Someone's been busy. I like the basic premise. The art descriptions are nice and also helpful. It's a wall of text though, really hard to get through. It might be helpful if you broke them into cycles of five in spoiler blocks.
Antola, the Echo2WUBR Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Flying
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may pay 1. If you do, search your library for a card with the same name as that spell, reveal it, and put it in your hand. Then, shuffle your library. 6/6
Antola, the Echo – the ability is nice but not epic enough for the mana cost. A 6/6 flyer is a combat oriented commander to the average player, not a school teacher commander. I like tech commanders, but the body should fit the ability imo. And I agree with Pachuco, it’s more G than R.
Reluculus, the Unfettered2UBRG Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Haste
Whenever a spell or ability has you choose one or more modes, you may choose any number of modes instead. 6/5
Reluculus, the Unfettered – A great ability that does something a 1 artifact could do for 2UBRG. Any color could be justified here, but I think you made the right choice. Like the previous card, I don’t think this will pan out well in reality. By the time I have this insane mana cost, I can be doing better things than choosing multiple modes.
Progenam, the Solipsist2WBRG Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Progenam is indestructible.
At the beginning of your end step, your life total becomes equal to Prethrum, the Solipsist's power. 9/9
Progenam, the Solipsist – Indestructible is slightly too good, but I like ability. The colors are spot on.
Atralcans, the Legion2WURG Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Hexproof
Whenever Atralcans, the Legion deals combat damage to a player, put a token onto the battlefield that is a copy of it.
The "legend rule" doesn't apply to Atralcans. 6/6
Atralcans, the Legion – I’ve seen other people attempt this in the past unsuccessfully. You have succeeded where other have failed. I would take it a step further with “The “legend rule” doesn’t apply to permanents you control.” so that it's meaningful outside of commander. Though arguable, I think one color is out of pie: the R should be B imo.
Prethrum, the Sequester2WUBG Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Prethrum, the Sequester is unblockable.
During your turn, opponents cannot cast spells, activate abilities, or draw cards.
During your turn, opponents cannot win the game and you cannot lose the game. 2/8
Prethrum, the Sequester – Compare to Progenam and the rest, this guy seriously needs more power or the others less (which I think is more likely). The color choice is fine. As long as UBR is in the mana cost, unblockable is acceptable.
I'd like to hear your opinion... I just don't like to hear people say "that's not how I'd do it, so it's wrong"; let alone "that's terrible. Let me make it 3 times as hard to understand... and a wither variant"
:/
Metalcraft was neither elegant or a keyword. :/
Wait... what?
Did someone seriously say that this mechanic's flexibility was a downside? Really?
And Spiritualize is a pretty neat ability... I mean, probably not useful as a keyword, but a nice ability.
Tell that to Resident Evil's zombie dogs. :/
In a fantasy setting, when a minotaur is bitten by a zombie, it would beecome a zombie minotaur. If you don't know this... you scare me.
Actually, it's the paramount "zombie virus spreading" thing... which is why my Zombie "lord" had it. Giving all zombies Deathtouch and Sire - Zombie is a pretty "WIN MORE" ability... and on a 2/2 body, it'll be dead in most cases. But when it works, it works spectacularly.
YOU are saying when something gets turned into a zombie, it loses its abilities. I a saying there are zombies w/ abilities. So there is no flavor to your idea... only loads and loads of reminder text, disappointment, and confusion.
People who tack "Wither" onto every ability shouldn't be DESIGNING MAGIC.
D1: Yo, Mark, I have this great idea: A keyword that makes something untargetable by black spells.
D2: Great Idea! Add Wither to it, and slap it on all the green creatures!
D1: Brilliant! What shall we call it?
D2: Charming.
D1: That doesn't make sense.
D2: Make it double wither.
D1L Outstanding! Charming will be the keyword of the new millenium!
Actually, it's inelegance is well known and not worth discussing. If you're on the "Infect is a good keyword" side of the debate, you're also on the "Raising taxes doesn't bring in more money" and "child abuse never hurt anyone" side of debates.
Originally it was for Vampires... Vampires "Sire" vampires. Some Vampires could even Sire zombies. You could even pass keywords w/ Sire...
Sire - Black Vampire with Flying
Sire - Black Zombie with Wither
Sire - Red Elemental with Haste
Assimilate might work, but only has flavor if it converts things to itself.
I sincerely like the idea of a Vampire who makes zombies, a wizard who traps his enemy's souls in golems, etc.
I'm open to a different word than "Sire", but it should be able to be used for more than one "conversion"... IMO. Otherwise we'll just end up with a dozen Sire variants.
Got me there. I like the unearth mechanic. And the name. But "Zombify" - besides being creature-type specific (to its detriment) is an often reprinted card that represents the staple cost of the ability.
Again... it's taken from the vampire thing. I'm open to a different keyword.
Stop calling things you don't like "opinions". It makes it really hard to talk to you - and I suspect that's what you're going for. You don't want to be proven wrong, so the minute someone says "HEY! That's not right", you go all subjectivist nonsense. "Maybe in YOUR math that's not right!"
I'm not against -1/-1 counters. I'm against making Wample - Trample + Wither; Wying - Flying + Wither, and Proteither - Protection from everything without Wither + Wither + indestructible + unblockable + regenerate: Pay life equal to the number of cards in your hand.
It's inelegant. And you have to know that.
Long story short: If what you're proposing adds a line of text to a keyword, and has nothing to do with that keyword, it's a bad design. Infect was a bad design. Sorry, it was.
Again - calling things you don't like "opinions" doesn't make them not true. And then arguing that my "opinions" are wrong because others disagree... I don't think you actually know what the word "opinion" means.
Once again - when your Zombie bites a birds of paradise, you get a 0/1 zombie bird.
When mine does, i get a 0/1 flying "tap: Add 1 mana to your mana pool of any color you want, including black" zombie bird.
My zombie bird flys, and thus its flavorfully better than yours.
To call that an "opinion" is to be a liar. It's a FACT. And its a FACT WOTC has been aiming to correct since they printed birds that are flying on the card, but not in their text box.
Four years of five custom card design forums and yet only two ignores.
Getting 2/2 Zombie tokens IMO also would be more flavorful than getting the creature back with full abilities.
Agreed. And much, much simpler, elegant, streamlined, etc. Take metalcraft for example, it could have counted any number of artifacts, which would have probably added quite a bit of design and play nuances, but at the cost of streamlined, functional gameplay. Remember, you're designing for the masses as WotC does or if your not, then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks anyways.
The choice to make different Sire versions seems impractical and adds an unnecessary extra layer of complexity.
Unless the ability is streamlined and refitted for all colors:
Spiritualize (Whenever a creature dealt damage by ~ this turn dies, put a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield.)
Zombie infestations aren't about what gets infected. As a classic horror trope, part of a Zombie infestation is that it doesn't care who or what you are. A zombie is a zombie, and part of the horror comes from seeing your friend get infected and turn into a moster just like the rest.
The "infection" seems like it'd be less about what's dying so much as it is Zombie math. Every kill makes them stronger, but it's their numbers that make them powerful. Zombies are all about swarming, not about infecting big guys to take them. (That's a spell a powerful planeswalker might cast, but not what a zombie horde would do.)
2. -1/-1 counters are SOMERTHING ELSE to keep track of, and apparently the infection persists in your mechanic, but if they die later they don't come back.
People who can't keep track of -1/-1 counters shouldn't be playing Magic.
3. Sire - X Y can be done as Black Zombies, Black Vampires, White Angel, Green Lycanthropes, etc. It is a mechanic you can revisit a dozen ways, with lots of flavor.
Lot's of goofy flavor. "Sire" sounds like someone's been gettin' it on, not like they've assimilated you. How about "Assimilate" for a keyword?
Finally, let's face facts, the majority of the extra text there (ignoring the pointlessly too good -1/-1 counts)
More irrelevant opinion (that ironically doesn't ignore the Wither effect). Don't get me wrong, sharing opinions is a huge part of the amateur design/development process - especially the finer points. I just don't want to hear how much you hate -1/-1 counters over and over. If MOON-E can get the point across without being a douche-bag about it, so can you.
is centered around me not being able to have the abilities of the creatures I kill. But they're not MY creatures. So if I can raise a zombie goblin king, I see no reason he shouldn't still give mountainwalk.
Your entitled to your opinion, but it's looking like you stand alone on this one.
In a sense, I see what you mean. But the mechanics necessary to convey "he's not quite as bright as a brain muncher" just requires FAR too much text to be worth it.
And the -1/-1 as signifying ZOMBIE infection is annoying. Yeah, this doesn't really convey "pathogen" so much as it does "when they're dead, they come back"... but, again, the text on my mechanic is simple, flavorful, and functional. The text on your mechanic makes "Protection from X" seem like an elegant mechanic... and its clearly not.
Save us some time and send an email to MaRo about how much you hate Infest because nobody else cares.
The basic premise of the op is a good one. You just have to decide if you want black Zombies or blue Combat-Control-Magic-Clones (which is what Sire really is). Either one is fine, but they aren't the same thing.
Sometimes, sometimes the complexity of a mechanic has outweigh the flavor. While Sire may be perfect flavorfully, it's very complex and hard to balance.
Permanently stealing your opponents creatures and giving them a relevant creature type is both too powerful and too complex of an ability to exist at common. It's fine at rare, and maybe even uncommon, but I don't see this existing at common, especially as a fully blown mechanic.
Sure, you can argue that a 1/1 is only going to take out small creatures, but you're still taking control of other player's creatures, and you can easily double-block or burn to take out bigger ones.
As for flavor, sure you'll never be able to get the abilities to make sense, so why keep them? Part of being a zombie is the mindlessness. Converting creatures makes sense for vampires since vampires are still intelligent beings, so they'd be able to keep their special abilities. Zombies on the other hand strip their victims down to the bare bones, literally.
I would like Zombify if it didn't have wither tacked on. Simply turning dead creatures into zombies works better IMO. You would at least get a creature of the appropriate size, but stripped clean of any unique features.
I am a fan of wither, whatever form it takes. It is an ability I thought of some time before wither was spoiled. I would provide a link, but I've done so before here and it was removed, I assume, because it's a link to another Magic site. But, I see your point.
My objections:
1. It flies in the fact of zombies that have abilities.
2. -1/-1 counters are SOMERTHING ELSE to keep track of, and apparently the infection persists in your mechanic, but if they die later they don't come back.
This strikes me as the horrible Infect mechanic they have now... does too many things too poorly.
3. Sire - X Y can be done as Black Zombies, Black Vampires, White Angel, Green Lycanthropes, etc. It is a mechanic you can revisit a dozen ways, with lots of flavor.
Your mechanic is named "Zombify", but has nothing to do with Zombify the card, and is pretty much the same mechanic as Krovican and Sereph have, but called something different.
Finally, let's face facts, the majority of the extra text there (ignoring the pointlessly too good -1/-1 counts) is centered around me not being able to have the abilities of the creatures I kill. But they're not MY creatures. So if I can raise a zombie goblin king, I see no reason he shouldn't still give mountainwalk.
In a sense, I see what you mean. But the mechanics necessary to convey "he's not quite as bright as a brain muncher" just requires FAR too much text to be worth it.
And the -1/-1 as signifying ZOMBIE infection is annoying. Yeah, this doesn't really convey "pathogen" so much as it does "when they're dead, they come back"... but, again, the text on my mechanic is simple, flavorful, and functional. The text on your mechanic makes "Protection from X" seem like an elegant mechanic... and its clearly not.
I have another idea:
Hoep (Common) 2GG
Creature - Troll Avatar
1/1
Deathtouch
Sire - Green Troll (Whenever a creature dealt is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it was damaged by ~ this turn, return it to the battlefield under your control. It is a green Troll in addition to its other types and colors.)
Also, zombification is a pretty detrimental process. I doubt someone like Rafiq of the Many would be just as powerful after becoming a zombie. (At very least, take away the abilities of the creature.)
I think they could be just as powerful, but in a twisted, mirror image type of way. But that would be beyond the scope of a card game outside of designing specific cards - Balthor the Stout/Balthor the Defiled, etc. See my solution below.
I don't think any mechanic can convey infection better than -1/-1 counters did in Scars/Shadowmoor.
Same here. But I like Hope's basic idea here. How about a combination:
Zombify (This deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters. Whenever a non-Zombie creature dies, if it was damaged by ~ this turn, return it to the battlefield under your control as a black Zombie with no abilities.)
Man, I like this idea. I might use it myself. The only thing is, it isn't color neutral or even race neutral - it's definitely a black Zombie thing.
The OP speaks of siring all kinds of things, but he thread title asks how to do a Zombie Infestation. So this is my answer.
Sire could work, but it would have to be a completely different flavor. Something like a five color Simic-style-rampant-genetic-mutator-biowarpy-thing:
Mutate (This deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters. Whenever a creature dies, if it was damaged by ~ this turn, return it to the battlefield under your control as a colorless Mutant with no abilities.)
or
Sire Pod 2GG
Creature - Plant
2/4
Mutate (This deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters. Whenever a creature dies, if it was damaged by Sire Pod this turn, return it to the battlefield under your control as a copy of this.)
EDIT: Wow, I may have just stumbled on the very thing I've been looking for with the whole colorless Mutant thing I did a few weeks ago. Anyone remember that?
Rewarding Journey2G
Sorcery - Uncommon
Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library. Then if you control a basic plains, island, swamp, forest, and mountain, put a 6/6 green Wurm token into play.
Thanks. I'm not sure what 6/6 green Wurm tokens have to do with time travel though.
I added Time Lapse and fixed Live and Learn - before it was a klunky enchantment.
Lost to Antiquity (Rare) 4(2/U)(2/U)
Sorcery Runic (Each artifact you sacrifice while casting this spell reduces its cost by the sacrificed artifact’s mana cost. Mana cost includes color.)
Take an extra turn after this one.
Time Travel (Rare) 2G
Sorcery
If you control a land of each basic land type, take an extra turn after this one. Otherwise, search your library for a land card with a basic land type and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library. .
Time Lapse (Uncommon) XUU
Instant
Target player gets X additional upkeep steps after his or her next upkeep step.
Now or Never (Rare) (B/R)
Instant
If a player has exactly 1 life, take an extra turn after this one.
Time Ravel (Rare) 2UU
Enchantment
At the beginning of each player’s upkeep, that player draws ten cards.
Live Long and Prosper (Rare) 1W
Sorcery
If you have 30 or more life, take an extra turn after this one. Otherwise, gain 2 life.
Crucible of Time (Rare) 6
Artifact
Shroud
When Crucible of Time has no charge counters on it, you win the game.
Crucible of Time enters the battlefield with six charge counters on it.
At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a charge counter from Crucible of Time. 3: Put a charge counter on Crucible of Time. Any player may activate this ability.
Backstory
Five heroes visit an ancient ruin, in search of an artifact that is said to grant rare and coveted abilities to any who behold it.
Upon finding the artifact and looking upon it, the heroes are blinded. They were hoping for planeswalker sparks, but the gifts they were given are much stranger.
Rigane the EelWUB Legendary Creature - Merfolk Wizard
When Rigane the Eel enters the battlefield, all opponents reveal their hands. You may search your library for any number of cards with the same name as any of the cards revealed this way and put them in your hand.
You have no maximum hand size.
1/1
Rigane should probably not search for lands or at least not basic lands. It might be a bit much if you can search for 10+ lands.
But I prefer this wording:
When Rigane the Eel enters the battlefield, reveal your hand. For each card revealed this way, you may search your library for a card with the same name as that card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
You have no maximum hand size.
This seems W.
W Exilers:
Dispatch
Excise
Gaze of Justice
Path to Exile
Reciprocate
Unified Strike
vs B Exilers:
________
I’m assessing these as four color commanders.
Antola, the Echo – the ability is nice but not epic enough for the mana cost. A 6/6 flyer is a combat oriented commander to the average player, not a school teacher commander. I like tech commanders, but the body should fit the ability imo. And I agree with Pachuco, it’s more G than R.
Reluculus, the Unfettered – A great ability that does something a 1 artifact could do for 2UBRG. Any color could be justified here, but I think you made the right choice. Like the previous card, I don’t think this will pan out well in reality. By the time I have this insane mana cost, I can be doing better things than choosing multiple modes.
Progenam, the Solipsist – Indestructible is slightly too good, but I like ability. The colors are spot on.
Atralcans, the Legion – I’ve seen other people attempt this in the past unsuccessfully. You have succeeded where other have failed. I would take it a step further with “The “legend rule” doesn’t apply to permanents you control.” so that it's meaningful outside of commander. Though arguable, I think one color is out of pie: the R should be B imo.
Prethrum, the Sequester – Compare to Progenam and the rest, this guy seriously needs more power or the others less (which I think is more likely). The color choice is fine. As long as UBR is in the mana cost, unblockable is acceptable.
All around good commanders.
Four years of five custom card design forums and yet only two ignores.
Agreed. And much, much simpler, elegant, streamlined, etc. Take metalcraft for example, it could have counted any number of artifacts, which would have probably added quite a bit of design and play nuances, but at the cost of streamlined, functional gameplay. Remember, you're designing for the masses as WotC does or if your not, then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks anyways.
Unless the ability is streamlined and refitted for all colors:
Spiritualize (Whenever a creature dealt damage by ~ this turn dies, put a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield.)
or whatever.
What MOON-E said. ^
Not a bad idea.
This is totally irrelevant because nigh every creature type has cards with abilities and without.
People who can't keep track of -1/-1 counters shouldn't be playing Magic.
Thanks for sharing, but your opinion of Infect is irrelevant here.
Lot's of goofy flavor. "Sire" sounds like someone's been gettin' it on, not like they've assimilated you. How about "Assimilate" for a keyword?
"Unearth" has as much to do with Unearth as "Zombify" does with Zombify.
And "Sire" is different how?
More irrelevant opinion (that ironically doesn't ignore the Wither effect). Don't get me wrong, sharing opinions is a huge part of the amateur design/development process - especially the finer points. I just don't want to hear how much you hate -1/-1 counters over and over. If MOON-E can get the point across without being a douche-bag about it, so can you.
Your entitled to your opinion, but it's looking like you stand alone on this one.
Save us some time and send an email to MaRo about how much you hate Infest because nobody else cares.
The basic premise of the op is a good one. You just have to decide if you want black Zombies or blue Combat-Control-Magic-Clones (which is what Sire really is). Either one is fine, but they aren't the same thing.
This:
and this:
say it all.
I thought life requirements were increased in Commander for such cards?
I am a fan of wither, whatever form it takes. It is an ability I thought of some time before wither was spoiled. I would provide a link, but I've done so before here and it was removed, I assume, because it's a link to another Magic site. But, I see your point.
I have another idea:
Hoep (Common)
2GG
Creature - Troll Avatar
1/1
Deathtouch
Sire - Green Troll (Whenever a creature dealt is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it was damaged by ~ this turn, return it to the battlefield under your control. It is a green Troll in addition to its other types and colors.)
And Undead Sire.
Unless a powerful planeswalker happens to specialize in necromancy to bolster the effectiveness of his undead horde.
I think they could be just as powerful, but in a twisted, mirror image type of way. But that would be beyond the scope of a card game outside of designing specific cards - Balthor the Stout/Balthor the Defiled, etc. See my solution below.
Same here. But I like Hope's basic idea here. How about a combination:
Zombify (This deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters. Whenever a non-Zombie creature dies, if it was damaged by ~ this turn, return it to the battlefield under your control as a black Zombie with no abilities.)
Man, I like this idea. I might use it myself. The only thing is, it isn't color neutral or even race neutral - it's definitely a black Zombie thing.
The OP speaks of siring all kinds of things, but he thread title asks how to do a Zombie Infestation. So this is my answer.
Sire could work, but it would have to be a completely different flavor. Something like a five color Simic-style-rampant-genetic-mutator-biowarpy-thing:
Mutate (This deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters. Whenever a creature dies, if it was damaged by ~ this turn, return it to the battlefield under your control as a colorless Mutant with no abilities.)
or
Sire Pod
2GG
Creature - Plant
2/4
Mutate (This deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters. Whenever a creature dies, if it was damaged by Sire Pod this turn, return it to the battlefield under your control as a copy of this.)
EDIT: Wow, I may have just stumbled on the very thing I've been looking for with the whole colorless Mutant thing I did a few weeks ago. Anyone remember that?
It has shroud?
@secret: Are you saying it should be a split card? That is kinda cool.
Thanks Megiddo.
Changed the white one's name.
RR
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
R: You decide if enchanted creature attacks or blocks this turn.
Thanks. I'm not sure what 6/6 green Wurm tokens have to do with time travel though.
I added Time Lapse and fixed Live and Learn - before it was a klunky enchantment.
4(2/U)(2/U)
Sorcery
Runic (Each artifact you sacrifice while casting this spell reduces its cost by the sacrificed artifact’s mana cost. Mana cost includes color.)
Take an extra turn after this one.
Time Travel (Rare)
2G
Sorcery
If you control a land of each basic land type, take an extra turn after this one. Otherwise, search your library for a land card with a basic land type and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library. .
Time Lapse (Uncommon)
XUU
Instant
Target player gets X additional upkeep steps after his or her next upkeep step.
Now or Never (Rare)
(B/R)
Instant
If a player has exactly 1 life, take an extra turn after this one.
Time Ravel (Rare)
2UU
Enchantment
At the beginning of each player’s upkeep, that player draws ten cards.
Live Long and Prosper (Rare)
1W
Sorcery
If you have 30 or more life, take an extra turn after this one. Otherwise, gain 2 life.
Crucible of Time (Rare)
6
Artifact
Shroud
When Crucible of Time has no charge counters on it, you win the game.
Crucible of Time enters the battlefield with six charge counters on it.
At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a charge counter from Crucible of Time.
3: Put a charge counter on Crucible of Time. Any player may activate this ability.
(B/R)(B/R)(B/R)
Enchantment
Sacrifice a creature: Regenerate all creatures you control.
Rigane should probably not search for lands or at least not basic lands. It might be a bit much if you can search for 10+ lands.
But I prefer this wording:
When Rigane the Eel enters the battlefield, reveal your hand. For each card revealed this way, you may search your library for a card with the same name as that card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
You have no maximum hand size.