I've seen some lists that don't run Vials, but they usually play Simian Spirit Guides and sometimes, Chalice of the Void (which is not a well positioned card on this meta, IMO). Maybe it could work, but you'd probably better make a bunch of changes on the list. I'd probably take out the Flickerwisps, for example, as they are not nearly as good without Vials.
For sure Bedlam Reveler is much better than Rix Maadi Reveler. But how about use Rix Maadi Reveler as the 5th and/or 6th Bedlam Reveler for the deck? Surely would help with the gas (which is not really a big problem for the deck though). I don't really think that he's good enough, but I think that if we would try him, he would probably fit the role of being the 5th or 6th Reveler.
Light up the Stage could be a good draw spell IMO. It costs less than Night's Whisper (which only a few lists play) and doesn't do any damage for us. The problem is the Spectacle clause. In it's hard cast, Light up the Stage is a bad card. In Spectacle mode, it's really good. Maybe one or two copys? If it gets clunky, we might just discard them for Looting or Brutality.
I think Nullhide Ferox could be a good finisher for GW Taxes. It's really big, hard to remove, easy to Vial in and doesn't disrupt your game plan at all. The worse it could do is make you pay extra 2 to Path something, but you probably wouldn't be too afraid of any creature if you had a Ferox on the battlefield, in the first place.
Besides it's a huge guy, that your opponent won't be able to remove in most cases, considering they'll probably need to pay 2 to fetch, pay extra 1 to cast non-creatures, and extra 2 to get rid of Ferox's Hexproof. Not to mention you're probably Strip Mining them at some point. Then, they time walk themselves to try to remove it, and you blink it with a Flickerwisp, Resto or Displacer. That would be a huge Tempo Swing. Could be good IMO.
Have anyone here tried Chandra, Torch of Defiance?
I have been thinking about playing Mardu on my local store, but there are a lot of UWs there. So I think I could use a mainboard threat that doesn't die to Terminus. Any thoughts?
I would never play Tocatli Honor Guard on this deck. It destroys half of your plays. Flickerwisp, Blade Splicer, TKS, Tidehollow Sculler and Strangler become all crap. You also lose a lot of use for your Displacer. For what match-up were you thinking about to make room for it? Valakut? Humans? There must be better options in either case, that don't stop your own deck from working as well.
I usually feel like I have a positive match-up vs Burn, so I see little use to double Firewalkers on the sideboard. I think it is important to have something against them, but I'd rather go for something less focused and more versatile. So... I support your idea of taking out one Firewalker and adding one Alliance. In addition to that, I'd probably consider taking out the other Firewalker for a Burrenton Forge-Tender. Firewalker is better against Burn, but that's pretty much the only match-up in which he's actually good. BFT on the other hand, is good vs any deck that uses Burns as control tools, such as Valakut, Jeskai, U Moon, and even Jund, while still being pretty good vs Burn.
I like Relic-Warder in a heavy artifact field. Otherwise, I'd rather have something more versatile, like Anguished Unmaking.
I agree with you to the statement that this deck is soft on removal. So I also play a Fatal Push on the sideboard, an Anguished Unmaking, and sometimes a Fiend Hunter. Maybe you should consider using some of those. I also have been thinking about trying a Chupacabra. Haven't tried it yet because I feel like it's probably too slow.
@The Jeskai Way : hello i am actually a jund player but my pet deck was hatebears since i play modern !
So i can give you some tips :
generalities (not always true but often it is)
-play thalia first if your opponent pass the turn with one mana up
-play arbiter if he is tap out
-not ghost quarter too much times even with arbter and if you need this GQ to cast a good spell next turn or same turn, you are lucky if your opponent have no other land in hand but jund run 24 or 25 lands, obviously if you don't have good creatures slow down BBE is good but keep GQ for manlands in late game is very nice. Don't forgot jund plays only 1 mountain and if he doesn't he will have 2 forest.
-with strangler, always play it when you can kill something, don't wait and don't play it before.
-play flickerwisp as soon as possible to do something (value on a guy or just remove a blocker to deal some damage)
-bob is your worst enemy if you don't have a very agressive start.
-play displacer early only if you don't have other guy to play.
Side board :
-4 vial, -4 arbiter, -2 sculler (not sure)
+2 Rest in Peace (not sure)
+1 Anguished Unmaking
+1 Fatal Push,+1 Fiend Hunter (not sure),+1 Burrenton Forge-Tender(not sure),+1 Mirran Crusader
+1 Reality Smasher,+1 Liliana, the Last Hope,+1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
My sb against your deck :
+2 anger +1 liliana, the last hope, +1 EE
-2 inquisition (on the play), -3 liliana of the veil (i don't take the risk to play it against any wall of omen, thraben inspector, blade splicer or thalia), -2 tarmo (on the draw)
To have play the match-up in both side, Jund is slightly favorable but skill and nice side board plan just make the difference.
Nice! Thanks man! Very nice tips!
My sideboard plan is usually close to your recomendations. I always bring Rest in Peaces, because they nullify their Goyfs, and weaken their Scoozes and Kommands. I bring in both walkers from my sideboard, Reality Smasher, Mirran Crusader and a bunch of removal (usually Fatal Push and Anguished Unmaking). Somethings, I bring in sometimes, and sometimes I don't, like BFT and Blessed Alliance.
I always side out my Vials, and because of that, I usually sideout 1 or 2 Flickerwisps also, since they're not that great without the Vial Shenaningans.
I'm also not really sure about what is the best stance for me on this match-up. Should I try to outgrind them, or just beat them as fast as possible?
I've been playing BW Eldrazi and Taxes at the FNM level for a while now, and I noticed that Bridgevine is the hot new thing after the pro tour. RIP seems to be way too slow to really hate out the deck, and I am way too poor to afford a set of Leyline of the Void after the spike. My question is, would cards like Relic of Progenitus and Ravenous trap be effective (if not as powerful) substitutes for Leyline until it gets reprinted or goes down?
If RiP is not fast enough, Relic won't do the trick. Ravenous Trap or Faerie Macabre could be better, I think? Problem with those is they just stop the problem once, but they're probably dredging more on the following turns, and your hate is gone.
Actually, Blood Moon is good vs Tron. Problem is it just slows them down, but it doesn't stop them. They'll eventually get rid of it, or just ignore it and hard cast their unbeatable threats anyways. So, just playing Blood Moon isn't enough. You need to beat them as fast as possible after deploying the Moon. It does buy you a reasonable time, however.
I didn't play the deck that much yet, but on my short experience, I felt like the deck performs decently against most U-Control decks in Modern, because most of them play around 6~9 counterspells only, they are oftenly forced to counter my lock pieces, and they usually have a ton of dead cards against me (so do I, but at least I'm not unfavoured for this reason). For that reason I can very oftenly resolve a powerful walker, and anyone of them usually wins the game. Also, if I manage to play a Blood Moon or a Chalice of the Void under their counterspells, I might be able to just lock them enough to win.
However, if I can't force a lock piece under their conterspells, or just play more threats than they're able to counter, I'm probably losing because I just can't force much end of turn action to force counterspells, and then try to resolve something relevant. Almost everything in my deck is Sorcery Speed.
For that reason I added a Boil to the sideboard, and I have been thinking of adding a second one. I played against a U Tron recently and it felt really hard for me, because they usually play more counterspells than most Controls in Modern, and they can just play bigger than I do. But when I played Jeskai and UW I felt it was pretty even match. Might be wrong though. I didn't play the deck that much yet.
Ended up facing 2 Junds, 1 Mardu Pyromancer and 1 Abzan Tokens. Lost to one of the Junds in a very close Game 3.
Has anyone been still playing Sun and Moon? My deck seemed really powerful yesterday. I enjoyed a lot playing it. Have been thinking of cutting the Ajani Vengeant for the 3rd Chandra, Torch of Defiance, cutting the Sarkhan the Dragonspeaker for a Chandra, Flamecaller or a Hazoret and cutting the Molten Rain or the Boil for a Celestial Purge. Any thoughts?
I think Chandra is really bad in a heavy counterspell build. The +1 first ability will likely exile something you'd like to draw, and do 2 damage to the face per turn, what is not really impressive considering she's a 4 mana Sorcery speed card that dies through combat or direct damage. If you manage to ultimate her, than yes, she'll end up the game fastly, but what playable walker doesn't win the game once it ultimates or even stick to the board for 4 turns?
The card advantage she provides doesn't work well on this kind of deck either. The other +1 ability is also bad in a deck that prefers to play stuff on the opponent's turn. That RR could be useful to swing with Colonnades, I guess? Maybe? And... pretty much that's it.
The -3 is really good in a metagame with a lot of x/4 or lesser creatures. However, we don't really know how will the new metagame look like. It wasn't really where we wanted to be before the unbannings though. She doesn't kill DS creatures (none of them), from Eldrazis she just kills TKS (what IS good btw, but probably not enough to make her really good vs the whole deck), and other creature decks usually just go wide, so killing just one creature with a 4 mana sorcery speed card is probably not great.
The ultimate is really powerful if you get there.
So... IMO the problem for her on a stock Jeskai list is the fact that almost all spells from Jeskai are Instant Speed, and most of them are much better if played on our opponent's turn. This ruins her first two abilities. Therefore, you're probably not accomplishing much by just plusing her into the ultimate.
That said, I do believe that Chandra can be amazing on more Midrangey Jeskai builds, including Jeskai Kiki builds that play more stuff on their own turn. She can help dig into Walls, Restos (which would be better if casted on the opponent's turn, but can be reasonably be cast on your own turn), Kiki Jiki (which she might help casting by adding RR also, or even those Thundermaw/Ojutai builds. Maybe on more aggressive Geist lists as well, with more Burn and less counterspells.
In the stock Jeskai lists, Tempo or Control, with a lot of Cryptic Commands, Snapcasters, Electrolyzes, etc., I think she's probably a worse Ajani Vengeant.
Light up the Stage could be a good draw spell IMO. It costs less than Night's Whisper (which only a few lists play) and doesn't do any damage for us. The problem is the Spectacle clause. In it's hard cast, Light up the Stage is a bad card. In Spectacle mode, it's really good. Maybe one or two copys? If it gets clunky, we might just discard them for Looting or Brutality.
Besides it's a huge guy, that your opponent won't be able to remove in most cases, considering they'll probably need to pay 2 to fetch, pay extra 1 to cast non-creatures, and extra 2 to get rid of Ferox's Hexproof. Not to mention you're probably Strip Mining them at some point. Then, they time walk themselves to try to remove it, and you blink it with a Flickerwisp, Resto or Displacer. That would be a huge Tempo Swing. Could be good IMO.
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Bedlam Reveler
Planeswalker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Fatal Push
2 Dreadbore
2 Blood Moon
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Fulminator Mage
3 Molten Rain
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Wear/Tear
1 Collective Brutality
On my field there are a bunch of Big Mana Decks, a bunch of Controls and some Burns.
I have been thinking about playing Mardu on my local store, but there are a lot of UWs there. So I think I could use a mainboard threat that doesn't die to Terminus. Any thoughts?
I usually feel like I have a positive match-up vs Burn, so I see little use to double Firewalkers on the sideboard. I think it is important to have something against them, but I'd rather go for something less focused and more versatile. So... I support your idea of taking out one Firewalker and adding one Alliance. In addition to that, I'd probably consider taking out the other Firewalker for a Burrenton Forge-Tender. Firewalker is better against Burn, but that's pretty much the only match-up in which he's actually good. BFT on the other hand, is good vs any deck that uses Burns as control tools, such as Valakut, Jeskai, U Moon, and even Jund, while still being pretty good vs Burn.
I like Relic-Warder in a heavy artifact field. Otherwise, I'd rather have something more versatile, like Anguished Unmaking.
I agree with you to the statement that this deck is soft on removal. So I also play a Fatal Push on the sideboard, an Anguished Unmaking, and sometimes a Fiend Hunter. Maybe you should consider using some of those. I also have been thinking about trying a Chupacabra. Haven't tried it yet because I feel like it's probably too slow.
Nice! Thanks man! Very nice tips!
My sideboard plan is usually close to your recomendations. I always bring Rest in Peaces, because they nullify their Goyfs, and weaken their Scoozes and Kommands. I bring in both walkers from my sideboard, Reality Smasher, Mirran Crusader and a bunch of removal (usually Fatal Push and Anguished Unmaking). Somethings, I bring in sometimes, and sometimes I don't, like BFT and Blessed Alliance.
I always side out my Vials, and because of that, I usually sideout 1 or 2 Flickerwisps also, since they're not that great without the Vial Shenaningans.
I'm also not really sure about what is the best stance for me on this match-up. Should I try to outgrind them, or just beat them as fast as possible?
I have been playing BW Taxes for about 3 months now, and have been able to accomplish 3-1 scores at almost all of the FNM I have been playing.
And I did beat a large number of opponents. Burn, Zoo, Storm, Azusa Titan, Blue Moon, UW Control, Vizier Company, UB Faeries...
However, I'm having a lot of trouble trying to beat Jund. I would like to know if anyone here has some tips.
My list is this one:
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Shambling Vent
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
1 Swamp
Creatures
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Dark Confidant
3 Flickerwisp
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Blade Splicer
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Restoration Angel
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Fatal Push
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Reality Smasher
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
I added Smasher and Crusader to the sideboard to help me in this match-up, but still pretty tough. Suggestions?
If RiP is not fast enough, Relic won't do the trick. Ravenous Trap or Faerie Macabre could be better, I think? Problem with those is they just stop the problem once, but they're probably dredging more on the following turns, and your hate is gone.
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Raging Ravine
1 Fire-lit Thicket
1 Gavony Township
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Omens
2 Wall of Roots
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Renegade Rallier
2 Restoration Angel
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Reveillark
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Spells
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Chord of Calling
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
2 Stony Silence
2 Path to Exile
1 Celestial Purge
1 Wear/Tear
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Acidic Slime
Any thoughts?
However, if I can't force a lock piece under their conterspells, or just play more threats than they're able to counter, I'm probably losing because I just can't force much end of turn action to force counterspells, and then try to resolve something relevant. Almost everything in my deck is Sorcery Speed.
For that reason I added a Boil to the sideboard, and I have been thinking of adding a second one. I played against a U Tron recently and it felt really hard for me, because they usually play more counterspells than most Controls in Modern, and they can just play bigger than I do. But when I played Jeskai and UW I felt it was pretty even match. Might be wrong though. I didn't play the deck that much yet.
I'm a long time Modern player, but recently decided to play Sun and Moon.
I finished the deck last week and yesterday accomplished a third place on a local tournament with a 3-1-0.
I played this deck:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Needle Spires
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Clifftop Retreat
9 Plains
1 Mountain
Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Planeswalkers
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Gideon Jura
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Abrade
3 Lightning Helix
Sorcery
3 Sweltering Suns
1 Day of Judgment
1 Wrath of God
Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
Enchantments
4 Blood Moon
1 Cast Out
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Molten Rain
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Boil
1 Roast
Ended up facing 2 Junds, 1 Mardu Pyromancer and 1 Abzan Tokens. Lost to one of the Junds in a very close Game 3.
Has anyone been still playing Sun and Moon? My deck seemed really powerful yesterday. I enjoyed a lot playing it. Have been thinking of cutting the Ajani Vengeant for the 3rd Chandra, Torch of Defiance, cutting the Sarkhan the Dragonspeaker for a Chandra, Flamecaller or a Hazoret and cutting the Molten Rain or the Boil for a Celestial Purge. Any thoughts?
The card advantage she provides doesn't work well on this kind of deck either. The other +1 ability is also bad in a deck that prefers to play stuff on the opponent's turn. That RR could be useful to swing with Colonnades, I guess? Maybe? And... pretty much that's it.
The -3 is really good in a metagame with a lot of x/4 or lesser creatures. However, we don't really know how will the new metagame look like. It wasn't really where we wanted to be before the unbannings though. She doesn't kill DS creatures (none of them), from Eldrazis she just kills TKS (what IS good btw, but probably not enough to make her really good vs the whole deck), and other creature decks usually just go wide, so killing just one creature with a 4 mana sorcery speed card is probably not great.
The ultimate is really powerful if you get there.
So... IMO the problem for her on a stock Jeskai list is the fact that almost all spells from Jeskai are Instant Speed, and most of them are much better if played on our opponent's turn. This ruins her first two abilities. Therefore, you're probably not accomplishing much by just plusing her into the ultimate.
That said, I do believe that Chandra can be amazing on more Midrangey Jeskai builds, including Jeskai Kiki builds that play more stuff on their own turn. She can help dig into Walls, Restos (which would be better if casted on the opponent's turn, but can be reasonably be cast on your own turn), Kiki Jiki (which she might help casting by adding RR also, or even those Thundermaw/Ojutai builds. Maybe on more aggressive Geist lists as well, with more Burn and less counterspells.
In the stock Jeskai lists, Tempo or Control, with a lot of Cryptic Commands, Snapcasters, Electrolyzes, etc., I think she's probably a worse Ajani Vengeant.