I'm not sure removing the delve threats is a wise decision. However, if I were doing this, I would most likely try to build towards a Bedlam Reveler deck. More Lootings, more red sources and a couple more lands.
I think I'll play this over the 2 Faithless Lootings. It doesn't play the exact same role, but it does allow me to find whatever I need at the time at Instant speed. Threat, removal, disruption, grave hate...you can get a lot of things even with just 1 Street Wraith in the GY.
For those wondering about budget manabases, I don't have BC Cliffs either and have been playing with fetches and shocks for quite some time (and without Arid Mesas as well ). It's not ideal, but it works really well (and I get to play the deck ). Here's my list, for anyone wondering.
On a completely unrelated note, what would you all think about a single Goblin Dark-Dwellers in the sideboard? It seems really good for grindy matches, and would be an awesome top deck to flash back something like Kolaghan's Command.
Reducing number of Snapcasters is fine in my opinion, but I like him too much to play anything but 4
4 Anglers are also ok, a lot of people have gone for that lately.
However, I think Looting and Visions play different roles in the deck. Faithless Looting is card neutral, causes you to lose cards in your hand, but gives immediate draw - ideally, you wouldn’t do this more than once a game, and it mostly depends on the cards in your hand.
On the other hand, Serum Visions replaces itself and sets you up for future turns - this is valuable pre-emptively, as it allows you to modify what you’re drawing. Multiples aren’t as bad as with Looting.
I wouldn’t play more than 2 Lootings, and never play less than 4 Serum Visions (or Opt, whichever you prefer).
I like it so much, I would advise you to try it as soon as possible I played Mardu Pyromancer for a while, and saw how powerful Looting is - you almost always have some sort of dead draws, especially in game 1, and this allows you to filter them out.
Early game, it allows you to find a land or threat, late game it turns that unnecessary land or discard spell you topdecked into a usable card. I also leave them in post-sideboard, since it allows you to find your sideboard cards faster as well (a lot of post-sideboard games depend on who gets to their sideboard cards first).
It also fuels delve just as Thought Scour does.
Though not as advantageous as discarding Lingering Souls in Mardu Pyromancer, you also have Snapcaster to flashback any spells you discarded.
All in all, it “raises” the threat density of the deck, which turns out to be a much needed boost.
One negative thing this build has (with Looting and 2 main Bolts) is that you are more dependent on red, which necessiates more conscious fetches. You can stall a lot if you don’t think ahead. Don’t be afraid to fetch Steam Vents as land 1 or 2 if you need to.
Hey all! I played a 16 man local 1k tournament and finished 5th (3-1-2) with GDS. Here's the build I played, along with a tournament report. I anticipated a lot of spell based combo and aggro decks (usually the case here), but there were a lot of creature decks.
Round 1 - Ad Nauseam (2-0)
In both games, I hit him hard with discard. G1 I had 2 DS and 1 Angler on T4, he played a Phyrexian Unlife to extend the game, but I continued beating. G2 he never got anything down, I had 2 DS again, he conceded on T5.
Round 2 - Mardu Pyromancer (2-1) G1: I got hit hard with discard in the first few turns, on a shaky mulligan to 5. Never came back, conceded on T4. G2: I started with discard, got a T2 DS, followed by T3 Liliana the Last Hope. I also drew a lot of my sideboard cards like Izzet Staticaster and E.Explosives. Kept the board clean (Staticaster + LtLH was devastating), got a few more creatures and pushed through. G3: This went similar to G2, except I mulled down to 3 (DS, Street Wraith, land), and opponent mulled to 4. I started with discard, drew really well and had another T3 Liliana. Ticked her up while getting an Angler, started beating down. I was about to ultimate Liliana when opp drew an EE, cast it on 3. Seeing that she wouldn't survive the next turn, I ticked down Liliana, hoping to get a TBR and flashback with Snapcaster to end the game quickly - the first card I milled was TBR. I was so excited that I forgot to return a creature from the graveyard. I immediately attacked with Angler, Snap-TBR for the win.
Round 3 - Humans (2-0) G1: Opponent had a hand full of Kitesail Freebooters and Phantasmal Images. He picked apart my hand pretty well but none were very effective (I lost a Thought Scour, which delayed my Tasigur, and a Stubborn Denial), but I managed to get threats down T3-4. He had a full board with Hierarchs, Freebooters and Images (one which copied my Tasigur), but an attack with Tasigur and 2 8/8 DSs with a TBR did the trick. G2: My opening hand had 2 Pushes, 1 Bolt, 1 DS and and Inquisition. I T1 IoK, discarded a Freebooter, he played a second Freebooter. I constantly kept his board clean, attacked patiently with DS. T5 (or maybe T6) was very interesting: I only had a TBR in hand, which he knew about, and which would present lethal next turn. He played a Dire Fleet Daredevil and Inquisitoned me from my graveyard, discarding TBR. I still had control of the game, but the game would go on. However, I top decked a Snapcaster, and Snap-TBR'ed for the win.
Round 4 (Jeskai Control) and Round 5 (Mardu Pyromancer) were both intentional draws after locking in Top 8. I finished 1st in the Swiss rounds.
Top 8 Quarterfinals - Affinity (1-2) G1: He had a slow start, and I kept his board pretty clean. A combination of Angler and DS did the trick. G2: Opponent played a T1 Thoughtseize and got my K.Command. I never drew my 3rd land, and he hit hard and fast early in the game before I could do much. G3: I started off with a Thoughtseize, and saw his hand of Spire of Industry, Mox Opal, Vault Skirge, 2 Etched Champion, Spell Pierce. I wanted to get an Etched Champion, but saw that if I got Vault Skirge, he wouldn't have any plays for quite a long time. He indeed durdled a lot, draw-go'd or played some weak top decks like an Ornithopter (which I removed), but I just couldn't get a large threat down. I also made a HUGE mistake: I had EE, which I could have played before the turn he played his second Etched Champion, but I was scared of losing to Cranial Plating (I had a Ceremonious Rejection in hand, but only 3 lands). Next turn, with the second Champion in play, I played a DS (again, instead of EE), aiming to close next turn with TBR (also in hand). Next turn, he got me down to 4, and cast a Galvanic Blast for the win. Very disappointing.
Jund and blue decks playing Jace are such a low percentage of the meta. Being able to instant speed your kill spell is super important in a deck like this, more so than something like Jund.
On a side note for the Terminate/Dismember debate, I've been VERY impressed with dismember in Jund Death's Shadow. Being able to move your life total down by 4 at will felt SO powerful. It helps power out fast Death's Shadows, and is great vs blood moon decks. Once there is a blood moon out, it's really hard to alter your life totals with your fetchlands turned off, making DS not as potent. Dismember has swung me a lot of games just by being able to pay 4 life, and still being castable through a Blood Moon. But Jund DS is much more of an aggro/combo deck than Grixis.
I totally agree on this one. I would not main deck Dreadbore in this current meta... 2 Dismembers gives you a very quick scalation for your shadow that takes you opponent by surprise. So its like a tech card with removal package included
Ok, you've both sold me on Dismember. I think it supports the deck's aggro stance better.
I would like to suggest that you cut x1 Stubborn Denial and move it to the sideboard to get x1 K Command on the main deck
As for the Dismember or Terminate/Dreadbore split for me it has worked like marvels having 1/1 Dismember/Terminate
Cutting a SD for Kommand makes sense, I'll try that this week. As for Dismember/Terminate, I used to play like that a few months ago but I can't bring myself to go down to 0 Dreadbore with the current meta of Jund and blue decks running Jace. As always, I'm extremely overthinking this
@Bube: Thanks for sharing and grats on your 3-0. Nice list u got there, I see you run Opt over SV. Is there a particular reason for that?
Thanks
I’ve always been a fan of Opt in the deck, because of the reasons mentioned before: it allows me to hold up blue, and plays nice with Snapcaster. I’ve more than once Stubborn Denial’ed a T1 play from my opponent because I had Opt in hand, instead of Visions. I think that makes it very valuable. Also, whatever the meta, we almost always have to play protect the queen, because of our low density of threats. I never want to let my guard down with a main phase Visions.
I’ve actually had similar reservations for the sorcery speed Faithless Looting, but that’s usually a last ditch effort where you’re looking to trade dead cards with useful ones. I didn’t feel that it was in the same category as the blue cantrips.
Looting sounds like a valuable addition to me, too. So how to integrate it within common lists? Maybe running a 2-2 split on Looting and SV?
Here's the list I ran at FNM last week, to my first ever 3-0 (UR Breach, RG Eldrazi, Taking Turns). This was my first time playing with Faithless Looting, which proved to be key in 2 games (out of 7 that night).
Some notes:
Landbase is a bit shaky because I don't have Scalding Tarns. I think I'll remove 2 Marsh Flats and 1 Blood Crypt, and play 3 Flooded Strands in place.
I forgot my Dismembers at home, so I played a 1/1 split of Terminate and Dreadbore. I honestly can't decide which setup is better.
I think I should be playing at least 1 K Command main, but can't decide what to remove (I don't want to go lower than the current amount of removal).
Were you asking me? If yes, then the answer is no. I've never moved on to Baubles, even in classic GDS. In GDS with Bedlams and YPs, that's a total no-no
Does anyone have experience with what swapping Delve creatures for YP does to our clock? I like the resilience and threat docersification of going wide, but a big selling point of this deck is being able to go under Big Mana decks after ripping their hand apart. It seems like Peezy would weaken that angle considerably, although the resilience vs. spot removal is a huge help.
I tried a few games this way, and I replaced Denials with Mana Leaks as @stonecrowe mentioned. It really does play like Grixis Delver with Shadows and Bedlam Revelers. I felt the deck was slow, which left me wanting a faster way to draw cards and accelerate. I'm not really sure if Grixis is the way to go here - Snapcasters don't play well with Reveler. Mardu seems faster, and has more synergy. I'll keep trying to make either of them work.
I think I might start testing young pyromancer now with Jace in the format
I also think YP is the right way to go.
The Achilles' heel of GDS was graveyard hate in the recent meta, but with the unbans we're getting a new one: non-Haste Delve creatures, which is why we need different angles of attack. GDS is very threat-light, and vulnerable to the new cards (JtMS can bounce, BBE can bring an attacker or removal alongside her haste).
I've actually been trying Mardu Shadow recently, a hybrid of the recent Mardu Pyromancer couple with a DS packages (with 4 Thoughseizes and Street Wraiths). It seems to work pretty well; you swarm with YP and Lingering Souls, drop big bodies with DS and draw cards with Bedlam Reveler.
Having said that, I actually want to try this with GDS (with 4 main Y.Pyromancers and Bedlam Revelers, completely removing our Delvers). This way, you have multiple paths to victory that can't be shut down with just one counter-strategy.
I think I'll play this over the 2 Faithless Lootings. It doesn't play the exact same role, but it does allow me to find whatever I need at the time at Instant speed. Threat, removal, disruption, grave hate...you can get a lot of things even with just 1 Street Wraith in the GY.
3x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Dragonskull Summit
3x Marsh Flats
2x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Swamp
2x Wooded Foothills
Creature
4x Bedlam Reveler
4x Young Pyromancer
3x Collective Brutality
1x Dreadbore
4x Faithless Looting
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
Instant
2x Fatal Push
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
Enchantment
2x Blood Moon
1x Collective Brutality
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Molten Rain
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Wear
1x Hazoret the Fervent
On a completely unrelated note, what would you all think about a single Goblin Dark-Dwellers in the sideboard? It seems really good for grindy matches, and would be an awesome top deck to flash back something like Kolaghan's Command.
That's correct, yes. It's only "neutral" when you flash it back.
4 Anglers are also ok, a lot of people have gone for that lately.
However, I think Looting and Visions play different roles in the deck. Faithless Looting is card neutral, causes you to lose cards in your hand, but gives immediate draw - ideally, you wouldn’t do this more than once a game, and it mostly depends on the cards in your hand.
On the other hand, Serum Visions replaces itself and sets you up for future turns - this is valuable pre-emptively, as it allows you to modify what you’re drawing. Multiples aren’t as bad as with Looting.
I wouldn’t play more than 2 Lootings, and never play less than 4 Serum Visions (or Opt, whichever you prefer).
I like it so much, I would advise you to try it as soon as possible
Early game, it allows you to find a land or threat, late game it turns that unnecessary land or discard spell you topdecked into a usable card. I also leave them in post-sideboard, since it allows you to find your sideboard cards faster as well (a lot of post-sideboard games depend on who gets to their sideboard cards first).
It also fuels delve just as Thought Scour does.
Though not as advantageous as discarding Lingering Souls in Mardu Pyromancer, you also have Snapcaster to flashback any spells you discarded.
All in all, it “raises” the threat density of the deck, which turns out to be a much needed boost.
One negative thing this build has (with Looting and 2 main Bolts) is that you are more dependent on red, which necessiates more conscious fetches. You can stall a lot if you don’t think ahead. Don’t be afraid to fetch Steam Vents as land 1 or 2 if you need to.
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Sorceries
2x Faithless Looting
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Serum Visions
2x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
2x Lightning Bolt
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Thought Scour
Creatures
4x Death's Shadow
3x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Street Wraith
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Fatal Push
Round 1 - Ad Nauseam (2-0)
In both games, I hit him hard with discard. G1 I had 2 DS and 1 Angler on T4, he played a Phyrexian Unlife to extend the game, but I continued beating. G2 he never got anything down, I had 2 DS again, he conceded on T5.
Round 2 - Mardu Pyromancer (2-1)
G1: I got hit hard with discard in the first few turns, on a shaky mulligan to 5. Never came back, conceded on T4.
G2: I started with discard, got a T2 DS, followed by T3 Liliana the Last Hope. I also drew a lot of my sideboard cards like Izzet Staticaster and E.Explosives. Kept the board clean (Staticaster + LtLH was devastating), got a few more creatures and pushed through.
G3: This went similar to G2, except I mulled down to 3 (DS, Street Wraith, land), and opponent mulled to 4. I started with discard, drew really well and had another T3 Liliana. Ticked her up while getting an Angler, started beating down. I was about to ultimate Liliana when opp drew an EE, cast it on 3. Seeing that she wouldn't survive the next turn, I ticked down Liliana, hoping to get a TBR and flashback with Snapcaster to end the game quickly - the first card I milled was TBR. I was so excited that I forgot to return a creature from the graveyard. I immediately attacked with Angler, Snap-TBR for the win.
Round 3 - Humans (2-0)
G1: Opponent had a hand full of Kitesail Freebooters and Phantasmal Images. He picked apart my hand pretty well but none were very effective (I lost a Thought Scour, which delayed my Tasigur, and a Stubborn Denial), but I managed to get threats down T3-4. He had a full board with Hierarchs, Freebooters and Images (one which copied my Tasigur), but an attack with Tasigur and 2 8/8 DSs with a TBR did the trick.
G2: My opening hand had 2 Pushes, 1 Bolt, 1 DS and and Inquisition. I T1 IoK, discarded a Freebooter, he played a second Freebooter. I constantly kept his board clean, attacked patiently with DS. T5 (or maybe T6) was very interesting: I only had a TBR in hand, which he knew about, and which would present lethal next turn. He played a Dire Fleet Daredevil and Inquisitoned me from my graveyard, discarding TBR. I still had control of the game, but the game would go on. However, I top decked a Snapcaster, and Snap-TBR'ed for the win.
Round 4 (Jeskai Control) and Round 5 (Mardu Pyromancer) were both intentional draws after locking in Top 8. I finished 1st in the Swiss rounds.
Top 8 Quarterfinals - Affinity (1-2)
G1: He had a slow start, and I kept his board pretty clean. A combination of Angler and DS did the trick.
G2: Opponent played a T1 Thoughtseize and got my K.Command. I never drew my 3rd land, and he hit hard and fast early in the game before I could do much.
G3: I started off with a Thoughtseize, and saw his hand of Spire of Industry, Mox Opal, Vault Skirge, 2 Etched Champion, Spell Pierce. I wanted to get an Etched Champion, but saw that if I got Vault Skirge, he wouldn't have any plays for quite a long time. He indeed durdled a lot, draw-go'd or played some weak top decks like an Ornithopter (which I removed), but I just couldn't get a large threat down. I also made a HUGE mistake: I had EE, which I could have played before the turn he played his second Etched Champion, but I was scared of losing to Cranial Plating (I had a Ceremonious Rejection in hand, but only 3 lands). Next turn, with the second Champion in play, I played a DS (again, instead of EE), aiming to close next turn with TBR (also in hand). Next turn, he got me down to 4, and cast a Galvanic Blast for the win. Very disappointing.
Ok, you've both sold me on Dismember. I think it supports the deck's aggro stance better.
Cutting a SD for Kommand makes sense, I'll try that this week. As for Dismember/Terminate, I used to play like that a few months ago but I can't bring myself to go down to 0 Dreadbore with the current meta of Jund and blue decks running Jace. As always, I'm extremely overthinking this
Thanks
I’ve always been a fan of Opt in the deck, because of the reasons mentioned before: it allows me to hold up blue, and plays nice with Snapcaster. I’ve more than once Stubborn Denial’ed a T1 play from my opponent because I had Opt in hand, instead of Visions. I think that makes it very valuable. Also, whatever the meta, we almost always have to play protect the queen, because of our low density of threats. I never want to let my guard down with a main phase Visions.
I’ve actually had similar reservations for the sorcery speed Faithless Looting, but that’s usually a last ditch effort where you’re looking to trade dead cards with useful ones. I didn’t feel that it was in the same category as the blue cantrips.
Here's the list I ran at FNM last week, to my first ever 3-0 (UR Breach, RG Eldrazi, Taking Turns). This was my first time playing with Faithless Looting, which proved to be key in 2 games (out of 7 that night).
Some notes:
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Marsh Flats
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Sorceries
2x Faithless Looting
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
1x Dreadbore
1x Terminate
2x Fatal Push
2x Lightning Bolt
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Opt
4x Thought Scour
Creatures
4x Death's Shadow
3x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Street Wraith
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Abrade
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Fatal Push
Were you asking me? If yes, then the answer is no. I've never moved on to Baubles, even in classic GDS. In GDS with Bedlams and YPs, that's a total no-no
I tried a few games this way, and I replaced Denials with Mana Leaks as @stonecrowe mentioned. It really does play like Grixis Delver with Shadows and Bedlam Revelers. I felt the deck was slow, which left me wanting a faster way to draw cards and accelerate. I'm not really sure if Grixis is the way to go here - Snapcasters don't play well with Reveler. Mardu seems faster, and has more synergy. I'll keep trying to make either of them work.
I also think YP is the right way to go.
The Achilles' heel of GDS was graveyard hate in the recent meta, but with the unbans we're getting a new one: non-Haste Delve creatures, which is why we need different angles of attack. GDS is very threat-light, and vulnerable to the new cards (JtMS can bounce, BBE can bring an attacker or removal alongside her haste).
I've actually been trying Mardu Shadow recently, a hybrid of the recent Mardu Pyromancer couple with a DS packages (with 4 Thoughseizes and Street Wraiths). It seems to work pretty well; you swarm with YP and Lingering Souls, drop big bodies with DS and draw cards with Bedlam Reveler.
Having said that, I actually want to try this with GDS (with 4 main Y.Pyromancers and Bedlam Revelers, completely removing our Delvers). This way, you have multiple paths to victory that can't be shut down with just one counter-strategy.