The scg list is 5 colors supported by 12 creature/type specific lands. The manabase just doesn’t support colored non-creature spells, that’s all. Personally, I think CoCo is stll great, I would say better in most decks that could run one or the other. Vial is a terrible top deck and sucks in multiples.
Not quite.
Notice the vial list hast a much higher concentration of 2-drops v 3-drops whereas the coco builds usualy have more value at the 3-drop slot to maximize coco value.
I played the deck this weekend in paper, but only against a narrow selection of decks. Mainly a draw-go style UB control build with The Scarab God
Let's put it this way: When i t works, it works great! But the control mirror is unfavored due to the instant speed nature of the opponent.
Against ramp/midrange creaturedecks it works great. I have no clue as of how it will function against real aggro style play. Might need something like Bontu's Last Reckoning in the side.
In the 5c or BantR build, Harsh Mentor definitely deserves a spot in the board versus creature combo decks. i.e. Affinity, Knightfall, Counters Company and the other Devoted Druid Decks.
I use it as a hate piecee in my Bushwhacker list and it works great.
Painful Lesson Has a double function here. Besides the obvious "draw two, tose two" it also acts as a way to make a 7 point lifeswing possible, against most decks, when the combo is online. The Raiders' Wake trigger only happens when the opponent CAN discard.
The blue splash for Reflector Mage seems easier with this manabase, i.e. with the addition of Unclaimed Territory.
I'm a fan of Big Thalia and I would definitely include her. Also i would pick the fourth Kitesail Freebooter over Avacyn's Pilgrim to free up another sideboard slot. Worship would be my pick.
I was thinking about starting a thread of my own when i stumbled upon this topic.
I have been brewing a list similar to the ideas here, but with a different approach in the Ixalan standard format.
The core of the deck resolves around a 5 damage clock from turn 4 onwards with:
The strategy (on curve):
Keep the board clean of creatures and removalspells with Handdisruption, Removal and Gifted Aetherborn in the early turns.
Resolve a Dreamstealer
Resolve a Raiders' Wake
And start swinging while keeping blockers in check for mannace to work, for 5 - 9 damage a turn.
Use Painful Lesson to refuel your engine and nab another 2 from the opponent. This card also doubles as a search engine for your winconditions.
End the game with Torment of Hailfire when the opponents board and hand is almost empty.
I have yet to find a matchup where Spell Queller is not relevant. Maybe if we are in the awkward spot of being the aggressor and we have something more aggressive in the sideboard (which i don't).
Dropping blue has made my deck far more reliable in the Blood Moon matches. I have made a few tweaks top the manabase to make this happen, Verdant Catacombs instead of Windswept Heath.
Fetching my three basics and trying to get rid of Blood Moon as early as possible with hand disruption is the best way. If it does resolve, it's only a minor annoiance, and usually a loss of turn three for the opponent.
Serious question here for everybody. Do you feel that this deck is Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3? Now I know when it comes down to it, it really is semantics and (most) any solidly built deck on any given day can take down a Modern tournament. But how do you feel it ranks with the likes of Grixis Shadow, E Tron, Titanshift, and Affinity? I realize that it probably matters less now that WotC is giving less info, but it irks me a little bit for us to be listed here on MTGS as "Tier 3."
Here's my opinion...
I feel that it's Tier 2, but close to Tier 1. I think it's a very strong deck that is underestimated in the meta. I know. I underestimated it for the longest time until I decided to finally try it 6 months ago. I'm pretty sure many are the same way.
I Heartfully agree! I play traditional knightfall alongside two other modern builds (Bushwhacker Zoo and my own Abzan Humans). and it's definitely the most challenging and interesting deck to play. It is capable of beating every deck I have encountered so far. Sometimes it's all about drawing your hate cards post board, but often times the non-lineair tempo/contronling nature of the deck is sufficient. Comboing off feels great though!
Love the deck and love the variatious possible lines of play!
My guess is most bant players opt for an eldrazi build nowadays, which it's currently not tiered higher.
With the printing of Kitesail Freebooter i'll be definetly trying an Abzan(U) list. I would even go as far as dropping blue alltogether and go full disruptive.
My current list allready has some black mainboard and a lot sideboard to the point I feel it's realy just a blue splash for Reflector Mage rather than Bant.
I wonder, has anyone ever tried a list without the ranp and exalted triggers of Noble Hierarch?
So yesterday, with Ixalan being legal to play I did a couple of games with the aforementioned Abzan list on the kitchen table with a friend. The results were very promising. Took on and beat UB Fearies twice and GR Tooth and Nail. 2-0, 20, 2-1 respectively.
The manabase was extremely consistent and pretty pain free. It definitely felt better than BantB/BantR. The deck was also naturally capable to beat trough Blood Moon when fetching basics correctly.
I play 26 creatures to make room for T1 disruption. I Used it every time I could and felt very strong. Never had problems with Collected Company, but technically we lose some value over a large sample size of games.
Our deck is naturally weak to removal/sweepers, so the plan is to disrupt and remove any spot removal spell first, then play a Kitesail Freebooter and take another piece, a sweeper or some sideboard tech. Post board, the follow up Sin Collector is devastating.
As a result, Champion of the Parish is a little less preferred as the one drop. Though one of the strongest line of play was: T1 Inquisition of Kozilek. T2 Champion of The Parish, Noble Hierarch. T3 Kitesail Freebooter, Thalia's Lieutenant.
Against any counter magic, Cavern of Souls is obviously MVP, but the additional disruption in the deck let's you focus on the other troublesome spells!
The sideboard is a rough, though pretty serious sketch, based on my own experience and local Meta.
What do you guys think of my current take on the humans list?
With the printing of Kitesail Freebooter i'll be definetly trying an Abzan(U) list. I would even go as far as dropping blue alltogether and go full disruptive.
My current list allready has some black mainboard and a lot sideboard to the point I feel it's realy just a blue splash for Reflector Mage rather than Bant.
I wonder, has anyone ever tried a list without the ranp and exalted triggers of Noble Hierarch?
How do you guys feel about bringing in Rest in Peace against the stronger GY based decks? Does it take away too much of the power of Knight of the Reliquary?
Hello everybody, quite new to the forum and have been experimenting with various COCO decks over the last month, which started as humans tribal. Is has recently developed to a knightfall deck and I am seriously considering the deck for my first FNM for its ability to be fairly adaptive. This is contrary to my other deck, Bushwhacker Zoo Aggro.
I'd like your opinion on Voice of Resurgence, or rather the lack thereoff. This is a card I probably won't be able to add in time and the slot is currently occupied by a pair of Selfless Spirit which provide some preasure the air while provide some protection.
The other two drops are 3 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Qasali Pridemage.
Questions:
Would you take a fairly new Knightfall deck over a mastered Bushwhacker Zoo Aggro deck to FNM in the current meta?
Yes, that is its ETB effect, AND dies effect.
The ceiling is when it enters the battlefield with Metallic Mimic in play, you can stack the triggers in such a way that it becomes a 5/5 trample on turn 3. It's a shame realy that Metallic Mimic doesn't work with Collected Company. It does however work with Thalia's Lieutenant when both are hit off of Collected Company
The floor is a 3/3 trample and in between you have a "lord for one". Not excactly shabby by my book.
Not quite.
Notice the vial list hast a much higher concentration of 2-drops v 3-drops whereas the coco builds usualy have more value at the 3-drop slot to maximize coco value.
Let's put it this way: When i t works, it works great! But the control mirror is unfavored due to the instant speed nature of the opponent.
Against ramp/midrange creaturedecks it works great. I have no clue as of how it will function against real aggro style play. Might need something like Bontu's Last Reckoning in the side.
I use it as a hate piecee in my Bushwhacker list and it works great.
The blue splash for Reflector Mage seems easier with this manabase, i.e. with the addition of Unclaimed Territory.
I'm a fan of Big Thalia and I would definitely include her. Also i would pick the fourth Kitesail Freebooter over Avacyn's Pilgrim to free up another sideboard slot. Worship would be my pick.
I have been brewing a list similar to the ideas here, but with a different approach in the Ixalan standard format.
The core of the deck resolves around a 5 damage clock from turn 4 onwards with:
The strategy (on curve):
Keep the board clean of creatures and removalspells with Handdisruption, Removal and Gifted Aetherborn in the early turns.
Resolve a Dreamstealer
Resolve a Raiders' Wake
And start swinging while keeping blockers in check for mannace to work, for 5 - 9 damage a turn.
Use Painful Lesson to refuel your engine and nab another 2 from the opponent. This card also doubles as a search engine for your winconditions.
End the game with Torment of Hailfire when the opponents board and hand is almost empty.
4x Gifted Aetherborn
4x Dreamstealer
2x Noxious Gearhulk
Spells (22)
4x Harsh Scrutiny
2x Duress
4x Fatal Push
4x Lay Bare the Heart
4x Painful Lesson
4x Torment of Hailfire
4x Raiders' Wake
Lands (24)
4x Ifnir Deadlands
20x Swamp
I'll be checking for the correct balance in creature removal and discard spells, also the sideboard need development.
Current must includes are:
Possible additions are:
I'll be testing this rough sketch of my list this weekend but it probably needs some tuning. Curious to hear your remarks and recomendations!
Fetching my three basics and trying to get rid of Blood Moon as early as possible with hand disruption is the best way. If it does resolve, it's only a minor annoiance, and usually a loss of turn three for the opponent.
I Heartfully agree! I play traditional knightfall alongside two other modern builds (Bushwhacker Zoo and my own Abzan Humans). and it's definitely the most challenging and interesting deck to play. It is capable of beating every deck I have encountered so far. Sometimes it's all about drawing your hate cards post board, but often times the non-lineair tempo/contronling nature of the deck is sufficient. Comboing off feels great though!
Love the deck and love the variatious possible lines of play!
My guess is most bant players opt for an eldrazi build nowadays, which it's currently not tiered higher.
So yesterday, with Ixalan being legal to play I did a couple of games with the aforementioned Abzan list on the kitchen table with a friend. The results were very promising. Took on and beat UB Fearies twice and GR Tooth and Nail. 2-0, 20, 2-1 respectively.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Tireless Tracker
Spells
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Concealed Courtyard
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Gavony Township
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Sin Collector
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Big Game Hunter
1 Worship
Some remarks.
The manabase was extremely consistent and pretty pain free. It definitely felt better than BantB/BantR. The deck was also naturally capable to beat trough Blood Moon when fetching basics correctly.
I play 26 creatures to make room for T1 disruption. I Used it every time I could and felt very strong. Never had problems with Collected Company, but technically we lose some value over a large sample size of games.
Our deck is naturally weak to removal/sweepers, so the plan is to disrupt and remove any spot removal spell first, then play a Kitesail Freebooter and take another piece, a sweeper or some sideboard tech. Post board, the follow up Sin Collector is devastating.
As a result, Champion of the Parish is a little less preferred as the one drop. Though one of the strongest line of play was: T1 Inquisition of Kozilek. T2 Champion of The Parish, Noble Hierarch. T3 Kitesail Freebooter, Thalia's Lieutenant.
Evasion on Kitesain Freebooter is great!
Against any counter magic, Cavern of Souls is obviously MVP, but the additional disruption in the deck let's you focus on the other troublesome spells!
The sideboard is a rough, though pretty serious sketch, based on my own experience and local Meta.
What do you guys think of my current take on the humans list?
My current list allready has some black mainboard and a lot sideboard to the point I feel it's realy just a blue splash for Reflector Mage rather than Bant.
I wonder, has anyone ever tried a list without the ranp and exalted triggers of Noble Hierarch?
I'd like your opinion on Voice of Resurgence, or rather the lack thereoff. This is a card I probably won't be able to add in time and the slot is currently occupied by a pair of Selfless Spirit which provide some preasure the air while provide some protection.
The other two drops are 3 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Qasali Pridemage.
Questions:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Reflector Mage
4 Spell Queller
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Negate
2 Stony Silence
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Izzet Staticaster
2 Kitchen Finks
Thank you for your help!
The ceiling is when it enters the battlefield with Metallic Mimic in play, you can stack the triggers in such a way that it becomes a 5/5 trample on turn 3. It's a shame realy that Metallic Mimic doesn't work with Collected Company. It does however work with Thalia's Lieutenant when both are hit off of Collected Company
The floor is a 3/3 trample and in between you have a "lord for one". Not excactly shabby by my book.