MTG Salvation

Yeah, that's what I was planning. An elfball deck with tons of mana elves (so many I don't want to list them all), Pilgrim of Avacyn and Birds of Paradise with the mill combo, and the typical elfball finisher in the form of giant creatures. A X cost hydra, Avenger, good ol Craterhoof Behemoth like Legacy Elves, and the nastiest eldrazi that the game has to offer. Now it's a matter of deciding what combo protection, tutors, dorks, big green or eldrazi monsters, creature protection, and which and how many combo pieces I need, and if I want to put in something like Overrun or Triumph of the Hordes, or Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury, even. Maybe I'm getting too cute and need to focus on pulling off the combo as fast as I can.

Thanks, I'll add that to the possible ways to protect the combo

Yeah, I'll have to do without Rofellos.. good catch, I'll remove him from the list.. I forgot they did away with "banned as commander". I still think it's doable with Priest of Titania in the combo

I'm finding that I really like my Boros midrange angels(Archangel Avacyn) deck now that I've played it more and learned how to pilot it, and the Meren of Clan Nel Tothreanimator deck I have is really fun, but I have the itch to build new decks. I've decided to try Selvala, Explorer Returned as a mill deck, so I need a way to constantly tap and untap Selvala either an infinite number of times, or a ridiculously large number of times, hopefully causing my opponents to deck themselves on the turn I have the combo assembled, or within two turns, because a massive mill one turn and an obvious lethal second mill on the table is sure to make me archenemy instantly.

Sword of the Paruns, Umbral Mantle, and Staff of Domination can make Priest of Titania produce infinite green mana with enough elves on the battlefield and I can then use that mana and the artifacts to cause Selvala to go infinite and do and simultaneously make all your opponents lose the game. You can use Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, discarding them during your discard step, cast Angel's Grace, Platinum Angel or an infinite number of Green Sun's Zenith casts to prevent you from decking yourself as you mill your opponents out. You can also create a lot, though not infinite mana with dorks + Paradox Engine or Gaea's Cradle.

To protect my combo maybe Privileged Position, Selfless Spirit Lapse of Certainty, Autumn's Veil, Avoid Fate, Null Brooch, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Kindred Boon, Lena, Selfless Champion, Make a Stand, Rootborn Defenses, Soul of New Phyrexia, Homeward Path, and single-target "make target indestructible" effects. Not sure how many of these to include and which ones. I see this deck as being weak to wipes, single target removal, and countering my dorks, untap artifacts, or GSZ. There is also the problem that everyone else will have their entire decks in their hands, and I run into a high probability that someone will draw into an answer and shut me down. Creature and artifact/equipment tutors seem like a must here. I also need a secondary wincon in case the milling fails, the obvious ones being casting the Eldrazi titans I have, Craterhoof Behemoth, Avenger of Zendikar, or possibly both with a Tooth and Nail, which could be another "oops I win" button.

Am I going about this the right way, or is there something I'm missing? The combo is reliant on my commander, but with all the mana I'll be generating, commander tax shouldn't hurt too much, but I still think I need backup plans. Is there a decklist out there already that's powerful and does what I want to do? My budget is $20 per card, except Gaea's Cradle and Craterhoof Behemoth, which I own.

Advice is very much appreciated. What I'm looking for is like something quite powerful, but not quite cEDH win on turn 3, 4, or 5 powerful. Thanks in advance for advice, I'm kind of at a loss as to how to put something like this together, and what I want my curve to look like for a ramp-y deck. I'm very much a novice builder.

Edit: Removed Rofellos because I had forgotten that he was banned.

Thanks, that's good advice. The only real reason I care about the win rate is because it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 3%-4%. I had a guy pull me aside and tell me that my decks don't have enough synergy in them. I can't get him to answer why he steals my creatures regardless of if I'm the biggest threat or not. I plan to add Poison-Tip Archer but have no idea what to cut for it.

Back to the Starke player, I play big creatures. He destroys or steals whatever I have that's good, and if he doesn't someone else does. I can't keep beaters on the table for more than a couple turns, It's pretty crummy when I feel like I have to remove one player from the game before I can have any fun, and often he's leaving big bombs like Niv Mizzet (either one), Avenger of Zendikar.. combo pieces like Seedborn Muse, Fauna Shaman, and Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Isochron Scepter, Mimic Vat, and various other creatures and powerful artifacts on the table while he kills/steals my Akroma, Angel of Wrath, either Gisela, Bruna, the Fading Light, or even something pretty useless to him like a Herald of War sometimes, most of the time using a sac outlet to kill the creature after he's done with it. I may remove It that Betrays from my deck because I get really bad feels from theft, and I'd be playing theft with it.

Even if he wasn't the biggest obstacle to me winning, what he's doing still makes me feel terrible. I've considered quitting a couple times, mostly because of him. Part of me is afraid that he's going to steal my beaters in this deck, too. It's a Timmy's worst nightmare. I hope this deck is fun to play, because I can't play angels anymore. Meren isn't even the right colors for them. Sorry I'm harping so much on this. This is just my main issue, and I find I have a much better time when he doesn't come, or when he plays his Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck. How do I tell him that it ruins the game for me? Do I?

Tl;dr: I want to have a few big creatures in my deck, but I'm worried that the same thing will just keep happening again. Wondering how I deal with one deck that, were it out of the local meta, I'd have a lot more fun. Meren looks cool, but I'm not really keen on the art on most black cards. Kokusho is very cool, and is a dragon, so that's fun. I just don't get to play any angels. Maybe I need to upgrade my Archangel Avacyn deck after I make this one. Someone showed me a list that is more stax-oriented.

I decided to make the following changes to the deck. I may post my list later after I've fiddled with it a bit.


Once I have the funds, I will change the lands too for more optimal ones, replacing a few at a time:

Things have gotten better since Carla started showing up. I think they've gotten used to the idea of playing with women, so they've been nice. I think the true problem like people have said is that my deck looks more dangerous than it is. I've been getting less hate, so they either realize I'm not a huge threat, or they've gotten nicer. I think with a slow value building Meren deck and learning politics I think I can win more often. Regardless of winning, Aristocrats looks like a ton of fun. I wonder how the deck got its name, btw. This is the first time I'll be playing a graveyard deck, so it sounds like a nice change and a lot of fun. I can still have big creatures like Kokusho, Massacre Worm, or maybe a Tooth and Nail grabbing Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth. That's fair combat damage, which is likely better than a cheesy combo in regards to how people see me... plus it lets me indulge my inner Timmy.

I found a deck that I like the concept of, but I feel like it can be improved. The mana base is a mess, and I feel like it needs another sac outlet or two, and more ramp (good mana dorks like Deathrite Shaman and Birds of Paradise. I like this concept, and I like the big creatures they included for endgame. I also think we can include Assassin's Trophy. The deck is here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/19-09-17-meren-value/ . I think it also needs Homeward Path. I REALLY like that the deck uses Kokusho, the Evening Star and Massacre Wurm. I own Assassin's Trophy and Overgrown Tomb and would like to use both of them. I just don't feel like this deck is as strong as it could be for a budget. Am I wrong?

I think I'm leaning in the direction of doing an Aristocrats deck. Other than Krav/Regna, I have Alesha, Who Smiles At Death, Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Marchesa, the Black Rose, Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Lyzolda, the Blood Witch, Liliana, Heretical Healer, or Elenda, the Dusk Rose if I want to stick to angels or women. With Aristocrats, I don't care if creatures die, that just brings me closer to a win.

Looking at the commanders for a bit, Meren, Marchesa, and Alesha give me creatures back from my graveyard, Regna, Elendra and Teysa give me tokens, and Savra, Teysa, and Krav give me a sac outlet. And flipped Liliana gives me creatures back, and discard.
Okay, I think I've narrowed it down to Meren, Alesha, or Krav/Regna. And my strategy is Aristocrats (creature sacrifice/graveyard interaction). I see very little if any graveyard hate in my meta, so this seems like a very solid strategy. Something to keep in mind is that I just pulled Assassin's Trophy if I play Meren, and I have a couple Mardu staples if I play Alesha. My budget is $20US per card.. though if I REALLY have to, I'll pay a little more than that for a black board wipe (Like Toxic Deluge or maybe Damnation), so long as I have a card I can use as a replacement until I can afford them. All Is Dust, Nev's Disk and etc are always options too.

Yeah, I am struggling, and didn't want to mention anything because I was afraid I'd hurt Weltkrieg, you, and the other people who've helped me with decks. To be honest, neither of my current decks are fully optimized yet. I'm missing some of the cards we decided on. That is likely a factor. I have been putting my money lately into my Duel Commander deck and have found much more success with that. In Duel Commander I end up at x-0, x-1, and x-0-1 in nearly every tournament I enter. I was having a lot of fun playing burn. I thought I'd found my format. Then, people stopped showing up, and the tournaments on Wednesdays were canceled.

So, I've started playing multiplayer commander again, and my win rate is quite close to 3%. I'm often focused down first, my creatures get killed/ stolen/ stolen and sacrificed or steal made permanent with Bazaar Trader. I find creatures being stolen and being attacked by my own creatures to be kinda demoralizing. There has been more than once that I've been killed by commander damage from my own commander.

The conditions of what I'm trying to build is a deck that can compete in a semi-casual environment (like 75%ish), and one that is resistant to/ has answers for stax and creature theft. I really want to have an angel as a commander, so it seems like what I'm shooting for is building the most competitive budget deck I can with Krav and Regna, or an angel in Boros, Bant, mono white or Selesnya. I feel like mono-white has some glaring weaknesses, though, and Tariel costs a TON of mana, and I think a four color mana base for Atraxa is likely cost-prohibitive. I like the idea of having some sort of deterrent, like good removal, maybe an Aetherflux Reservoir with a ton of life built up. The Starke of Rath deck may not always be the strongest at the table, I just feel like it makes playing larger creatures a lot less fun, so I'd like to shut it down. Honestly, I wish that Justin just plain didn't play it, but it would be unfair of me to ask him that. His deck just makes me not want to play any good creatures, which makes me really sad.

Angels are big creatures with evasion, and often other nice keywords like lifelink, vigilance, and often have good utility abilities. A permanent theft of an angel can also give the person doing it a blocker to handle my other fliers, and crippling to my deck in terms of a lost synergy. Stealing a Voltron commander or killing it is also pretty obviously beneficial to the person doing it. The person who plays the theft deck is nice to me outside of games, but his constant messing with the core plans of my decks is starting to cause hard feelings against him. There have been times where I've refused to play if I see Starke in his command zone. Not playing feels ALMOST as bad as having a good creature stolen before I can get a good board state, and it's starting to feel to me like he may want to ruin my day. Others attack me before I'm threatening and while other people have much better board states. It all comes down to the fact that, correct or not, I feel like I'm being picked on and that people don't want me at the table, or find some perverse joy in repeatedly curbstomping me before I'm even really a threat, so I never really become one. I feel pretty powerless. Having been through what I have in other respects, I don't play Magic to feel powerless.

What I want is a pretty competitive deck (though not a wins on turn 4 or turn 5 type competitive) that doesn't make me always the archenemy at the table, that can be built for less than $20 a card (exceptions of a couple dollars give or take could be made for something like having an Exquisite Blood/Sanguine Bond level combo). I'd VERY strongly prefer that my commander be an angel, and failing that, would prefer female over male. I'm hoping that a strong budget deck with an angel as a commander is doable. Krav/Regna looks like it could have potential. I need to have a think about which one excites me.

Folks, do you think that maybe playing Krav + Regna would be the way to go? It seems like lifegain, and making a ton of tokens just to sac them might go under the radar for a bit... oh, she's just gaining life, so let's focus on someone more threatening? Krav gets bigger every time you sac creatures to him, but he doesn't fly or trample or have any other combat keywords. I think I'm liking the idea of them better than Sigarda. I've been wanting to experiment with a lifegain deck. I just don't know if it's the right combination of competitive and seemingly less harmless than what is around.

First, to address why I find Starke so dangerous is that because I play the strongest creatures (a medium sized to large angel or my Voltron deck commander loaded up with enough equipment to be a big threat) he tends to target my creatures with theft or destruction. His strategy pretty well counters my strategy of using big creatures to win. He will either destroy creatures with something like Blasphemous Act or Chain Reaction, or use Starke to kill, often getting Starke back with Homeward Path or with a combo where he puts two Starke triggers on the stack, the second one being one of his indestructible permanents (Darksteel Ingot, Darksteel Citadel, etc.), or he will steal something with Act of Treason, Conquering Manticore and other such cards, or sometimes steal everything with Insurrection, then kill a creature or two with Starke, or all of them with a sac outlet, or make the steal permanent with the Bazaar Trader combo, or using a Helm of Possession or Helm of Obedience to just outright permanently steal. Or if he's got a mana doubler out, he can afford to lose some of his lands (which are snow-covered, so he can make Extraplanar Lens only apply to him because he's the only person playing snow lands, and can use Scrying Sheets and Skred, which is usually more than big enough to deal with a huge angel or a Voltron commander before it gains indestructibility or hexproof/shroud/prot red.

Also, it feels really crummy for me to be beaten to death by my own stuff. That feels even worse than just being the first person to die. I've even gone so far as, after playing against his deck once and having him steal the stuff that's critical to my strategy, or if I'm already stressed and not in the mood to play against him, I'll either refuse to play, or refuse to play unless he's playing his Golgari elf deck. He's a nice guy, I doubt he has a vendetta against me, but a lot of games it's him with his Starke deck and me both trying to neutralize each other's strategies, and I'm starting to get hard feelings, even though he's a nice guy otherwise and I'd consider him a good friend.

As for other decks like the Grenzo, he only was able to pull off the Doomsday combo once before everyone figured out that you can't leave Grenzo unmolested or else he runs away with the game. If we see Grenzo, we make sure to hold removal or transformation cards to stop him (Pongify, Lignify, Darksteel Mutation, Beast Within, Humility), or one of the many flavors of counterspell, or else counter the Doomsday. Grenzo dude doesn't come often, and he's a bit more likely to play his other deck now that he knows Grenzo is Public Enemy #1. His Grenzo is also not tuned extremely well, or piloted not exactly right. When he won it was on like... turn 6ish.

With the environment of playing at the local game store, people come and go, so I have to be ready for everything. I just know that Starke will 99% of the time be in the pod. Every once in a while someone comes with a fast combo deck, or even something cEDH worthy, or with MLD, but due to social pressure anything with MLD or that wins faster than, say, turn 6-8ish will get a negative response, and one of us asking, "do you have another deck you can play?" or "do you want to borrow one of my decks?" I think that someone who uses MLD and then reasonably promptly wins would likely be seen better than someone who plays MLD just to reset the game and then durdles.

TL;DR: I care about the Starke deck because it disrupts mine more often than other decks do, and it makes the game unfun and is starting to make me think about why I play EDH in the first place, and makes me feel like the Starke player as well as the rest of the table are picking on me. It's high school all over again.

My meta is one player playing Starke of Rath with theft, which is what made me think Sigarda. We also Grenzo Doomsday, some U/x control, a Phelddagrif deck that's designed simply to piss people off and doesn't appear to have a wincon. I've never seen Kenny pull it off. Lately there have been people coming in and out, and because my groups are at a game store I have to be ready for just about anything. The only people who show up every week are me and the guy with the Starke deck that's always destroying and stealing stuff. So, I see a benefit to playing a deck that either doesn't depend on its commander, or if the commander is hard to kill and steal. Also holding back Bruna until I'm ready and then taking out the Starke player. My problem now is that I really suck at making decks, and now I need one that's really tight and competitive enough for everything but a cEDH table. I'd also like a deck that's a little bit forgiving because I don't play Magic to be stressed out. I'd also very much prefer that there be an angel as my commander. A couple more angels in the deck would be fun, but it's not necessary at all. I also have a budget of $20 per card. I like the idea of playing U/W Bruna, Jenara, or Sigarda, Host of Herons. Tariel doesn't look interesting to me, it seems to me like Atraxa's mana base would be way outside my price range, and mono-white or Boros angels would probably have lots of weaknesses that could only be solved with lots of money.

I thought that Sigarda's protection would make her a lot better. She's really hard to deal with. Would Bruna, Light of Alabaster be a better option then? Put a lot of my deck into my graveyard, get Bruna out, and insta-whack people? I'd have counterspell, a ton of good enchantments and stax support in my colors. That's bursty and combo-ish. Self-mill and crazy recursion in the command zone. Or how would you build Jenara? Honestly Jenara is sounding like my best option for if I REALLY want an angel commander. Would you recommend the Jenara primer? There are tips for making it budget-friendly.

Edit: I've found that even with budget substitutions the deck is still around $600.
Also, Dirk, are saying using an angel as a commander is always a bad idea?

I asked for ideas on what to build for play at my LGS, both here and on Reddit, and it seems like Yisan, Wanderer Bard and Sigarda, Host of Herons are my best options for a deck that can be pretty competitive (75%-80%) on a budget. My current decks perform very poorly. I've won 4 games out of over 100 I've played, both my equipment Voltron with Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith and my Angel midrange with Archangel Avacyn combined. I'm going to be building Sigarda now, and Yisan later. My current budget is $20 per card, but I feel I need to make an exception for Sylvan Library, because it's just that awesome.

Anyway, my idea is an enchantress Voltron deck, focusing primarily on getting auras and maybe a couple equipments on Sigarda to make her big and scary. She's very hard to get rid of to begin with, but giving her indestructible would make her immune to anything other than creature or all permanent wipes that exile (of which there are VERY few. The only I can name are Aligned Hedron Network, Angel of the Dire Hour, Final Judgment, Descend Upon the Sinful, Martyr's Cry, Merciless Eviction, Settle the Wreckage), and Godsend, which exiles one creature, but doesn't target. I've only ever seen Angel of the Dire Hour, Merciless Eviction, and Settle the Wreckage ever actually get played, and Angel of the Dire hour only played by me.

I'd need plenty of cheap ramp to get Sigarda down on turn 3 or 4. There are some enchantments that do this, which is good synergy with an enchantress build.


You also have lots of mana dorks to get the job done (Including rarely played ones like Selvala, Explorer Returned).

Enchantments and possibly a piece of equipment or two can buff, make indestructible, or both. I know that a core of the strategy will be buffing Sigarda. Would instants that buff also be useful? I can always put down Sigarda's Aid to make auras and equipment into combat tricks. Would I want backups in case Sigarda is dealt with, like Kor Spiritdancer or Rabid Wombat, or would that water down the strategy and make it less competitive?

For card draw I have enchantresses, Herald of the Pantheon, and perhaps Selvala can serve as a dork and draw. Do I want to have some non-enchantment sources of ramp and buffs so that one enchantment wipe doesn't completely ruin my day? Is there a more competitive way to run Sigarda than this? Any help is appreciated. Like I said, I'd like to keep it to under $20 per card, making Sylvan Library an exception to this.