Is this reasoning from theory or testing? Try taking your list through the gauntlet, and see what happens. IMO, forcing a Goyf/Goyf stalemate is fine against decks that are in a rush. Also, I think your relative lack of 2 drops is going to stifle your development and board presence. I'm sorry I can't be more specific on how to change your deck, but at the very least, cut 1 Inquisition of Kozilek for the 4th Hymn to Tourach
Thanks for your feedback.
Tarmogoyf is certainly phenomenal, and at a bare minimum should probably be bumped to a 1-of in my list as a Zenith target. My position has adapted (through testing) to either running a 3:1 Ooze//Goyf split or a 1:3 Ooze/Goyf split, and I have found a lot of merit to running either package. Running both at high numbers (3-4) tends to clog my hand with two drops, particularly considering my larger emphasis on the use of Pernicious Deed.
Against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, and random-homebrew, I tend to enjoy drawing Goyf at any stage in the game. Against Maverick, and Tempo-stuff I prefer Scavagening Ooze. So I suppose part of my choice will have to boil down to metagame in my area, and personal preference.
In addition, Kitchen Finks is great, particularly considering how often I play against Lightning Bolt.dec
~~~
As for your sideboard, it seems pretty reasonable. I personally prefer Choke as a 3-of as opposed to 4. Also how do you feel about -1 Gaddock Teeg +1 Path to Exile?
I must confess I did not consult your list specifically, but I think using Teeg as a silver bullet with Zenith would be fine.
(For reference, that is pure theory.)
I think without W you lose the best spot-removal spell in the game (targeting creatures, of course). Also, dropping the bigger beater in GWB rock, the Knight of the Reliquary, doesn't seem any good. But, if you still want to try GB (I think it deserves trying, at least), why also drop goyfs? I understand your point with Ooze, but Goyfs and KotR are the brute force in this deck, wich is threat-light "perse".
I think you will miss your big guys.
I rarely run Plow in my lists, since I never want to overload on creature removal in such a diverse format. Knight is a tough loss, but Terravore is a reasonable substitute. Goyf got dropped because of the sheer number of tempoesh decks playing it themselves. Ooze lets me beat up on Tarmgoyf pretty successfully, and playing Goyf on Goyf is rarely successful when they have a faster clock 9/10 times.
I have been testing against the field, and notice besides Knight of the Reliquary, the white splash really offers few cards to improve my MU's. Since I do not run a Stoneforg Mystic package, maybe I should stick to GB iterations of the deck? If Reliquary is really that essential, I could just run Terravore for similar affects.
Arguments for a GB reiteration of the deck:
Less reliance on equipment and reliquary means Pernicious Deed might be more viable as a 3-4of.
Stronger mana base against Wasteland and Price of Progress.
Plenty of really solid GB cards to deck, such as !Maelstrom Pulse over [/card]Vindicate[/card].
Arguments against:
Weaker SB options
No access to KotR
No access to Vindicate
My current list looks something like this (repost):
Since my playgroup exists in a limited testing environment, it is possible I am undestimating the value of the White splash...
Edit:Tarmogoyf was removed as a Zenith target, because my common course of action is to Zenith for an Ooze and shrink Goyfs. Of course Tarmogoyf is great against aggro...
When did Deed start hitting planewalkers? Im sure his garruk will be fine...
Im more concerned about the random 1 and 2 ofs w/o GSZ, it makes your deck less consistent.
The problem I find with going only two colors is that your threat density ends up being so low that the fact none of your creatures have evasion becomes far too apparent.
You could just as easily turn some of your discard into Cabal Therapy and run Abyssal Persecutor
The only random 1-of is Thrun. The idea was to test Garruk in place of GSZ to increase the threat density throughout the deck. Playing two colors rather than three also reduces the decks vulnerability to Wasteland. Abyssal Persecutor also strikes me more as a Gate card than a Rock card, but maybe I should be more open minded. The only thing I really miss from the white splash is Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate.
That said, after testing I think 2x Garruk is 1 too many, so I will probably do a 1:1 split with Green Sun Zenith and give that a try. I encourage everyone to try testing Relentless, he destroys a lot of problematic creatures and keeps a steady stream of bodies for Jitte and trades.
I really liked the GB Rock list posted at SCG Memphis for a variety of reasons. Sticking to a two-color build has improved the resiliency to Wasteland in my testing substantially. I also was never a huge fan of the StoneForge Mystic plan.
This is a pretty wacky list, that I am sure needs a bit of tuning. I would like to explain some card selection choices: Garruk: I am still testing this guy, but I kind of like him over Green Sun's Zenith. He blows up Bob, and he creates bodies. Arena: Stronger than Life from the Loam.
Tarmogoyf is always great, but I found other creatures to be more useful. Having a big body was not proving to be as relevant as gaining life.
Edit: Would pulling 1 Garruk to the SB and putting the Thrun MD make more sense?
You know what card sprouting thrinax hates? (and most of the cards in jund save for broodmate, sarkhan, garruk, and siege gang): kozileks inquisition
Was this a rhetorical question? Assuming that it is not, yes I did realize Inquisition can discard a Sprouting Thrinax. Typical Jund Targets:
Sprouting Thrinax
Maelstrum Pulse
Putrid Leech
Rampant Growth
Blightning
Lightning Bolt
Terminate Typical Jund Misses:
Bloodbraid Elf
Bituminous Blast
Broodmate Dragon
Siege-Gang Commander
Garruk Wildspeaker
Give or take some oddballs includes in select lists that is a pretty comprehensive list from my experience playing against Jund. Unfortunately of my potential targets I would really only be interested in taking Thrinax, Blightning, or Rampant Growth. The removal is generally a non-issue with my particular list and killing all the creatures but Thrinax is generally unneccessary. Taking Blightning is almost always beneficial, and the Rampant Growth is really dependant on what else is in their hand. The real issue I see with Inquisition is, I essentially miss all the Cascade spells, and the vast majority of Jund's card avantage engine.
My rough draft that I have been testing against Jund. Broodmate Dragon in conjunction with Sprouting Thrinax are a problem for all the sacrifice effects. So far I have been able to consistently cast Gatekeepr by turn 4, but turn 3 is somewhat sketchy.
Tomorrow I will test results... 10 games of Jund each version: 10 with 4 treasure hunt/ 3 jace vs 10 games w 4 Armillary Sphere/3 Seer's Sundial ... I will only post which combination netted me more cards.
I think we all could learn something instead of blindly worshiping
idiot speak.
I fail to see how endorsing Jace and Treasure Hunt qualifies as idiot speak. Acknowledging the interaction between the two cards is holely acceptable, and furthermore both cards function reasonably well on their own. The fateseal ability of Jace is either misunderstood or underrated. Sealing away the top card of your opponents library by no means guarantees they will draw garbage, just as fatesealing yourself fails to guarantee you will draw relevant spells. That aside doing either affects the percentages for either scenario and builds up the loyalty on Jace to boot. His primary function will still be Brainstorm + shuffle effects and hitting strong creatures with Unsummon whenever needed. He certainly is not the end all to this archetype or to control in general, but he functions far better than Armillary Sphere does on its own. As for Treasure Hunt it draws 1.75 cards for 2 mana, and does ridiculous things with Halimar Depths or Jace. All this has been previously stated and discussed, and after testing the two I would give the pair a solid thumbs up. (Although I have played plenty Treasure Hunts that leave me yearning for a Divination.)
Drahcir, I tried playing with your Artifact version, and I feel like it hurts way too much to have the artifacts fighting for your draw with Loam, on top of you needing to find a ruins for it. Which was disappointing, because I liked being able to pick up sideboard artifacts that got hit by loam. I also felt much more limited in being able to handle creatures. My 2 cents for ya.
Edit: Also, for these decks in general, wouldn't having one mutavault instead of a fourth factory be always better? You can pick up the buffs from enemy lords, it's still pumpable by other factories, it avoids pithing needle, and it's not an artifact when activated. is there something I'm missing to stop it from being the fourth factory?
A singleton Mutavault is always inferior to having a single Factory in play unless your opponent has a Lord in play. Typically I think sticking with a playset of factories is the way to go.
Has anyone tested the Tabernacle // Chasm split? I think 1 and 1 is the way to go as suggested on the front page.
Also, on a side-note, here is an interesting side-boarding strategy I have been testing out against Merfolk when on the Play.
-4 Force of Will
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Firespout
My Logic behind this is that with the exception of Turn 1 Vial there are literally zero cards in Merfolk that require a FOW and the Merfolk match-up is very tempo oriented so the 2 for 1ing of FOW is actually relevant, also you are bringing in so many non blue cards while taking out blue cards that you greatly weaken FOW's blue count.
On the Draw it's:
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
-2 Daze
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 REB
+3 Firespout
I think I'll have to test that SB strategy as it really does board in so many cards that hose Merfolk. I'm still not sure how I feel about boarding out FoW, particularly if the Merfolk players knows my sideboarding strategy. I would at least like the option of bluffing Force, but REB is probably just as scary as Force. Maybe 4 Elemental Blast and 3 Bolt?
If one is going to evalute a card they should evaluate the archetypes it plays in. Currently I do not foresee any archetype I would be that enamored with the scopes performance. In the decks that have creatures early enough to really "ramp" with it, I really cannot use that much mana. The decks that really benefit from it tend to be on the slower side of things, and those decks honestly would be better served by Rampant Growth or Fertile Ground variants. Ultimately, the only critter I see reliably carrying this in the early turns would be Putrid Leech since you see him in most decks running G/B period. You could also try including it in Vampires, they have a pretty aggressive curve that tops out high.
I would probably stick to Baneslayer Angel over Exalted Angel; while Baneslayer is more streamlined I still live the dream of turn 2 angel beats. Having the chance to randomly blow my opponent out, and consistently come out swinging earlyer than Baneslayer Angel is pretty relevant.
Thanks for your feedback.
Tarmogoyf is certainly phenomenal, and at a bare minimum should probably be bumped to a 1-of in my list as a Zenith target. My position has adapted (through testing) to either running a 3:1 Ooze//Goyf split or a 1:3 Ooze/Goyf split, and I have found a lot of merit to running either package. Running both at high numbers (3-4) tends to clog my hand with two drops, particularly considering my larger emphasis on the use of Pernicious Deed.
Against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, and random-homebrew, I tend to enjoy drawing Goyf at any stage in the game. Against Maverick, and Tempo-stuff I prefer Scavagening Ooze. So I suppose part of my choice will have to boil down to metagame in my area, and personal preference.
In addition, Kitchen Finks is great, particularly considering how often I play against Lightning Bolt.dec
~~~
As for your sideboard, it seems pretty reasonable. I personally prefer Choke as a 3-of as opposed to 4. Also how do you feel about -1 Gaddock Teeg +1 Path to Exile?
I must confess I did not consult your list specifically, but I think using Teeg as a silver bullet with Zenith would be fine.
(For reference, that is pure theory.)
I rarely run Plow in my lists, since I never want to overload on creature removal in such a diverse format. Knight is a tough loss, but Terravore is a reasonable substitute. Goyf got dropped because of the sheer number of tempoesh decks playing it themselves. Ooze lets me beat up on Tarmgoyf pretty successfully, and playing Goyf on Goyf is rarely successful when they have a faster clock 9/10 times.
I have been testing against the field, and notice besides Knight of the Reliquary, the white splash really offers few cards to improve my MU's. Since I do not run a Stoneforg Mystic package, maybe I should stick to GB iterations of the deck? If Reliquary is really that essential, I could just run Terravore for similar affects.
Arguments for a GB reiteration of the deck:
Less reliance on equipment and reliquary means Pernicious Deed might be more viable as a 3-4of.
Stronger mana base against Wasteland and Price of Progress.
Plenty of really solid GB cards to deck, such as !Maelstrom Pulse over [/card]Vindicate[/card].
Arguments against:
Weaker SB options
No access to KotR
No access to Vindicate
My current list looks something like this (repost):
4 Bayou
2 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures: (13)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke
2 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Scattershot Archer
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Loaming Shaman
Since my playgroup exists in a limited testing environment, it is possible I am undestimating the value of the White splash...
Edit: Tarmogoyf was removed as a Zenith target, because my common course of action is to Zenith for an Ooze and shrink Goyfs. Of course Tarmogoyf is great against aggro...
The only random 1-of is Thrun. The idea was to test Garruk in place of GSZ to increase the threat density throughout the deck. Playing two colors rather than three also reduces the decks vulnerability to Wasteland. Abyssal Persecutor also strikes me more as a Gate card than a Rock card, but maybe I should be more open minded. The only thing I really miss from the white splash is Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate.
That said, after testing I think 2x Garruk is 1 too many, so I will probably do a 1:1 split with Green Sun Zenith and give that a try. I encourage everyone to try testing Relentless, he destroys a lot of problematic creatures and keeps a steady stream of bodies for Jitte and trades.
I really liked the GB Rock list posted at SCG Memphis for a variety of reasons. Sticking to a two-color build has improved the resiliency to Wasteland in my testing substantially. I also was never a huge fan of the StoneForge Mystic plan.
You can find that list here for reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44248
I am currently testing:
4 Bayou
2 Treetop Village
3 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures: (13)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Phyrexian Arena
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke
2 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip
2 Massacre
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Garruk: I am still testing this guy, but I kind of like him over Green Sun's Zenith. He blows up Bob, and he creates bodies.
Arena: Stronger than Life from the Loam.
Tarmogoyf is always great, but I found other creatures to be more useful. Having a big body was not proving to be as relevant as gaining life.
Edit: Would pulling 1 Garruk to the SB and putting the Thrun MD make more sense?
Was this a rhetorical question? Assuming that it is not, yes I did realize Inquisition can discard a Sprouting Thrinax.
Typical Jund Targets:
Sprouting Thrinax
Maelstrum Pulse
Putrid Leech
Rampant Growth
Blightning
Lightning Bolt
Terminate
Typical Jund Misses:
Bloodbraid Elf
Bituminous Blast
Broodmate Dragon
Siege-Gang Commander
Garruk Wildspeaker
Give or take some oddballs includes in select lists that is a pretty comprehensive list from my experience playing against Jund. Unfortunately of my potential targets I would really only be interested in taking Thrinax, Blightning, or Rampant Growth. The removal is generally a non-issue with my particular list and killing all the creatures but Thrinax is generally unneccessary. Taking Blightning is almost always beneficial, and the Rampant Growth is really dependant on what else is in their hand. The real issue I see with Inquisition is, I essentially miss all the Cascade spells, and the vast majority of Jund's card avantage engine.
4 Savage Lands
10 Swamp
6 Forest
4 Putrid Leech
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Borderland Ranger
2 Thornling
4 Consuming Vapors
3 Momentous Fall
3 Sign in Blood
1 Grim Discovery
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Sorin Markov
4 Deathmark
3 Great Sable Stag
2 Consume the Meek
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
My rough draft that I have been testing against Jund. Broodmate Dragon in conjunction with Sprouting Thrinax are a problem for all the sacrifice effects. So far I have been able to consistently cast Gatekeepr by turn 4, but turn 3 is somewhat sketchy.
I fail to see how endorsing Jace and Treasure Hunt qualifies as idiot speak. Acknowledging the interaction between the two cards is holely acceptable, and furthermore both cards function reasonably well on their own. The fateseal ability of Jace is either misunderstood or underrated. Sealing away the top card of your opponents library by no means guarantees they will draw garbage, just as fatesealing yourself fails to guarantee you will draw relevant spells. That aside doing either affects the percentages for either scenario and builds up the loyalty on Jace to boot. His primary function will still be Brainstorm + shuffle effects and hitting strong creatures with Unsummon whenever needed. He certainly is not the end all to this archetype or to control in general, but he functions far better than Armillary Sphere does on its own. As for Treasure Hunt it draws 1.75 cards for 2 mana, and does ridiculous things with Halimar Depths or Jace. All this has been previously stated and discussed, and after testing the two I would give the pair a solid thumbs up. (Although I have played plenty Treasure Hunts that leave me yearning for a Divination.)
Absolutely imperative to the archetype. A huge element to the Goblin gameplay is resource denial Via Wasteland and Port.
A singleton Mutavault is always inferior to having a single Factory in play unless your opponent has a Lord in play. Typically I think sticking with a playset of factories is the way to go.
Has anyone tested the Tabernacle // Chasm split? I think 1 and 1 is the way to go as suggested on the front page.
I think I'll have to test that SB strategy as it really does board in so many cards that hose Merfolk. I'm still not sure how I feel about boarding out FoW, particularly if the Merfolk players knows my sideboarding strategy. I would at least like the option of bluffing Force, but REB is probably just as scary as Force. Maybe 4 Elemental Blast and 3 Bolt?