@daviusminimus - Thanks for your response, as always! The Reason // Believe package will be a fun project for me to take to FNM etc and I'll report any finding I have if I run it. I am concerned about the nonbo with Relic though (if you have a // Believe in the yard for example) so this may not be the meta for it, time will tell.
1x Leyline of Sanctity I can get behind as it doesn't eat up 1/4 of our sideboard and also removes the worry about horrible top-decks. Spawnofhastur also brought up Witchbane Orb as a possible out vs. TitanShift (can find off stirrings).
In regards to Blood Moon I feel we have become pampered with a lack of land hate until recently, and in reality a deck like ours should ensure to have multiple ways out of moon. I know I've been greedy with my sideboard and run all kinds of luxury test slots instead of Seal of Primordium or Nature's Claim (e.g. Nissa, Steward of Elements for a while, Creeping Corrosion, now Ramunap Excavator). Maybe that time is over.
A trans-formative side-board necessarily takes up a lot of slots I guess. I like trans-formative boards but at the moment would prefer to do as suggested - jam more cliques and geists.
Just had a quick squiz over your deck-list link again and noticed you are running 2x Azusa, Lost but Seeking. I would bump it to at least 3 copies as it is one of our most powerful combo pieces, and as pointed out by others on the forum, if you're facing fast combo and need to race and don't see an Azusa, you can almost always be guaranteed to be slower than them.
If you agree with that line of thought then you could consider dropping 1x Tireless Tracker or 1x Trinket Mage from your main-board, depending on how you want to focus your list.
In regards to Leyline of Sanctity - I feel it's not what we want against attrition/dsicard. First of all, most decks that play discard can mess with us in other ways apart from discard, and they may keep an opener with only 1 piece, or no pieces of discard. Secondly, discard decks also pack fatal push and other removal, so even if we keep Azusa safe in our hand, they will almost always slow our combo on the ground. Then, after all that is considered, we want to construct our deck to give us high % relevant top-decks against attition, and Leyline is possibly the worst top-deck in the deck. Then there is the fact we need to scrub 3-4 sideboard slots for it.
It's true Leyline would be useful in other match-ups, maybe Storm is valid, yes. But then they can bounce it the turn they win or just use Empty the Warrens.
I've often run Monastery Mentor as a 1-of finisher in Jeskai Control and I've liked it quite a lot. Running 4x is different though, it requires a build-around. Cards that might make 4x Monastery Mentor playable in a modern Jeskai shell;
Mishra's Bauble
Dispel / Spell Pierce / Spell Snare (any 1CMC counter to protect mentor when dropping on t4)
Mutagenic Growth
Noxious Revival
Manamorphose
Thought Scour (instant speed cantrip/pump)
Think Twice
However these cards don't lead to 'control' very well, more towards 'tempo / midrange' jeskai.
I'd actually forgotten about Vandalblast, great catch! Would be very versatile. I do like the 4 mana spot for Creeping Corrosion. I guess it's a trade-off of versatility vs speed for the sweeper.
There is also Fracturing Gust at 5CMC... but now we're daydreaming.
Greetings YellowFlash! I'm pretty sure Davius will be representing at GP Burningham as well! I'm in Australia (waving at spawnofhastur).
My deck list is below and the mana base is a little tweaked to help me run an extra flex slot for Academy Ruins. I tested Kessig Wolf Run for some time and remember it winning games vs Lantern Control (plant tokens under an ensnaring bridge) but other than that I barely remember searching for it, and most of the time I had it I wanted to do other things with my mana. To me Kessig is a utility land to break a locked board state, maybe it is felt that we have the tools to get through most of those without Kessig.
I like Academy Ruins so far in testing more than I liked Kessig. If we run Engineered Explosives and Walking Ballista main-board then it can be both pro-active and defensive grind tool. There are decks that simply can't beat an EE or a Walking Ballista every turn. Admittedly a bit anti-synergistic with Relic of Progenitus, but that's not something we can't play around pretty easily under most circumstances.
I've moved away from Botanical Sanctum for the time being, like others recently I'm experiencing a lot more land hate and UW control so having extra basics is nice. I also go down 1x Selasnya Sanctuary for 1x Crumbling Vestige, and since dropping Botanical it has been pretty great at getting Tolaria West online. It also a poor man's bounce-land with an amulet. I've run vestige instead of selasnya for a long time and have had no trouble with it, but it takes me to 7 green bounce-lands, below the magical 8.
To fit in Grove of the Burnwillows AND Academy Ruins I would consider moving to the sideboard or dropping some numbers of Cavern of Souls, Ghost Quarter, Forest, Crumbling Vestige, depending on how many Groves you want to jam and what your meta is like. I do not personally currently own Groves, which has influenced my land base decisions. If the blue requirements seem back-breaking I will go back to at least 1 Botanical Sanctum.
@TomCourtenay
The list looks light on win-cons so I agree with Bearscape on everything he suggests. You could try 3 Snapcaster / 1 Torrential Gearhulk and see how you like that set-up (Gearhulk weak vs. K-command, strong vs. Eldrazi, Tasigur, Angler).
I also noticed that since you cut your Electrolyze from the deck you seem vulnerable to tokens... if you feel that way you could also try to fit in an Izzet Staticaster or Engineered Explosives in the Sideboard.
If you are running 4x Main-Board spreading seas might it be worth-while to test 2x Tectonic Edge instead of 2x Ghost Quarter? That way you can actually attack your opponents mana base instead of letting them fetch for basics.
Chameleon Colossus is indeed a simpler answer to DS... that would mean that the Bellower package would have to have utility outside of DS, since we can just use 1 slot plus our regular tools (Groves / Relics / Bojuka / other sideboards).
One of the main challenges is that a Bellower package could require us to add up to 3 total cards to main and side board (Bellower + 2 good targets outside our current stock choices). It may have good potential but is it worth all the slots? Testing may tell!
Spell Queller is fantastic but not always the RIGHT card.
If you want to add pressure while holding up answers it's perfect. But less good in tap-out control in my opinion. You also have to be prepared to manage your spell queller (it's not a counterspell, it isn't over once you cast it, you might have to babysit it). Spell Queller on Scapeshift is great. Lightning bolt on spell queller is also great...
If I were to play Queller in UW control it would be out of the sideboard for match-ups that I believer require more pressure.
@solidbass
I remember a discussion about Woodland Bellower occuring a while back and it seemed to have potential (now is a pertinent time to bring it up again since we were just talking about that new 3cc toy Ramunap Excavator). Mwonvuli Beast Tracker seems sweet (gets Hornet Queen, Primeval Titan, Ruric-Thar) but I'm thinking that if I'm holding a Summoner's Pact and I have sideboarded in either of Hornet Queen and Ruric-Thar, I likely want to get them on the battlefield ASAP since they usually hose the deck I'm facing. In that instance going through hoops with Bellower/Mwonvuli Beast Tracker seems undesireable.
The deck seems pretty comfortable grinding against any deck that asks it to (outside of UW control). We have multiple ways to tutor our win-cons, we have multiple alternative grindy win-cons out of the sideboard, our lands provide answers often when drawn too (unlike other decks where land top-decks are bricks). I also run Academy Ruins in the main though, which helps grind by re-cycling Walking Ballista, Engineered Explosives, and any destroyed amulet or discarded Amulet of Vigor.
I can't agree with taking out a summoner's pact for Woodland Bellower. I mean, half the reason Woodland Bellower might do good things in the deck is because it itself is tutor-able with Summoner's Pact.
I think an important question for any 6cc Creature is 'If I played a titan in this situation instead of this 6cc creature, would it work better or worse?' 95/100 times the titan is better because the titan leads to other great things. So I guess the potential for Woodland Bellower is linked to what it can get us in the 3cc slot. Courser of Kruphix is probably not the go since by the time we're able to cast titan we either a) needed Courser Earlier and now can stabalise with radiant fountain drops or b) don't need lifegain anymore. Now I can get behind Woodland Bellower finding Tireless Tracker for sure in a grindy match-up. But I feel to justify Woodland Bellower we need at least 2 main-deck 3cc creatures that have great impact, and maybe one out of the sideboard. At the moment I'm not seeing it.
@TomCourtenay
My experience with using Crumble to Dust is that it's a bit too slow against Eldrazi. It might be fine against traditional tron. Personally I run spreading seas in the SB because it's proactive, comes down early, and cantrips. It also is a more versatile answer to problem lands such as man-lands, cavern of souls, etc. However you need to run at lest 2 to make it worth it so it's not as easy as 'swap crumble with spreading seas'. Also, it's not a 'haymaker' sideboard card like crumble is. Seas won't keep anybody off of tron for very long, just enough time for you to gain control hopefully.
I also feel ambivelent about Timely Reinforcements in a Jeskai shell. Mainly because of the existence of Lightning Helix. I play 3 helix mainboard and i feel no need for any lifegain in the sideboard whatsoever. I would take Blessed Alliance over Timely because it is more versatile.
1x Leyline of Sanctity I can get behind as it doesn't eat up 1/4 of our sideboard and also removes the worry about horrible top-decks. Spawnofhastur also brought up Witchbane Orb as a possible out vs. TitanShift (can find off stirrings).
In regards to Blood Moon I feel we have become pampered with a lack of land hate until recently, and in reality a deck like ours should ensure to have multiple ways out of moon. I know I've been greedy with my sideboard and run all kinds of luxury test slots instead of Seal of Primordium or Nature's Claim (e.g. Nissa, Steward of Elements for a while, Creeping Corrosion, now Ramunap Excavator). Maybe that time is over.
Chalice is more popular nowadays too.
2x Courser of Kruphix
2x Reason // Believe
3-4x Serum Visions
@YellowFlash
Just had a quick squiz over your deck-list link again and noticed you are running 2x Azusa, Lost but Seeking. I would bump it to at least 3 copies as it is one of our most powerful combo pieces, and as pointed out by others on the forum, if you're facing fast combo and need to race and don't see an Azusa, you can almost always be guaranteed to be slower than them.
If you agree with that line of thought then you could consider dropping 1x Tireless Tracker or 1x Trinket Mage from your main-board, depending on how you want to focus your list.
In regards to Leyline of Sanctity - I feel it's not what we want against attrition/dsicard. First of all, most decks that play discard can mess with us in other ways apart from discard, and they may keep an opener with only 1 piece, or no pieces of discard. Secondly, discard decks also pack fatal push and other removal, so even if we keep Azusa safe in our hand, they will almost always slow our combo on the ground. Then, after all that is considered, we want to construct our deck to give us high % relevant top-decks against attition, and Leyline is possibly the worst top-deck in the deck. Then there is the fact we need to scrub 3-4 sideboard slots for it.
It's true Leyline would be useful in other match-ups, maybe Storm is valid, yes. But then they can bounce it the turn they win or just use Empty the Warrens.
Mishra's Bauble
Dispel / Spell Pierce / Spell Snare (any 1CMC counter to protect mentor when dropping on t4)
Mutagenic Growth
Noxious Revival
Manamorphose
Thought Scour (instant speed cantrip/pump)
Think Twice
However these cards don't lead to 'control' very well, more towards 'tempo / midrange' jeskai.
There is also Fracturing Gust at 5CMC... but now we're daydreaming.
Congrats on your PPTQ result by the way.
My deck list is below and the mana base is a little tweaked to help me run an extra flex slot for Academy Ruins. I tested Kessig Wolf Run for some time and remember it winning games vs Lantern Control (plant tokens under an ensnaring bridge) but other than that I barely remember searching for it, and most of the time I had it I wanted to do other things with my mana. To me Kessig is a utility land to break a locked board state, maybe it is felt that we have the tools to get through most of those without Kessig.
I like Academy Ruins so far in testing more than I liked Kessig. If we run Engineered Explosives and Walking Ballista main-board then it can be both pro-active and defensive grind tool. There are decks that simply can't beat an EE or a Walking Ballista every turn. Admittedly a bit anti-synergistic with Relic of Progenitus, but that's not something we can't play around pretty easily under most circumstances.
I've moved away from Botanical Sanctum for the time being, like others recently I'm experiencing a lot more land hate and UW control so having extra basics is nice. I also go down 1x Selasnya Sanctuary for 1x Crumbling Vestige, and since dropping Botanical it has been pretty great at getting Tolaria West online. It also a poor man's bounce-land with an amulet. I've run vestige instead of selasnya for a long time and have had no trouble with it, but it takes me to 7 green bounce-lands, below the magical 8.
To fit in Grove of the Burnwillows AND Academy Ruins I would consider moving to the sideboard or dropping some numbers of Cavern of Souls, Ghost Quarter, Forest, Crumbling Vestige, depending on how many Groves you want to jam and what your meta is like. I do not personally currently own Groves, which has influenced my land base decisions. If the blue requirements seem back-breaking I will go back to at least 1 Botanical Sanctum.
Main Deck
3x Relic of Progenitus
4x Sakura-Tribe Scout
4x Ancient Stirrings
3x Explore
3x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Primal Command
4x Primeval Titan
4x Summoner's Pact
1x Pact of Negation
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Walking Ballista
1x Academy Ruins
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Khalini Garden
1x Radiant Fountain
3x Tolaria West
1x Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1x Slayer's Stronghold
1x Vesuva
1x Boros Garrison
3x Gruul Turf
4x Simic Growth Chamber
4x Gemstone Mine
3x Forest
1x Crumbling Vestige
2x Kozilek's Return
2x Dismember
2x Swan Song
1x Ramunap Excavator
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
1x Hornet Queen
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Creeping Corrosion
The list looks light on win-cons so I agree with Bearscape on everything he suggests. You could try 3 Snapcaster / 1 Torrential Gearhulk and see how you like that set-up (Gearhulk weak vs. K-command, strong vs. Eldrazi, Tasigur, Angler).
I also noticed that since you cut your Electrolyze from the deck you seem vulnerable to tokens... if you feel that way you could also try to fit in an Izzet Staticaster or Engineered Explosives in the Sideboard.
If you are running 4x Main-Board spreading seas might it be worth-while to test 2x Tectonic Edge instead of 2x Ghost Quarter? That way you can actually attack your opponents mana base instead of letting them fetch for basics.
One of the main challenges is that a Bellower package could require us to add up to 3 total cards to main and side board (Bellower + 2 good targets outside our current stock choices). It may have good potential but is it worth all the slots? Testing may tell!
If you want to add pressure while holding up answers it's perfect. But less good in tap-out control in my opinion. You also have to be prepared to manage your spell queller (it's not a counterspell, it isn't over once you cast it, you might have to babysit it). Spell Queller on Scapeshift is great. Lightning bolt on spell queller is also great...
If I were to play Queller in UW control it would be out of the sideboard for match-ups that I believer require more pressure.
I have never played UW control, only Jeskai.
I remember a discussion about Woodland Bellower occuring a while back and it seemed to have potential (now is a pertinent time to bring it up again since we were just talking about that new 3cc toy Ramunap Excavator). Mwonvuli Beast Tracker seems sweet (gets Hornet Queen, Primeval Titan, Ruric-Thar) but I'm thinking that if I'm holding a Summoner's Pact and I have sideboarded in either of Hornet Queen and Ruric-Thar, I likely want to get them on the battlefield ASAP since they usually hose the deck I'm facing. In that instance going through hoops with Bellower/Mwonvuli Beast Tracker seems undesireable.
The deck seems pretty comfortable grinding against any deck that asks it to (outside of UW control). We have multiple ways to tutor our win-cons, we have multiple alternative grindy win-cons out of the sideboard, our lands provide answers often when drawn too (unlike other decks where land top-decks are bricks). I also run Academy Ruins in the main though, which helps grind by re-cycling Walking Ballista, Engineered Explosives, and any destroyed amulet or discarded Amulet of Vigor.
I can't agree with taking out a summoner's pact for Woodland Bellower. I mean, half the reason Woodland Bellower might do good things in the deck is because it itself is tutor-able with Summoner's Pact.
I think an important question for any 6cc Creature is 'If I played a titan in this situation instead of this 6cc creature, would it work better or worse?' 95/100 times the titan is better because the titan leads to other great things. So I guess the potential for Woodland Bellower is linked to what it can get us in the 3cc slot. Courser of Kruphix is probably not the go since by the time we're able to cast titan we either a) needed Courser Earlier and now can stabalise with radiant fountain drops or b) don't need lifegain anymore. Now I can get behind Woodland Bellower finding Tireless Tracker for sure in a grindy match-up. But I feel to justify Woodland Bellower we need at least 2 main-deck 3cc creatures that have great impact, and maybe one out of the sideboard. At the moment I'm not seeing it.
My experience with using Crumble to Dust is that it's a bit too slow against Eldrazi. It might be fine against traditional tron. Personally I run spreading seas in the SB because it's proactive, comes down early, and cantrips. It also is a more versatile answer to problem lands such as man-lands, cavern of souls, etc. However you need to run at lest 2 to make it worth it so it's not as easy as 'swap crumble with spreading seas'. Also, it's not a 'haymaker' sideboard card like crumble is. Seas won't keep anybody off of tron for very long, just enough time for you to gain control hopefully.
I also feel ambivelent about Timely Reinforcements in a Jeskai shell. Mainly because of the existence of Lightning Helix. I play 3 helix mainboard and i feel no need for any lifegain in the sideboard whatsoever. I would take Blessed Alliance over Timely because it is more versatile.