I’m not the greatest at interpreting wording on cards, but wasn’t it previously established that the wording on Thornbite Staff combos off with Adarkar Valkyrie because both things occur “at the same time”.
Both the delayed trigger set by the Valkyrie and the ability granted to the Valkyrie granted by the Staff *trigger* at the same time, and you put them on the stack in the order you want. They don't *resolve* at the same time, but anyway, you'd have tapped Valkyrie some time earlier, so there's no issue here. The creature returns and the Valkyrie untaps, in an order of your choice. With a free sacrifice outlet, you can rinse and repeat.
However the more of these resolutions I read the more I’m starting to side with the 6 damage interpretation of Athreos...
Athreos, God of Passage + Teysa poses no rules issue, there is no need for interpretation, the result is crystal clear. You get two separate Athreos triggers for each creature you own that dies. You can target the same opponent twice, or two different opponents in multiplayer. If they want the creature card to stay in the graveyard, they have to pay 3 life for both triggers. If they'd rather let it go back to your hand, they can just let the first trigger to resolve do it and ignore the other. Similar to the Valkyrie situation above, if you discard the creature card inbetween the two triggers, you don't get the chance to return it with the second trigger to resolve, because it's a new object, your opponent can ignore the trigger and it still stays there.
Yes, The way rezzahan put it, I can follow. It is indeed crystal clear.
All the mentioned triggers do go off twice. They are put on the stack at the same time as their doubles. That is where your misunderstanding lies, triggers do not wait for other triggers to resolve before going on the stack, nor do they take into account what they themselves or other triggers will do, they go there at the first opportunity. The key to understanding these scenarios is understanding what the triggers do when they resolve.
Oh dear. It seems I’ve opened another Athreos can of worms...
I’m not the greatest at interpreting wording on cards, but wasn’t it previously established that the wording on Thornbite Staff combos off with Adarkar Valkyrie because both things occur “at the same time”.
I do understand what your saying about the creature not being there for the second instance. It was my logic for arguing that Athreos can’t trigger twice because of the wording the creature should be back in your hand for the second instance. However there seems to be a growing number of people that have stong arguments for the case of a double trigger and a six life pentalty from Athreos.
I think I followed the logic here and I understand why it does not work with the Valkyrie. Tap to target ONE specific creature that is waiting for death. When it dies. Then the second instance comes, creature is gone. This is similar to why Arena Rector and the word Exile does not work.
However the more of these resolutions I read the more I’m starting to side with the 6 damage interpretation of Athreos...
I really do like Teysa at face value. It’s quite a learning curve to figure out all these interactions with wording on different cards. I hope I can get all the mecanisms straight soon. I’d really like to build a deck around this commander.
What about adarkar valkyrie, I’m curious about this. If two creatures die, let’s say via a sac outlet. Teysa Karlov is in play, and I tap the Adrkar Valkyrie at the same time they die... I understand this is an activated ability from the Valkyrie, but the wording does use the word “Whenever”. I’m wondering it retuns both creatures from the graveyard?
Hey dude. I have been running an angel tribal Avacyn, Angel of Hope deck for over a year now that I poured a very large chunk of my soul and way too much money into.
It's still too slow to keep up to most Commanders in my playgroups meta as well. Krufix, Rashmi, Hapatra, Atraxa, etc etc... These are really fast decks even in our casual meta.
I also noticed Shalai as an excellent choice for Angel tribal. The Hexproof and pump from the commander are very interesting tools for angel tribal. Yes I agree with some of the comments on here. I was infatuated with Angels when I was a young kid when this game was in its infancy. Back in the day angel tribal used to be too cool for school cause you could do things like 4 Serra angels, and 4 Pristine angels give the pristines vigilance, and lifelink, and the serra's lifelink. And seem like an unstopable life gaining monster. Back in my day, (HA!), In the "quads" standard days, shennanigans like this gave Angels a following and devotion that is kinda similar to my devotion to the Montreal Canadiens... It's a devotion that is based on the glory of yester-year. The reality of Angel tribal in the commander singleton format is that its a very lack-luster tribe due to its overwhelming lack of synergy.
There is some tips I can give you on this topic. There is no magic stick solution that I can think of to make angels synergize really well. Here are a few that are on my radar.
A few in the tribe that can interact with Shalai: Aegis Angel, in this case is an angel that can give Shalai some protection: Indestructible. Also, Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Avacyn can be fetched by above mentioned Captain Sisay. Now I get it, it's not hexproof/shroud. But when you dig through target removal lists, you do eliminate a decent chunk of staples that use the word "destroy". And these are tools in the tribe. You don't have to waste extra card slots to get this protection.
The Bruna, Gisela, Brisela trick is also 100% on Sissay's radar.
Green has creature fetching and finding power so there is some notable synergy/interaction between Angelic Skirmisher / Angelic Field Marshal & Pristine Angel. Again it's worth mentioning not just for green's creature tutor capability, also because of the sensei's divning top-ish scan the top of your library and get creatures mechanism green does often.
Also, Lyra and Herald of War were mentioned but there is also the little fellah people always forget. Radiant, Archangel. The whole damn tribe is flying. This little guy usually comes in with pretty impressive stats, and is also a Sissay target in this color scheme. To be honnest A lot of the highest ranking angels in the tribe are Sissay targets. I'm actually seriously considering de-commissioning my Avacyn deck and re-tooling it as a Shalai Angel deck with a Legendary Sub-theme so as to be able to run Sissay an Alternate commander from time to time for a laugh. Also don't forget guys, lifelink is a pretty common theme in the Angel Tribe and White so Archangel of Thune.
I agree 1000% With this entire thread. Angels as a tribe are getting a bad reputaion in commander because there are super slow due to their mostly White/Red/Boros roots. Not much quality draw and ramp in that scheme. Colorless crutches that those colors rely on in that department cannot substitute the raw power of things like Consecrated Sphinx, Rhystic Study, Skyshroud Claim, Cultivate, etc etc.
The one thing that Angels in commander really really desperately need in is MANA. The Selesnya route for green's ramp is forward thinking on your part and at the moment receives my two thumbs up as a long time MTG Angel fanatic.
Also, let's get real here. Your running green. RAAAAMMMMMMMMMMPPPPP If it goes off the way you want, your Wayfarer ain't fetching crap. I would say things like Crop Rotation or green's scan to find stuff like Vivien Reid is the most efficient way to fetch or help find Maze of Ith or ... Cavern of Souls You can always get a land back from the crop rotation via Sun Titan, Ramunap Excavator, Crucible of Worlds etc...
Adarkar Valkyrie and Thornbite Staff is a 2 card re-animation engine.
Which re-animates ANY creature. Yes any 187, can go infinite through ANY (no cost) sac outlet.
Not just power 2 or less a la Karmic Guide and Revielleark.
How Karmic Guide and Reviellark continue to be the more popular and broadly known and exploited white 2 card re-animation engine continues to blow my mind.
Thanks for the reply. I did not even realize “group hug” existed let alone that it was a used strategy. This certainly seems viable imo. Thanks for the tip.
What makes this even harder is that she is Esper. White and Black are both known for getting the absolute most value out of permanents. Recursion, Reanimate, Regenerate, etc... It’s quite counter-intuitive.
A buddy of mine back in our high school days brewed up a “chaos” deck. I do believe a well thought and well chosen pool of chaos cards might be the way to play this walker.
Another direction I thought of ... teedering on insanity perhaps, is “Wall” tribal, and accompanied by a plethora of cards that accelerate everyone’s game, ... good ole Howling Mine ... for example.
... hide behind walls, keep +1-ing, then profit of someone else’s board...
???
Another poster definitely has it right. This one really requires out of the box forward thinking.
I wasn’t totally certain, but it seemed to me like to fully realize this commander’s potential you can’t really use a “strategy”, I think the best play here is to attack strategy itself. The more chaotic you can make the game te better.
Classic stuff like tombstone stairwell and previously mentioned Teferi’s Puzzle Box
Yes, The way rezzahan put it, I can follow. It is indeed crystal clear.
Thanks, I think I finally got it clear.
I’m not the greatest at interpreting wording on cards, but wasn’t it previously established that the wording on Thornbite Staff combos off with Adarkar Valkyrie because both things occur “at the same time”.
I do understand what your saying about the creature not being there for the second instance. It was my logic for arguing that Athreos can’t trigger twice because of the wording the creature should be back in your hand for the second instance. However there seems to be a growing number of people that have stong arguments for the case of a double trigger and a six life pentalty from Athreos.
I think I followed the logic here and I understand why it does not work with the Valkyrie. Tap to target ONE specific creature that is waiting for death. When it dies. Then the second instance comes, creature is gone. This is similar to why Arena Rector and the word Exile does not work.
However the more of these resolutions I read the more I’m starting to side with the 6 damage interpretation of Athreos...
I really do like Teysa at face value. It’s quite a learning curve to figure out all these interactions with wording on different cards. I hope I can get all the mecanisms straight soon. I’d really like to build a deck around this commander.
agreed. Also that new Beast Whisperer card
https://deckstats.net/decks/104290/1018584-avacyn-queen-of-winter-angel-t
It's still too slow to keep up to most Commanders in my playgroups meta as well. Krufix, Rashmi, Hapatra, Atraxa, etc etc... These are really fast decks even in our casual meta.
I also noticed Shalai as an excellent choice for Angel tribal. The Hexproof and pump from the commander are very interesting tools for angel tribal. Yes I agree with some of the comments on here. I was infatuated with Angels when I was a young kid when this game was in its infancy. Back in the day angel tribal used to be too cool for school cause you could do things like 4 Serra angels, and 4 Pristine angels give the pristines vigilance, and lifelink, and the serra's lifelink. And seem like an unstopable life gaining monster. Back in my day, (HA!), In the "quads" standard days, shennanigans like this gave Angels a following and devotion that is kinda similar to my devotion to the Montreal Canadiens... It's a devotion that is based on the glory of yester-year. The reality of Angel tribal in the commander singleton format is that its a very lack-luster tribe due to its overwhelming lack of synergy.
There is some tips I can give you on this topic. There is no magic stick solution that I can think of to make angels synergize really well. Here are a few that are on my radar.
A few in the tribe that can interact with Shalai: Aegis Angel, in this case is an angel that can give Shalai some protection: Indestructible. Also, Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Avacyn can be fetched by above mentioned Captain Sisay. Now I get it, it's not hexproof/shroud. But when you dig through target removal lists, you do eliminate a decent chunk of staples that use the word "destroy". And these are tools in the tribe. You don't have to waste extra card slots to get this protection.
The Bruna, Gisela, Brisela trick is also 100% on Sissay's radar.
Green has creature fetching and finding power so there is some notable synergy/interaction between Angelic Skirmisher / Angelic Field Marshal & Pristine Angel. Again it's worth mentioning not just for green's creature tutor capability, also because of the sensei's divning top-ish scan the top of your library and get creatures mechanism green does often.
Also, Lyra and Herald of War were mentioned but there is also the little fellah people always forget. Radiant, Archangel. The whole damn tribe is flying. This little guy usually comes in with pretty impressive stats, and is also a Sissay target in this color scheme. To be honnest A lot of the highest ranking angels in the tribe are Sissay targets. I'm actually seriously considering de-commissioning my Avacyn deck and re-tooling it as a Shalai Angel deck with a Legendary Sub-theme so as to be able to run Sissay an Alternate commander from time to time for a laugh. Also don't forget guys, lifelink is a pretty common theme in the Angel Tribe and White so Archangel of Thune.
I agree 1000% With this entire thread. Angels as a tribe are getting a bad reputaion in commander because there are super slow due to their mostly White/Red/Boros roots. Not much quality draw and ramp in that scheme. Colorless crutches that those colors rely on in that department cannot substitute the raw power of things like Consecrated Sphinx, Rhystic Study, Skyshroud Claim, Cultivate, etc etc.
The one thing that Angels in commander really really desperately need in is MANA. The Selesnya route for green's ramp is forward thinking on your part and at the moment receives my two thumbs up as a long time MTG Angel fanatic.
Also, let's get real here. Your running green. RAAAAMMMMMMMMMMPPPPP If it goes off the way you want, your Wayfarer ain't fetching crap.
Which re-animates ANY creature. Yes any 187, can go infinite through ANY (no cost) sac outlet.
Not just power 2 or less a la Karmic Guide and Revielleark.
How Karmic Guide and Reviellark continue to be the more popular and broadly known and exploited white 2 card re-animation engine continues to blow my mind.
A buddy of mine back in our high school days brewed up a “chaos” deck. I do believe a well thought and well chosen pool of chaos cards might be the way to play this walker.
Another direction I thought of ... teedering on insanity perhaps, is “Wall” tribal, and accompanied by a plethora of cards that accelerate everyone’s game, ... good ole Howling Mine ... for example.
... hide behind walls, keep +1-ing, then profit of someone else’s board...
???
Another poster definitely has it right. This one really requires out of the box forward thinking.
I wasn’t totally certain, but it seemed to me like to fully realize this commander’s potential you can’t really use a “strategy”, I think the best play here is to attack strategy itself. The more chaotic you can make the game te better.
Classic stuff like tombstone stairwell and previously mentioned Teferi’s Puzzle Box
The other thought that had occured to me was to choose a pool of chaotic cards like Teferi’s Puzzle box and brew from there...
I’m finding difficulty in seeing the benefit of any type of board state you’ve built being passed away...???
Supernatural Stamina Lots of potential... Archaeomancer, and another one for Isochron Scepter + Paradox Engine.