For those wondering about budget manabases, I don't have BC Cliffs either and have been playing with fetches and shocks for quite some time (and without Arid Mesas as well ). It's not ideal, but it works really well (and I get to play the deck ). Here's my list, for anyone wondering.
On a completely unrelated note, what would you all think about a single Goblin Dark-Dwellers in the sideboard? It seems really good for grindy matches, and would be an awesome top deck to flash back something like Kolaghan's Command.
I'm with you on the manabase. I've been running a similar base the last few weeks (I'm not buying BCCs... they're begging for a reprint the next time we're back in New Phyrexia and I can be patient) and have encountered very few issues. Are there times it screws you over? Of course. But at that point you're talking about percentage points and it's still more than good enough for say FNMs and low-moderate tournament activity IMO. It's most hurt my WR vs. Affinity from what I can see, but there's not much of that at my local meta.
On Dark Dwellers, I think it might be too high CMC to add much more value. For games that I get up to 5 lands in the BF, I've generally been able to stabilize and just need to ride the game out via YP and Reveler, the later of which generates better CA. Just my two cents.
One card I've been particularly pleased with in the SB is Rakdos Charm. It can double as extra Artifact hate if needed, but the GY hate + Go-Wide hate has been especially powerful for me. At my last FNM I ran into a Sword of the Mentor deck that swung wide for double-digit lethal. Couldn't sacrifice enough thopters and landed within Bolt range (which I conveniently also had!).
I've not played Hollow One since including it, but imagine it can be useful in there as well to either shut down Ghasts and Phoenixes or kill Hollow One.
Well, its not something new, Mardu Pyromancer had originally Helixes instead of CBs main, since Selfeisek (the person who created the deck) always ran it, it didn't change at all, so selfeisek still runs them, its nothing new from him.
I personally like the option, but am not sure whether we want that more dedication to white. But after all Selfeisek keeps doing well with his version, which he never really changed (despite cutting the Swiftspears, which was just weird to include in the first place)
It's probably a meta decision more than anything. Sometimes you need a little extra oomph to the face or an extra Bolt removal to get the game done. The Lightning Helix version probably is a tad more aggressive depending on the #s, whereas Manamorphose lets us be a bit grindier. Against Humans, D&T, or other small creature decks it can be good. Meanwhile Goyf, Hollow One, Angler, Shadow, etc. that Helix won't be all that helpful where card draw + a free chump might buy you enough extra time.
P&K are 1cmc cheaper and the incidental synergy with Tracker is actually more inpactful than I initially thought when I started playing it. It's a shade better IMO.
Thanks! I hadn't thought about the Tracker synergy but that makes a ton of sense. Previously, I had been running Jadelight Rangers instead of Tracker because I didn't have any. HOWEVER, I just picked up my playset + my remaining dual lands while at GP DFW last weekend, so I ought to be able to take advantage of that now! Excited to take this out for a whirl again :-D
What do you guys think about running 1-2x Siege-gang Commander in the MB. Perhaps in place of Pia & Kiran.
My thinking is that 5 CMC isn't too difficult to achieve, it creates more bodies, and can potentially deal more direct damage (and cheaper per sting) than P&K.
Definitely get Stomping Grounds if you intend to play this deck for a long time. Cinder Glades are good as a temporary budget replacement, but they can sometimes cause a fatal slowdown in some games.
Hehe yes I did! Even with people calling me a degenerate for blowing up their lands.
What I'll most likely do is get 1x Stomping Ground with my store credit, then wait/trade for another. I'd like to also get the Trackers, but Jadelight has been doing well enough that I can stall for the price to fall further.
I had a chance to pilot this last night at my LGS' Modern event. I was a bit nervous as it tends to be a bit more competitive b/c the cash prize instead of packs. Ended up going 2-2, which I am very happy with as an inaugural venture with the deck! I ended up dropping to 2 Inferno Titan to run 3 Lightning Bolts in the main, which saved my butt multiple times.
Match 1: 2-0 vs BW Tokens -- Hit some initial land d to throw them off tempo game 1, game 2 boarded out blood moon b/c they didn't actually run many duals. Instead added Bolt + Anger to clear tokens before my BBE/Titan pushes. Match 2: 2-0 vs Mono Green Stompy -- I actually felt quite bad about how this played out and the guy was visibly frustrated. Both games I kept him down to 1 land while I ramped out Titan. Literally cascaded into Stone Rain back-to-back. Match 3: 1-2 vs Burn -- Game 1 was a blow-out, but Game 2 I nailed the tempo control. Popped his Sacred Foundry early, then by the time he got another dual land I was able to drop Blood Moon to lock him out of his Helix/Charm. Game 3 I feel I lost to myself, having to mull down to 5 and no good turn 1-2 plays. Match 4: 1-2 vs Naya Zoo -- Game 1 I had a good start, but didn't have enough pressure to keep his board clear. His list ran Thalia which out-tempo'd me. Game 2 I sandbagged Anger until he had over-extended, chump blocking with my Elf/Bird to stall, which he couldn't recover from. Game 3 I lost to a misplay, where I should have just cast my Anger to buy time but instead I tried to wait it out for more value.
As mentioned above, I'm really pleased with this given that it was my first go-around. The clearest upgrade path is definitely lands - the Cinder Glade ended up being a costly play in my opening hand for both the loss matches. Jadelight Ranger also proved to be a stellar card, delivering immediate value even if she was bolted (whereas Tireless Tracker would have ended up being a dud.
I am also considering running 2x Siege-Gang Commander in the place of 2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar. P&K offers a little more reach, but SGC can get you more bodies and up to 4x instances of 2 dmg (compared to P&K's 2).
Thanks, @The FLuff! I'm looking forward to it hehe. In my initial playtests, it's an incredibly fun deck to pilot.
Two quick questions on my end:
For the Chalice of the Void, should I try to rush it out on Turn 2 to try and block 1 CMC spells (Bolt, Spike, Guide, etc.) or hold until I can block 2 CMC (Eidolons, Skullcracks, Destructive Revelry, etc.)? Probably a noob question. I'm leaning toward CMC to throw them off tempo while I get my land destruction machine up and running.
I'm on the fence about Damping Sphere. It can certainly be powerful in a variety of match-ups, but it's going to hose my own BBE unless I have an extra 1 floating. We have enough ramp that this may be a non issue. What do you think?
Had a very successful prerelease (both for gameplay and trading hehe) so I was able to pick up several missing tools. The biggest opportunities to me are still the Trackers + phasing out some of my budget dual land choices.
My local meta tends to have a lot of Humans, Burn, Tron, Eldrazi, and Hatebear/Taxes decks. There's occasionally some storm/KCI type decks running around. Based on this, what do you guys think of my MB and/or SB choices below?
[quote from="Jake_MG »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/aggro-tempo/724274-death-and-taxes?comment=5479"]Has anyone thought about testing Baird, Steward of Argive? I remember Archangel of Tithes not working due to triple W, and Windborn Muse just feels too plain and boring. So Baird seems like he doesn't really bring anything new to the table, but just curious if anyone has noticed or thought of anything I haven't. Possible the Legendary type has some bonus
Agreed. Baird, Steward of Argive just seems to be way too expensive of a bear. If he were 3 CMC it might be worthwhile, but since we're sac'ing lands (GQ, FoR, TE) and our best Aether Vial value is 3 CMC, I don't see this making the cut.
Aside from a few one-offs that see play every now and again, my local meta generally consists of:
Humans (1-2x)
Jund (1-2x)
Burn (2-3x)
Tron (2-3x)
Other DNT variants (1-2x)
R/G Eldrazi (1)
RG Zoo (1)
I figured Pontiff/Settle protect me from go-wide strategies, the Pushes help against Jund, Humans, and Zoo, RIP + Mirran Crusader can help against BGx based decks, and Kambal can help against Burn.
Auriok Champion is one I am experimenting with. It was an absolute game changer for me against Humans, as they were relying on a top deck in order to deal with it. In the meantime, it helped me rebound back and top-deck a Settle to clear their board. Burn will need Skullcrack to kill it, and I imagine its also quite difficult for Jund to deal with.
Again - would appreciate any suggestions you have! Sideboarding is probably my weakest skill in regards to this game...
I'll likely wait to give this a whirl that FNM until I get those Titans. I found a few reasonably priced ones on TCGPlayer (I was surprised how many stores were marking them up). Also, I'm hoping to fill in the remaining gaps via trades this weekend at the Dominaria prerelease and at GP Dallas-Fort Worth. Fingers crossed!
Hello! New Ponza player here, having previously played WB Eldrazi Taxes. I've been able to pick up a lot of the core for this deck, but there's still some piece I am missing/having a hard time getting my hands on at my LGS or via trades (Tireless Trackers, Inferno Titans, and Windswept Heaths - holding off on Birds until I find one that is not HP quality). Below is a copy of my current MB - do you think this is worth playing as is or should I hold off until I get the above threats and utility?
I do think that Jadelight Ranger most at home in decks that run cycling lands, as it can let you convert some of the mana flood into card advantage.
While not a snake deck, I want to test out the Jund deck that Craig Rocco got 18th place with at GP Memphis. It looks like a solid build for most match-ups, though I'd probably try to move Cut//Ribbons to the MB to add some inevitability. IDK if there is a way to really add snake to that list, as much as I'd love to.
I think its fairly useful in Snake decks b/c of the synergies, but I am starting to think it's greatest use is getting Eternalize creatures queued up for mid/late game shenanigans (for example, Earthshaker Khenra and Resilient Khenra from the RG Monster build that took 1st place at the GP). Most games I use it in Snake decks, I end up flipping a card that I don't want to go to my GY, so the card advantage part is negligible.
The Jund build that Craig Rocco ran caught my eye and has me thinking I may try a Jund explore build that may/may not have snake in it. The synergy is HUGE but there may not be room with all the other value I want to pack in (the Khenras, Cut/Ribbons, Etc.). I may just be a sucker for BGR decks :-D
I'm with you on the manabase. I've been running a similar base the last few weeks (I'm not buying BCCs... they're begging for a reprint the next time we're back in New Phyrexia and I can be patient) and have encountered very few issues. Are there times it screws you over? Of course. But at that point you're talking about percentage points and it's still more than good enough for say FNMs and low-moderate tournament activity IMO. It's most hurt my WR vs. Affinity from what I can see, but there's not much of that at my local meta.
On Dark Dwellers, I think it might be too high CMC to add much more value. For games that I get up to 5 lands in the BF, I've generally been able to stabilize and just need to ride the game out via YP and Reveler, the later of which generates better CA. Just my two cents.
I've not played Hollow One since including it, but imagine it can be useful in there as well to either shut down Ghasts and Phoenixes or kill Hollow One.
It's probably a meta decision more than anything. Sometimes you need a little extra oomph to the face or an extra Bolt removal to get the game done. The Lightning Helix version probably is a tad more aggressive depending on the #s, whereas Manamorphose lets us be a bit grindier. Against Humans, D&T, or other small creature decks it can be good. Meanwhile Goyf, Hollow One, Angler, Shadow, etc. that Helix won't be all that helpful where card draw + a free chump might buy you enough extra time.
Thanks! I hadn't thought about the Tracker synergy but that makes a ton of sense. Previously, I had been running Jadelight Rangers instead of Tracker because I didn't have any. HOWEVER, I just picked up my playset + my remaining dual lands while at GP DFW last weekend, so I ought to be able to take advantage of that now! Excited to take this out for a whirl again :-D
My thinking is that 5 CMC isn't too difficult to achieve, it creates more bodies, and can potentially deal more direct damage (and cheaper per sting) than P&K.
Hehe yes I did! Even with people calling me a degenerate for blowing up their lands.
What I'll most likely do is get 1x Stomping Ground with my store credit, then wait/trade for another. I'd like to also get the Trackers, but Jadelight has been doing well enough that I can stall for the price to fall further.
Match 1: 2-0 vs BW Tokens -- Hit some initial land d to throw them off tempo game 1, game 2 boarded out blood moon b/c they didn't actually run many duals. Instead added Bolt + Anger to clear tokens before my BBE/Titan pushes.
Match 2: 2-0 vs Mono Green Stompy -- I actually felt quite bad about how this played out and the guy was visibly frustrated. Both games I kept him down to 1 land while I ramped out Titan. Literally cascaded into Stone Rain back-to-back.
Match 3: 1-2 vs Burn -- Game 1 was a blow-out, but Game 2 I nailed the tempo control. Popped his Sacred Foundry early, then by the time he got another dual land I was able to drop Blood Moon to lock him out of his Helix/Charm. Game 3 I feel I lost to myself, having to mull down to 5 and no good turn 1-2 plays.
Match 4: 1-2 vs Naya Zoo -- Game 1 I had a good start, but didn't have enough pressure to keep his board clear. His list ran Thalia which out-tempo'd me. Game 2 I sandbagged Anger until he had over-extended, chump blocking with my Elf/Bird to stall, which he couldn't recover from. Game 3 I lost to a misplay, where I should have just cast my Anger to buy time but instead I tried to wait it out for more value.
As mentioned above, I'm really pleased with this given that it was my first go-around. The clearest upgrade path is definitely lands - the Cinder Glade ended up being a costly play in my opening hand for both the loss matches. Jadelight Ranger also proved to be a stellar card, delivering immediate value even if she was bolted (whereas Tireless Tracker would have ended up being a dud.
I am also considering running 2x Siege-Gang Commander in the place of 2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar. P&K offers a little more reach, but SGC can get you more bodies and up to 4x instances of 2 dmg (compared to P&K's 2).
Two quick questions on my end:
My local meta tends to have a lot of Humans, Burn, Tron, Eldrazi, and Hatebear/Taxes decks. There's occasionally some storm/KCI type decks running around. Based on this, what do you guys think of my MB and/or SB choices below?
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire (substitute for missing WHeath)
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Cinder Glade
1 Mountain
8 Forest
Creatures - 20
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Jadelight Ranger (still a substitute for Tracker)
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Glorybringer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Inferno Titan
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Blood Moon
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Stone Rain
3 Molten Rain
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3 Damping Sphere
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Sweltering Suns
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shatterstorm
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Chalice of the Void (don't have/can't find Trinispheres)
Agreed. Baird, Steward of Argive just seems to be way too expensive of a bear. If he were 3 CMC it might be worthwhile, but since we're sac'ing lands (GQ, FoR, TE) and our best Aether Vial value is 3 CMC, I don't see this making the cut.
4x Caves of Koilos
3x Concealed Courtyard
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Fetid Heath
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
2x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
Creatures
2x Blade Splicer
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Flickerwisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Wasteland Strangler
4x Aether Vial
4x Path to Exile
1x Thoughtseize
1x Auriok Champion
2x Fatal Push
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Rest in Peace
2x Settle the Wreckage
2x Stony Silence
Aside from a few one-offs that see play every now and again, my local meta generally consists of:
I figured Pontiff/Settle protect me from go-wide strategies, the Pushes help against Jund, Humans, and Zoo, RIP + Mirran Crusader can help against BGx based decks, and Kambal can help against Burn.
Auriok Champion is one I am experimenting with. It was an absolute game changer for me against Humans, as they were relying on a top deck in order to deal with it. In the meantime, it helped me rebound back and top-deck a Settle to clear their board. Burn will need Skullcrack to kill it, and I imagine its also quite difficult for Jund to deal with.
Again - would appreciate any suggestions you have! Sideboarding is probably my weakest skill in regards to this game...
I'll likely wait to give this a whirl that FNM until I get those Titans. I found a few reasonably priced ones on TCGPlayer (I was surprised how many stores were marking them up). Also, I'm hoping to fill in the remaining gaps via trades this weekend at the Dominaria prerelease and at GP Dallas-Fort Worth. Fingers crossed!
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire (substitute for missing WHeath)
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Cinder Glade
1 Mountain
8 Forest
4 Arbor Elf
2 Llanowar Elves (substitute for Birds)
4 Jadelight Ranger (substitute for Tracker)
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Glorybringer (substitute for Stormbreath/Inferno)
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Blood Moon
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Stone Rain
3 Molten Rain
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
The Jadelight Rangers make me want to add in Goblin Dark-Dwellers to be able to pitch my S/M Rains and flashback them with the ETB.
While not a snake deck, I want to test out the Jund deck that Craig Rocco got 18th place with at GP Memphis. It looks like a solid build for most match-ups, though I'd probably try to move Cut//Ribbons to the MB to add some inevitability. IDK if there is a way to really add snake to that list, as much as I'd love to.
The Jund build that Craig Rocco ran caught my eye and has me thinking I may try a Jund explore build that may/may not have snake in it. The synergy is HUGE but there may not be room with all the other value I want to pack in (the Khenras, Cut/Ribbons, Etc.). I may just be a sucker for BGR decks :-D