I can't imagine people playing Preordain in Miracles, Leovold decks, or anything else, but honestly Legacy is a place for innovation and odd people try odd things. Did you know that people play Veteran Explorer in Legacy...and actually don't lose to everything?
Excuse me!? Do not besmirch NicFit.
Also FWIW, I've added a 2nd Preordain to my ANT deck and I'm tempted by a 3rd. I really like being able to filter some more things out of the way when I want a specfici card rather then taking my chances with the shuffle from Ponder if it's not there.
BBD and others are coming around to Preordain in the 4C Leovold decks as well. Setting up draws there is arguably more important then any other time that counter balance isn't in play.
Sword of Fire and Ice is the one that would go off the deep end as well. It's already high vs the other Sword's since it's a mainstay in any Legacy Stoneblade/Deathblade deck. Being suddenly Modern playable is going to kick that puppy waaaaay up.
I'll take all that, all that sounds fair. To be clear, I am not pushing to unban MM or Hypergenesis. MM does have potential to cause problems, and you seem to see that has already in your local events, but I think there would be deck evolution and our format would survive. It is a high risk unban and is not likely at all to be unbanned especially now that UW control is performing better.
That point on hypergenesis is what people always come back with. I agree WOTC doesn't want that around, but I just don't think it's good enough to take over the format. It would see play, and win some games, but that is a long way from format defining or breaking.
I feel the actual most likely unbans, even without the results of this event, are GSZ, twin and SFM in that order.
I'm with you on SFM. I, along with pretty much everyone else in this thread and elsewhere agree on that one. I could potentially see Preordain come off as well. But I also saw on Tom Ross's Twitter he was doing a poll about a Reordain idea. He had it setup as Scry 1, Draw a card, Scry 1 and wanted to get people's thoughts on it. So I don't know what that means for the future of Preordain.
GSZ makes me leary. I know this isn't Legacy but there's always a risk in wide ranging tutor's. But I could certainly see it.
Twin seems like a stretch to me. Wizard's doesn't seem to like combo decks in Modern and Twin makes people even saltier then Storm does. As a combo player at heart, I wouldn't mind seeing it unbanned as I'd pick it up right away. But health wise for the format? I don't know.
They didn't make an extra set (I assume you refer to Conspiracy?) to give it new cards and make it more fresh. They made that to sell more stuff drafting. Conspiracy, 1 and 2, had relatively little to offer Legacy.
Well, Leovold, Recruiter of the Guard, Council's Judgment, Dack, Daretti, Sanctum Prelate etc are meaningful (funny. Without these sete D&T as it is now doesn't exist). But you're right, it's not that many. But there were some rather sweet reprints like Show and Tell, Berserk, Exploration, Pernicious Deed and Stifle.
I mean it wasn't super amazing, but it didn't suck either. I think post whatever Commander set it was when they made True-Name, they've been a bit gun shy about making new cards for Legacy via supplimental products. So I'm not disagreeing with you that they sets aren't really for Legacy but drafting. Just more of a small hope that they keep throwing in some good Legacy reprints each time they do one of these sets.
- Artifacts lands aren't enough in a Cloudpost format for Affinty to keep up with Eldrazi. They get ramped out of the game and Jitte is simply too much for them to overcome.
- Hypergenisis is garbage. It was a terrible Legacy deck even when it was vaguely popular and has only gotten worse. It also doesn't have the chutzpah to hang with NBL modern either. That being said, a Hyper Genisis/Breaching Emrakul deck feels like a combo deck Wizard's wouldn't like in modern.
- Mental Misstep is a god awful card that should never have been printed. It's insanely warping. But then I also play Vintage so see it in use regularly. And all those who didn't throw Misstep in their deck for this event and then board it out as needed didn't do any testing. Which is fair enough. I'm lucky to live in a place that has NBL Modern all the time so I get to see this format on a regular basis. Misstep is nuts.
I'd be willing to do a sideboard guide if people are interested that.
We've been chatting, but I would certainly be interested in something like that.
As an aside, I was listening to the GAM podcast the other day and Bryan was discussing using Warping Wail in the board over Spatial Contortion. His argument was that Wail kills all the really annoying creatures and helps vs Scapeshift at the same time. Which he believed was much more helpful then Spatial Contortion's targetted removal of slightly stronger creatures. Thoughts?
Cheers Javert. I guess I wasn't taking the like gain Bogles can get into consideration. It just seemed that Humans would go wide since Bogles is often tall and narrow.
Follow up question: With the rise of control running sweeper's everywhere, is no one running Thrun anymore?
With the caveat that I've never played this deck and have never seen a Bogles vs Human's matchup, could someone please summarize why this deck is considered so good against humans? I keep hearing that being said over and over locally but no one actually plays it so I'm curious if they're correct or just talking out of their foot.
I pray that Karn and Teferi dominate the Pro Tour so I can cash in. Glad I bought those Teferis when people where saying he be garbage in Modern granted I may be biased he is one of my favorite walkers so that could have bit me in the behind.
As for Lyra it depends do you play standard? If so and you like any white deck you probably need her if not well dont but presumably Ravnica will give some good fliers.....
Yeah, it's not too common to see a set where both walkers are seeing modern play. Karn is seeing play across multiple formats.
Fact.
Affinity has been hot garbage in Legacy for years and that's being nice. Karn pumped the deck into a top 4 finish at GP Birmingham at the first opportunity. Some legacy players are slow to change, but he's starting to pop up and if Vintage Shops players haven't nabbed him yet, they're going to.
Despite being all shiny, he isn’t actually an arfifact. Are shops players likely to take the risk on a card they can’t actually use Workshop mana to get cast?
Absolutely. Between Lotus, Moxen, Ancient Tombs, etc there's enough mana to get Karn out quickly. And once he's there, the game is over more or less.
We truly need a team trio of closest-to-Stasis - Lantern - No win condition UW. Stream would be epic.
If Wizard's ever reprints Stasis with the awesome MTGO art, I am entirely making a Stasis deck.
As to the event this weekend, I fully admit this was the first time I've ever seen Stain the Mind be used. Interesting bit of kit for the Elves decks that lean black instead of white. I imagine it's quite useful for them via combo.
I pray that Karn and Teferi dominate the Pro Tour so I can cash in. Glad I bought those Teferis when people where saying he be garbage in Modern granted I may be biased he is one of my favorite walkers so that could have bit me in the behind.
As for Lyra it depends do you play standard? If so and you like any white deck you probably need her if not well dont but presumably Ravnica will give some good fliers.....
Yeah, it's not too common to see a set where both walkers are seeing modern play. Karn is seeing play across multiple formats.
Fact.
Affinity has been hot garbage in Legacy for years and that's being nice. Karn pumped the deck into a top 4 finish at GP Birmingham at the first opportunity. Some legacy players are slow to change, but he's starting to pop up and if Vintage Shops players haven't nabbed him yet, they're going to.
A minute of silence for Brennan DiCandio not making it to day 2.
On other topic, it sucked big time for the Human player to face Worship coming from Affinity. However, he let the equipped Vault Skirge hit way too many times.
Oh, yay. More salty articles about how bad Modern is in 3...2....1....
That's a brilliant sideboard card from Affinty. I admittedly laughed a great deal at that one.
Having read so many of your posts over the past year FCG, along with being a poster I really respect my comments boils down to this
A: You seem torn as a player when it comes to your identity. You want to win but you want to do it with sneaky Tier 2 decks that can maximize you're experience and skill. Unfortunately, these seem to be at cross purposes. Tier 2 decks are that for a reason and sometimes, even with superior play you're going to lose to the "better" deck. You need to decide if you're ok with that.
Playing decks that prey on others is all well and good, but if ones prey isn't a high enough percentage of the meta, that won't help you much. You can hunt Delver in Legacy and whatever is the Deck of the day in Standard. In Modern, I don't think it's that easy since nothing will have the same sort of play percentages as those referenced above.
B: Sometimes mate, you just seem burnt out. I wonder if a format change for a couple of weeks or taking your mind off Modern for a bit by diving into something else expansive like Witcher 3 would recharge your batteries.
C: Stuff what other people think about your deck. If you want to play Bogles and enjoy playing Bogles, Giver.
D: Combo decks sometimes beat themselves. If that's not on your happy list, I'd keep Grishoalbrand/Knightfall as decks that you play for fun rather then when you want to win gas money.
You know me a little too well! Are you someone I talk to in person, by chance?
Yes, I know that I probably should be playing something at a higher Tier to appease my Spike side. But I also have a Johnny (Combo player) side. I should play what I need to play to compete at the highest level and what I WANT to play for when it doesn't matter much. I have done that before, but when I am drawing poorly with a bad deck, I quickly revert to a consistently good deck in order to "know that I can still win at Magic." You know, I have gotten the "take a break" from Magic for a while before and I have never listened to it before. This is the first time it actually hit me hard, so thanks for that. I just came back from a 1K today where the toughest opponent for me was the guy I drove with, who is a lesser play skill level than myself, and LOST (again) in the top 4 after knocking him out of the top 8. I literally was 1 Bogle of a draw in 2 loooong games from winning. I was stuck with 7 Auras in hand both games, going to the discard several times. I drew 0 Slippery Bogle and 0 Gladecover Scout in the 2 games, but was 1 draw of either of those from winning either game. And yes, he mulliganed to 4 in game 1. But, he got the win.
The deck was really good for the meta. I got to play against Affinity, Soul Sisters, and Jeskai Control. I also dodged playing against at least 3 Humans and 3 Burn decks. I also sadly dodged playing against a Dredge deck that top 4ed also. So, often my poor choices of deck choice get rewarded and that enforces my belief to go under the meta with a worse deck that has a positive matchup vs. some of the top decks. I know what I'm doing, but I don't know how to stop it, lol.
Not unless you come up to Vancouver regularly. I haven't been to Cali outside of San Fran for conferences in years. Mostly, I just pay attention to posts from people I respect. Also, I saw a bit of myself in your original post as my inner Johnny and Spike are constantly battling, much like yourself.
The best (in terms of maximizing my win rate) I've been able to come up with is to have one Tier 1 "winner" style deck and then another to monkey around with. For example I play Storm as my Tier 1 deck (bonus as it's a combo deck) and then monkey around with Angry Garden as my just for fun/palate cleanser deck.
If you wanted to try a similair path, I'd be jamming Humans as my "win now" deck and something CoCo based as your palate cleanser since you really enjoy that card/those decks.
Excuse me!? Do not besmirch NicFit.
Also FWIW, I've added a 2nd Preordain to my ANT deck and I'm tempted by a 3rd. I really like being able to filter some more things out of the way when I want a specfici card rather then taking my chances with the shuffle from Ponder if it's not there.
BBD and others are coming around to Preordain in the 4C Leovold decks as well. Setting up draws there is arguably more important then any other time that counter balance isn't in play.
I'm with you on SFM. I, along with pretty much everyone else in this thread and elsewhere agree on that one. I could potentially see Preordain come off as well. But I also saw on Tom Ross's Twitter he was doing a poll about a Reordain idea. He had it setup as Scry 1, Draw a card, Scry 1 and wanted to get people's thoughts on it. So I don't know what that means for the future of Preordain.
GSZ makes me leary. I know this isn't Legacy but there's always a risk in wide ranging tutor's. But I could certainly see it.
Twin seems like a stretch to me. Wizard's doesn't seem to like combo decks in Modern and Twin makes people even saltier then Storm does. As a combo player at heart, I wouldn't mind seeing it unbanned as I'd pick it up right away. But health wise for the format? I don't know.
Tasty for human's. Though at 3 mana, I don't think it'll be a 4 of. Still, a creature tutor for a deck with only creatures is sweet.
Selfishly though, if this is ok and Stirring's somehow gets the boot, I'd be annoyed.
Well, Leovold, Recruiter of the Guard, Council's Judgment, Dack, Daretti, Sanctum Prelate etc are meaningful (funny. Without these sete D&T as it is now doesn't exist). But you're right, it's not that many. But there were some rather sweet reprints like Show and Tell, Berserk, Exploration, Pernicious Deed and Stifle.
I mean it wasn't super amazing, but it didn't suck either. I think post whatever Commander set it was when they made True-Name, they've been a bit gun shy about making new cards for Legacy via supplimental products. So I'm not disagreeing with you that they sets aren't really for Legacy but drafting. Just more of a small hope that they keep throwing in some good Legacy reprints each time they do one of these sets.
- Artifacts lands aren't enough in a Cloudpost format for Affinty to keep up with Eldrazi. They get ramped out of the game and Jitte is simply too much for them to overcome.
- Hypergenisis is garbage. It was a terrible Legacy deck even when it was vaguely popular and has only gotten worse. It also doesn't have the chutzpah to hang with NBL modern either. That being said, a Hyper Genisis/Breaching Emrakul deck feels like a combo deck Wizard's wouldn't like in modern.
- Mental Misstep is a god awful card that should never have been printed. It's insanely warping. But then I also play Vintage so see it in use regularly. And all those who didn't throw Misstep in their deck for this event and then board it out as needed didn't do any testing. Which is fair enough. I'm lucky to live in a place that has NBL Modern all the time so I get to see this format on a regular basis. Misstep is nuts.
We've been chatting, but I would certainly be interested in something like that.
As an aside, I was listening to the GAM podcast the other day and Bryan was discussing using Warping Wail in the board over Spatial Contortion. His argument was that Wail kills all the really annoying creatures and helps vs Scapeshift at the same time. Which he believed was much more helpful then Spatial Contortion's targetted removal of slightly stronger creatures. Thoughts?
Caleb and Paul both won their SCG Regional events.
I play Storm and have been mucking with Tron lately. Yet the deck hate I get is no where near the local Lantern players. Not even close.
Follow up question: With the rise of control running sweeper's everywhere, is no one running Thrun anymore?
With the caveat that I've never played this deck and have never seen a Bogles vs Human's matchup, could someone please summarize why this deck is considered so good against humans? I keep hearing that being said over and over locally but no one actually plays it so I'm curious if they're correct or just talking out of their foot.
Absolutely. Between Lotus, Moxen, Ancient Tombs, etc there's enough mana to get Karn out quickly. And once he's there, the game is over more or less.
If Wizard's ever reprints Stasis with the awesome MTGO art, I am entirely making a Stasis deck.
As to the event this weekend, I fully admit this was the first time I've ever seen Stain the Mind be used. Interesting bit of kit for the Elves decks that lean black instead of white. I imagine it's quite useful for them via combo.
Fact.
Affinity has been hot garbage in Legacy for years and that's being nice. Karn pumped the deck into a top 4 finish at GP Birmingham at the first opportunity. Some legacy players are slow to change, but he's starting to pop up and if Vintage Shops players haven't nabbed him yet, they're going to.
Oh, yay. More salty articles about how bad Modern is in 3...2....1....
That's a brilliant sideboard card from Affinty. I admittedly laughed a great deal at that one.
Yup. The current deck building rage seems to be making a "Chaos " deck based around all the coin flip cards.
Not unless you come up to Vancouver regularly. I haven't been to Cali outside of San Fran for conferences in years. Mostly, I just pay attention to posts from people I respect. Also, I saw a bit of myself in your original post as my inner Johnny and Spike are constantly battling, much like yourself.
The best (in terms of maximizing my win rate) I've been able to come up with is to have one Tier 1 "winner" style deck and then another to monkey around with. For example I play Storm as my Tier 1 deck (bonus as it's a combo deck) and then monkey around with Angry Garden as my just for fun/palate cleanser deck.
If you wanted to try a similair path, I'd be jamming Humans as my "win now" deck and something CoCo based as your palate cleanser since you really enjoy that card/those decks.
Just my 2 cents.