I'm still on 4x Manamorphose and I like it for the most part. It more or less works as advertised, even if it's a bit awkward at times (for example, when you're stuck on 1 land). Here are my current issues/concerns with the deck:
1. 12 free cantrips means you have to keep a lot of highly speculative 5s and 6s. I have lost many games due to hands just not panning out after cantripping a few times.
2. The deck is highly subject to variance. I find the perfect number of lands to draw in a game is 3, but it's not uncommon to be stuck on 1 for a while, or to flood out.
3. In line with the above consistency issues, I've found the "wrong half issue" to be the death knell for this deck. It's very easy to draw the wrong type of interaction in a given matchup.
4. I so far believe the deck could benefit from another threat (in addition to 4x Shadow/Goyf). While most would play Grim Flayer for this purpose, I wonder if a singleton Gurmag Angler could be justified.
All that being said, I think a tool like Faithless Looting could be a valuable addition to the deck, at least in theory. Unfortunately, there's just no room for such an effect in Spooly's 4x Manamorphose list, and the card disadvantage is a real problem without being able to effectively utilize the graveyard beyond Delirium. I also suspect that I would want to run 18 lands with Faithless Looting, since I both want to hit my second/third land more consistently, but also want to have something to pitch to Looting later in the game.
That's all I've got. The nut draws this deck produces sure are nutty though.
Edit: my tertiary points of uncertainty are the 2 basics, and my desire to pack a 3rd Stubborn Denial in the main.
I ended up dropping the manamorphose. whilst theoretically a free cantrip I found I ran into lots of issues when to fire it off and make use of it's 'free' factor. Often times you manamorphose for GB and then draw another card you can't cast which feels bad (as then manamorphose just acted like a 2 mana bauble). Also with so many Thalia's around manamorphose feel really bad.
I tested MM with bloodmoons in the board but that also felt like a non-bo at times since it affects your ability to lose life for shadow.
Also found there was a tension between cutting lands for MM (since in theory a cantrip) but also created more mulligans because you have a one land 1-2 manamorphose hands
2) & 3) definitely agree on the variance front, not sure the best way to solve this, this deck definitely needs a way to draw through clunkiness
4) not sure gurmag gets us there given it affects your delirium/goyfs. I was running a Jund version with no splash and found I boarded out flayer most of the time, although I acknowledge my sideboarding may not be optimum. Potentially running snapcaster would be good so you can 'tutor' for a removal/discard spell, albeit in a mana intensive way.
I've been trying to find a way to reduce the reliance on graveyard as RIP or relic essentially creates 8 dead draws in the deck but am abit stumped on this currently.
Also on sideboard what are people thoughts between Grafdiggers vs Nihil spellbomb? I like grafdiggers as it helps more vs hollow one, dredge, company decks but it does disable ancient grudge (which is also good against H1) but find that at times Grafdiggers doesn't cut it against value decks with E-wit or combo like KCI nor does it help with the mirror
I very much prefer nihil spellbomb for the following reasons:
1. Grows the goyf
2. Enables delirium
3. The draw off it can be significant
4. Doesnt turn off our own lingering souls (if youre on white splash)
5. Grafdigger can be removed, where as Nihil can be held in hand until you want to deploy and crack it for just a single mana (given that you surrender the draw)
6. Grafdigger acts more like a floodgate, if it gets removed youre in trouble. Nihil just gets rid of any trouble from the start.
7. For grafdigger to be good you need to draw it early on (preemptively), while nihil is good at any stage of the game.
I have followed the Jund Em In's advices:
18 lands, cut the Whispers,splash blue for Stubborn Denial include TBR (only one because I keep the Ghor-Clan), Dismember and complete the playset of FP.
Unfortunately, in order to have space I was forced to eliminate the Faithless Looting that was (IMHO) a great card for fix and delirium
When I was playing 4c DS I had certain mana problems and it was quite difficult for me to cast Snapcaster Mage with extra mana for the flashback spell. that is because I'm not including the Snapcaster and the reason to include manamorphose [but actually I'm not a fan of this card] (ALTERNATIVE 2 would be to change the Manamorphoses by Faithless Looting)only one land give me BLUE mana, but only use blue for the Denials and one sideboard card (Delay)
15 CREATURES
4 DS
4 Tarmo
4 Street Wraith
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Grim Flayer
PW 1 Liliana of the Veil
RAMP 1 Manamorphose
REMOVAL 4 FP
2 Tarfire
1 Dismemeber
DISCARD 4 Toughtseize
4 IK
TUTOR 4 U Traverse
wincon 1 Temur BR
counter 2 Stubborn Denial
artif. 4 Mishra Bouble
TOTAL 60
SIDE
1 Delay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Back to Nature
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
how do you see this list?
about the SB: I removed the Ancient Grudge because it's not too good for delirium even being great vs. Affinity. do you think Rain of Gore could be an option to consider (against Martyr Life and infinite live combos)? Not very sure about the singleton Delay...
Looks a lot more similar to stock DS lists that have put of good results. I have a few questions/suggestions for you:
1. How has Ghor clan rampager been in your testing? Most people have cut it completely for the second temur battlerage. (Im not exaggerating on how good this card is)
2. The singleton delay could be changed for a third stubborn denial but thats up to you, Denial is a great card and some have had success with it.
3. How was faithless looting in your testing? Some people here have run it with mixed results.
4. Im not a fan of manamorphose either but several players swear by it, would be nice to get some of their input.
5. About the manabase you said you only have 1 blue source. You can remove the basic forest and add a breeding pool. Most 4C lists just run a basic swamp. It will give you better mana fixing but will make you weaker vs path, ghost quarter and fiend of ruin. (our deck is already weak against those anyways)
6. Mosts people dont run snapcaster, those who do run 1 tops, but those who run it run 2 blue shock lands: Breeding pool and watery grave. While you only have a single blue source I wouldnt run snapcaster either.
7. Just noticed you have abrupt decays off the side, would you consider running them in the main? They work as a catch all removal and would be your only answers against artifacts/enchantments.
8. How do you feel about tarfire? Does it put in enough work vs say lightning bolt? I personally dont like tarfire but if it works in your meta then it works.
9. You might want a couple of sweepers in the side, against go wide decks. ( I cant comment much on the side because thats very meta dependant.)
10. Overall you made positive changes to the deck and definitely let us know how it goes.
Heres my list for reference, it might give you some ideas, and feel free to offer any comments or criticism.
Went 3-0 at locals with my stock 5c list (No manamorphose)
R1 Humans 2-0 G1 He mulls to 5 and I keep a decent hand with tarmogoyf and disruption. I sandbag my removal until my opponent tries to flicker a thalia´s lieutenant with resto angel. I push the liutenant and then fetch and push the resto. I overpower him with tarmogoyf. G2 He mulls to 6, I keep a hand full of gas with lots of disruption and lingering souls. We grind and my opponent hits 29 life thanks to an auriok champion I cant remove. while im at 9 life. Lingering souls tokens keep him from attacking. My only large threat is a 5/6 tarmogofy which gets copied by a phantasmal image. I attack and play a temur battle rage on his block to take care of the tarmo copy. Eventually Im down to 2 and I draw my sided radiant flames and sweep for 4 colours thanks to thalia´s tax. I wipe his board and take over the game.
R2 Vizier Elves 2-0 G1This has always felt like a very easy matchup. G1 is a grindfest. Hes on the play. I keep a hand with dismember, thoughtseize, 2 baubles and other disuption but no threat. Im down to than 8 life in the first 2 turns due to, fetches, thoughtseize and a dismember I was forced to play on a mana dork. He keeps playing creatures and cracking horizon canopies to refill his hand while I keep minusing a LoTV, pushing and abrupt decaying his creatures. We are both topdecking with empty fields at this point. Ive been holding a temur battlerage all the game but have no threat. I draw and cast a streetwraith which is the first creature ive had, and allows me to keep up as a blocker while at 2 life. I finally draw a tarmogoyf and start swinging and end up killing him with temurbattlerage. G2He mulls to 6, and I keep a strong 7 filled with liliana last hope, kozileks return, push, goyf, engineered explosives and 2 lands. Needless to say I blow him out with no trouble.
R3 U/W Control 2-1
G1 I feel this is my worst matchup, I always have a hard time winning this matchup with so much land disruption. I keep a 7 filled with 3 discards but no immediate threat. I bring myself down to a low life total but cant find a treat in time. We get to a point where I have to drop a whiff fatal push on his gideon just to turn on delirium and traverse for a shadow, but he has the path and I was removed from my both blue sources with his field of ruins. G2 I keep a 7 with a 2 treats and disruption, I see his rest in peace and discard it turn 1. we trade resources a bit. I stick a 4/4 shadow plays and he plays a timely reinforcements to try and chump block me for days, luckily I had been holding on to a golgari charm which I was intending to use on an azcanta, detention sphere or regenerate from a supreme veredict, but the -1/-1 mode allowed me to clear his tokens and keep putting pressure. We reach a point where I have 2 shadows, a grim flayer and a liliana the last hope on board which is ticking up. Hes at 4 life and I know he has a settle the wreckage, a cryptic command and celestial purge. I start attacking with a single creature baiting out his removals 1 by 1 until he has to use the settle the wreckage to clear a single shadow. Im left with a single deathshadow on board and he topdecks a detentionsphere, but I have the abrupt decay to destroy it and win. G3 I dont remember much from this game but he mulls to 6 and I keep a 7 with 2 tarmos, a shadow, thoughtseize, temurbattlerage and lands. I land a T2 tarmo vs his T3 gideon which prevents damage, I land the second tarmo and start to pressure his gideon. He plays a timely reinforcements and starts to chump block my tarmos. His gideon is up to 8 loyalty. And he has destroyed all my blue sources. I land a 4/4 shadow and eventually kill his gideon. He is forced to play a spreading seas just to draw gas but this turns on my counter. I counter his removal he doesnt draw a sweeper in time and temur battlerage gives me the win.
Highlights: U/W match is incredibly hard and we need to keep hand with treats plus discard if we want a chance. In the past I used to side out temur battlerage red and bring in white with lingering souls but Ive come to find that souls is too slow and doesnt put enough pressure for U/W. They have also gotten rid of my only white source just as I cant my first souls, leaving me with dead souls in hand. By leaving red and TBR in I can leave my red mana in my deck and only fetch for it when I need to play TBR. Golgari charm is a versatile card with many application in this matchup. Our mana base is weak against their many spreading seas and fields of ruins. Im open to any extra ideas and tips approaching this matchup.
15 SIDEBOARD
2 Back to Nature
3 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spellskite
1 Topor Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
I played DS jund before but I changed to 4C DS and I'm returning to DS Jund but I have cut the L. Bolts (by Tarfire) in order to fuel Delirium; because in my experience I'm doing much damage with the Tarmos than with the Shadows normally reserved for final turns, specially if I'm playing versus aggro decks where I must be aware of my life count to avoid the disaster.
Sideboard:
-CB is one of my favourite cards.
I'm trying to find answers when I play versus mana deny startegies (Blood Moon or land destruction) even considening that my main plan is not reactive but linear and fast.
What do you modify?
Thank you in advance
1. You should up your land count, 18 lands is the sweet spot, so it might be good to add 2 more fetchlands.
2. Why arent you running any blue? It costs nothing to splash a watery grave and run stubborn denial, in fact its almost required if you want to beat burn, combo and control.
3. Whispers of emrakul isnt too good, you should replace 2 of those for 2 inquisition of kozilek. Generally our turn 2 should be spend deploying a threat or more disruption. A random discard isnt very much disruptive and by the time you hit delirium you probably want to be traversing, not discarding your opponent.
4. You need to run 2 temur battle rage in the main deck, this is a necessary card and everyone will tell you to run it. Its a card that allows us to win against bad matchups or even win out of nowhere.
5. Terminate can be too mana intensive, you wont always be fetching for red mana, id go up on the fourth push (good in this human meta) and perhaps a dismember would be better in place of the other terminate, less mana intensive and can speed up you shadow.
6. You should look into splashing a 4th colour at least (Blue or white). This deck can easily run 4 colours mainboard, with the 5th colour as a splash in the sideboard. Usually the sideboard color is white with lingering souls to hedge against midrange decks.
I really don't think this deck wants to count on making 4 land drops in most matchups. It simply doesn't benefit enough from playing BBE due to the average cascade hit being much poorer on average than in Jund. You also lose a lot of what makes the deck appealing by excluding 4x IoK. All in all, I think it's possible that this build is even worse against control BECAUSE it is counting on playing the longer game, whereas non-BBE lists can just go under them with a reasonable level of consistency.
I agree with both statements. It looks like a suboptimal list.
So my locals is running a cute experiment with the modern banlist, allowing each player to run just 4 copies of a single banned card from the modern banlist.
(no 2-2 splits of different banned cards). Im planning of running with 5c DS, since im not feeling too good on jund lately (although deathrite shaman is tempting).
Probe would allow quick filtering, life loss and running a 48 card deck; and would serve a similar if not better role than manamorphose?
Misstep just seems bonkers as a card and would allow for some nice tempo plays and out of nowhere counters plus the phyrexian mana is great.
What would you suggest and run if you had to pick between these two?
Ps: I dont have the time to find the cards to build old aggro deathshadow zoo, so im sticking to our traditional midrangy 5c deathshadow.
Personally I think running more than 2 copies of your shockland targets is not necessary, but I think the main reason for including 3-4 is because they can potentially be accidentally discarded away, or destroyed by an opposing Fulminator Mage perhaps. I love Blackcleave Cliffs (in the BR version) and Copperline Gorge (in the GR version) because 90% or more of games we only need 2-3 lands in play to combo off. These lands allow us to get the colors we need without taking damage, which help with Burn, Affinity, & other aggro match-ups.
I run 3 Mountains, 1 Swamp, 2 Bloodcrypt, 3 Blakcleave.
I think that running more than 2 Bloodcrypt is not needed, as the deck can opperate on 1 black mana, so we need only to fetch one. The Mountains and Cliffs are needed to protect our life total against burn.
I am even considering to run the 4th Cliffs over a Mountain, but then i would not have enough fetchable targets for my taste, and we can nolonger board out the stomping ground in matches were it is not needed.
Thanks for the replies guys. The BR version seems it can easily run bloodmoon out of the side, is there any reason this card isnt seen much, or is anyone having success with bloodmoon in the BR version? Is bloodmoon worth in this deck?
Mardu Pyromancer 2-1
Generally a grindfest, a hard game 1, g2 and 3 are much better thanks to lingering souls, lili the last hope, explosives and sideboard cards.
GR Ponza 2-1
Felt like a good matchup, we run enough discard, counters and removal for their arbor elves, bloodmoons and stone rains. Just stay out of bolt range and BBE is a thing.
Grixis DS 2-1
Once again another grind fest, g1 feels bad since their pushes take care of all our threats and snapcaster is a thing, but g2 and 3 we have lingering souls which earned me the win.
In general lingering souls feels much stronger and useful than stubborn denial in this (humans, hollow one, aggro) meta
Hi everyone, I have a question about the manabase.
Ive seen several lists running 2-3 basic mountains, 2 bloodcrypt and 3 blackcleave cliffs. And other lists run 3 blood crypt and 2 blackcleave cliffs. What is the recomended combination and reasoning behind the number of basics and bloodcrypts vs blackcleave?
Ive been running the manamorphose list lately but ive been rather disappointed by it. Its bad vs thalia and makes mulligan-ing much more complex. How is everyone else doing with it so far?
How do you people feel about the boreal druid in ross merriams new list which placed 2nd? Also whats the deal with the singleton Marwyn, what purpose could it serve? Interested in hearing peoples thoughts.
That is 58 cards (I don't have a 4th Lili, that's why the singleton Last Hope). I've been pondering about the last two, here are some options that I'm currently considering:
My meta consists more or less of Burn, ETron, Mardu Pyromancer, Affinity, Storm, and Jeskai Control.
What do you guys suggest as my starting point? Thanks!
Looks good so far, generally any combination of the cards you mention would fit nicely in your 60 main deck as they're impactful 1 for 1 cards.
Remember that theres no set in stone deck list for Jund decks. You should try to tune them as best as you can for a certain meta.
You mention your meta is Burn, ETron, Mardu Pyromancer, Affinity, Storm, and Jeskai Control. So terminate is most likely a sub par card against most of the field. Burn and affinity are better fought with bolt, push, grim lavamancer. Collective brutality generally doesn't get much main deck attention and could be better suited for the side.
Given your meta I would add in the fourth bolt, and the abrupt decay as a catch all plus has more utility vs a search for azcanta or any bloodmoon shenanigans out of affinity/mardu/storm.
Is there any specific reason you run kalitas over a huntmaster or a fourth BBE? Just curious.
Im going to test out the manamorphose builds, but im cutting stubborn denials and blue completely out of the 75.
Stub feels bad with all the humans, hollow ones, jund decks around, and the rest of blue cards in the side were usually to fend off tron, control and big mana decks which are on the down low at the moment. Instead ill be running lingering souls package out of the side which feels better against jund, mardu and humans.
1. Is this thought process right? is stub and blue still good enough to keep in the 75 vs white?
2. How do you usually fare with the manamorphose build when it comes to running 17 lands? Do you ever fall short in hitting your second land? 18 felt good enough to consistently keep 1 landers. Do you even run out manamorphose as soon as you hit 2 lands for the cantrip, without knowing if you can draw into anything to make use of the 2 mana?
3. Im debating if I should keep in 2 lotv or add 2 bolts instead. or if i should scrap that completely and bring back 2 stubs into the main.
New poster to this thread but I've been grinding out leagues with the deck with an above average win rate. Playing pretty close to the pro tour list.
@jund em in
1. It seems anti game plan. Lili is a grindy card, and I'm not sure the slot it would fill. 3 mana cards, especially 2 black sources, can be hard to manage in many games. Liliana looks like it fits, but the deck is most successful when it maintains explosiveness. Liliana is opposite that. What matchups would you want it for?
2. Sacred foundry would be better because it can be main decked. Turn 1 red is critical. There are 12 1 drop red cards. I think this also might be good against graveyard hate.
3. Again, what for? There's not a lot of, "this card wrecks this deck." That we would need turn 1 discard for that can't be answers by other things. Example, ensnaring bridge can be answered with ancient grudge and can be cast with flashback. Holding cards until that third land drop is unreliable at best. Brutality and ancient grudge seem to answer the same things but with more synergy.
Hey Frenchfryninja, thanks for taking the time to reply, most of it makes perfect sense.
1. I was thinking about LoTV in the side, because it can help grindy matchups, anything midrange and control. Anything that just plays 1 or 2 threats. Although maybe im looking at it wrong since im so used to playing grindy and value games and this deck isnt about that. How do we side against midrange decks and control?
2. Youre correct about Sacred foundry, do you think this can be a viable option along with the lingering souls plan against grave hate or grindy games? Or is this idea just too cute?
I very much prefer nihil spellbomb for the following reasons:
1. Grows the goyf
2. Enables delirium
3. The draw off it can be significant
4. Doesnt turn off our own lingering souls (if youre on white splash)
5. Grafdigger can be removed, where as Nihil can be held in hand until you want to deploy and crack it for just a single mana (given that you surrender the draw)
6. Grafdigger acts more like a floodgate, if it gets removed youre in trouble. Nihil just gets rid of any trouble from the start.
7. For grafdigger to be good you need to draw it early on (preemptively), while nihil is good at any stage of the game.
Looks a lot more similar to stock DS lists that have put of good results. I have a few questions/suggestions for you:
1. How has Ghor clan rampager been in your testing? Most people have cut it completely for the second temur battlerage. (Im not exaggerating on how good this card is)
2. The singleton delay could be changed for a third stubborn denial but thats up to you, Denial is a great card and some have had success with it.
3. How was faithless looting in your testing? Some people here have run it with mixed results.
4. Im not a fan of manamorphose either but several players swear by it, would be nice to get some of their input.
5. About the manabase you said you only have 1 blue source. You can remove the basic forest and add a breeding pool. Most 4C lists just run a basic swamp. It will give you better mana fixing but will make you weaker vs path, ghost quarter and fiend of ruin. (our deck is already weak against those anyways)
6. Mosts people dont run snapcaster, those who do run 1 tops, but those who run it run 2 blue shock lands: Breeding pool and watery grave. While you only have a single blue source I wouldnt run snapcaster either.
7. Just noticed you have abrupt decays off the side, would you consider running them in the main? They work as a catch all removal and would be your only answers against artifacts/enchantments.
8. How do you feel about tarfire? Does it put in enough work vs say lightning bolt? I personally dont like tarfire but if it works in your meta then it works.
9. You might want a couple of sweepers in the side, against go wide decks. ( I cant comment much on the side because thats very meta dependant.)
10. Overall you made positive changes to the deck and definitely let us know how it goes.
Heres my list for reference, it might give you some ideas, and feel free to offer any comments or criticism.
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
Land
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mishra's Bauble
Instant
1 Dismember
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Fatal Push
Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Godless Shrine
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Abrade
1 Golgari Charm
1 Radiant Flames
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
R1 Humans 2-0
G1 He mulls to 5 and I keep a decent hand with tarmogoyf and disruption. I sandbag my removal until my opponent tries to flicker a thalia´s lieutenant with resto angel. I push the liutenant and then fetch and push the resto. I overpower him with tarmogoyf.
G2 He mulls to 6, I keep a hand full of gas with lots of disruption and lingering souls. We grind and my opponent hits 29 life thanks to an auriok champion I cant remove. while im at 9 life. Lingering souls tokens keep him from attacking. My only large threat is a 5/6 tarmogofy which gets copied by a phantasmal image. I attack and play a temur battle rage on his block to take care of the tarmo copy. Eventually Im down to 2 and I draw my sided radiant flames and sweep for 4 colours thanks to thalia´s tax. I wipe his board and take over the game.
R2 Vizier Elves 2-0
G1This has always felt like a very easy matchup. G1 is a grindfest. Hes on the play. I keep a hand with dismember, thoughtseize, 2 baubles and other disuption but no threat. Im down to than 8 life in the first 2 turns due to, fetches, thoughtseize and a dismember I was forced to play on a mana dork. He keeps playing creatures and cracking horizon canopies to refill his hand while I keep minusing a LoTV, pushing and abrupt decaying his creatures. We are both topdecking with empty fields at this point. Ive been holding a temur battlerage all the game but have no threat. I draw and cast a streetwraith which is the first creature ive had, and allows me to keep up as a blocker while at 2 life. I finally draw a tarmogoyf and start swinging and end up killing him with temurbattlerage.
G2He mulls to 6, and I keep a strong 7 filled with liliana last hope, kozileks return, push, goyf, engineered explosives and 2 lands. Needless to say I blow him out with no trouble.
R3 U/W Control 2-1
G1 I feel this is my worst matchup, I always have a hard time winning this matchup with so much land disruption. I keep a 7 filled with 3 discards but no immediate threat. I bring myself down to a low life total but cant find a treat in time. We get to a point where I have to drop a whiff fatal push on his gideon just to turn on delirium and traverse for a shadow, but he has the path and I was removed from my both blue sources with his field of ruins.
G2 I keep a 7 with a 2 treats and disruption, I see his rest in peace and discard it turn 1. we trade resources a bit. I stick a 4/4 shadow plays and he plays a timely reinforcements to try and chump block me for days, luckily I had been holding on to a golgari charm which I was intending to use on an azcanta, detention sphere or regenerate from a supreme veredict, but the -1/-1 mode allowed me to clear his tokens and keep putting pressure. We reach a point where I have 2 shadows, a grim flayer and a liliana the last hope on board which is ticking up. Hes at 4 life and I know he has a settle the wreckage, a cryptic command and celestial purge. I start attacking with a single creature baiting out his removals 1 by 1 until he has to use the settle the wreckage to clear a single shadow. Im left with a single deathshadow on board and he topdecks a detentionsphere, but I have the abrupt decay to destroy it and win.
G3 I dont remember much from this game but he mulls to 6 and I keep a 7 with 2 tarmos, a shadow, thoughtseize, temurbattlerage and lands. I land a T2 tarmo vs his T3 gideon which prevents damage, I land the second tarmo and start to pressure his gideon. He plays a timely reinforcements and starts to chump block my tarmos. His gideon is up to 8 loyalty. And he has destroyed all my blue sources. I land a 4/4 shadow and eventually kill his gideon. He is forced to play a spreading seas just to draw gas but this turns on my counter. I counter his removal he doesnt draw a sweeper in time and temur battlerage gives me the win.
Highlights: U/W match is incredibly hard and we need to keep hand with treats plus discard if we want a chance. In the past I used to side out temur battlerage red and bring in white with lingering souls but Ive come to find that souls is too slow and doesnt put enough pressure for U/W. They have also gotten rid of my only white source just as I cant my first souls, leaving me with dead souls in hand. By leaving red and TBR in I can leave my red mana in my deck and only fetch for it when I need to play TBR. Golgari charm is a versatile card with many application in this matchup. Our mana base is weak against their many spreading seas and fields of ruins. Im open to any extra ideas and tips approaching this matchup.
1. You should up your land count, 18 lands is the sweet spot, so it might be good to add 2 more fetchlands.
2. Why arent you running any blue? It costs nothing to splash a watery grave and run stubborn denial, in fact its almost required if you want to beat burn, combo and control.
3. Whispers of emrakul isnt too good, you should replace 2 of those for 2 inquisition of kozilek. Generally our turn 2 should be spend deploying a threat or more disruption. A random discard isnt very much disruptive and by the time you hit delirium you probably want to be traversing, not discarding your opponent.
4. You need to run 2 temur battle rage in the main deck, this is a necessary card and everyone will tell you to run it. Its a card that allows us to win against bad matchups or even win out of nowhere.
5. Terminate can be too mana intensive, you wont always be fetching for red mana, id go up on the fourth push (good in this human meta) and perhaps a dismember would be better in place of the other terminate, less mana intensive and can speed up you shadow.
6. You should look into splashing a 4th colour at least (Blue or white). This deck can easily run 4 colours mainboard, with the 5th colour as a splash in the sideboard. Usually the sideboard color is white with lingering souls to hedge against midrange decks.
I agree with both statements. It looks like a suboptimal list.
(no 2-2 splits of different banned cards). Im planning of running with 5c DS, since im not feeling too good on jund lately (although deathrite shaman is tempting).
Ive narrowed the banned card im running down to either 4x gitaxian probe or 4x mental misstep.
Probe would allow quick filtering, life loss and running a 48 card deck; and would serve a similar if not better role than manamorphose?
Misstep just seems bonkers as a card and would allow for some nice tempo plays and out of nowhere counters plus the phyrexian mana is great.
What would you suggest and run if you had to pick between these two?
Ps: I dont have the time to find the cards to build old aggro deathshadow zoo, so im sticking to our traditional midrangy 5c deathshadow.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for the replies guys. The BR version seems it can easily run bloodmoon out of the side, is there any reason this card isnt seen much, or is anyone having success with bloodmoon in the BR version? Is bloodmoon worth in this deck?
Heres my list
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
Land
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mishra's Bauble
Instant
1 Dismember
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Fatal Push
Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Godless Shrine
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Abrade
1 Golgari Charm
1 Radiant Flames
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Mardu Pyromancer 2-1
Generally a grindfest, a hard game 1, g2 and 3 are much better thanks to lingering souls, lili the last hope, explosives and sideboard cards.
GR Ponza 2-1
Felt like a good matchup, we run enough discard, counters and removal for their arbor elves, bloodmoons and stone rains. Just stay out of bolt range and BBE is a thing.
Grixis DS 2-1
Once again another grind fest, g1 feels bad since their pushes take care of all our threats and snapcaster is a thing, but g2 and 3 we have lingering souls which earned me the win.
In general lingering souls feels much stronger and useful than stubborn denial in this (humans, hollow one, aggro) meta
Ive seen several lists running 2-3 basic mountains, 2 bloodcrypt and 3 blackcleave cliffs. And other lists run 3 blood crypt and 2 blackcleave cliffs. What is the recomended combination and reasoning behind the number of basics and bloodcrypts vs blackcleave?
Thanks in advance
Heres the list for reference: http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/120601
Looks good so far, generally any combination of the cards you mention would fit nicely in your 60 main deck as they're impactful 1 for 1 cards.
Remember that theres no set in stone deck list for Jund decks. You should try to tune them as best as you can for a certain meta.
You mention your meta is Burn, ETron, Mardu Pyromancer, Affinity, Storm, and Jeskai Control. So terminate is most likely a sub par card against most of the field. Burn and affinity are better fought with bolt, push, grim lavamancer. Collective brutality generally doesn't get much main deck attention and could be better suited for the side.
Given your meta I would add in the fourth bolt, and the abrupt decay as a catch all plus has more utility vs a search for azcanta or any bloodmoon shenanigans out of affinity/mardu/storm.
Is there any specific reason you run kalitas over a huntmaster or a fourth BBE? Just curious.
Stub feels bad with all the humans, hollow ones, jund decks around, and the rest of blue cards in the side were usually to fend off tron, control and big mana decks which are on the down low at the moment. Instead ill be running lingering souls package out of the side which feels better against jund, mardu and humans.
1. Is this thought process right? is stub and blue still good enough to keep in the 75 vs white?
2. How do you usually fare with the manamorphose build when it comes to running 17 lands? Do you ever fall short in hitting your second land? 18 felt good enough to consistently keep 1 landers. Do you even run out manamorphose as soon as you hit 2 lands for the cantrip, without knowing if you can draw into anything to make use of the 2 mana?
3. Im debating if I should keep in 2 lotv or add 2 bolts instead. or if i should scrap that completely and bring back 2 stubs into the main.
Hey Frenchfryninja, thanks for taking the time to reply, most of it makes perfect sense.
1. I was thinking about LoTV in the side, because it can help grindy matchups, anything midrange and control. Anything that just plays 1 or 2 threats. Although maybe im looking at it wrong since im so used to playing grindy and value games and this deck isnt about that. How do we side against midrange decks and control?
2. Youre correct about Sacred foundry, do you think this can be a viable option along with the lingering souls plan against grave hate or grindy games? Or is this idea just too cute?
3. Got it!