Hey all, desperate player here. I recently returned to Storm since the new lists with Baral seemed very conistent and fun to play.
This has been true, but I keep getting DESTROYED by all the different Shadow decks, Grixis being the worst.
I bought the deck on mtgo as well, and am currently sitting at a disheartening 2-6 against Shadow decks. Siding in all the Empties is great in theory; and in fact the games I have won were mostly on the back of some number of angry Goblins. However, even when I did get some Goblins into play, I keep getting wrecked by the anti-hate savvy Shadow players are now adapting, like Detention Sphere , Izzet Staticaster and Anger of the Gods.
I just now read about taking out Gifts for Pieces and Empties, so far I have been cutting Remands and Peer's, since those do not help recouping the lost cards. I will try that in my next league. Moreover, a friend has been playing MD Apostle's Blessing to some success, but I am still wondering:
Is there something more that we can play/do in these matchups, or is the matchup just that bad without something drastic like Leyline?
I would keep in Peer Through Depths because you want as many cards as possible that actually find your business spells.
I haven't had much difficulty playing against this deck. People keep saying the matchup is difficult so I suspect that I might just be playing against inexeperienced players, but my experience is that Death's Shadow decks actively attempt to reduce their life total below 10 and Storm spells make it pretty easy to string together that much damage--even a low number of Goblins isn't bad, and I've won quite a few games attacking with Electromancer backed by Lightning Bolts and Grapeshot.
I played in an event yesterday. My deck was a typical Temples/Spoils list, except that I took out one Unlife for Gideon, and I normally play a Mystical Teachings + Pure Intentions from the board and this time I put in a one-of Glorious End. I lost two of my games to Spoils killing me so insert the usual complaining about that--to be fair, the first time I killed myself, I got greedy: My opponent was stuck on one land with a Delver in play, and I had 3 Pacts in hand. I could have waited, but instead I cast Spoils of the Vault for Ad Nauseam and exiled all of my win conditions.
Gideon was interesting. I only drew it twice. Once against Eldrazi Tron where it was no different than Phyrexian Unlife, and then once against an Esper Control player. So let me tell you about this match. Game 1, I don't draw Ad Nauseam for 12 turns. Game 2, I lead on Thoughtseize and my opponent has Surgical, Snapcaster, Path. I take Snapcaster, then my opponent topdecks Thoughtseize, discards my Ad Nauseam, and Surgical's it. My opponent's deck has no pressure so we play draw go until I draw a Gideon, and start ticking it up. My opponent draws 3 Celestial Collonade in a row though, so Gideon dies. I should have attacked with Gideon at least once to bait out my opponent's Path but I didn't think about it. Eventually, the game is decided when my opponent decides to tap low for Jace, and I respond with Mystical Teachings and Flash it back for Pact of Negation and Glorious End (I shouldn't have gotten Glorious End, I should have gotten another Pact instead). My turn I cast Laboratory Maniac, Angel's Grace, Serum Visons and respond to that with Spoils of the Vault. He tries to counter Spoils but I have Pact, and he tries to Path Lab Man but I have a second Pact.
I've leveled up a bit since playing this game last week, but still am definitely not a good combo player yet. Gotta keep playing this deck out, it's a blast.
Are you still playing the deck? It's a pretty tricky deck to learn but watching other players will definitely help.
I would assume the reason is that Faithless Looting is card disadvantage if you don't use the graveyard. It makes your hand better, but it puts you down on front-end resources when you're trying to build up to being able to use Past in Flames, and you can't recoup that lost advantage if your opponent is messing with your graveyard like they are likely to do in postboard games.
Keep in mind that you lose your hand forever if your opponent destroys a Bottled Cloister, and since your deck already plays 8 pretty important artifacts you're vulnerable to splash damage from opponents trying to K-Command or Ancient Grudge you.
I don't like thought scour much in the deck. When testing I've found that it just isn't necessary for the normal combo and there are other thing we can run it it's spot. Specifically with 4 gifts I like running at least 2 copies of looting/reunion/izzet charm. I suspect that the correct choice is reunion. Also you need the third island to be able to safely play Blood Moon. Two is just not enough to reliably be able to have blue mana post moon. The list I settled on was that list -3 Thought Scour, -1 Remand, +1 Dispel, +1 Noxious Revival, +2 Cathartic Reunion.
However the more I test with cathartic reunion and ascension the more I like it. As long as there aren't too many remands floating around it feels very strong and can lead to some pretty explosive turns.
I agree the cantrip slots could be improved. Without Pyromancer Ascension, Thought Scour only feeds Past in Flames. I liked Peer through Depths back when Song was legal and Epic Experiment was playable. With a Mancer, Peer into a ritual is a net +2 storm and +1 mana. I'd drop the Scours or Remands for those.
I wouldn't play Looting or Izzet Charm. They're card disadvantage. The only exception is if you're playing Unburial Rites so you can use it to dump Rites or the fatty if you happen to draw them.
The Gifts build doesn't need blue mana as badly as non-Gifts. You don't have to chain a bunch of blue cantrips. Resolving Gifts with 3 mana floating is generally game over, and you only need one blue mana for Gifts. That said, I'm not averse to cutting the Hallowed Fountain for a basic Island as I feel it isn't worth it for just 2 SB cards (4, if you want to count hardcast Leylines).
Guys! What usually are you siding (and unsiding) against infect?
- your worst/most expensive cantrip
+ Bolts and Echoing Truth
I don't like Thought Scour either, but I'm torn on Peer Through Depths. This deck is pretty dependent on finding Gifts to get things done, but I have been finding that I want one mana cantrips that are capable of finding lands. The only other option I can think of is Peek and that doesn't seem great either.
Is the second Grapeshot needed? When I am playing Solitaire it seems unneeded, but I can imagine there's a reason that isn't apparent due to my lack of experience with the deck or in real situations.
Also, is this deck particularly weak to discard to make you want the Leylines?
There isn't much Modern in my area so I haven't been able to actually play against any opponents, so I've been focusing on actually learning how to play the deck. What I have been using to learn is similar to eldskald's list, with a few changes that come from literally playing against 0 people.
I have no idea how effective removal and disruption are because I have no experience. Bolts feel dead to me if you're not killing something that stops you from winning, and I'm not sure whether Spell Pierce being a soft counter or Swan Song putting a clock on you is more dangerous. I felt like either one could be pretty bad when you sputter out, but I'm liking the idea of Swan Song because you can make your own Wind Drake by countering a Ritual and being a hard counter seems like a better place to be in general but I really want spells to actually be countered if I'm playing Baral.
Turn 3 wins are more possible than I would have anticipated, but other than that the Rituals don't do anything, so I understand the reason for not playing the full sets of either one. It has helped me see how well Electromancer + Gifts is basically a two card combo since I felt like I had some hands filled with do-nothing Rituals that could still win the game so I'm understanding that just running your Manamorphoses out as free spells isn't too bad, etc.; rituals have helped me win on turn 3 even without drawing a third land, but I wish I just had more cantrips to hit my lands instead. Basically, I'm not used to Modern variance...I feel like I keep alternating between being super flooded and having no lands at all. I like the idea of going down to 18 lands if there is a good cantrip worth putting in the deck to take the spot of the extra rituals and the land. Noxious Revival for fetchlands has come up a few times so I'm less hesitant to actually have the card in the deck.
Also, Baral Remanding your own spells to cantrip feels pretty good. I don't have enough experience to know if that warrants playing the 4th Remand because I couldn't tell you how right it is to hold up Remand mana when you're playing the card as intended.
I don't know about Empty the Warrens yet, but I feel like this deck is playing it because you aren't getting much done if you don't find a Gifts so it's just something extra you can draw to not be as dependent on finding Gifts.
I bit the bullet and bought most of the cards to play the UR version you've cooked up there. I have 0 experience playing this deck and little experience playing Modern (I've had Ad Nauseam for a year but it's Ad Nauseam so...) We'll see how this goes when my cards come in.
Has anyone considered recording themselves playing this deck? The original thread drew a lot of comparisons to playing Doomsday, and I found that the best way to learn how that deck works was to watch someone play a Daily Event. Merely watching someone execute a Storm win with Gifts Ungiven would probably drum up more interest in the deck.
I made Top 4 of an event in my area yesterday (I'm in Japan and Christmas isn't a big deal here so yeah).
I played a carbon copy of the maindeck from the GP Winner, but I messed around with the sideboard.
This is what I played in my Sideboard:
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Ethereal Haze
1 Silence
1 Gigadrowse
1 Pure Intentions
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
2 Mystical Teachings
4 Leyline of Sanctity
I'm not an experienced Ad Nauseam player and I barely play Modern, so I imagine I could have made a better board. As it stands, there is usually one Infect player in my area, and there's a lot of discard. I hate losing to discard so I warped my board pretty badly to fight it. That being said, holy crap I did not understand how powerful Mystical Teachings is. My discard opponents were basically helpless if I was able to draw it.
I ultimately lost in the Semifinals to my friend playing an RUG Kiki-Jiki deck with Traverse the Ulvenwald that he brewed up (I mulliganed to 5 and couldn't recover).
One thing I do want to ask though is this: ...Is the Tron matchup *really* that good? I keep hearing people say that they just don't sideboard or even address the matchup in any way because it's that easy, but I always get messed up bad any time I play against the deck. It seems like my opponents always have Tron early and their threats are always disruptive in ways that line up perfectly with what I'm doing. I'm not sure I could say I'm super unlucky, so is there something about the matchup that you believe a new player may be doing wrong that can cause issues here?
Barring circumstances beyond your control (Spoils of the Vault), you can avoid this situation from happening by simply planning ahead and not playing out your lands past a certain point.
Not everyone is getting assistance, not everyone needs to go to the doctor, and I know tons of people who just decided "Don't get caught" is better than getting a license. That isn't even accounting for the fact that poor people can't take the time off of work to go the the DMV and there have been instances of states actually cutting back on DMV hours after passing laws to require photo ID.
Well if they are employed they better have an ID to get the job plus those are all excuses. You are basically saying if you are poor you are to dumb, lazy,law breakers or dont have enough time to obtain an ID.
Being dumb, lazy, lawbreaking, or having having no time to go to the DMV does not preclude the right to vote for a US Citizen. Trying to marginalize people who fit into any of these groups is the real excuse here. It sounds like you were fortunate enough to be in a position where you had the documents, time, and money required to procure an ID if you didn't already have one before your situation became bad, and you've really got your blinders on to assume that everyone has similar access to these things. There are people who don't ask for government assistance for whatever reason, so you're wrong to assume this is an automatic thing that all poor people do. Not just that, but there are people who don't have access to proof of their SSN; obtaining an official birth certificate takes time and costs a lot of money (and I know multiple people who have had issues because their birth certificate was recorded incorrectly, like my younger brother who has my mother's first husband listed as the father causing his order to be delayed for weeks); homeless people may have no current proof of residency in the state they're in, etc. Also, it was pointed out that licenses expire, so you don't necessarily have to be resorting to illegal activity to be in a position where it is a burden for you to obtain ID.
Not everyone is getting assistance, not everyone needs to go to the doctor, and I know tons of people who just decided "Don't get caught" is better than getting a license. That isn't even accounting for the fact that poor people can't take the time off of work to go the the DMV and there have been instances of states actually cutting back on DMV hours after passing laws to require photo ID.
I would keep in Peer Through Depths because you want as many cards as possible that actually find your business spells.
I haven't had much difficulty playing against this deck. People keep saying the matchup is difficult so I suspect that I might just be playing against inexeperienced players, but my experience is that Death's Shadow decks actively attempt to reduce their life total below 10 and Storm spells make it pretty easy to string together that much damage--even a low number of Goblins isn't bad, and I've won quite a few games attacking with Electromancer backed by Lightning Bolts and Grapeshot.
Gideon was interesting. I only drew it twice. Once against Eldrazi Tron where it was no different than Phyrexian Unlife, and then once against an Esper Control player. So let me tell you about this match. Game 1, I don't draw Ad Nauseam for 12 turns. Game 2, I lead on Thoughtseize and my opponent has Surgical, Snapcaster, Path. I take Snapcaster, then my opponent topdecks Thoughtseize, discards my Ad Nauseam, and Surgical's it. My opponent's deck has no pressure so we play draw go until I draw a Gideon, and start ticking it up. My opponent draws 3 Celestial Collonade in a row though, so Gideon dies. I should have attacked with Gideon at least once to bait out my opponent's Path but I didn't think about it. Eventually, the game is decided when my opponent decides to tap low for Jace, and I respond with Mystical Teachings and Flash it back for Pact of Negation and Glorious End (I shouldn't have gotten Glorious End, I should have gotten another Pact instead). My turn I cast Laboratory Maniac, Angel's Grace, Serum Visons and respond to that with Spoils of the Vault. He tries to counter Spoils but I have Pact, and he tries to Path Lab Man but I have a second Pact.
Are you still playing the deck? It's a pretty tricky deck to learn but watching other players will definitely help.
What do you believe the advantages of playing a card like Sage of Epityr are?
Keep in mind that you lose your hand forever if your opponent destroys a Bottled Cloister, and since your deck already plays 8 pretty important artifacts you're vulnerable to splash damage from opponents trying to K-Command or Ancient Grudge you.
I don't like Thought Scour either, but I'm torn on Peer Through Depths. This deck is pretty dependent on finding Gifts to get things done, but I have been finding that I want one mana cantrips that are capable of finding lands. The only other option I can think of is Peek and that doesn't seem great either.
Is the second Grapeshot needed? When I am playing Solitaire it seems unneeded, but I can imagine there's a reason that isn't apparent due to my lack of experience with the deck or in real situations.
Also, is this deck particularly weak to discard to make you want the Leylines?
-3 Bolt, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Empty the Warrens
+1 Pyretic, 1 Desperate Ritual, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Swan Song, 1 Merchant Scroll
I have no idea how effective removal and disruption are because I have no experience. Bolts feel dead to me if you're not killing something that stops you from winning, and I'm not sure whether Spell Pierce being a soft counter or Swan Song putting a clock on you is more dangerous. I felt like either one could be pretty bad when you sputter out, but I'm liking the idea of Swan Song because you can make your own Wind Drake by countering a Ritual and being a hard counter seems like a better place to be in general but I really want spells to actually be countered if I'm playing Baral.
Turn 3 wins are more possible than I would have anticipated, but other than that the Rituals don't do anything, so I understand the reason for not playing the full sets of either one. It has helped me see how well Electromancer + Gifts is basically a two card combo since I felt like I had some hands filled with do-nothing Rituals that could still win the game so I'm understanding that just running your Manamorphoses out as free spells isn't too bad, etc.; rituals have helped me win on turn 3 even without drawing a third land, but I wish I just had more cantrips to hit my lands instead. Basically, I'm not used to Modern variance...I feel like I keep alternating between being super flooded and having no lands at all. I like the idea of going down to 18 lands if there is a good cantrip worth putting in the deck to take the spot of the extra rituals and the land. Noxious Revival for fetchlands has come up a few times so I'm less hesitant to actually have the card in the deck.
Also, Baral Remanding your own spells to cantrip feels pretty good. I don't have enough experience to know if that warrants playing the 4th Remand because I couldn't tell you how right it is to hold up Remand mana when you're playing the card as intended.
I don't know about Empty the Warrens yet, but I feel like this deck is playing it because you aren't getting much done if you don't find a Gifts so it's just something extra you can draw to not be as dependent on finding Gifts.
I played a carbon copy of the maindeck from the GP Winner, but I messed around with the sideboard.
This is what I played in my Sideboard:
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Ethereal Haze
1 Silence
1 Gigadrowse
1 Pure Intentions
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
2 Mystical Teachings
4 Leyline of Sanctity
I'm not an experienced Ad Nauseam player and I barely play Modern, so I imagine I could have made a better board. As it stands, there is usually one Infect player in my area, and there's a lot of discard. I hate losing to discard so I warped my board pretty badly to fight it. That being said, holy crap I did not understand how powerful Mystical Teachings is. My discard opponents were basically helpless if I was able to draw it.
I ultimately lost in the Semifinals to my friend playing an RUG Kiki-Jiki deck with Traverse the Ulvenwald that he brewed up (I mulliganed to 5 and couldn't recover).
One thing I do want to ask though is this: ...Is the Tron matchup *really* that good? I keep hearing people say that they just don't sideboard or even address the matchup in any way because it's that easy, but I always get messed up bad any time I play against the deck. It seems like my opponents always have Tron early and their threats are always disruptive in ways that line up perfectly with what I'm doing. I'm not sure I could say I'm super unlucky, so is there something about the matchup that you believe a new player may be doing wrong that can cause issues here?
Being dumb, lazy, lawbreaking, or having having no time to go to the DMV does not preclude the right to vote for a US Citizen. Trying to marginalize people who fit into any of these groups is the real excuse here. It sounds like you were fortunate enough to be in a position where you had the documents, time, and money required to procure an ID if you didn't already have one before your situation became bad, and you've really got your blinders on to assume that everyone has similar access to these things. There are people who don't ask for government assistance for whatever reason, so you're wrong to assume this is an automatic thing that all poor people do. Not just that, but there are people who don't have access to proof of their SSN; obtaining an official birth certificate takes time and costs a lot of money (and I know multiple people who have had issues because their birth certificate was recorded incorrectly, like my younger brother who has my mother's first husband listed as the father causing his order to be delayed for weeks); homeless people may have no current proof of residency in the state they're in, etc. Also, it was pointed out that licenses expire, so you don't necessarily have to be resorting to illegal activity to be in a position where it is a burden for you to obtain ID.