I was trying developing a 24 lands kinda manabase with basic count of 2 swamps, 1 forest and 1 mountain. This choice of basic land best play against field of ruin, less painful but its moderate consistant colour fixing. Just want to get you guys some input on it.
The list has 18 black source, 17 green source and 18 red source.
Upon high demand I made a counterpart for my recently published Rock compact SB Guide for Jund as well. So I present you the newest addition to the primer, a compact SB Guide for Jund, which you can download. It features the gauntlet used in the primer as a guide to quickly have access to the ins and outs of a particular matchup. Right now I have linked V1.0, but I will keep it updated. I hope this handy tool will serve you well! You can find the link in the primer.
Good job, but some matchups missed. What about Amulet Titan, Death and Taxes, BW Eldrazi?
I will add those matchups gradually over time depending on their popularity in the format.
Having some doubt regarding siding out Inquisition of Kozilek.
I understand that we are siding out inquisition vs some matchup that will :
1. grind and topdeck war in long game except for blue control decks (midrange)
2. fast and aggro and able to dump hand very fast (affinity)
3. 3cmc & below card are extremely less (eldrazi variance)
But i discovered from the sb guide that is LoK bad against company deck as well? If siding out, how many copy to side out? eg. Counter company, bant company, elves etc.
Its because those matchups are attrition based. Like in the mirror your discard spells are terrible topdecks. You can decide to only cut a few copies (like 2-3) and leave some copies in though. If you do that though, that means you are deciding to not commit to a full grindy gameplan. This would make sense if you feel that your opponent is stronger in grinding (which a deck like GW Company certainly is) which means you are the aggressor then.
Thank you for your fast response, I begin to understand how those attribution deck works, please correct me if I am wrong here.
Their playstyle is most likely midrange swingy deck, play dork and ramp mana turn 2 into 3 cmc threat, and can even choose to go wide to kill opponent without rely on combo-ing and could switch to a value deck where they also could play 2 for 1 value stuff such as Voice of Resurgence, finks, Eternal Witness, Collected Company to bury their opponent.
They could possible play their value cards before turn 4 or 5 and all their hand left with some valueless card or redundant cards. This is where there is a dilemma on Inquisition's role here. Inquisition still isn't bad as it serve turn 1 discard to review information as well as grab a value / combo piece / destroying their next curve. Hence, game 2 we try to reduce 2 copies of IoK but not all of it since we are leaving 4 discard anyway (2 IoK 2 TS) still hope to draw them on turn 1-2 to discard their stuff in early game. But since they are clearing off hand and try to play their stuff few turn later and we are most probably end in topdeck war if we are able to survive from their early swarm with single removals. And IoK is not much relevent here.
Played a lot of Jund for the first time in a while
...I really wasn't super impressed with Trophy. Killing someone with it in the first 3 turns just feels AWFUL. I can see why Reid Duke declared it was just an "ok" card. Playing so extremely fair tonight felt really difficult.
But, hey, over the course of the game I've had the best results with it.
Having some doubt regarding siding out Inquisition of Kozilek.
I understand that we are siding out inquisition vs some matchup that will :
1. grind and topdeck war in long game except for blue control decks (midrange)
2. fast and aggro and able to dump hand very fast (affinity)
3. 3cmc & below card are extremely less (eldrazi variance)
But i discovered from the sb guide that is LoK bad against company deck as well? If siding out, how many copy to side out? eg. Counter company, bant company, elves etc.
What do you guys think about Ancient Grudge? I saw plenty of lists without it and after some thinking I came to the conclusion that it's not very good right now. There's no (standard) Affinity, Hardened Scales Affinity and Lantern which makes Ancient Grudge a lot worse (since these are decks Grudge is the best Against) but I'm not sure about that.
In case I cut Ancient Grudge what could I bring in instead of it?
Side note: I play 1x Nihil Spellbomb in the md (that's why only 1 in the sb).
Another matchup that Ancient Grudge is tron if you have / expect tron player in your store. It can kill Wurmcoil Engine, flashback it again to kill the deathtouch wurm token to let your creature continue to hit them. Without that card, we are really a dead meat when they hit turn 3 tronland and follow by wurmcoil engine.
If you guys are interested, I wrote a guide for building consistant manabases for GBx decks. Here you can see in detail how I do it and what I think about it. Lately people don't pay enough attention to this topic, and manabases are all over the place. If you are interested in being consistant, then I would advice reading this.
Really a good read material for me as a Jund beginner Appreciate for your write-up.
I am agreed on the point that utilization of every single mana to reach the max point of deck's consistency. We should try to play every spell in our hand without leaving any room for unused mana to get value and outgrind opponent as many of our spells are 1 for 1 or 2 for 1, and we are able to do so as every turn we able to hit land drop. No matter how, Jund playstyle is winning mtg game by out-value opponent. With present of red with bolt, BBE and command, we can be on fast and on par with other aggro deck compared to BG rock or other blue control decks.
Just some point in my head, we will need to fix our color first, I would know that first few turn would be painful due to fixing the manabase. If the beginning hand is abit risky and painful, do we still play the spell consistently especially against fast deck such as human and hollow one? We know they will have a fast play, do we start with fetch to thoughtseize? or turn 2 still hit dark confident assume there is no other best turn 2 play?
Just want to know your idea and opinion on consistency VS matchup or risky play.
Hi Jund community, I am new to Jund and just finished build the deck yesterday and has been followed the discussion in this forum for past a week. I was in dilemma of building 24 or 25 lands. FOr now I go for 25 lands first and see how it goes. My Black source 18, Red Source 18, Green Source 17. Does Twilight mire consider Black / Green source?
There is a few play that tested my playing skill, so I share her and lets see what is your decision on this. So this is the beginning 7 cards in hand, and I am on the play.
Bloodstained Mire, Bloodstained Mire, Twilight Mire, Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Bloodbraid Elf, Liliana of the veil
Opponent was a mirror match.
1. Turn 1 go for fetch a basic swamp, cast thoughtseize down to 17 life. Turn 2 twilight mire into bob, Turn 3 put a fetchland and say go or cast LoTV.
2. Turn 1 put a fetchland and say go. Fetch it end of opponent turn. Turn 2 twilight mire and cast Thoughtseize / bob.
I know that turn 1 discard play is very crucial for information and take the best card or their inquisition / thoughtseize. However, It would be painful to take damage at first since I need to fetch for blood crypt, and take the risk of casting turn 2 bob.
Just want to know what is you guys best play on this.
My English is very poor, so I can only reply with Google Translate.
The delve creature and the shadow have always been like a couple who are hard together.And I really hate the instability brought by Thought Scour , and Thought Scour has no bonus for shadow.
Removing the delve creature and Thought Scour can at least keep us from being afraid of the grave hate.
I think bitterblossom is a card that is worth testing in your idea.And this card can also make up for the weakness of the shadow is not good at spending and can not block flying creatures.
I want to try this list
4 shadow
4 Bitterblossom
4 WRAITH
2 Architects of Will
2 tiago
4 serum visions
2 looting
2 secrets
4 THOUGHTSEIZE
4 inquisition
2 KC
2 BOLT
2 dismember
1 push
1 black pact
2 DENIAL
18 LANDS
Thanks for loving my ideas But Bitterblossom is great but it not really fitting the deck for uncontrollable life loss might be backfire at the end. The insane token generating value definitely is a cool idea, so I just decided to give a try on Young Pyromancer as 2 copies.
I saw the inclusion of the black pact. I actually have tried that as 1 copy previous but wasn't like it much. It is best card to tutor for some creature removal for 0 mana and kill opponent with direct 24 damage from Battle Raged Shadow. But when it might sit a very long time in the hand when you are unable to give one shot kill to opponent, and the card really really bad against control deck.
I have build the deck to move away cantrips (Bauble, Serum Vision, looting) as well actually, because these card serve one similar purpose which is SEARCHING FOR THREAT or FINDING ANSWER FOR A SITUATION and I believe it can be done with Mausoleum Secrets. So, I decided to go all 4 secrets and 4 tiago as well. SNapcaster mage really strong with Secrets to find additional thing in the deck.
This doesn't change much from previous Grixis Bauble Shadow. We played path like early discard and backed with Denial. It still goes the same, just Mausoleum Secrets tutor for shadow and it needed to be as big as 4/4 to turn on denial. Well, if you meant that Path that exile creature, and now creature is not in graveyard to enable Mausoleum Secrets but we are turning it on with Street Wraith and the cycling creature anyways.
If you don’t want to be heavy on Delve spells, you should at least play some Pyromancer maindeck. Shadow as your only real threat is definitely a non-sense.
I'm not sure removing the delve threats is a wise decision. However, if I were doing this, I would most likely try to build towards a Bedlam Reveler deck. More Lootings, more red sources and a couple more lands.
Yeah, a bit risky just to play 4 shadow without delve threats. Between young peezy and bedlam reveler, I chosen young peezy and give them a try for 2 copies in the main to see how it goes.
Not seeing delve fatties is weird haha, overall looks nice. Why not play two delve creatures?
The delve fatties everytime eat the whole graveyard especially street wraith, so I dare to try removed all 4 delve threats to go all 4 secrets haha. The deck was still play as "8" threat overall. Just sometime unable to play turn 2 angler/tasigur to pressure the board, but the deck still could perform turn 3 into 4/4 or 5/5 shadow, and secret is absolute beast in lategame that able to tutor for any 3cmc or less black cards.
I have tested variance new thing with Mausoleum Secrets, that card was insane to search for threat, so I give it a try for few test and watch closely for those cards that can be contradict and nonbo.
Those cards are : Mausoleum secrets, delve threat, snappy.
First phase: 4 Mausoleum Secrets, 4 delve threats, 4 snappy - too much rely on graveyard and really scoop vs grave hate. The biggest contradict was secrets and delve threat. For sure delve threat eat up street wraith in graveyard. 4 snap still able to support this play. Hence, -2 Mausoleum Secret and go to phase 2. Hard to fullfill secret's condition by dumping street wraith for turn 3 shadow.
Second phase : 2 Mausoleum Secrets, 4 delve threat, 4 snappy - the play has become a bit smoother than first phase since I have less possibility to draw on secrets. When draw secrets still have the same issue that delve threat eat up almost whole graveyard and left no creature. This time I have a conclusion that delve threat and secrets is really hard to play together, both card in hand at the same time, one can be dead most of the time. The test goes on to next phase, I cut all delve threat and cards that support to delve creature, it might not be correct but I still tried it.
Third phase : 4 Mausoleum Secrets, 4 snappy, 4 architect of wills, 0 delve threat, 0 thought scour, 0 bauble - To be truth, I liked this build a lot. It can be good since the release of assassin's trophy can be hit delve threat pretty bad. This build play 8 shadows and can be consistently hit turn 3 shadow with Secrets in hand. I have make the deck switch to more midrangy than before and surprisingly it can grind well against deck like jeskai control and jund. 3 denial still in the deck because 4 secrets able to tutor for shadow and still easily turn it on. I really like the deck that has become really flexible and able to switch gear against variance of deck.
Flexible cards:
Snapcaster mage, k command, mausoleum secrets
I guess you can give it a try. If really bad, we can still switch it back to old version of this deck Please let me know if you have any opinion or suggestion
Why can't we run 1 or 2 Kessig Wolf Run to deal with problematic flying tokens which mostly probably our weakest match ups?
The list has 18 black source, 17 green source and 18 red source.
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37997_How-To-Win-More-Against-Bad-Matchups.html
Thank you for your fast response, I begin to understand how those attribution deck works, please correct me if I am wrong here.
Their playstyle is most likely midrange swingy deck, play dork and ramp mana turn 2 into 3 cmc threat, and can even choose to go wide to kill opponent without rely on combo-ing and could switch to a value deck where they also could play 2 for 1 value stuff such as Voice of Resurgence, finks, Eternal Witness, Collected Company to bury their opponent.
They could possible play their value cards before turn 4 or 5 and all their hand left with some valueless card or redundant cards. This is where there is a dilemma on Inquisition's role here. Inquisition still isn't bad as it serve turn 1 discard to review information as well as grab a value / combo piece / destroying their next curve. Hence, game 2 we try to reduce 2 copies of IoK but not all of it since we are leaving 4 discard anyway (2 IoK 2 TS) still hope to draw them on turn 1-2 to discard their stuff in early game. But since they are clearing off hand and try to play their stuff few turn later and we are most probably end in topdeck war if we are able to survive from their early swarm with single removals. And IoK is not much relevent here.
May I have your list?
Having some doubt regarding siding out Inquisition of Kozilek.
I understand that we are siding out inquisition vs some matchup that will :
1. grind and topdeck war in long game except for blue control decks (midrange)
2. fast and aggro and able to dump hand very fast (affinity)
3. 3cmc & below card are extremely less (eldrazi variance)
But i discovered from the sb guide that is LoK bad against company deck as well? If siding out, how many copy to side out? eg. Counter company, bant company, elves etc.
Another matchup that Ancient Grudge is tron if you have / expect tron player in your store. It can kill Wurmcoil Engine, flashback it again to kill the deathtouch wurm token to let your creature continue to hit them. Without that card, we are really a dead meat when they hit turn 3 tronland and follow by wurmcoil engine.
Really a good read material for me as a Jund beginner
I am agreed on the point that utilization of every single mana to reach the max point of deck's consistency. We should try to play every spell in our hand without leaving any room for unused mana to get value and outgrind opponent as many of our spells are 1 for 1 or 2 for 1, and we are able to do so as every turn we able to hit land drop. No matter how, Jund playstyle is winning mtg game by out-value opponent. With present of red with bolt, BBE and command, we can be on fast and on par with other aggro deck compared to BG rock or other blue control decks.
Just some point in my head, we will need to fix our color first, I would know that first few turn would be painful due to fixing the manabase. If the beginning hand is abit risky and painful, do we still play the spell consistently especially against fast deck such as human and hollow one? We know they will have a fast play, do we start with fetch to thoughtseize? or turn 2 still hit dark confident assume there is no other best turn 2 play?
Just want to know your idea and opinion on consistency VS matchup or risky play.
Currently my list is as per below.
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Treetop Village
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Assassin's Trophy
1x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Bloodbraid Elf
3x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (5)
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Collective Brutality
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Tireless Tracker
There is a few play that tested my playing skill, so I share her and lets see what is your decision on this. So this is the beginning 7 cards in hand, and I am on the play.
Bloodstained Mire, Bloodstained Mire, Twilight Mire, Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Bloodbraid Elf, Liliana of the veil
Opponent was a mirror match.
1. Turn 1 go for fetch a basic swamp, cast thoughtseize down to 17 life. Turn 2 twilight mire into bob, Turn 3 put a fetchland and say go or cast LoTV.
2. Turn 1 put a fetchland and say go. Fetch it end of opponent turn. Turn 2 twilight mire and cast Thoughtseize / bob.
I know that turn 1 discard play is very crucial for information and take the best card or their inquisition / thoughtseize. However, It would be painful to take damage at first since I need to fetch for blood crypt, and take the risk of casting turn 2 bob.
Just want to know what is you guys best play on this.
Thanks for loving my ideas
I saw the inclusion of the black pact. I actually have tried that as 1 copy previous but wasn't like it much. It is best card to tutor for some creature removal for 0 mana and kill opponent with direct 24 damage from Battle Raged Shadow. But when it might sit a very long time in the hand when you are unable to give one shot kill to opponent, and the card really really bad against control deck.
I have build the deck to move away cantrips (Bauble, Serum Vision, looting) as well actually, because these card serve one similar purpose which is SEARCHING FOR THREAT or FINDING ANSWER FOR A SITUATION and I believe it can be done with Mausoleum Secrets. So, I decided to go all 4 secrets and 4 tiago as well. SNapcaster mage really strong with Secrets to find additional thing in the deck.
This doesn't change much from previous Grixis Bauble Shadow. We played path like early discard and backed with Denial. It still goes the same, just Mausoleum Secrets tutor for shadow and it needed to be as big as 4/4 to turn on denial. Well, if you meant that Path that exile creature, and now creature is not in graveyard to enable Mausoleum Secrets but we are turning it on with Street Wraith and the cycling creature anyways.
Yeah, a bit risky just to play 4 shadow without delve threats. Between young peezy and bedlam reveler, I chosen young peezy and give them a try for 2 copies in the main to see how it goes.
The delve fatties everytime eat the whole graveyard especially street wraith, so I dare to try removed all 4 delve threats to go all 4 secrets haha. The deck was still play as "8" threat overall. Just sometime unable to play turn 2 angler/tasigur to pressure the board, but the deck still could perform turn 3 into 4/4 or 5/5 shadow, and secret is absolute beast in lategame that able to tutor for any 3cmc or less black cards.
Those cards are : Mausoleum secrets, delve threat, snappy.
First phase: 4 Mausoleum Secrets, 4 delve threats, 4 snappy - too much rely on graveyard and really scoop vs grave hate. The biggest contradict was secrets and delve threat. For sure delve threat eat up street wraith in graveyard. 4 snap still able to support this play. Hence, -2 Mausoleum Secret and go to phase 2. Hard to fullfill secret's condition by dumping street wraith for turn 3 shadow.
Second phase : 2 Mausoleum Secrets, 4 delve threat, 4 snappy - the play has become a bit smoother than first phase since I have less possibility to draw on secrets. When draw secrets still have the same issue that delve threat eat up almost whole graveyard and left no creature. This time I have a conclusion that delve threat and secrets is really hard to play together, both card in hand at the same time, one can be dead most of the time. The test goes on to next phase, I cut all delve threat and cards that support to delve creature, it might not be correct but I still tried it.
Third phase : 4 Mausoleum Secrets, 4 snappy, 4 architect of wills, 0 delve threat, 0 thought scour, 0 bauble - To be truth, I liked this build a lot. It can be good since the release of assassin's trophy can be hit delve threat pretty bad. This build play 8 shadows and can be consistently hit turn 3 shadow with Secrets in hand. I have make the deck switch to more midrangy than before and surprisingly it can grind well against deck like jeskai control and jund. 3 denial still in the deck because 4 secrets able to tutor for shadow and still easily turn it on. I really like the deck that has become really flexible and able to switch gear against variance of deck.
Flexible cards:
Snapcaster mage, k command, mausoleum secrets
The current brewing of mine :
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
1x Collective Brutality
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
Instant (18)
2x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan's Command
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Mausoleum Secrets
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Architects of Will
4x Death's Shadow
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Street Wraith
I guess you can give it a try. If really bad, we can still switch it back to old version of this deck
The list is like how it was in previous post, and I did some minor changes. The current list looked like :
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
2x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Mausoleum Secrets
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Thought Scour
4x Death's Shadow
4x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Street Wraith
2x Faithless Looting
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
The changes could also be -1 Push, +1 LOTV/LtLH
Even a maindeck relic deck can ruin the plan and new tutor left you to find nothing.
I think 4 was too many, 2 might be correct number here.