I feel the shift going from using other cantrips to hieroglyphic has been rock solid for me. The smooth feel I have in my games to be able to have spots where I can keep up appearances for cryptic and instead get ahead for card advantage sold me. The downside is that Jace had to leave as a result. Jace brings a lot to the equation, but the problem with Jace is that he needs to draw into powerful cards (I.E. terminus). With Teferi, not so much. Teferi inches himself forward a little each time whereas Jace either flips a terminus and stabilizes or draws you into the other half of your deck for non-terminus matchups.
So, conclusion is that Jace does not appear to be a value oriented engine for card advantage rather than he is a necessary piece towards slving a specific problem. A lot of Jeskai players like Purcell http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/125952 used Jace as a 1 of but you'll notice their cantrips outside of Jace have shifted compared to the Teferi only lists https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1561166#paper . And in Jeskai it makes so much more sense to differentiate from U/W because your game plan is different. In so many of my games w/ Jeskai miracles I had far more board wipes than I ever wanted and games dragged on only for me to draw into more useless terminus. With Teferi-only it allows me to play a more dense threat deck while still maintaining wrath affects when needed.
TLDR: If you want to best utilize Jace it is best in U/W. If you want to best utilize Teferi/snap It's playing them with more instant-speed 1-4 mana spells. Also Jeskai is the better Azcanta deck imo. U/W cuts azcanta to 1 in favor of more cantrips now.
I played with the 3 teferi list with some added spell snares/shadow of doubts hedging for blue decks and titan in place of a 3rd hieroglyphic and runed halo from https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1561166#paper. I really felt hieroglyphic was just better than having jace in the deck as I don't have to play at sorcery speed and it keeps up cryptic. Teferi won every game he was cast in and I never felt I was low on cards. I would love to be able to find spots for Jace in this list but I just think hieroglyphic is the way to go to have less weaknesses vs. some matchups. I.E. Combo/Control.
Played vs. grixis control/abzan and mono red goblins. Went 2-1 and lost to goblins after drawing too many lands vs a constant regenerating board. Putting in staticaster to help combat this. I do have a 1 of Jace is the board vs. certain match ups that will allow him to shine. I.E. amulet titan, control mirrors w/o combo, attrition-style decks w/ lilliana. All of these kinds of decks do brilliantly if I stabilize and slam jace, but my meta is all over the place right now so main boarding him is risky.
I have celestial purge, Engineered explosives, Lyra and ancestral visions in the board to wreck vs Jund specifically. Ideally versus attrition-style decks you just need a way to front load some card advantage as opposed to smoothing it out and you'll win out after trading 1-for-1 in the end because your finishers are stronger. Also cards like search for azcanta are going to be huge in this matchup; defending it is worth it if at all possible.
@TomCourtney One of the reasons I'm not playing hieroglyphic is the standout difference it has between cycling and
full casting it. The list you have here looks rather reactive and that's what I've always liked about electrolyze. Even
when it's not great it still progresses multiple gameplans between pressure, removal and drawing cards. I'm also adamant about
my decision to cut path for bolt just because most creatures aren't out of bolt range and 3 is plenty to deal w/ threats that need to
be exiled. I'm also really happy w/ mainboard negate. My meta is extremely diverse so having more permission spells w/o hamstrings helps
a lot and I find Knot+Negate dealing with everything my removal package can't while Jace/Electrolyze stabilize in an almost attrition/ style
of fashion between trading 1 for 1 or making their draws worse and increasing loyalty.
TLDR: I've been having more success having a proactive gameplan that can switch/pivot between control/tempo on a dime. I may even look to try
more geist in the board just because of how few options it leaves opponents.
Went 3-1 beating 8 rack, Burn, and U/R Phoenix and losing to KCI in 3
Adjustments I made from my list including cutting collonade for a sulfur falls. Really need faster dual colored mana early
and the colonnade loss feels minimal when closing w/ the plethora of other options.
SB
-1 Surical, -1 Vendillion Clique, -1 D. Stroke, -2 Damping Sphere
+2 Stony Silence, + 2 Rest in Peace, +1 Geist of Saint Traft
Lost pretty hard to KCI in rounds 2&3 partially due to draws and him having explosive hands.
Damping Sphere hurt me more than him in G3 and would've rather had any other card.
This list closes really well w/ 4 bolts late as well as still having early removal w/o drawback of path.
The standouts this week were by far Jace vs 8 Rack & U/R phoenix. I felt unstoppable as soon as I brainstormed twice w/
shuffle effects. VS phoenix he had to burn 3 spells to kill jace after +2'ing on him to bottom a phoenix, which made my
teferi into secure for 7 decimating.
I feel the deck does hurt in terms of stabilizing vs combo early and really needed an early closing option which is why I'm bringing
in Geist. The Stony's are mainly for KCI and other tron variants w/ RIP overlapping w/ dredge and phoenix who are bringing in surgicals from the board
for my paths apparently. Surgical felt very weak as well as damping sphere, but mostly because he drew all 4 nature's claims and I was not hitting land
drops but had plenty of interaction.
Not sure what else I could feasibly do to win the KCI matchup post board. Between Sai, Spine and the natural combo all being protected with countermagic it feels nearly unwinnable with the amount of flex the deck brings to the table.
I put in the jace main because I felt I was unable to close effectively and the 3rd teferi has felt amazing with instant speed spells that jeskai has to offer. The 1st teferi is usually what gets dealt with, but the 2nd or jace or azcanta usually takes it from there. Hieroglyphic also a stand out card as it was able to dig quickly when I needed an answer while also netting a card for full cast. I don't miss opt or serum in this version of jeskai as I usually don't know what I need until the last second. So being able to respond and adapt so quickly really helped in my games.
Yo guys, just wanted to post my results after going 3-0-1 yesterday at FNM. I'll post my deck list after this. It would've been a full undefeated without the bye and the draw due to time in round 2, but regardless I'm really happy with my results.
Round 1 - Bye
Round 2 - Amulet Titan 1-1-1
Game 1 - Worked through 4 pacts to ultimately deal with 4 titans, but he had no amulet in play the entirety of the game. I nearly stabilize by answering titans with spot removal and path, but he ultimately tutors for ballista w/ tolaria west after the 4th titan to close things out. Couldn't counter because he bounced his cavern with bounce land triggers from titan.
Game 2 - He has a game with amulet turn 2 and dorks turns 3,4,5 but no tutor affects. He goes all in on the dork beats plan with slayer's stronghold and I answer w/ spot removal. I slam jace when he has 1 card in hand and he concedes to the fate seal.
Game 3 - I'm on the draw with explosives, snap, path and some lands. He plays turn 1 amulet. I play explosives for 1 on turn 1. I draw into surgical on turn two and look to blow up on his turn and surgical after his draw step. He rips an amulet for the turn and nothing happens until I slam jace and fate seal an emrakul promised end to the bottom. Pacting and titan tutoring ensues as I brainstorm for 5 turns to find removal and answers and I ultimately answer 3 titans between bolt/helix, path and verdict back to back after destroying slayer's. I slam teferi and curve hand to deal with pacts to follow and more removal and we go to time. I would've had it with my grip and jace on 11 loyalty with teferi on 7, but he takes the draw.
Round 3 - Storm 2-1
Game 1 - I keep a slow one with some spot removal, logic knot and expensive spells like verdict, jace. I draw bolt for his 1st reducer, I path his 2nd reducer on 3 keeping knot up and counter his 1st ritual trying to go off. He rips a 3rd reducer and has enough mana to go off through after I counter his spell.
Game 2 - He keeps a greedy hand with few lands. I keep a hand with removal + clique. I kill reducers on 2 and clique on 3 - he had no 3rd land and I punish with card advantage + clique beats the following turn as he cantrips for lands. I hit my land drops with sculpting hand for a few turns until I slam jace turn 7 to finish it with a fate seal + backup dispels + removal. Close out with burn as he tries to put something together.
Game 3 - I keep another reactive hand with clique/cryptic. He hits his land drops but can't get anything started and I punish with clique. He tries to go off after I kill some mana dorks and 4 mana up and I cryptic bounce a snapcaster for added value. He fizzles after ritualing and MM'ing into nothing and I untap slam jace into fate seal. I curve out later w/ brainstorm into teferi and close out with clique and burn.
Game 4 - Grixis Control 2-0
Game 1 - I'm on the draw with cryptic, Knot, bolt and hieroglyphic plus lands. He inquisitions and takes Knot. Land go until turn 4 where I go for hieroglyphic. It resolves. I hit my land drops and he goes for jace, vryn's prodigy and the 3/1 bird that cycles. I kill both and continue to hit land drops. I bait out removal w/ snap caster on hieroglyphic and he goes for cryptic which resolves. I bash with colonnade to get him to 8. He does nothing and I have teferi, Knot and cryptic in hand and pass. He goes for a 4/4 dragon bolas and I start w/ Knot to bait the counter. He accepts and goes for his own logic knot which I punish w/ cryptic. He's got 1 card in hand I draw into cryptic on 8 mana and draw electrolyze after. I go for the teferi, it resolves and I draw into a 2nd colonade. His last card in hand was bolt/ dreadbore which kills teferi. Next turn I draw helix and bash with colonade #1 which he didn't answer. I untap into a dispel and pass to his upkeep and burn him out.
Game 2
I keep another solid hand with dispel, purge, cryptic and hieroglyphic. He disrupts and takes purge w/ inquisition and goes for jace, vp which I draw helix for. He uses stutter bird on my field to get a tar pit and I recover with lands and hierogyphic on 4. He goes for liliana which I counter with cryptic. He follows it up with 4 drop dragon bolas which I logic knot. I untap and slam teferi with cryptic and helix up. I draw into colonade for next turn and leave up field + 2 r/w lands. He goes for tar pit which I field. He double bolts teferi with no cards. I draw into dispel and bash with 1st colonade from earlier and play a 2nd leaving up cryptic + dispel. I close out with colonade with extra burn to spare.
A really good night for jeskai! everything felt smooth and closing out didn't seem too difficult except verses storm with a full grip. Jace really impressed me as well as hieroglyphic. Hieroglyphic helped smooth out draws enough to hit land drops and find answers. It also was huge in pulling ahead vs control. Jace with brainstorm found me many answers including teferi in some instances where I needed a little bit more to close. Overall, I'm not sure of any changes I'd make to my list as of just yet.
So, it'd branch off like legacy does between it's iterations of delver, stoneblade, etc.? That would make sense. Stoneforge does have a tempo oriented play-style to it.
Something else I've been pondering with the state of modern being as fast as it is (See hoogland article here: https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/12122018-jeffhoogland-examining-modern-standard-plus)is if any cards from the banned list would ever see play again. The most notable ones being stoneforge mystic and splinter twin. Would these cards even make any impact on current jeskai control list inclusions or would they be too slow, inefficient, etc.?
Also, generally speaking, how far from net decking do you guys take your lists? Do you change just 1 or 2 cards from a list you like or do you start from the ground up?
So, conclusion is that Jace does not appear to be a value oriented engine for card advantage rather than he is a necessary piece towards slving a specific problem. A lot of Jeskai players like Purcell http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/125952 used Jace as a 1 of but you'll notice their cantrips outside of Jace have shifted compared to the Teferi only lists https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1561166#paper . And in Jeskai it makes so much more sense to differentiate from U/W because your game plan is different. In so many of my games w/ Jeskai miracles I had far more board wipes than I ever wanted and games dragged on only for me to draw into more useless terminus. With Teferi-only it allows me to play a more dense threat deck while still maintaining wrath affects when needed.
TLDR: If you want to best utilize Jace it is best in U/W. If you want to best utilize Teferi/snap It's playing them with more instant-speed 1-4 mana spells. Also Jeskai is the better Azcanta deck imo. U/W cuts azcanta to 1 in favor of more cantrips now.
Played vs. grixis control/abzan and mono red goblins. Went 2-1 and lost to goblins after drawing too many lands vs a constant regenerating board. Putting in staticaster to help combat this. I do have a 1 of Jace is the board vs. certain match ups that will allow him to shine. I.E. amulet titan, control mirrors w/o combo, attrition-style decks w/ lilliana. All of these kinds of decks do brilliantly if I stabilize and slam jace, but my meta is all over the place right now so main boarding him is risky.
full casting it. The list you have here looks rather reactive and that's what I've always liked about electrolyze. Even
when it's not great it still progresses multiple gameplans between pressure, removal and drawing cards. I'm also adamant about
my decision to cut path for bolt just because most creatures aren't out of bolt range and 3 is plenty to deal w/ threats that need to
be exiled. I'm also really happy w/ mainboard negate. My meta is extremely diverse so having more permission spells w/o hamstrings helps
a lot and I find Knot+Negate dealing with everything my removal package can't while Jace/Electrolyze stabilize in an almost attrition/ style
of fashion between trading 1 for 1 or making their draws worse and increasing loyalty.
TLDR: I've been having more success having a proactive gameplan that can switch/pivot between control/tempo on a dime. I may even look to try
more geist in the board just because of how few options it leaves opponents.
Adjustments I made from my list including cutting collonade for a sulfur falls. Really need faster dual colored mana early
and the colonnade loss feels minimal when closing w/ the plethora of other options.
SB
-1 Surical, -1 Vendillion Clique, -1 D. Stroke, -2 Damping Sphere
+2 Stony Silence, + 2 Rest in Peace, +1 Geist of Saint Traft
Lost pretty hard to KCI in rounds 2&3 partially due to draws and him having explosive hands.
Damping Sphere hurt me more than him in G3 and would've rather had any other card.
This list closes really well w/ 4 bolts late as well as still having early removal w/o drawback of path.
The standouts this week were by far Jace vs 8 Rack & U/R phoenix. I felt unstoppable as soon as I brainstormed twice w/
shuffle effects. VS phoenix he had to burn 3 spells to kill jace after +2'ing on him to bottom a phoenix, which made my
teferi into secure for 7 decimating.
I feel the deck does hurt in terms of stabilizing vs combo early and really needed an early closing option which is why I'm bringing
in Geist. The Stony's are mainly for KCI and other tron variants w/ RIP overlapping w/ dredge and phoenix who are bringing in surgicals from the board
for my paths apparently. Surgical felt very weak as well as damping sphere, but mostly because he drew all 4 nature's claims and I was not hitting land
drops but had plenty of interaction.
Not sure what else I could feasibly do to win the KCI matchup post board. Between Sai, Spine and the natural combo all being protected with countermagic it feels nearly unwinnable with the amount of flex the deck brings to the table.
4 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria
Lands
3 Celestial Collonade
3 Field of Ruin
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Opt
3 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
1 Negate
2 Electrolyze
4 Cryptic Command
1 Secure the Wastes
Sorceries
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Negate
1 Abrade
2 Damping Sphere
2 Dispel
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancestral Visions
1 Engineered Explosives
Updated list this week
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Spells
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
3 Electrolyze
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
4 Cryptic Command
2 Supreme Verdict
Enchantments
2 Search For Azcanta
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Celestial Purge
1 Abrade
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
1 Anger of the Gods
I put in the jace main because I felt I was unable to close effectively and the 3rd teferi has felt amazing with instant speed spells that jeskai has to offer. The 1st teferi is usually what gets dealt with, but the 2nd or jace or azcanta usually takes it from there. Hieroglyphic also a stand out card as it was able to dig quickly when I needed an answer while also netting a card for full cast. I don't miss opt or serum in this version of jeskai as I usually don't know what I need until the last second. So being able to respond and adapt so quickly really helped in my games.
Round 1 - Bye
Round 2 - Amulet Titan 1-1-1
Game 1 - Worked through 4 pacts to ultimately deal with 4 titans, but he had no amulet in play the entirety of the game. I nearly stabilize by answering titans with spot removal and path, but he ultimately tutors for ballista w/ tolaria west after the 4th titan to close things out. Couldn't counter because he bounced his cavern with bounce land triggers from titan.
Game 2 - He has a game with amulet turn 2 and dorks turns 3,4,5 but no tutor affects. He goes all in on the dork beats plan with slayer's stronghold and I answer w/ spot removal. I slam jace when he has 1 card in hand and he concedes to the fate seal.
Game 3 - I'm on the draw with explosives, snap, path and some lands. He plays turn 1 amulet. I play explosives for 1 on turn 1. I draw into surgical on turn two and look to blow up on his turn and surgical after his draw step. He rips an amulet for the turn and nothing happens until I slam jace and fate seal an emrakul promised end to the bottom. Pacting and titan tutoring ensues as I brainstorm for 5 turns to find removal and answers and I ultimately answer 3 titans between bolt/helix, path and verdict back to back after destroying slayer's. I slam teferi and curve hand to deal with pacts to follow and more removal and we go to time. I would've had it with my grip and jace on 11 loyalty with teferi on 7, but he takes the draw.
Round 3 - Storm 2-1
Game 1 - I keep a slow one with some spot removal, logic knot and expensive spells like verdict, jace. I draw bolt for his 1st reducer, I path his 2nd reducer on 3 keeping knot up and counter his 1st ritual trying to go off. He rips a 3rd reducer and has enough mana to go off through after I counter his spell.
Game 2 - He keeps a greedy hand with few lands. I keep a hand with removal + clique. I kill reducers on 2 and clique on 3 - he had no 3rd land and I punish with card advantage + clique beats the following turn as he cantrips for lands. I hit my land drops with sculpting hand for a few turns until I slam jace turn 7 to finish it with a fate seal + backup dispels + removal. Close out with burn as he tries to put something together.
Game 3 - I keep another reactive hand with clique/cryptic. He hits his land drops but can't get anything started and I punish with clique. He tries to go off after I kill some mana dorks and 4 mana up and I cryptic bounce a snapcaster for added value. He fizzles after ritualing and MM'ing into nothing and I untap slam jace into fate seal. I curve out later w/ brainstorm into teferi and close out with clique and burn.
Game 4 - Grixis Control 2-0
Game 1 - I'm on the draw with cryptic, Knot, bolt and hieroglyphic plus lands. He inquisitions and takes Knot. Land go until turn 4 where I go for hieroglyphic. It resolves. I hit my land drops and he goes for jace, vryn's prodigy and the 3/1 bird that cycles. I kill both and continue to hit land drops. I bait out removal w/ snap caster on hieroglyphic and he goes for cryptic which resolves. I bash with colonnade to get him to 8. He does nothing and I have teferi, Knot and cryptic in hand and pass. He goes for a 4/4 dragon bolas and I start w/ Knot to bait the counter. He accepts and goes for his own logic knot which I punish w/ cryptic. He's got 1 card in hand I draw into cryptic on 8 mana and draw electrolyze after. I go for the teferi, it resolves and I draw into a 2nd colonade. His last card in hand was bolt/ dreadbore which kills teferi. Next turn I draw helix and bash with colonade #1 which he didn't answer. I untap into a dispel and pass to his upkeep and burn him out.
Game 2
I keep another solid hand with dispel, purge, cryptic and hieroglyphic. He disrupts and takes purge w/ inquisition and goes for jace, vp which I draw helix for. He uses stutter bird on my field to get a tar pit and I recover with lands and hierogyphic on 4. He goes for liliana which I counter with cryptic. He follows it up with 4 drop dragon bolas which I logic knot. I untap and slam teferi with cryptic and helix up. I draw into colonade for next turn and leave up field + 2 r/w lands. He goes for tar pit which I field. He double bolts teferi with no cards. I draw into dispel and bash with 1st colonade from earlier and play a 2nd leaving up cryptic + dispel. I close out with colonade with extra burn to spare.
A really good night for jeskai! everything felt smooth and closing out didn't seem too difficult except verses storm with a full grip. Jace really impressed me as well as hieroglyphic. Hieroglyphic helped smooth out draws enough to hit land drops and find answers. It also was huge in pulling ahead vs control. Jace with brainstorm found me many answers including teferi in some instances where I needed a little bit more to close. Overall, I'm not sure of any changes I'd make to my list as of just yet.