS, where his -2 is often just the extra reach you need to close out a game in time. He's worthwhile against e-Tron (I'm looking at you, Reality Smasher), and most decks that are chasing your life total aggressively.
His ultimate is one of the most satisfying, and also one of the most sure, ways to win a game.
Hi, played this list yesterday night in a small tournament.
I've lost in top8 vs Storm
In G1 i had a t3 geist followed by some burn spells.
My sideboarding choices : -1 cryptic command -2 path to exile -2 electrolyze +2 relics +2 dispel +1 vendilion
In G2 i faced 8 goblins in t3/t4.
In G3 i kept 2 dispel + 1 logic knot + 4 lands, i was unsure about this hand, i think we need at least a threat to drop.
I drew a spell queller and i tried to keep my opponent at bay countering his mana acceleration hoping to draw something else but i saw only lands and lost to 8 goblins again. I was somehow disappointed by the result and started to think i took a bad decision. Would you keep that hand or not?
I would have mulled that hand, your right, you ideally want an early threat and a hate piece, or at least one of the two. 4 lands is a bit flooded with no threat, to boot. Planning to logic knot their mana reducer and then sit on 2 dispels is kind of like praying to the gods of your topdeck.
I think the main place to start here is your sideboard. Firstly, I would have brought in your singleton Supreme Verdict. You are soft to lingering souls and tokens in general. Supreme Verdict is effective but also the most awkward of answers, and you're only playing the 1 copy. I would start by trying to fit in one of Engineered Explosives, Izzet Staticaster or another Verdict. Another option is Detention Sphere. Your singletons of Stony Silence or Celestial Purge could be the possible cuts to make room here.
This is all assuming you want to keep your Ancestral Vision package in the board. An ancestral visions package in the sideboard is fine if you are playing control or BGx in 50% of your games, but this will limit your sideboard in other ways.
On another note, I would drop one cantrip and go up one land in your main-deck. 22 may work for you, but I would feel uncomfortable.
In any case, don't forget to account for goblins when facing storm!
I went back to the classic list with only 4 serum vision and no Opt and I think it is really the best combination! No instant speed will compensate the 3 cards that SV allows to see! I also played only 3 Celestial Colonnade because I really do not want to find that card in my opening hands, everytime I drew it I had problems, especially playing against aggro decks!
I ended up on 4 serum visions and 2 opt with my Geist/Queller list. Serum visions seems objectively more powerful whereas Opt is better in only some scenarios. However, opt does have places where it feels better than SV still so I like running both!
I think that's a huge mistake Rick, you're cutting an evasive threat. You really have to be careful with this deck, it's on the edge of being a tempo control deck, cuts like those makes the deck a slower, bad control deck.
I do not think that 3 colonnades is a mistake. It is perfectly acceptable. In fact, all the highly placing Jeskai Control (not geist) lists lately have been running 3, so to think that a geist list that values untapped lands and runs more creature threats NEEDS 4 without room for change is actually the mistake.
1
I don't like RiP in Jeskai right now, especially in lists with 4x snap, more than 1 logic knot, and Search for Azcanta. If you're not on Azcanta and run 1 or fewer logic knots then it's powerful enough to warrant a spot in the right meta.
Relic is better for Jeskai usually.
Against Grixis (shadow) we don't really need grave hate as we have all the tools already to beat them.
If dredge is the concern then it's better to construct a sideboard that works for the wider meta and splashes on to dredge - Anger of the Gods, Settle the Wreckage, Izzet Staticaster, Celestial Purge, Detention Sphere, Runed Halo can all do work for you against dredge while not diluting your sideboard to the wider meta and not threatening your own graveyard. The dredge MU will still not be great but your not a dog to it at least.
1
There is no real replacement for secure the wastes... instant speed finishers that go wide and boast its efficiency and flexibility are rare to to find. It is also a defensive tool. 1 geist MD is fine, though you won't find it with Azcanta. Off the top of my head I'm struggling to think of an instant speed finishers worth playing outside of snap/hulk/secure. MD Clique might be worth a thought.
You could reconfigure your PW and wincon set to include a Gideon package, or a gideon/elspeth/Geist mix, but this changes a lot of deck dynamics. This will give you greater defense from your PWs as well as more on board power at the cost of utility from Secure, Nahiri, and Ajani.
Similar story with Runed Halo but at least one can dissect which MU's you'll need to find a SB replacement with. Halo is so universally applicable that it's hard. It usually comes in for Combo or decks that have specific cards you have trouble with. Or threat light decks such as Shadow.
I think Shadow, Valakut, Storm are the ones I find it a Haymaker answer in (out of T1). Leyline of Sanctity can do good work in all these MU's (see Bearscapes' post recently), or if Valakut is a specific problem that you need to address then Shadow of Doubt is bonkers against them. Geist happens to be also very good vs. GDS and Valakut.
1
Ajani locking down cavern of souls Vs. E tron was a sweet move TheAller! I can't let go of the helix man in my Control List just because he always has these type of interactions come up! I do play 1x Nahiri as well.
1
Earlier iterations lacked any way to regain card advantage after setting up a LD/Moon lock, so if the opponent could maneuver around the mana denial the Ponza player struggled to retain momentum. Chandra, Tracker, and Courses offer both mana sinks and CA on bodies that also win games (less so for courser, but the life gain is real).
Mana sinks are also important. Pia and Kiran Nalar, chameleon colossus, stormbreath Dragon, in addition to tracker and Chandra let you land a single threat and amplify it's value if variance hides the rest of your threats from the top of your deck.
Chandra, Courser, and Tracker are huge consistency engines for the deck, and if you land a courser alongside either of the others after some regular land disruption, it's hard to lose.
Trackers also give an alternative curve from the standard dork into moon/rain. You can go dork into tracker into turn 3 moss and end the turn with 2 clues. Or you can use tracker as a pseudo 4 drop by playing it turn 3 after a moon/rain and playing land for turn to get a clue. Having multiple on-curve lines assists consistency.
P&K shores up some pretty weak MU's as well. And I still love me some inferno titan!
2
https://youtu.be/MEUyKMIe07A
I also feel like I should qualify my belief that Control is favoured vs. Tempo in the Jeskai Tempo/Control mirror at the moment. My laptop recently broke and I'm on my phone so apologies for brevity and formatting.
A) queller is weak vs. Lightning Bolt.
B) Geist is weak vs. Verdict and Snap-block.
C) Search for Azcanta. Tempo plays very little land hate. If it resolves it is almost like a clock, eliminating the possibility of winning via plan (2)...
Tempo's main back up plans (other than 'tempo' are either to (1) go aggro and expend resources to quickly reduce the opponents life total, or (2) to attempt to stifle the opponents game plan and eventually accrue game-wining card advantage through snapcaster and cryptic command (and Electrolyze).
Plan (1) is a plan that involves burning your opponent while getting in with Snap, queller and Geist. Given that 2 of these cards have significant weaknesses against Jeskai Control I usually find plan (1) unreliable at best. Jeskai is not built to deal 20 spell damage by turn 4. We usually need to get into the red zone to close a game quickly. Plan (2) is simply won hands down by Control. Search for Azcanta is a big reason but not the only one, I mean the deck is built for the late game.
Now I would still rather have Geist than not in the MU. And there are other points such as the fact Queller can exile Supreme Verdict. Also, it is possible to 'stumble' as the control player, and as a tempo player sometimes you just draw enough burn over the course of the first 10 turns. This is a high skill MU, and MTG is a variable game, so stumbles will happen, amd it's up to the tempo player to identify them to win the game.
All welcome to disagree if desired!
1
I still have yet to see an argument that convinces me Wildspeaker is a bad card for the deck though, and if I we're running a go-wide build I think I would put it back in. Compared to Chandra ToD and Garruk PH, yes, inferior. But compared to other flex 4 drops? Still not seeing the arguments. I must reiterate that I do not intend to drop any Chandras I bleed fire, Stormbae and Chandrabae 4 life!
Good luck for your event NoobKing!
1
Just thought about him again since the topic of birds being bad topdecks was mentioned.
1
Hello Ruther and welcome back to the fold! Your list looks pretty stock apart from your mana base which I have to agree with Firer on. Mystic Gate is a pet land of mine, it's very good, but in a 3-colour deck it is often more trouble than it's worth. I often run one in a 25-land Jeskai Control or planeswalker build with main-deck gideons and verdicts, or 3-6 WW cards, but in a 23/24 land geist/queller list with no main-deck double-white, you will find it stunts your opening mana sequencing more than is comfortable. In addition, it can be an awkward land to use if your game-plan revolves around casting multiple 1CMC or 2CMC spells, since it FORCES 2 tapped lands to use. I would take it out and replace it with a 2nd Hallowed Fountain.
I see you are running 2 basic plains rather than a single mountain and single plains. This is understandable if you want to cast WW through a blood moon, but from my experience having access to T1 un-shocked lightning bolt off a scalding tarn is invaluable against burn and aggro, and this comes up more in my meta than say Skred or Ponza, where we need to deal with fatties or a big board through a moon.
1
I'd forgotten about AOT... yes, he is the beez neez against Abzan!
You guys have touched on some reasons why Ajani Vengeant is just a really solid walker in so many non-combo MU's. His presence is Jeskai Draw-Go / Control lists can be explained by how his +1 plays out against creature threats. It fulfills a similar role to Gideon of the Trials, forcing an over-extension into a board wipe. This is one reason why he is main-decked in Draw-G0 / Control lists. But his +1 is so much more versatile - starving an opponent of a land can sometimes time walk them multiple times!
He is actually amazing Vs. GDS, where his -2 is often just the extra reach you need to close out a game in time. He's worthwhile against e-Tron (I'm looking at you, Reality Smasher), and most decks that are chasing your life total aggressively.
His ultimate is one of the most satisfying, and also one of the most sure, ways to win a game.
I would have mulled that hand, your right, you ideally want an early threat and a hate piece, or at least one of the two. 4 lands is a bit flooded with no threat, to boot. Planning to logic knot their mana reducer and then sit on 2 dispels is kind of like praying to the gods of your topdeck.
I think the main place to start here is your sideboard. Firstly, I would have brought in your singleton Supreme Verdict. You are soft to lingering souls and tokens in general. Supreme Verdict is effective but also the most awkward of answers, and you're only playing the 1 copy. I would start by trying to fit in one of Engineered Explosives, Izzet Staticaster or another Verdict. Another option is Detention Sphere. Your singletons of Stony Silence or Celestial Purge could be the possible cuts to make room here.
This is all assuming you want to keep your Ancestral Vision package in the board. An ancestral visions package in the sideboard is fine if you are playing control or BGx in 50% of your games, but this will limit your sideboard in other ways.
On another note, I would drop one cantrip and go up one land in your main-deck. 22 may work for you, but I would feel uncomfortable.
In any case, don't forget to account for goblins when facing storm!
2
I ended up on 4 serum visions and 2 opt with my Geist/Queller list. Serum visions seems objectively more powerful whereas Opt is better in only some scenarios. However, opt does have places where it feels better than SV still so I like running both!
I do not think that 3 colonnades is a mistake. It is perfectly acceptable. In fact, all the highly placing Jeskai Control (not geist) lists lately have been running 3, so to think that a geist list that values untapped lands and runs more creature threats NEEDS 4 without room for change is actually the mistake.