On the Rejection issue, I think we need to consolidate the debate;
Question: Is it worth running Ceremonious Rejection in the sideboard to combat E-Tron?
Strengths
a) Hits every single E-Tron play apart from T1 Map or Relic while they are on the play and us on the draw
b) Is the most efficient 1 for 1 answer we can possible have for their deck, being a 1 mana spell that counters All is Dust, Planeswalkers, 0-Stones, Walking Ballistas, etc.
Weaknesses
a) is an awkward top-deck to a resolved Chalice of the Void in the corner case in which we are on the draw, we do not have rejection in hand, and they have chalice in their opening hand.
b) Utility is diminished against T1 Map into Cavern of Souls while they are on the play, or opening hand caverns.
If everybody agrees this is the essence of the argument, the rest is just symantics. It's obviously powerful against them but there are some cases where it is an awkward card. Regardless of the percentages either way, it's a high reward card with some risks (lets just say the chance of them finiding a cavern on the play is equaled by the chance the maximum value range of rejection / snap-rejection), and take the middle ground of single-use with no cavern as the median value point of the card.
a) Is Eldrazi Tron is prevalent in the local or current meta?
b) Is Rejections median value point in this MU worth the slot?
c) Does rejection hit other relevant MU's in the current meta?
d) Are there better cards specifically against E-Tron that we could use?
My answers would be;
a) Yes
b) Yes
c) Yes
d) No
So I would run Rejection. It's never dead on the play, and has small chance that it will be dead on the draw to some of their opening hands. I think it's important to run a high number, 3 or 4, since the t1/t2 plays are important ones. Even if one is afraid of cavern, I think it's plausible to board OUT 3 or 4 logic knots for 3 or 4 rejections, so that you keep your dead card count down for cavern, and keep your efficiency high. It's also worth noting that if you run 1 or 2 wear // tear or Engineered Explosives in your sideboard these can be a reliable way to remove chalice of the void x=1.
TLDR;
Rejection is the most efficient and comprehensive answer to E-Tron we can play, but has some awkward scenarios. It's power ranges from rejection / snap-rejection (hyper-efficiency) to a unplayable against chalice and cavern (dead).
There is a high prevalence of of E-Tron in the meta. Even a single cast of Rejection (not counting it's upper power limit and lower limit) is the most efficient thing we can answer E-Tron with, being at 1-mana. Rejection hits other decks like Affinity, Lantern and KCI, and the lack of a better answer to E-Tron specifically means that I feel bad leaving my sideboard without them.
The alternative I think is hope to dodge and use an incidental sideboard, usually a mix of Supreme Verdict, Stony Silence, Disdainful Stroke. But I do believe that the only way to get this MU into positive territory in games 2 and 3 involves Ceremonious Rejection. Good luck dodging E-Tron without it, Firer certainly had some!
I'm in agreement that spell snare isn't a direct answer to Valakut decks, HOWEVER, having a spell snare on the draw for their T2 2-mana ramp is actually very powerful. If they have kept a hand with no 2-mana ramp then they are doing our job for us to be honest so I'm not fussed on what version they run. Heart Expedition and Omen versions have more targets it's true.
Many lists will run Explore on top of the usual Farseek so there is one more target not mentioned yet.
If you wanted to main-deck a sweeper other than Bonfire, then I would definitely go for Sweltering Suns. Out of the board the cycling isn't relevant and Anger is better.
I think that remand is a card that may make a comeback. It seems so good right now because it stops their plans for a turn and keeps you digging into your deck.
Remand is and always has been a great card. I don't know why more Queller lists haven't adopted it!
@Magpie842, I have been playing around with variations on Habikiri's Control list which seems to play similarly greedily to the one you are describing It's a blast. Check out his last 3 deck-lists on MTGTop8 @ http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=habakiri
Wilfred Wafo-Tapa (if I have spelt that correctly) also runs some jeskai builds that go 'larger' with Gearhulk, Sphinx's Revalation, and Desolate Lighthouse main-deck. I believe these are his deck-lists that have posted results most recently, @ http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=MrCafouillette
I run something similar to the Habikiri main-deck but my sideboard is quite different, as I like to run 3 Geist of Saint Traft in the board for match-ups that we have to be the aggressor in. The main-deck is quite slow, but more favoured against all Eldrazi and Shadow variants than any other Jeskai list IMO.
I'd actually forgotten about Vandalblast, great catch! Would be very versatile. I do like the 4 mana spot for Creeping Corrosion. I guess it's a trade-off of versatility vs speed for the sweeper.
There is also Fracturing Gust at 5CMC... but now we're daydreaming.
It sure is an inefficient way to get there if you go from scratch, but I wouldn't be playing the 'tutor and set up the combo' line as the goal, it would merely be;
a) a sideboard card against Land Destruction if ever prevalent in the meta
b) a new line of play after casting a titan
Hey Talgardo thanks for the suggestions! I did board out 1 Amulet, 1 Scout, and 1 Azusa for the Jund match-up but maybe I could more aggressively sideboard in this manner. A problem is my lack of threats out of the sideboard (Nissa is better as a threat vs Control than vs Jund).
The 3 Azusa I am looking to bump up to 4 when I get my hands on another copy (I definately see the argument of 4x as a boon vs. Combo decks).
With the disclaimer that I've never tested Groves, I must admit I've never been 100% sold on the Grove of the Burnwillows plan because it makes it harder to combo (and therefore win) vs the field (outside of Shadow). If we give the field a free pass for shocking and fetching, or we raise an opponent over 20 life, then the fact that our deck can do 16 or 20 damage in one swing becomes much less relevant. T-West is more reliable with Botanical Sanctum, and running Serum Visions makes the combo elements of the deck much, much more consistent than Explore ever will.
Those above are the logical arguments for running Botanical Sanctums over Grove of the Burnwillows.
Another logical one is that I can't afford them and I'm a paper-only player currently, so until I ACTUALLY test them, please defer to those who have tested both builds
If my 2 or 3 stores I play at turn in to GDS and JDS hellholes I might fork out the money for a playset but until then I'm stuck with G/U and Serum Visions
1
Question: Is it worth running Ceremonious Rejection in the sideboard to combat E-Tron?
Strengths
a) Hits every single E-Tron play apart from T1 Map or Relic while they are on the play and us on the draw
b) Is the most efficient 1 for 1 answer we can possible have for their deck, being a 1 mana spell that counters All is Dust, Planeswalkers, 0-Stones, Walking Ballistas, etc.
Weaknesses
a) is an awkward top-deck to a resolved Chalice of the Void in the corner case in which we are on the draw, we do not have rejection in hand, and they have chalice in their opening hand.
b) Utility is diminished against T1 Map into Cavern of Souls while they are on the play, or opening hand caverns.
If everybody agrees this is the essence of the argument, the rest is just symantics. It's obviously powerful against them but there are some cases where it is an awkward card. Regardless of the percentages either way, it's a high reward card with some risks (lets just say the chance of them finiding a cavern on the play is equaled by the chance the maximum value range of rejection / snap-rejection), and take the middle ground of single-use with no cavern as the median value point of the card.
a) Is Eldrazi Tron is prevalent in the local or current meta?
b) Is Rejections median value point in this MU worth the slot?
c) Does rejection hit other relevant MU's in the current meta?
d) Are there better cards specifically against E-Tron that we could use?
My answers would be;
a) Yes
b) Yes
c) Yes
d) No
So I would run Rejection. It's never dead on the play, and has small chance that it will be dead on the draw to some of their opening hands. I think it's important to run a high number, 3 or 4, since the t1/t2 plays are important ones. Even if one is afraid of cavern, I think it's plausible to board OUT 3 or 4 logic knots for 3 or 4 rejections, so that you keep your dead card count down for cavern, and keep your efficiency high. It's also worth noting that if you run 1 or 2 wear // tear or Engineered Explosives in your sideboard these can be a reliable way to remove chalice of the void x=1.
TLDR;
Rejection is the most efficient and comprehensive answer to E-Tron we can play, but has some awkward scenarios. It's power ranges from rejection / snap-rejection (hyper-efficiency) to a unplayable against chalice and cavern (dead).
There is a high prevalence of of E-Tron in the meta. Even a single cast of Rejection (not counting it's upper power limit and lower limit) is the most efficient thing we can answer E-Tron with, being at 1-mana. Rejection hits other decks like Affinity, Lantern and KCI, and the lack of a better answer to E-Tron specifically means that I feel bad leaving my sideboard without them.
The alternative I think is hope to dodge and use an incidental sideboard, usually a mix of Supreme Verdict, Stony Silence, Disdainful Stroke. But I do believe that the only way to get this MU into positive territory in games 2 and 3 involves Ceremonious Rejection. Good luck dodging E-Tron without it, Firer certainly had some!
1
Many lists will run Explore on top of the usual Farseek so there is one more target not mentioned yet.
2
If you wanted to main-deck a sweeper other than Bonfire, then I would definitely go for Sweltering Suns. Out of the board the cycling isn't relevant and Anger is better.
1
Remand is and always has been a great card. I don't know why more Queller lists haven't adopted it!
1
Wilfred Wafo-Tapa (if I have spelt that correctly) also runs some jeskai builds that go 'larger' with Gearhulk, Sphinx's Revalation, and Desolate Lighthouse main-deck. I believe these are his deck-lists that have posted results most recently, @ http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=MrCafouillette
I run something similar to the Habikiri main-deck but my sideboard is quite different, as I like to run 3 Geist of Saint Traft in the board for match-ups that we have to be the aggressor in. The main-deck is quite slow, but more favoured against all Eldrazi and Shadow variants than any other Jeskai list IMO.
1
1
There is also Fracturing Gust at 5CMC... but now we're daydreaming.
Congrats on your PPTQ result by the way.
1
It sure is an inefficient way to get there if you go from scratch, but I wouldn't be playing the 'tutor and set up the combo' line as the goal, it would merely be;
a) a sideboard card against Land Destruction if ever prevalent in the meta
b) a new line of play after casting a titan
Also, I would have taken a mulligan also...
1
The 3 Azusa I am looking to bump up to 4 when I get my hands on another copy (I definately see the argument of 4x as a boon vs. Combo decks).
With the disclaimer that I've never tested Groves, I must admit I've never been 100% sold on the Grove of the Burnwillows plan because it makes it harder to combo (and therefore win) vs the field (outside of Shadow). If we give the field a free pass for shocking and fetching, or we raise an opponent over 20 life, then the fact that our deck can do 16 or 20 damage in one swing becomes much less relevant. T-West is more reliable with Botanical Sanctum, and running Serum Visions makes the combo elements of the deck much, much more consistent than Explore ever will.
Those above are the logical arguments for running Botanical Sanctums over Grove of the Burnwillows.
Another logical one is that I can't afford them and I'm a paper-only player currently, so until I ACTUALLY test them, please defer to those who have tested both builds
If my 2 or 3 stores I play at turn in to GDS and JDS hellholes I might fork out the money for a playset but until then I'm stuck with G/U and Serum Visions