For those who are interested in the archetype, active discussion has been going on at The Source ever since the archetype was first established by Rood.
Major points in current development include the following:
- Dreadstill coming in two major flavors, UW (control oriented) or UR (Tempo oriented). MonoU (somewhere between the two, more towards Tempo) is also an option and UB is a possibility that has lots of potentially cool tools, but not a lot of work going on with it at the moment. UG has fallen out of favor quite severely as G doesn't give a lot to support what the deck wants to do (count to 20 as fast as possible or control a the game state until you can drop a 12/12 trampler with relative safety).
- The addition of Scroll of Fate as a major enabler of Phyrexian Dreadnought. Most lists run at least 3 and it is seen as one of the best cards in the deck.
- Planeswalkers such as Karn, the Great Creator, Teferi, Time Raveler, Chandra, Torch of Defiance and to a lesser degree Narset, Parter of Veils and Ashiok, Dream Render are all viable options out of the SB at the very least.
A generic core to start with might look like something like this and can be rounded out depending on whether you're splashing W, R, or just plain monoU:
I own a mint Black Lotus, and I wouldn't be remotely worried about the card taking a hit. On the contrary I can only see it rising in value because the game would be far more exposed to millions of casual players who would see why the card is the holy grail of Magic. Legacy is by far the most challenging format the game has to offer. It has insanely powerful decks in the most extensive meta with limitless deck building strategy, and it's pretty straight forward so that it doesn't require proxies. Players don't mind paying up for cards like Wasteland because they usually fit in certain type of decks with very specific trategies. But when it comes to dual lands, 100% of all multicolored decks need them. Without the dual lands, there is no Legacy. I can't think of a reason why WotC wouldn't want to reprint those lands as mythic rares and open the floodgates for millions of younger players who are dying to play the format.
I think you nailed it here. I don't think it's that there's a lack of interest in the format at all; it's just that it's financially, and ultimately physically, inaccessible.
I'd frankly be 200% okay with the value of my duals, forces, and other "staples" taking hits if it meant more people were in the format I loved.
I'll be playing it anyways because it's simply the format I enjoy the most, but I definitely miss the days of people dropping into the old development threads almost on a daily basis, looking for where to get started and how.
I see WoTC's stance towards Legacy very similar to how Nintendo views the competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Scene; indifferent. But 18 years after its release, the game still has a vibrant and huge competitive scene, because the community just didn't care that we didn't have official support. We just played the game and ran our own tournaments and even with the rise of the "eSports"-era that started within the past 3-4 years, there are still community-run events that regularly draw several hundred entrants and international competitors.
Obviously it's not a perfect parallel, as the physical means to play Legacy are a finite resource, whereas the Melee community still gets new controllers and such. But it still just comes down to a question of just playing what you love.
To be honest, legacy being an expensive format is a bit overrated. It really isn't as expensive as people think it is. The thing is, the value of the cards in most legacy decks are pretty stable, so it's not like you're going to need to invest all that much into it year by year.
When you have 1 complete deck, it's generally not very expensive to shift into another deck that shares pieces. UW stone blade into miracles isn't going to be all that expensive, for example. Also, the meta in legacy doesn't shift all that much - it's a format that rewards deck specialists, and good knowledge of the format. That basically means that i don't need to go about chasing all the rares and mythic of the most recent set; only the cards that can actually fit in my decks. in that way, it's a very small monetary investment on a yearly basis.
To be fair, if I was going to try to get into Legacy at today's prices compared to when I got in during my college days, I wouldn't do it. My manabase alone would be more than what I spent to build the entirely of my Landstill deck ~2009-2010, and it took me a year and a half to fully complete it. Granted, it took a decade to reach those prices, but it does demonstrate that the monetary barrier to entry has only risen.
That being said, I agree 100% that it isn't too bad moving from one deck to another, provided you have the "core" cards of a given color/archetype, and the deck you want to move into shares that color.
There are two kind of magic players. (Not Timmy/Spike made up magic crap!)
Type 1 - Casual/Kitchen table Players
Type 2 - Professional Players
Please note that 90% of the magic playing community is the type 1 player. Type 1 player. We love the game, we play for fun and mostly with our friends. So we don't need real magic cards to play with friends.
Type 2 player are aiming to professionalism. They want to be a pro player, they are looking to be ranked, and they mostly play in tournaments. They go to cardshops and play the best of the best and they are playing magic 2 to 3 times a week. Yes, they are seen as Spikes, but that's because these players want wins. Because they are so focused in playing in tournaments, they have to play with the real magic cards!
That's a pretty broad brush and I feel like you're downplaying the abundance of one, and upselling the presence of another. If we're going to use a Bell curve, I'd think that most of us fall somewhere in the middle between your "kitchen table/fun-only" types and your "tournament grinder" types. Let's not kid ourselves, everyone loves winning. And the first thing a lot of us do when we get into this game and buy our first pre-con, is ask ourselves, "What cards are 'better'? What is new, unique, fun, interesting, or weird?"
And if you're lucky enough to get into the game with a group of friends, you start making multiple decks and you automatically know which ones are "for fun" and which ones are "serious". Thing is, they all use "real Magic cards" and there's no right or wrong to get into the format, or the game as a whole.
Hmmm, legacy’s price issues seems to be affecting a lot of players the same way. I am a long time legacy player, I love the format. In my small group of friends, we play strictly legacy but we all have budgets. None of us have decks that can “go off” on turn 1 or 2, it’s a lot of fun. No one clan afford FoW or legit dual lands. And even if we could, we wouldn’t.
I feel like legacy’s prices are separating and pushing out a lot of would be legacy players. A lot of people are scared to even enter the format because of the prices. That’s sad. The legacy scene around me is pretty rough. 4-5 guys at my LGS have very expensive legacy decks. The “casual/budget” legacy player just can’t compete with that... usually.
After looking at today's prices, I couldn't agree more. That being said, good on you and your friends for keeping on playing Legacy; players like you are what keep the format alive.
Oh... dummy me. I completely misunderstood what you were saying.
Sorry. I didn't have an answer for you. I quit playing MTG before Odyssey was released and rejoined the game after the deck apparently lost favor. So I basically missed out on that entire meta shift.
Nah, you're good.
The deck definitely still sees occasional play according to tourney results I've found, just isn't as widespread as it used to be. Landstill lists from the past year also look wildly different than the ones we used to brew here, and I'd love to understand the reasoning behind some of those card selections.
Having lucked out and also found my playset of Tropical Islands and Misty Rainforests, I've also debated just going in on Bant and opting for a more midrange deck, but Landstill in Legacy is one of my true loves in MtG and I wanted to give the deck a few chances in tournament before exploring elsewhere.
Thanks for the response. Yea, the old Landstill thread turned into the old Miracles thread, which was archived. I was more curious about Landstill as an archetype not really showing up at high-level play in the numbers it used to.
I remember when I was active, a lot of LS pilots saw CB/Top as the more optimal way to dominate and choke the board, and a lot of pilots jumped ship there. The interaction of Top + Miracles was just too strong but it was often a supplement to the "Landstill" package of Standstill + manlands. I just didn't foresee almost a complete drop of Landstill as an archetype in the tournament scene and was curious why.
I'll probably be taken my old UWr list to the next Knightware in October, and just wanted to get an idea of where the meta was at.
About 8 years ago, my binder and my box of Legacy staples and competitive decks were stolen.
At least I thought they were.
About a month ago, I stumbled upon a box buried way back in the closet, and lo and behold, when opening it up I found not only my old casual decks, but two of my competitive decks: UWr Landstill and MonoR Burn. My binder was still gone, but seeing the decks that I spent almost a year and a half putting together.
After nearly soiling my pants when I looked at the prices of dual lands now, I remembered this site and all the time I spent theory-crafting and developing the deck with the likes of rsaunder, Warden, and kevinliu in the old Landstill thread, under the name ".fortune". I'm looking at attending a monthly Knight-Ware tournament for old times sake, and saw that not only was Landstill no longer an "Established" deck, it wasn't even in "Developing".
What happened to Landstill? Around the time of my last posts, Miracles was but a radical new approach and wrinkle to add to the old 'Still lists, as we looked to catch up lists that got faster and faster. I remember that CB/Top + Miracles seemed to be the new direction that Landstill was heading in, and the old thread title changed to reflect that, but lists I've looked up pre-Top ban seem to seldomly run Standstill. Is the meta now so fast that the classic T2 Island --> Standstill --> "Go" just isn't enough? Or is there still room for a list that wants to keep a clean board and an answer for everything?
TL;DR - Want to get back into 1.5 after a 9 year hiatus; see thread title. Hello fellow Legacy fans.
Major points in current development include the following:
- Dreadstill coming in two major flavors, UW (control oriented) or UR (Tempo oriented). MonoU (somewhere between the two, more towards Tempo) is also an option and UB is a possibility that has lots of potentially cool tools, but not a lot of work going on with it at the moment. UG has fallen out of favor quite severely as G doesn't give a lot to support what the deck wants to do (count to 20 as fast as possible or control a the game state until you can drop a 12/12 trampler with relative safety).
- The addition of Scroll of Fate as a major enabler of Phyrexian Dreadnought. Most lists run at least 3 and it is seen as one of the best cards in the deck.
- Planeswalkers such as Karn, the Great Creator, Teferi, Time Raveler, Chandra, Torch of Defiance and to a lesser degree Narset, Parter of Veils and Ashiok, Dream Render are all viable options out of the SB at the very least.
A generic core to start with might look like something like this and can be rounded out depending on whether you're splashing W, R, or just plain monoU:
4x On-Color Fetch
3x Prismatic Vista
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
2x On-color Dual
4x Island
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
Instants
4x Force of Will
2x Force of Negation
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Standstill
Wow. That's...unfortunate.
I think you nailed it here. I don't think it's that there's a lack of interest in the format at all; it's just that it's financially, and ultimately physically, inaccessible.
Even when I was getting into the game, Legacy was what got my attention more than Standard and Extended because of the allure of "power"; every player wants to know what it feels like to deny opponents for free, summon a fattie on Turn 1, and to combo off and hit someone for lethal.
I'm sure the interest is there. But the means to fill that interest, unfortunately, is not.
I'll be playing it anyways because it's simply the format I enjoy the most, but I definitely miss the days of people dropping into the old development threads almost on a daily basis, looking for where to get started and how.
I see WoTC's stance towards Legacy very similar to how Nintendo views the competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Scene; indifferent. But 18 years after its release, the game still has a vibrant and huge competitive scene, because the community just didn't care that we didn't have official support. We just played the game and ran our own tournaments and even with the rise of the "eSports"-era that started within the past 3-4 years, there are still community-run events that regularly draw several hundred entrants and international competitors.
Obviously it's not a perfect parallel, as the physical means to play Legacy are a finite resource, whereas the Melee community still gets new controllers and such. But it still just comes down to a question of just playing what you love.
To be fair, if I was going to try to get into Legacy at today's prices compared to when I got in during my college days, I wouldn't do it. My manabase alone would be more than what I spent to build the entirely of my Landstill deck ~2009-2010, and it took me a year and a half to fully complete it. Granted, it took a decade to reach those prices, but it does demonstrate that the monetary barrier to entry has only risen.
That being said, I agree 100% that it isn't too bad moving from one deck to another, provided you have the "core" cards of a given color/archetype, and the deck you want to move into shares that color.
That's a pretty broad brush and I feel like you're downplaying the abundance of one, and upselling the presence of another. If we're going to use a Bell curve, I'd think that most of us fall somewhere in the middle between your "kitchen table/fun-only" types and your "tournament grinder" types. Let's not kid ourselves, everyone loves winning. And the first thing a lot of us do when we get into this game and buy our first pre-con, is ask ourselves, "What cards are 'better'? What is new, unique, fun, interesting, or weird?"
And if you're lucky enough to get into the game with a group of friends, you start making multiple decks and you automatically know which ones are "for fun" and which ones are "serious". Thing is, they all use "real Magic cards" and there's no right or wrong to get into the format, or the game as a whole.
After looking at today's prices, I couldn't agree more. That being said, good on you and your friends for keeping on playing Legacy; players like you are what keep the format alive.
Nah, you're good.
The deck definitely still sees occasional play according to tourney results I've found, just isn't as widespread as it used to be. Landstill lists from the past year also look wildly different than the ones we used to brew here, and I'd love to understand the reasoning behind some of those card selections.
Having lucked out and also found my playset of Tropical Islands and Misty Rainforests, I've also debated just going in on Bant and opting for a more midrange deck, but Landstill in Legacy is one of my true loves in MtG and I wanted to give the deck a few chances in tournament before exploring elsewhere.
Thanks for the response. Yea, the old Landstill thread turned into the old Miracles thread, which was archived. I was more curious about Landstill as an archetype not really showing up at high-level play in the numbers it used to.
I remember when I was active, a lot of LS pilots saw CB/Top as the more optimal way to dominate and choke the board, and a lot of pilots jumped ship there. The interaction of Top + Miracles was just too strong but it was often a supplement to the "Landstill" package of Standstill + manlands. I just didn't foresee almost a complete drop of Landstill as an archetype in the tournament scene and was curious why.
I'll probably be taken my old UWr list to the next Knightware in October, and just wanted to get an idea of where the meta was at.
At least I thought they were.
About a month ago, I stumbled upon a box buried way back in the closet, and lo and behold, when opening it up I found not only my old casual decks, but two of my competitive decks: UWr Landstill and MonoR Burn. My binder was still gone, but seeing the decks that I spent almost a year and a half putting together.
After nearly soiling my pants when I looked at the prices of dual lands now, I remembered this site and all the time I spent theory-crafting and developing the deck with the likes of rsaunder, Warden, and kevinliu in the old Landstill thread, under the name ".fortune". I'm looking at attending a monthly Knight-Ware tournament for old times sake, and saw that not only was Landstill no longer an "Established" deck, it wasn't even in "Developing".
What happened to Landstill? Around the time of my last posts, Miracles was but a radical new approach and wrinkle to add to the old 'Still lists, as we looked to catch up lists that got faster and faster. I remember that CB/Top + Miracles seemed to be the new direction that Landstill was heading in, and the old thread title changed to reflect that, but lists I've looked up pre-Top ban seem to seldomly run Standstill. Is the meta now so fast that the classic T2 Island --> Standstill --> "Go" just isn't enough? Or is there still room for a list that wants to keep a clean board and an answer for everything?
TL;DR - Want to get back into 1.5 after a 9 year hiatus; see thread title. Hello fellow Legacy fans.