Had a game last night with my Meren deck that really featured Mazirek, with the big insect, Altar of Dementia, and Syr Konrad, the Grim out along with some other creatures, and Blight Mound. In response to an opponent's attempt to reanimate something nasty, I began sacrificing stuff to Dementia to mill him more for two reasons: players were lowish on life, and he was the most creature-dense deck, and I knew he had an Eldrazi titan, which would blank the reanimation. My critters were already kind of big due to having Mazirek out for a turn cycle with some sacrificing, but I was able to mill for about 40 cards, which both hit the titan AND enough creatures to just kill the table anyway.
I don't see anyone running Altar of Dementia alongside Mazirek, but as a sac outlet for 2 mana that can either stock your own graveyard or heavily mill an opponent's, I've always really liked it. Syr Konrad is another card I'm not seeing a lot of these running, yet is a very strong finisher.
I haven't played Eddy in quite a while, but wanted to chime in on two cards being discussed.
I run Esper Sentinel in my Queen Marchesa deck, and it's ranges from mediocre to fantastic depending upon how early it comes down, and whether or not I can increase its power. In this deck, I don't think I'd run it, since it has 0 synergy with anything else, and is unlikely to get pumped. That aside, The real closest comparisons to this card are Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora, two AMAZING cards. And while this isn't quite as good as either, it's still super strong in my experience. I wouldn't sleep on this.
Florian I've tested a little on Brawl both as the commander of a deck and in the 99. While he's not stellar to drop on turn 3 after playing a land, if you can drop him before making your land for the turn, it's almost always a land fetch unless you see something else playable. After that, he sees a TREMENDOUS number of cards. Blue players have been playing cards that look at the top X of the library and put 1 or 2 in their hand for a long time, and are generally paying 2-7 mana for the effect. This is a 3/3 First Strike with synergy that can look at a larger selection of cards every turn. For a deck that wants to be aggressive and keep generating card advantage, this seems like it would be a great fit.
I use Jokulhaups as a wincon more than simply a boardwipe.
Personally, I'm not a fan of Chain Reaction, since it too often doesn't kill what you need it to, and I can't think of a situation where Damnation is worse for this deck (it's not like we're running some high-toughness pieces that NEED to not die). I like Toxic Deluge, because it's cheaper, can kill indestructible creatures and those with regeneration, and also acts as a dial for lowering our life total when needed. That said, I've also been in spots where I couldn't play it, but that's what things like Jok, Damnation, and Cyclonic Rift are for.
I had Pilgrim's Eye in my build for a while, but as my mana base evolved, I found that I simply didn't have enough basics to feel like running both that and Solemn were worthwhile, so I cut the less valuable card.
As far as boardwipes.dec Marchesa goes...that definitely could be a thing. Wiping the board almost always puts us in a better position than the rest of the table, and I run Jokulhaups as a finisher to that end. Some people get upset about it, but not too many, since I generally am not nuking the lands and then making the game drag on for another 20 turns, but rather using that opening to finish people off.
Creation's combat "evasion" doesn't strike me as being very good. It can't be blocked by creatures power 4 or greater to start, which means most decks can chump it all day, and a some can block favorably, and that's before it gets pumped by the assortment of lords in the list. I think it will be exceedingly rare for a 3/3 unblockable creature to be relevant.
3 mass reanimation spells seems like a good number. I'm trying out Rot Hulk as a sort of 4th, just because he looks cool and is another zombie himself (plus, reanimating him some other way--Havenghoul--is going to be a lot of value).
My 1st EDH deck was built around OG Teysa, Orzhov Scion. Over the years, I've made adjustments, doubling down on synergy, but as I've focused more on synergistic cards, I've ended up in a position where many individual cards are just super weak unless I have some board state.
I had focused on a somewhat controlling build, wanting to lean into Teysa's exile ability, supported by a lot of token production. Dumped some easy life gain on top of that.
Now I'm weighing whether I should swap to another BW commander.
Kind of a shame that we got all these enticing-looking zombie toys from WotS, and almost immediately they feel like they're coming back out.
Reaver is definitely weaker than this, but the 2-for-1 on bodies is still attractive. Not to mention, the cards work well together.
Soul Diviner doesn't have that many targets
How have you found Gisa? She always struck me as being slow, and as a non-zombie, a bit more fragile (dies with Noxious Ghoul around, and doesn't come back with Bidding).
Have you ever used Forgotten Creation's discard ability? I guess with Ilfnir out it would be useful, but in every game I've drawn it, I've had something else to play, and it has always just gotten pitched to a Varina wheel.
Oketra, I've only drawn once, but had to discard it after a few turns of not having the WW to cast it. Personally, I've tried avoiding anything with WW or UU, even with a solid mana base.
So, for instance, I'm running Toxic Deluge rather than Bust or Supreme Verdict. Then again, I haven't brought in Smothering Tithe yet, either.
Why helm this list with Marchesa? My assessment of The Black Rose is that she's a value and attrition engine, allowing you to build and maintain a board state, and gain incremental value by reusing EtB or LtB effects. For a dedicated combo deck, I feel like there are probably better commanders that either act as a combo piece, or help you get to your combo pieces. Here, you have very few pieces that really benefit from having Marchesa around,
I like Puppeteer Clique for that as well. Redcap feels weak in general without a combo, but both Glen Elenda and Clique have relevant effects (and evasion) even without a combo.
Hello everyone! I'm quite new here and I'm very eager to hear your opinion about a specific build of Edgar Markov - I'm trying to build low cost, Ad Nauseam aristocrats deck with Goblin Bombardment, Purphoros, God of the Forge or Cruel Celebrant type of effects as a win-con, while Agro would still be a plan B. Do you have any ideas for such a deck? I think that it requires many 1 CMC vamps with 2+ cost effects that generate me many bodies like Martyr of Dusk or mana (Dark Ritual or Culling the Weak) to go off. My biggest question is "How many sac outlets would be enough?"
I think aristocrats vampires can work for sure, but I'd opt for a slightly more controlling version including at least Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos and the white one (forgot the name). Generally with this style of deck you always want a sac outlet in play and people know (or learn) this and will try to target your sac outlets. Based on experience with another aristocrats style deck i'd say 7-9 sac outlets would be needed to consistently have one available. This does depend on the amount of tutors you will run. As there almost no sac outlets that fit well with an agro strategy I’d opt not to play as many one drops. Having 7-9 'dead' cards does mean your other cards need to be more impactful and I'm not sure if one drops can pull this off. But I haven't built an aristocrats Edgar deck yet so if you end up building one I’d love to hear how it goes
Ow and +1 for adding ritual and culling the weak!
Thanks for responce, my current decklist looks like this: https://archidekt.com/decks/94738. Lately, I'm trying to squeeze in some cards from maybeboard like Bolas's Citadel and testing low-cost ramp in form of Spingleaf Drum might speed up the deck even more.
Also I've no idea what to cut to get more sac outlets like Yahenni, Undying Partisan or if Phyrexian Reclamation and sticking to 4 permanent sac outlets (2 of which are creatures) might be enough.
You absolutely need more sac outlets in a deck that needs one.
Between lands and other outlets, I typically run 8-11 in my decks that need them (Marchesa, Teysa, Meren), and even that doesn't feel like enough sometimes.
Your decklist looks like a hybrid aggro/aristocrats deck, leaning much more on the aggro side, which just seems like a watered-down version of this deck. I've been thinking about building an Edgar aristocrats deck, but if you're going that direction more heavily, you should dump most of the creatures that are only bodies. Vampires as a tribe are set up well for the strategy, since they have several sac outlet creatures that are pretty decent.
I think Talisman of Dominance and the newW/B one are going to be better than the signets, though it's probably worth running all of them. At least all of the ones that produce B. Not sure how I feel about the Azorius-colored ones, since most of the deck is black, though it is nice to get both of our other colors in one spot. I feel like the deck is pretty mana-hungry, so having more mana is never bad, while at the same time, Varina helps alleviate the pain of drawing a mana rock late game when we need gas, by cycling it away on attacks.
Undead Augur we're all in love with, obviously.
Yup!
Generous Gift I want to make some argument about Vindicate, but really, this is just going to be better almost all the time. In my list I have been running Jet Medallion since most of the list is black. There are non-black cards that it isn't helping with though, so it may not be the right call.
Winds of Abandon I think if you're not running Path of Exile it makes little sense to run this. I also think that the deck already has outs against large indestructible creatures with things like Living Death and Noxious Ghoul, not to mention Cyclonic Rift. Cunning Evasion Don't think it's worth it here. Yuriko is another story. Endling Do you find you have mana open to activate something like this very often? Strikes me as being fairly low impact. Force of Despair This looks SOLID, but not sure we need it. I think it's meta-dependent. Rank Officer I'm pretty underwhelmed Silumgar Scavenger There are a few zombies that can get big, that are cheaper. Yeah, this flies, which is a weakness of the deck, to a degree, and it can have haste, but unless you're dropping this then sac'ing the rest of your board to power it up and swing, I don't see it being super-relevant all that often. Etchings of the Chosen I'm torn, but it's an anthem, pseudo-protection, AND a sac outlet. I think individually it's not worth it, but with all those together, it may very well be! I'd want it in my Teysa deck, except I'd want to be able to protect the chosen creature type (Human) rather than have to sac the chosen type (likely Spirit). Fallen Shinobi The way I've been playing, I rarely cast anything before combat once Varina is down, because I want to see what I get off the looting. I think this can be really decent, maybe exciting, but agree that 4/5 mana is a tough spot for this effect. Unsettled Mariner Definitely plenty of strong non-creature permanents here, and especially in my build that this could make challenging to deal with. Not sure How I feel about the casting cost for an early drop, but it could find a slot. Altar of Dementia Yeah. I think it's already pretty easy to fill the yard with Varina, so a self-targeted effect like this isn't necessary, and if you're not going infinite or HUGE with this effect, it's likely not enough to be relevant in an EDH game without additional milling support.
My only problem with Infestation was that it’s hard keeping enough cards in hand to profitably churn with Varina, so discarding cards without drawing hurts. I did have one spectacular game with it though, where I had our Rooftop, Kindred, and something else drawing me cards, and I would pitch two cards to make a zombie and draw two until I hit an actual zombie, cast it, draw 2 and keep going. Drew the whole deck.
Still cut it.
Alhammaret’s I cut. Had it out only once or twice, and it was good, but I found I was never playing it if I had basically any other half decent card in my hand. It probably should be in here, since it helps solve the cards in hand issue.
In my list, I've skipped a few of the cards you have, like:
Skullclamp - most of the creatures have 2+ toughness, so you can't equip and draw without a sac outlet, and the deck doesn't have enough for that to be reliable
Nim Deathmantle - do you find yourself activating this much? without comboing, it never seemed worth it to me, especially in a deck that almost always has ways to spend mana
Ashnod's Altar - other than as a combo piece with Deathmantle, I'd rather have Phyrexian Arena
Eldrazi Monument - I generally don't mind my guys dying, but this is probably worth trying, although as a 5 mana artifact, I think I'd prefer Vanquisher's Banner for the draw
Necromancer's Stockpile - I had been running this for a while, but found that I only rarely had the mana to spend to pitch something
Smothering Tithe - going to be good with your wheels, but I don't run any, and haven't wanted to spend 4 mana just to set up future turns
Tombstone Stairwell - I think I need this!
Black Market - See Smothering Tithe (although, this could potentially lead to even bigger turns than Rooftop Storm, I don't like playing this and then waiting for it to do something)
Open the Graves - I've been debating this, but so far haven't been able to commit to a 5 mana enchantment
Command the Dreadhorde - as good as this is, I'm not sure I would run it ahead of other mass reanimation options
I just started running Ilfnir, but haven't seen him in action yet, and otherwise haven't found a need for wheels. I'll try to put up my list when I have some time later.
Oh, and another reason I prefer Rooftop, is that it combos so well with Kindred Discovery. I've had a few games where I played 5+ zombies on turn 6 putting me way ahead of the table. The only wraths I care about exile or tuck, and few decks run those, so even if there's a board wipe, I'm usually in the best position to bounce back.
I don't see anyone running Altar of Dementia alongside Mazirek, but as a sac outlet for 2 mana that can either stock your own graveyard or heavily mill an opponent's, I've always really liked it. Syr Konrad is another card I'm not seeing a lot of these running, yet is a very strong finisher.
I run Esper Sentinel in my Queen Marchesa deck, and it's ranges from mediocre to fantastic depending upon how early it comes down, and whether or not I can increase its power. In this deck, I don't think I'd run it, since it has 0 synergy with anything else, and is unlikely to get pumped. That aside, The real closest comparisons to this card are Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora, two AMAZING cards. And while this isn't quite as good as either, it's still super strong in my experience. I wouldn't sleep on this.
Florian I've tested a little on Brawl both as the commander of a deck and in the 99. While he's not stellar to drop on turn 3 after playing a land, if you can drop him before making your land for the turn, it's almost always a land fetch unless you see something else playable. After that, he sees a TREMENDOUS number of cards. Blue players have been playing cards that look at the top X of the library and put 1 or 2 in their hand for a long time, and are generally paying 2-7 mana for the effect. This is a 3/3 First Strike with synergy that can look at a larger selection of cards every turn. For a deck that wants to be aggressive and keep generating card advantage, this seems like it would be a great fit.
Personally, I'm not a fan of Chain Reaction, since it too often doesn't kill what you need it to, and I can't think of a situation where Damnation is worse for this deck (it's not like we're running some high-toughness pieces that NEED to not die). I like Toxic Deluge, because it's cheaper, can kill indestructible creatures and those with regeneration, and also acts as a dial for lowering our life total when needed. That said, I've also been in spots where I couldn't play it, but that's what things like Jok, Damnation, and Cyclonic Rift are for.
As far as boardwipes.dec Marchesa goes...that definitely could be a thing. Wiping the board almost always puts us in a better position than the rest of the table, and I run Jokulhaups as a finisher to that end. Some people get upset about it, but not too many, since I generally am not nuking the lands and then making the game drag on for another 20 turns, but rather using that opening to finish people off.
3 mass reanimation spells seems like a good number. I'm trying out Rot Hulk as a sort of 4th, just because he looks cool and is another zombie himself (plus, reanimating him some other way--Havenghoul--is going to be a lot of value).
I had focused on a somewhat controlling build, wanting to lean into Teysa's exile ability, supported by a lot of token production. Dumped some easy life gain on top of that.
Now I'm weighing whether I should swap to another BW commander.
Token Production
1 Bitterblossom
1 Ophiomancer
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Oketra's Monument
1 Xathrid Necromancer
1 Elenda, the Dusk Rose
1 Anounted Procession
1 Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
1 Requiem Angel
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Regna, the Redeemer
Removal
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Aura of Silence
1 Utter End
1 Return to Dust
1 Austere Command
1 Merciless Eviction
Lifegain
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Soul's Attendant
1 Soul Warden
1 Ajani's Welcome
1 Authority of the Consuls
1 Suture Priest
Sac Outlets
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Viscera Seer
1 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
1 Priest of Forgotten Gods
1 Cartel Aristocrat
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Blasting Station
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Land Tax
1 Sol Ring
1 Expedition Map
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Boreas Charger
Recurrable Fodder
1 Nether Traitor
1 Reassembling Skeleton
Draw
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Skullclamp
1 Dark Prophecy
1 Necropotence
1 Smothering Abomination
1 Krav, the Unredeemed
1 Bolas's Citadel
Recursion
1 Revival//Revenge
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Animate Dead
1 Obzedat's Aid
1 Karmic Guide
1 Reveillark
1 Sun Titan
1 Debtor's Knell
Tutors
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Recruiter of the Guard
Drain
1 Blood Artist
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Cruel Celebrant
1 Teysa Karlov
1 Meekstone
Lands
1 Godless Shrine
1 High Market
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Marsh Flats
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Command Tower
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Temple of Silence
1 Fetid Heath
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Scoured Barrens
6 Plains
5 Swamp
He's definitely an auto-include.
Kind of a shame that we got all these enticing-looking zombie toys from WotS, and almost immediately they feel like they're coming back out.
Reaver is definitely weaker than this, but the 2-for-1 on bodies is still attractive. Not to mention, the cards work well together.
Soul Diviner doesn't have that many targets
How have you found Gisa? She always struck me as being slow, and as a non-zombie, a bit more fragile (dies with Noxious Ghoul around, and doesn't come back with Bidding).
Have you ever used Forgotten Creation's discard ability? I guess with Ilfnir out it would be useful, but in every game I've drawn it, I've had something else to play, and it has always just gotten pitched to a Varina wheel.
Oketra, I've only drawn once, but had to discard it after a few turns of not having the WW to cast it. Personally, I've tried avoiding anything with WW or UU, even with a solid mana base.
So, for instance, I'm running Toxic Deluge rather than Bust or Supreme Verdict. Then again, I haven't brought in Smothering Tithe yet, either.
What is Aminatou doing for you?
You absolutely need more sac outlets in a deck that needs one.
Between lands and other outlets, I typically run 8-11 in my decks that need them (Marchesa, Teysa, Meren), and even that doesn't feel like enough sometimes.
Your decklist looks like a hybrid aggro/aristocrats deck, leaning much more on the aggro side, which just seems like a watered-down version of this deck. I've been thinking about building an Edgar aristocrats deck, but if you're going that direction more heavily, you should dump most of the creatures that are only bodies. Vampires as a tribe are set up well for the strategy, since they have several sac outlet creatures that are pretty decent.
Yup!
Generous Gift I want to make some argument about Vindicate, but really, this is just going to be better almost all the time. In my list I have been running Jet Medallion since most of the list is black. There are non-black cards that it isn't helping with though, so it may not be the right call.
Winds of Abandon I think if you're not running Path of Exile it makes little sense to run this. I also think that the deck already has outs against large indestructible creatures with things like Living Death and Noxious Ghoul, not to mention Cyclonic Rift.
Cunning Evasion Don't think it's worth it here. Yuriko is another story.
Endling Do you find you have mana open to activate something like this very often? Strikes me as being fairly low impact.
Force of Despair This looks SOLID, but not sure we need it. I think it's meta-dependent.
Rank Officer I'm pretty underwhelmed
Silumgar Scavenger There are a few zombies that can get big, that are cheaper. Yeah, this flies, which is a weakness of the deck, to a degree, and it can have haste, but unless you're dropping this then sac'ing the rest of your board to power it up and swing, I don't see it being super-relevant all that often.
Etchings of the Chosen I'm torn, but it's an anthem, pseudo-protection, AND a sac outlet. I think individually it's not worth it, but with all those together, it may very well be! I'd want it in my Teysa deck, except I'd want to be able to protect the chosen creature type (Human) rather than have to sac the chosen type (likely Spirit).
Fallen Shinobi The way I've been playing, I rarely cast anything before combat once Varina is down, because I want to see what I get off the looting. I think this can be really decent, maybe exciting, but agree that 4/5 mana is a tough spot for this effect.
Unsettled Mariner Definitely plenty of strong non-creature permanents here, and especially in my build that this could make challenging to deal with. Not sure How I feel about the casting cost for an early drop, but it could find a slot.
Altar of Dementia Yeah. I think it's already pretty easy to fill the yard with Varina, so a self-targeted effect like this isn't necessary, and if you're not going infinite or HUGE with this effect, it's likely not enough to be relevant in an EDH game without additional milling support.
Still cut it.
Alhammaret’s I cut. Had it out only once or twice, and it was good, but I found I was never playing it if I had basically any other half decent card in my hand. It probably should be in here, since it helps solve the cards in hand issue.
Skullclamp - most of the creatures have 2+ toughness, so you can't equip and draw without a sac outlet, and the deck doesn't have enough for that to be reliable
Nim Deathmantle - do you find yourself activating this much? without comboing, it never seemed worth it to me, especially in a deck that almost always has ways to spend mana
Ashnod's Altar - other than as a combo piece with Deathmantle, I'd rather have Phyrexian Arena
Eldrazi Monument - I generally don't mind my guys dying, but this is probably worth trying, although as a 5 mana artifact, I think I'd prefer Vanquisher's Banner for the draw
Necromancer's Stockpile - I had been running this for a while, but found that I only rarely had the mana to spend to pitch something
Smothering Tithe - going to be good with your wheels, but I don't run any, and haven't wanted to spend 4 mana just to set up future turns
Tombstone Stairwell - I think I need this!
Black Market - See Smothering Tithe (although, this could potentially lead to even bigger turns than Rooftop Storm, I don't like playing this and then waiting for it to do something)
Open the Graves - I've been debating this, but so far haven't been able to commit to a 5 mana enchantment
Command the Dreadhorde - as good as this is, I'm not sure I would run it ahead of other mass reanimation options
I just started running Ilfnir, but haven't seen him in action yet, and otherwise haven't found a need for wheels. I'll try to put up my list when I have some time later.
Oh, and another reason I prefer Rooftop, is that it combos so well with Kindred Discovery. I've had a few games where I played 5+ zombies on turn 6 putting me way ahead of the table. The only wraths I care about exile or tuck, and few decks run those, so even if there's a board wipe, I'm usually in the best position to bounce back.