Hello, thanks for the reply, see my reply below. In summary, I think you misunderstood what I was going for a bit:
Let me clarify something first: I didn't say this deck was weak against UW Control, I was making the point that artifact prison decks are usually weak vs control, and turned to this deck as a prison deck that can perform well in the matchup, as I believe that Tezz and Thopter/Sword are great against UW. I have played this deck in the past, a full year ago I was playing it in the PPTQ circuit and won a large PPTQ with it. I eventually came off it as I am a Grixis Control player at heart, but am revisiting it as I think it might be an interesting meta deck right now.
On artifact count, I specifically wanted to make turn 1 Mox Opal and Glimmervoid reliable. I wasn't trying to force up the artifact count in this deck in general overall. This is because I love painless mana and the flexibility of these lands, and think that Mox Opal is the most powerful card in the deck. In the past my old builds were closer to your current build, and I found that Opal usually came online on turn 2, which is not powerful. To that end I wanted to maximise the number of cmc 0-1 artifacts. I also didn't want to run mainboard cards that are soft to UW, so I picked spellbomb as it can cycle (which also makes hitting land drops more reliable in a pinch)
I understand what you are saying on card quality, the problem with that view is that I am approaching this build as a prison build first and foremost. I want to maximise my whir targets, and the only artifact that I would even begin to question for its effect (ignoring card type) is spellbomb, but in the context of this being an ensnaring bridge deck (which I see as a strength to be maximised, not a weakness/crutch to be compensated for) I am excited by the card because the effect and rate are perfect. I don't need more from my removal spell than a shock because bridge covers everything else and this card cycles, helping the deck to be more consistent and meaning it is not a crap card (like push) against control. I also like that I can get it out of my hand before I need to call upon it
My aim is not to build around the combo, only to have access to it in the matchups where it is good. In my experience of modern the combo is usually but not always good enough. The top 10 decks are <40% of the meta combined and bridge isn't bad against even any of those. I like having 4 bridges as it frees up my whirs for things like the combo when it is good, and bridge is never bad.
Yeah ok on typical cards. I wanted to sideboard jar as again I am trying to snipe control Jar also isn't as good here as other prison decks as we don't run Tolaria West/explosives/main chalice/Tezzeret the Seeker so I don't mind seeing it go form the main
I think the beauty of spellbomb is that mana isn't stretched with enough cheap artifacts and I don't want removal, only bridge. Spellbomb kills the only creatures that ruin the bridge plan (noble hierarchs, freebooter, meddling mage, etc.) Already mentioned that I rate cycling very highly and have tended to use it more than the 2 dmg mode as removal is usually unnecessary. This is why a deck like U/R Prison doesn't need removal
My Moxes are more reliably on than normal remember, I think it's fairly reasonable to count them as legend-ruling myself isn't such a bad thing. I was considering this to be 21 blue sources in deck-building for that reason. Agreed it is something I should monitor and could considering cutting back on Academy Ruins for an Island or something.
In summary, i think your criticisms come from you wanting this to be a Thopter/Sword deck and me just wanting a prison deck with access to some ways to apply pressure. There was a time when I was on 2 Bridges in this archetype and in that world I'd lower my Mox and artifact count down towards 22 and follow your suggestions in general I think. Looking at the problems of the deck:
Agreed. I think that trying to out-compete the combo decks here is not realistic for this deck, without major sacrifices. Focusing on being a good bridge deck does however let you beat the degenerate starts of decks like Hollow One, Bridgevine, Bogles and elves though. My approahc to this problem is to dodge the spell-based combo decks or hope to get lucky. With my build I also have to dodge Tron.
Agreed. I am specifically targeting a meta full of Hollow One, Bridgevine, UW and Humans with my build, and not much else, which may help to explain some of my card choices.
I think that my build doesn't suffer from this problem as the only truly weak artifacts are narrow ones like witchbane orb / grafdiggers cage in matchups where they suck and the ones that cycle... But they cycle so I am basically increasing the density of really good cards by using them. I find that needle effects generally more than justify themselves. Especially post-board I tihnk our top-decks tend to be insanely good as many of our hits are extremely powerful
Hello everyone, it's been a long time since I've been in on this deck, but I shared all my thoughts on it on Reddit, and would love to know what you guys think about where I am at with the archetype. I feel like Pyrite Spellbomb is an all-star right now: LINK
So I've not tested this yet but I've been wracking my mind for a SB card that can actually deal with tron. Everything we have in the cardpool is too slow and my attempt at countering everything they play fails because we need to tap out to pressure them in a significant way.
What about one or two copies of
Commandeer? If we grab a t3 Karn with it that is game over, right? Next turn hit a land and still have Karn??
I think with serums/tezzes/whirs/foundries we would have enough blue to have the requisite pitch cards.
Just wondering if anyone's ever tried it.
I used to play Mono-U Delver. It doesn't cut it. You might get the once, then they just play around it, making sure their t3 play is something like wurmcoil or worldbreaker. It's sweet and feels great to pull off but you only get someone once, and sometimes if their first threat isn't karn, not even once. I You can probably support it but the card isn't amazing, and we also don't have blue cards other than visions we can really afford to pitch anyway.
Hi guys, I got the decklist featured in instant deck tech my Seth of MTGGoldfish, after writing to Seth and asking if he would, so that's pretty sweet
I wanted to say that I looked at @Molz7 video on page 51 and mostly agree with him. So this is the list I'm running right now and took to a PPTQ on Sunday:
I went 4-2 in the 51-man PPTQ needing 13 points to top 8, but I was extremely happy as my only 2 match losses saw me mulligan to 5, keeping weak 5s and losing that way. Ever match where I had keepable hands I won. I beat Grixis shadow, eldrazi tron, abzan midrange, and tribal flames Death's Shadow. I lost to burn and and GB elves. In general I feel I got lucky against tron (had time sieve and combo g2-3, and extremely unlucky in both my losses. I've also played 1 competitive league with this version and went 4-1, only losing to poor sideboarding against affinity ( a usually near-unlosbale matchup).
Some points I'd like to make:
I used to feel like we needed to get lucky vs Grixis shadow (other variants were always fine), but removing herald and the conflict between wanting to cut prisms/opals and bring in heralds is a big plus. Chalice as an alternate sb card is a big deal, as the deck cant beat chalice on 1. Basically, we're left with every card being very impactful in the matchup and with all of their cantrips, redundant fatties, etc. we just have way more cards that matter, and it now feels very good
I generally only struggle against tron variants now. While eldrazi torn is more winnable, it seems like we need them to stumble to win, and need time sieve, but we beat all the other tier 1 decks so I'm ok with this.
Is chalice just for burn, storm, DS? It seems kinda lacklustre against affinity to me as we want all our 0 drop to stay in vs them. Any thoughts?
I like Liliana. It is great with bridge g1, good in grindy matchups, good against shadow, and just helps with yet another alternate win-con which some people seem to want.
I feel like my manabase makes UW control easy. without glimmervoids/spire ghost quarter wrecks the decay plan. As far as I see it the damage from spire comes up more than the downside of glimmervoid, but maybe that's just me. I find we have more keepable hands with glimmervoid and it helps the burn matchup stay favourable. It hurts the shadow matchup but I still feel safe there with the sb changes aforementioned.
That's all that comes to mind now. I am really liking the deck and expect a lot from my remaining PPTQs. I came 2nd and 3rd in two other PPTQs on Grixis control, so the fact that I'm switching to this deck hopefully shows how pumped I am for it.
I am happy to talk sideboards, gameplay, etc. with any one if they're up for it. I'm based in Australia so will be on at weird times for you lot I imagine.
I generally don't post in forums but just thought I'd give a quick write up in light of my recent testings with the deck on MTGO, especially seeing as I read this forum closely. I am running a very standard list:
Anyway, I am very happy with the standard build and have the following results from the 5 competitive leagues I have played so far:
4-1
4-1
4-1
1-3 drop
5-0
One of my 4-1's saw me punt in my loss, and I played very badly in my 1-3 drop. In fact, I have caught myself making mistakes in the majority of matches that I play. Let me provide a quick write-up of my 5-0 (achieved yesterday)
Round 1: Affinity 2-1.
I find affinity to be an extremely easy match-up. Pithing Needle, Thopter/Sword and Ensnaring Bridge are all excellent here, and both inquisition and collective brutality are effective at slowing them down/emptying my hand for bridge. Game 1 I inquisitioned then combo'd him out quickly. Game 2, I was on a mul to 6 with four lands and a bridge, drew two more lands and couldn't empty my hand. Perhaps should have gone to 5. Game 3 was very easy with needle, bridge and the combo all available. Never cast bridge as there was no need. Almost no side-boarding is needed here although Pithing Needle and Abrupt Decay are both good. Our plan A is so good here though that I'm hesitant to cut anything beyond Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Round 2: Burn 2-0:
My opponent had fast draws both games, and I was on the draw. Play/draw is huge in this matchup but both games I had natural thopter/sword and 3 mana sources in my opener. Often this isn't enough on the draw but inquisition helped get me there. Nothing worth nothing here other than I punted hard and nearly lost because of it: Never 3 mode a collective brutality vs a swiftspear and one tapped land on an empty board. Opponent drew land into Eidolon, and without another answer to it I very nearly lost what would have been an easy game had I just played to the combo and saved my brutality for Eidolon.
Round 3: Grixis Shadow: 2-1:
This is a matchup in which I feel we are heavily unfavored, and the main reason I've been taking Grixis Control to local PPTQs and not this deck. I was fortunate that in two games my opponent had hands heavy on lands, whereas I had threat-dense (redundancy of combo pieces) in hand. I have not figured out how to sideboard in this matchup yet, and have been bringing in Nihil SpellbombAbrupt Decay and Herald of Anguish while trimming some Mishra's Bauble, and a couple of Pentad PrismMox Opal and Pithing Needle. I am not altogether happy with my plan for the matchup post-SB and would appreciate thoughts on what to cut. I hate the idea of cutting my accelerantes while adding in anguish and green spells, but in practice it has been ok so far.
Round 4: Titan Shift: 2-1:
This matchup I am unsure about. With a bridge and Thopter/Sword out by the time e hit Prime Time I was able to out-race in game 1. I landed a Witchbane Orb in response to his first Valakut triggers in game 2, and was able to take two extra turns in a row with Thopter/Sword and Time Sieve in game 2 although him fetching from a fetch-land and a Sakura-Tribe Elder killed just enough thopters (by one) to halt my combo after I failed to topdeck an artifact to get the combo back on line (forced me to sac all artifacts but foundry and Sieve). Game 3 I won very quickly with turn 3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas swing for 5, turn 4 swing for 10 on the play. I initially felt this matchup was unwinnable but this is only the second time I've played it and it's felt fine, so I am now unsure. I did bring in Quicksilver Fountain but view this as more of a fun-of than anything. It is decent here, although Ensnaring Bridge, Witchbane Orb and the combo with Time Sieve seem more important. Have never tried racing to fountain though.
Round 5: UW Control: 2-0:
This matchup is pretty easy. Between Abrupt Decay for stony and sometimes Detention Sphere (although I usually find this unnecessary) and Pithing Needle on Jace, Architect of Thought I find that they just do not have enough relevant cards. Just play around countermagic and coast to victory.
I know this isn't much detail, but my main point is that while playing sub-optimally I've very consistently done very well in the 5 competitive leagues I've played with the deck. I wanted to try Liliana of the Veil as a 2 of, purely because of how good it is in the format right now but I'm not convinced it's worth subtracting anything from what feels like such a streamlined build. I'll certainly be keeping to this shell for the time being.
Let me clarify something first: I didn't say this deck was weak against UW Control, I was making the point that artifact prison decks are usually weak vs control, and turned to this deck as a prison deck that can perform well in the matchup, as I believe that Tezz and Thopter/Sword are great against UW. I have played this deck in the past, a full year ago I was playing it in the PPTQ circuit and won a large PPTQ with it. I eventually came off it as I am a Grixis Control player at heart, but am revisiting it as I think it might be an interesting meta deck right now.
In summary, i think your criticisms come from you wanting this to be a Thopter/Sword deck and me just wanting a prison deck with access to some ways to apply pressure. There was a time when I was on 2 Bridges in this archetype and in that world I'd lower my Mox and artifact count down towards 22 and follow your suggestions in general I think. Looking at the problems of the deck:
I used to play Mono-U Delver. It doesn't cut it. You might get the once, then they just play around it, making sure their t3 play is something like wurmcoil or worldbreaker. It's sweet and feels great to pull off but you only get someone once, and sometimes if their first threat isn't karn, not even once. I You can probably support it but the card isn't amazing, and we also don't have blue cards other than visions we can really afford to pitch anyway.
I wanted to say that I looked at @Molz7 video on page 51 and mostly agree with him. So this is the list I'm running right now and took to a PPTQ on Sunday:
3 Collective Brutality
4 Serum Visions
4 Whir of Invention
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sword of the Meek
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Thopter Foundry
1 Welding Jar
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Glimmervoid
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins
1 Spire of Industry
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Defense Grid
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Time Sieve
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Witchbane Orb
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
I went 4-2 in the 51-man PPTQ needing 13 points to top 8, but I was extremely happy as my only 2 match losses saw me mulligan to 5, keeping weak 5s and losing that way. Ever match where I had keepable hands I won. I beat Grixis shadow, eldrazi tron, abzan midrange, and tribal flames Death's Shadow. I lost to burn and and GB elves. In general I feel I got lucky against tron (had time sieve and combo g2-3, and extremely unlucky in both my losses. I've also played 1 competitive league with this version and went 4-1, only losing to poor sideboarding against affinity ( a usually near-unlosbale matchup).
Some points I'd like to make:
That's all that comes to mind now. I am really liking the deck and expect a lot from my remaining PPTQs. I came 2nd and 3rd in two other PPTQs on Grixis control, so the fact that I'm switching to this deck hopefully shows how pumped I am for it.
I am happy to talk sideboards, gameplay, etc. with any one if they're up for it. I'm based in Australia so will be on at weird times for you lot I imagine.
I generally don't post in forums but just thought I'd give a quick write up in light of my recent testings with the deck on MTGO, especially seeing as I read this forum closely. I am running a very standard list:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
2 River of Tears
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Welding Jar
4 Whir of Invention
3 Mox Opal
3 Collective Brutality
4 Serum Visions
1 Pithing Needle
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Herald of Anguish
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Quicksilver Fountain
1 Torpor Orb
1 Defense Grid
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Time Sieve
Anyway, I am very happy with the standard build and have the following results from the 5 competitive leagues I have played so far:
4-1
4-1
4-1
1-3 drop
5-0
One of my 4-1's saw me punt in my loss, and I played very badly in my 1-3 drop. In fact, I have caught myself making mistakes in the majority of matches that I play. Let me provide a quick write-up of my 5-0 (achieved yesterday)
Round 1: Affinity 2-1.
I find affinity to be an extremely easy match-up. Pithing Needle, Thopter/Sword and Ensnaring Bridge are all excellent here, and both inquisition and collective brutality are effective at slowing them down/emptying my hand for bridge. Game 1 I inquisitioned then combo'd him out quickly. Game 2, I was on a mul to 6 with four lands and a bridge, drew two more lands and couldn't empty my hand. Perhaps should have gone to 5. Game 3 was very easy with needle, bridge and the combo all available. Never cast bridge as there was no need. Almost no side-boarding is needed here although Pithing Needle and Abrupt Decay are both good. Our plan A is so good here though that I'm hesitant to cut anything beyond Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Round 2: Burn 2-0:
My opponent had fast draws both games, and I was on the draw. Play/draw is huge in this matchup but both games I had natural thopter/sword and 3 mana sources in my opener. Often this isn't enough on the draw but inquisition helped get me there. Nothing worth nothing here other than I punted hard and nearly lost because of it: Never 3 mode a collective brutality vs a swiftspear and one tapped land on an empty board. Opponent drew land into Eidolon, and without another answer to it I very nearly lost what would have been an easy game had I just played to the combo and saved my brutality for Eidolon.
SB in Witchbane Orb and 2 Abrupt Decay for Pithing Needle and two Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Round 3: Grixis Shadow: 2-1:
This is a matchup in which I feel we are heavily unfavored, and the main reason I've been taking Grixis Control to local PPTQs and not this deck. I was fortunate that in two games my opponent had hands heavy on lands, whereas I had threat-dense (redundancy of combo pieces) in hand. I have not figured out how to sideboard in this matchup yet, and have been bringing in Nihil Spellbomb Abrupt Decay and Herald of Anguish while trimming some Mishra's Bauble, and a couple of Pentad Prism Mox Opal and Pithing Needle. I am not altogether happy with my plan for the matchup post-SB and would appreciate thoughts on what to cut. I hate the idea of cutting my accelerantes while adding in anguish and green spells, but in practice it has been ok so far.
Round 4: Titan Shift: 2-1:
This matchup I am unsure about. With a bridge and Thopter/Sword out by the time e hit Prime Time I was able to out-race in game 1. I landed a Witchbane Orb in response to his first Valakut triggers in game 2, and was able to take two extra turns in a row with Thopter/Sword and Time Sieve in game 2 although him fetching from a fetch-land and a Sakura-Tribe Elder killed just enough thopters (by one) to halt my combo after I failed to topdeck an artifact to get the combo back on line (forced me to sac all artifacts but foundry and Sieve). Game 3 I won very quickly with turn 3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas swing for 5, turn 4 swing for 10 on the play. I initially felt this matchup was unwinnable but this is only the second time I've played it and it's felt fine, so I am now unsure. I did bring in Quicksilver Fountain but view this as more of a fun-of than anything. It is decent here, although Ensnaring Bridge, Witchbane Orb and the combo with Time Sieve seem more important. Have never tried racing to fountain though.
Round 5: UW Control: 2-0:
This matchup is pretty easy. Between Abrupt Decay for stony and sometimes Detention Sphere (although I usually find this unnecessary) and Pithing Needle on Jace, Architect of Thought I find that they just do not have enough relevant cards. Just play around countermagic and coast to victory.
I know this isn't much detail, but my main point is that while playing sub-optimally I've very consistently done very well in the 5 competitive leagues I've played with the deck. I wanted to try Liliana of the Veil as a 2 of, purely because of how good it is in the format right now but I'm not convinced it's worth subtracting anything from what feels like such a streamlined build. I'll certainly be keeping to this shell for the time being.