MTG Salvation

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Quote from LiquidOcelot

I'm amazed at all the crying I've read from people in just the first three pages so far. We're leaving one of the best standard seasons for mana fixing and heading into a season where mono-color decks might actually matter now. I personally like it now where I can play a mono-color deck and actually stand a chance at winning.

It's nothing against you personally, but this line of thinking drives me crazy. I really don't understand is how every time we have a multicolor block, there's tons of "ERMAHGERD PEOPLE ARE PLAYING MULTICOLOR DECKS THIS IS A BAD THING" arguments from both players and even Wizards themselves. Isn't the point of giving us a multicolor block to...encourage people to play more than one color? I just don't understand why being able to play a 3 color deck is a sign that something is wrong and needs to be fixed.

I don't have anything against mono-colored decks, but like...if you're going to shove a multicolor block down our throats, don't flake out and suddenly decide that multicolor is bad one block later and that everyone should be playing monocolor again so we're going to make it more difficult for you to successfully play multicolor. At least support it until it's out of standard.

Rare?! Wow, I'm really sad now.

Quote from Goblin Cabdriver

wow, gift of immortality.... straight into brion stoutarm you go!

Yeeees, this makes me so happy!

Also, an archer that doesn't involve killing flying creatures?! Too bad I don't get to play straight-up casual anymore. That guy would be incredible in my mono-g mana symbol deck that plays Garruk's Companion, Leatherback Baloth, Primalcrux and Khalni Hydra.

Quote from Tivoko

It's nice art but I have to question why they chose to reprint Vindicate as a judge foil for a second time. It'd be nice to see it in another promo form.

I'd almost guarantee that Vindicate with Sorin art was supposed to be in Sorin's deck from the Sorin vs Tibalt DD but Wizards decided it was too powerful (or more likely) too expensive to give out in that deck so they cut it at the last minute and used it for a Judge promo instead.

Surprised that Genesis wasn't a judge promo long ago.

Oh wow! 4x weakness to Naturalize.

Neat card, though, and so silly. Looks like something I want to run in an EDH deck.

Quote from Noon3r

With Kazandu Refuge in the set, is that a preview of Theros duals to come?

Doubt it. They just needed to include a couple of cheap dual lands. Boros doesn't have access to Refuge lands since they're only in allied colors, so the Hero deck got guildgates instead.

Quote from DarthParallax

I give your review a 7/10. Some of your points just don't make sense to me, but seeing all of them next to each other caused me to lose a little bit of the benefit of the doubts I was giving WOTC when I looked at each question in isolation. The missing Tribal Lords, on top of the Wraths and Duals, hurts a lot. Basically, I see why and how it came about: Quite a lot is riding on this set's Slivers. And...well....the Slivers Flopped. Imagine a strange alternate world where you Loved these Slivers- we would just think of them as the New Tribe we really want to play, and that's 'why no normal lords?' These are one of the risks of being a business like WOTC that has to take risks to keep making new things: You have to pick Themes to play up, and sometimes people Hate Your Theme. Sad business. At least RTR is a very VERY strong block which will remain in Standard while INN rotates, and has a lot of things this Core Set lacks. RTR + Theros should hopefully be a good format. Does the New Chandra not interest you in the slightest?

Which of my points don't make sense, exactly? On a few points you disagreed with:

-"Knockoff Slivers". I call them knockoffs because of the article that talked about how they originally weren't even slivers until people in development kept pointing out how they function exactly like slivers and asked why they're not just called Slivers in the first place. So they actually did start off as "knockoff" Slivers.

-On bad rare reprints. I'm ok if Wizards wants to reprint stuff like Nightmare and Shivan dragon. That's ok. I'm a dragon collector, and Nightmare was one of my first rares at a trump card in my deck. But they really should consider giving them the Serra Angel/Sengir Vampire treatment and downgrade them to uncommon if they have to reprint them. Especially in a set this bland that desperately could have used those rare slots for better new/reprint rares.

-Planeswalker Reprints. I'd rather have seen Ajani Goldmane, Jace Beleren and Liliana Vess over Caller of the Pride, Memory Adept and Dark Realms. I think Baby Jace is perfectly fair, especially in this environment where your opponent can open with Burning Tree, Burning Tree, Burning Tree, Flinthoof. Ajani Goldmane doesn't do too much on his own either, but he could revive the Token strategy until Innistrad rotates. At least he'd have a better chance of seeing play than Caller. I personally just hate Dark Realms (artwork and restrictive abilities and lame Ultimate), so I'd rather see Vess. The only good thing is that another printing of Dark Realms will push her price low enough for me to finally buy one since she's the only Planeswalker I don't have.

This set just really makes me sad overall. There's just nothing for me to get super excited about and I play casual, EDH and Standard (competitive and non).

-So many of the card choices just seem completely random and out of nowhere.
-Key coreset cards like dual lands and O. Ring are absent
-Horrible reprint choices (Nightmare, RARE Domestication, Shivan Dragon)
-Planar Cleansing is the best boardwipe we get in a fast, aggro-dominated format
-Sliver ripoffs that were such blatant knockoffs of slivers that they just got renamed to Slivers
-No new Sliver "lord", despite hints of there being one (at least, that was my understanding)
-No lords of any kind. Was hoping for some obscure tribe lords that would foreshadow creature types from Theros (Minotaur, for example)
-No 3CC Garruk and Chandra (I know they could have potentially been too good or flat out terrible, but I wanted to complete the cycle!)
-Terrible Lili, Ajani and Jace reprints
-Nothing to really help boost Rav's multicolor theme.
-Lots of terrible Minotaurs (Come on, it's obvious that they're going to be a tribe in Theros. Why not give us some interesting ones instead of bland limited filler?)
-Choosing to reprint Darksteel Forge, which was already reprinted once, as the token expensive casual/EDH artifact card instead of Crucible of Worlds

Sad stuff indeed. It was nice of them to reprint Mutavault and Ooze, but that's about it. I'm happy for a few of the bomby mythics like Primeval Bounty, Kalonian Hydra and Rise of the Dark Realms for EDH, and a few of the new cards that look fun (Shadowborn stuff, Xanthrid Necromancer, Young Pyromancer, Resonator and Ajani's Chosen). But none of that will give me something to build a new Standard deck with, or help my old ones out (except Pyromancer who has made my Izzet deck very happy).

Quote from Valarin

Not as good as people expected?

Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Vendillion Clique, Cryptic Command, Sword of Fire and Ice, Sword of Light and Shadow, Pact of Negation, Path to Exile, Spellsnare, Tombstalker, etc. And 24 foils per box!

$300 is a deal for a box.

I'm not so sure. Let's break down the set a little:


15 Mythics, 53 rares

Now, based on the average price that these are selling for, the boosters are going for roughly $10, and even up to $15 a piece. So, let's look at which of the Rares/Mythics you need to pull to come close to paying for a pack at that price (and let's face it, there probably won't be many packs per box that have a Path To Exile/Spellsnare/Finks so we have to discount that added value for most packs)

Based on current prices (TCG mid-value):

Mythics

Tarmogoyf $113
Dark Confidant $54
Vendillion Clique $50
Sword of Fire and Ice $30
Elspeth, Knight-Errant $26
Sword of Light and Shadow $25
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker $28
Sarkhan Vol $18
Progenitus $17
Kokusho, the Evening Star $18
Vedalken Shackles $15
Yosei, the Morning Star $8.50
Keiga, the Tide Star $5.50
Jugan, the Rising Star $2.75
Ryusei, the Falling Star $1.45

So, pretty good, right? 11 out of 15 mythics pay for your pack, one almost pays for the pack, and one pays for half or a third (depending on what you paid) of your box. But, let's be real. We all know that we're not going to pull a Goyf, or even a Clique/Confidant in every box. And with mythics being about 1/8 packs, you're going to average about 3 mythics per box (4 if lucky, 1-2 if unlucky like me).

Ok, ok, so mythics can carry a lot of your box value, but we can't count on them to pay for the box alone. So let's look at the rares that pay for a pack no matter what else you pull in it.

$$$ Rares

Cryptic Command $31
Doubling Season $28
Arcbound Ravager $23
Pact of Negation $16.60
Aether Vial $16
Engineered Explosives $16
Glimmervoid $15.70
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner $15.50
Blinkmoth Nexus $15
Summoner's Pact $14.45
Glen Elendra Archmage $14.25
Academy Ruins $13.50
Tooth and Nail $12.85
Bridge from Below $12.50
Maelstrom Pulse $11.80
Gifts Ungiven $10.50
Grand Arbiter $10.44
Woodfall Primus $10
Lotus Bloom $10
Blood Moon $9.40 (Close enough)
Chalice of the Void $9 (close enough)

So, 21/53 rares pay for your pack. 34/68 rares-mythics. Not bad at all. And there are a number of other rares worth more than a normal booster but less than a MM booster.

Decent Rare Pulls

Adarkar Valkyrie $9
Ethersworn Canonist $8.50
Knight of the Reliquary $8.30
Tombstalker $8
Divinity of Pride $8
Kataki, War's Rage $7.75
Jhoira of the Ghitu $6.25
Extirpate $6
Life from the Loam $6
Figure of Destiny $5.80
Demigod of Revenge $5.70
Reveillark $5.40
City of Brass $5
Stonehewer Giant $5
Oona, Queen of the Fae $4.90
Scion of Oona $4.70
Cold-Eyed Selkie $4.27 (barely)

So there's another 17 cards that are decent-good to open. Most aren't exactly paying for your pack, but could if you pull a money common/uncommon or two with them. Overall, still looking good

Money un/commons:

Kitchen Finks $10
Paradise Mantle $8
Spell Snare $7.50
Path to Exile $7
Mind Funeral $5.50
Lightning Helix $4.20
Street Wraith $3.80 (At uncommon)
Eternal Witness $3.70
Lava Spike $3.40
Electroylze $3
Manamorphose $2.70
Flickerwisp $2.50
Trygon Predator $2.33
Relic of Progenitus $2.30
Narcomoeba $2
Krosan Grip $2
Etherium Sculpter $1.50
Murderous Redcap $1.40
Shrapnel Blast $1.22
Epochrasite $1.10 (At rare)
Mad Auntie $1
Rift Bolt $1
Kodama's Reach $1
Myr Retriever $1
Grapeshot .75 (Same as below)
Empty the Warrens .70 (I list this because new art might bump the price)

Some good value, a couple that pay for packs alone, but still a lot of chaff at common/uncommon level.

Let's see what you absolutely do NOT want to open at the rare/mythic slot in $10+ packs:

Jank/worth less than a normal booster:

Molten Disaster $.48
Rude Awakening $.50
Auriok Salvagers .50
Verdeloth, the Ancient .70
Skeletal Vampire .80
Earwig Squad .90
Countryside Crusher $1.44
Ryusei, the Falling Star $1.45
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror $1.66
Death Cloud $1.90
Pyromancer's Swath $1.95
Greater Gargadon $1.99
Jugan, the Rising Star $2.75
Dragonstorm $3
Angel's Grace $3.20
Slaughter Pact $3.40
Squee, Goblin Nabob $3.80

Not a /huge/ list of junk, but in a set with $10 boosters and $200-$300 boxes, I think a few more of those should have been something with value. Overall, it still looks like a good value, at least at $200 a box. But then you have to think about the fact that almost ALL of the valuable commons/uncommons are going to tank hard, especially the cheaper ones and ones like Paradise Mantle. Then you also have to consider all of the rares/mythics that have high value purely because of casual/EDH. I would expect a price crash/lowering on the following:

Divinity of Pride
Adarkar Valkyrie
Grand Arbiter Augustine IV
Woodfall Primus
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Stonehewer Giant
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Progenitus
Sarkhan Vol
Yosei, the Morning Star
Keiga, the Tide Star
Doubling Season (I don't think this card will become worthless, but I can't see it maintaining a $30 price tag. Maybe the old one)

I'd also expect some of the rares with a more narrow use (ones that are only good in certain archtypes like Ravager, Glimmervoid, Summoner's Pact, Lotus Bloom, Nexus, Bridge and Canonist) to lose some good amount of value, as well as sideboard cards like Extirpate and Kataki.

My point is, it looks like a great value right now. But I think price crashes are going to hurt this value a lot. I won't speculate about how long the price dips will last, but it's definitely something to consider before blowing $250-$300 on a box. It's something to think about before even paying $200 for one. *

I know I didn't account for foil value. We don't have enough info yet to factor that in, but from info we have from people who have opened boxes, it seems like you'll mostly get foil commons, a few uncommons and a couple of rares, and with so much chaff in the set, you can't count on pulling foil staples to bail you out.

Well...so far Edlritch Moon just has me full of conflicted feelings. Perhaps that was its goal?

This is adding to my turmoil. I am SUPER happy that I don't have to convince my playgroup to let me use Arlinn as my werewolf commander. I am glad we got a werewolf legendary...maybe I should just leave my comments at that....

Nah, can't do it. This is the internet. Honestly, we really had to wait 5 years for them to "figure out how a legendary flip creature would work" just to get something as uninspired as a Wolfir Silverheart with a flip of Prey Upon? Are YOU JOKING?! Listen, I'm not even discussing the power-level of this card yet. I am just talking about the painfully bland, and basic design. Werewolves have only gotten 2 Blocks!! 2!! We don't have access to multiple lord styles or play types. Our only thing is the flip mechanic and you can't let our legendary have some influence on that? Why? Because we got Vildin-Pack Alpha? Just full of wtf right now.

This card's flavor is basically - looky, I make my wolf companion thuper thtrong when I enter! Hey, don't hurt my wolfie buddy!! I'm gonna fight you now! FFS...I hate myself for typing that sentence but I'm going to let it stick.
Where is my meme? Makes Werewolf Lord ==> Has Nothing To Do With Werewolves - someone make that for me, please (with the stupid hat and stuff).

Also, why does Ulrich look so much like Sage of Ancient Lore? Hey, great job in making him unique and identifiable as a Legendary...G** Da****!

Now, his power level outside of my bias for wanting a werewolf - it seems very good in this standard meta. That's a very big power buff on the front and I like the removal potential on the backend. In all honesty, this card has no need to be a werewolf, so looking at it as just a static creature, I would be happy to pay 5 mana for these effects. Especially in green.

Btw, this guy is nowhere close to as good as Huntmaster. If your board is empty and you cast Ulrich, ypu paid 5 for a 4/4 unless yoy can give him haste. If you can, you get an 8/8 that's easily chumped. He is a step in the direction that werewolves should go but definitely not Huntmaster level

Wow. That's disappointing.

I'm certainly no expert, but I'd say go on $33 for a foil PW. I own a cube with an enormous number of walkers, and am pretty much resigned to having to pay at least $25 for a foil of any planeswalker card, no matter how underplayed. The next PW duel deck is nissa vs nixilis, so you're insulated from a price cratering on Arlinn for at least another 6 to 9 months. I also would be skeptical of wizards selecting her as the face card of whatever SOI duel deck they come out with next year. Jace vs Nahiri, Nahiri vs Sorin, or Nahiri vs Liliana would be my guesses for the featured PWs on next year's product.

It's the Moon.

Quote from sealteamfive »

Tough road to walk eh? Hard to satisfy everyone. Instead Wizards takes a measured approach that walks a fine line trying to give every group something.

Except they are satisfying less people than they should be. That fine line isn't as small as you think and they are far too cautious right now, considering this is their third attempt and yet they took a step backward in many areas.

Quote from DanzBorin »

I think Karakas at mythic reaffirms the fact that although shrouded in the "Draft" excuse, many shifts in rarity are indeed for a cash grab, not balance. Wasteland at rare does too...

For real. It just destroys nonbasic lands. In this draft setting you are mostly going to run basics and perhaps a khan land or two. Maybe Maze of Ith and Karakas but that is at the far end as well. So Limited players can't cry "omg muh Draft format is destroyed!". Sinkhole I can understand the rare bump because have these suckers at common/uncommon would be a bad time. This is coming from a person who hates Draft. You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Yes there may be some for draft like Control Magic being a rare (Limited Players HATE HATE HATE creature theft) but some things like Argothian Enchantress at mythic is dumb. There isn't even that many good enchantments to run her. Plus she is a 0/1 with Shroud... she can't hit CRAP! How is she busted in Limited?

I think Karakas at mythic reaffirms the fact that although shrouded in the "Draft" excuse, many shifts in rarity are indeed for a cash grab, not balance. Wasteland at rare does too...

There is absolutely no reason for Tarmogoyf to be mythic aside from secondary market value. It's not very good in limited (I drafted a ton of Future Sight, I can say this from experience) and it isn't flashy and "epic" enough to deserve it otherwise. By process of elimination, it was either made mythic due to the secondary market, an error, or because of profound incompetence on Wizards' part. Seeing as they did it twice, we can rule out incompetence and error. Secondary market value is the only remaining possibility, you don't need a Mark Rosewater quote to see this.

Quote from damagecase »

That would be a bad idea for WotC. They cannot dip into that proverbial well many times without poisoning it. Old cards can only be reprinted so many times before they are devalued. If they are devalued the game is devalued. Further if they print legacy cards in standard, people will play legacy, not standard. Standard is WotC sustainable resource. If they print legacy stuff in standard they hamstring themselves twice, once by devaluing the game in general and then again by moving people away from their bread and butter product.

Beta Birds of Paradise is still a $740-800 card despite being reprinted thirteen times, mostly in unlimited print run sets.

Quote from BauerBoss »

If you think that the cards are too pricy, make more money, or don't buy them. They'll print cheaper sets for the people who are too good to work real jobs.

I like how you have a signature that slags off MTGS while making what is easily one of the most ignorant statements I have ever seen on this forum. Unless you're in the top 1% of earners, Magic is a ludicrously expensive hobby. Most people with "real jobs" and half a brain would prefer to save for retirement, pay off debt, or make a downpayment on a house rather than buy in to a Legacy deck.