Yeah dude, Mission Briefing is the truth! The first time casting it on T4 of opponent’s upkeep allowed me to Surveil 2 and set up a TM miracle which was 2 deep and then Gigadrowse for 2. Dumping more cards into the graveyard helped my Azcanta flip earlier to aid in getting to 9 Awakening mana.
I too am running mono blue. Splitting between 2 Snaps and 2 MBs. I think MB has a great home in Turns.
Mission Briefing into Serum Visions is super digging! Surveil 2, draw a card, scry 2.
MBing Opt at opponent’s EOT is solid too.
Do you have a list? These are some fantastic synergies, but I'm curious as to what has been omitted in order to fit both Serums and Opts alongside a 2/2 Snap/MB split and some number of SfA.
My rounds were:
1st vs Amulett Titan - 2:0
First Game, I killed him with Gigadrowse and Exhaustion, because then he couldn't pay for his Summoner's Pact. Game two, I had Chalice on 0 and 1, then combo'ed.
2nd round vs Bant Spirits - 0:2
I lost both games to a lot of disruption backed on creatures - no chance of winning.
3rd round vs Ad Nauseam - 2:0
First game, a miracle'ed Mastery made me combo off a turn before my opponent could.
Game 2, I had a lot of disruption, then miracle'ed me into the driver's seat of a combo mirror and had just everything.
I finished 3rd place, and received 6 Boosters for it. Still a nice deck that catches many meta decks stone cold. But those new tribal midrange decks (read: Humans and Spirits - not Eldrazi) are giving me a lot of trouble. Though I never drew Thing in the Ice, which is probably huge in those MU's.
Greetings
Nice work!
I love how just about every mono-blue player brings their own spice to the sideboard. Swan Song is one I've seen before, but haven't got around to trying; Spellbomb and U Teferi are new ones as far as I've seen. Love it!
Re: Oust vs Condemn, they both seem fine but I'd probably lean toward Oust unless your deck operates at Instant speed more common than is normal for Turns. I sure wish I'd had access to something like Oust in SCG 'Cuse when my Human opponent's Teeg was locking me out, and he didn't risk the Teeg with a single attack.
thanks for sharing that, this seems like a good thing to keep an eye on.
You got it!
IMO Trophy has made the Tron matchup better, but the choices are also murkier from our perspective at every stage of preparation/execution: sideboard composition, sideboard ins and outs, keeps/mulls, and gameplay patterns. These complications are exacerbated further since some Tron players are, at least in the short term, noticeably re-tooling their sideboards. Even if the Goyf tech doesn't stick, we could--for example--see a more permanent uptick in the numbers of Thragtusk in average sideboards. As you say, this will be a good thing to keep an eye on.
My post was of course partially tongue-in-cheek, but over on the last page of the Tron thread, some of what seem to be their most dedicated players are talking up the Goyf sideboard plan. One of them links to this, wherein a streamer breaks down his build (including 3x Goyf out of the side). Both the streamer and the poster who linked his content seem to believe that Goyf shines most against BGx in general and BG Rock in particular (but yeah, it's gotta be great for them against Burn as well, among others).
I'm happy to leave it at that if this topic doesn't warrant further exploration; maybe it's only a flash in the pan. But treacherous Tarmogoyfs are definitely a possibility to be wary of when headed into post-side games against Tron, at least for the moment.
One or two posters in the Jund thread are working on making Frenzied Jund (that’s not necessarily what they’re calling it, but I like the name lol) a thing. Seems interesting. I’ve also seen reports of people trying Frenzy as a 1/2-of value engine in Skred Red with mixed results.
The card’s potential is clearly insane, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t quite catch on in Modern for a while, or at least until a busted enabler is accidentally printed, lol.
I think the 4 Tracker/2 Tasigur configuration is people copying Jeff Hoogland's list, which he's been streaming to a reasonable amount of success. The 3 Brutalities in the main and no Dark Confidant basically makes it pre-boarded for the creature matchups, which is a solid place to be. I think his list struggles a bit against Celestial Colonnade decks though, because it's a little less threat dense. His post-board configuration for the B/G/x mirror also doesn't look great on paper. Given the general MTGO metagame, with that in mind it doesn't strike me as surprising that this type of configuration is doing well.
I've noticed the same, and just personally I've been running a 60 that's very similar to his, alongside a 15 that's radically different. It feels great to--as you say--be pre-boarded against creature decks, while still having a pile of cards to bring in for those matchups, as well as for BGx mirrors, where his build is decidedly lacking.
I truly don't think we have to give up much in order to be well-configured against creatures and midrange, either. We're already looking pretty good against most combo decks; another discard spell or two goes quite a long way, coupled with the fact that a Spellbomb/Extraction split covers us well against graveyard decks while spilling over into frequent use against combo. 1-2 additional discard effects also help enormously against control; add in a narrow hoser like Choke and 1-2 Planeswalkers, and that should be sufficient tech against the blue mages.
The most significant things I've given up to be strongly positioned against go-wide and midrange are the Damping Spheres. What are peoples' experiences with this card post-Trophy? How highly do you all rate the effect? I'm a little low on it right now...combo decks aren't an issue for me, and between 4 Field and 4 Trophy (plus an Extraction or two), Tron is usually on the hardcast plan against me anyway, so Sphere offers yet more redundancy in terms of keeping them off Tron--which is fine, but my thinking is just that I'd rather be deploying a threat on T2. Any thoughts here?
Good post in regard to the math behind our land spread as well. I think a big reason to play Taking Turns over other, faster combo decks is our consistency, which allows us to run an enormous amount of interaction (relative to most combo decks), which in turn allows us to survive long enough to reach our combo threshold. So, if we're reducing our consistency (and therefore our ability to survive) in terms of the ability to produce U, perhaps we should ask ourselves: does this change merit such a trade-off?
For me, that answer in regard to Gemstone Caverns and Mikokoro is a nailed-on yes. For Inkmoth, the answer is still yes, but a less emphatic one. Then we have cards like Radiant Fountain and Field of Ruin, for which the answer is yes, if the meta demands them.
I could see playing Fountain in a meta inundated by Burn and other linear aggro, and I could see playing Field in a meta overrun by Tron and Inkmoth decks--but, as you've demonstrated, these inclusions come at a real cost.
The only problem I have with the card is that there is never a time where field of ruin is better then what the deck is already doing.
Like if you're playing against an Inkmoth Nexus - gigadrowse/exhaustion/boomerang/path if you splash white/fatal push if you splash black
and vs tron we are already favored so we don't really need to dedicate additional hate cards in the way that a traditional control deck would need to
Like Grim Flayer says in his videos a lot, we only need to hit that "magical five mana" lol
So if one of our turns is spent hitting one of their lands then it needs to completely neutralize them for a turn in the process as our other forms of interaction do.
Five mana is magical, it's science!
I definitely agree that we're just naturally well positioned against the decks where Field shines.
Bingo! That's spot on about Mana Leaks. Swapped them with Remands and haven't looked back since.
Nice. Remand is an important piece of the puzzle in this deck IMO.
Thanks for the advice on Leylines. They've been part of my sideboard since the days of Death's Shadow ruling the format. Maybe they should go considering my meta.
Considering them a meta call makes total sense. I don't wish to dissuade you from using them entirely; after all, discard is pretty brutal against us. But in an environment dominated by Spirits and UWC it does sound like you'll get more mileage out of other cards in your side.
Suscribed
Thanks again Grim!
Anytime, my friend, and thanks a ton for subscribing!
Seems like most people are on Rock instead of Abzan now, is that accurate?
That appears to be the trend, and I must say that the cohesion, consistency, and power of the “big” Golgari builds (25 land, 4 Tracker, 2 Tasigur) have set me on the Rock path over Abzan for the near future.
As to the BGx mirrors, the generally accepted way to sideboard is to cut your discard spells in favor of cards that kill permanents, and more threats of your own. So in a list like the one I’ve been running, siding would look something like this:
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Collective Brutality
+1 Damnation
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Obstinate Baloth
+1 Nissa, Vital Force
+1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
+1 Languish
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
Be sure to allow for minor changes based on the specific composition of the opposing BGx deck. For instance, I may not want the Languish against the exact mirror of 25-land, no-Bob Golgari because it doesn’t kill much, and there will be matchups where you may want to retain access to a Brutality or two...but you get the idea.
I play 3 Fields of Ruin in addition to Mikokoro, Inkmoth and Gemstone. The cost is that sometimes you don't have enough blue sources, but still 17 out of 23 lands
It helps against tron, colonnade, inkmoth nexus and so many other decks.
I could see something like that working. With such a landbase, I’d personally be inclined to reverse my 4/3 split of Gigadrowse/Exhaustion to a 3/4, and probably would look to cut the Inkmoth...but either way it seems playable. Adding a shuffle effect to mono-blue is interesting as well.
Wow im amazed you have that much content already going! Keep it up man I subscribed
If you have the access to do it over time; you should post coverage of UW/UB/UR and see how they work... Personally I'd love to see a Chandra version since she is a far more efficient game finisher then Jace's ult
Thanks for the sub my friend, I truly appreciate it.
In an ideal world I’d definitely give all the splashes a spin on the channel. For me, the big barrier is cost. I’m not really looking to amass an MTGO collection of Modern staples; it’s more a vehicle for me to get as experienced and in-depth as possible with the decks I own in paper. But if I do end up liking the idea of a splash enough to consider playing it long term, you can be sure that I’ll give it a thorough treatment on the channel!
I like the look of your list a lot! I'd definitely be interested to hear more about your choice to run 3x Mana Leak (presumably competing with Remand). Is it just because you have enough card advantage with 3x Howling Mine, and therefore would rather have a permanent answer than a temporary one that cantrips?
Torbor Orb is new tech I haven't tested out yet. I ran Supreme Verdict there but got frustrated at getting it exiled by Spell Queller, named by Meddling Mage, duressed by Kitesail Freebooter or just not having WW before turn 4. Other than that this is the list I've been running. Any idea on how to optimise it against Spirits?
Torpor Orb is some spice. Narrow, yes, but I think we can afford a couple slots dedicated to narrow cards. I don't mind that Riot Control either...Timely Reinforcements may still offer more across the meta as a whole, but Riot Control should be more helpful against Spirits.
As to further optimizing your sideboard for that matchup, I would say that the first thing you need to decide is whether or not you can part with your Leylines; if not, you're probably about as tooled up for Vial decks as you can be. If you can go without the Leylines, that frees up four slots, and the next thing to do is to run the numbers and figure out what you'd have to do to make WW consistently on Turn 4 (and whether that's worth whatever sacrifices you'd have to make). If that's viable, maybe some combination of Verdict and Terminus, plus more Paths.
It honestly seems as though you may only need a little more help to get over the line against them. They're a tough nut to crack, no doubt, but our blue interaction is still decent, and Queller can't stop our time walks!
Dear mono-blue players, I highly recommend playing 2 or 3 copies of Field of Ruin. They are amazing and almost free.
Field is one of my favorite cards in the format--and I agree that it fits just fine in U Turns--but by "almost free" do you mean that we can afford to run them alongside other (mostly) colorless utility lands like Caverns/Mikokoro/Inkmoth, or do you think those are outclassed by Field?
To me, Field is playable but less necessary than the abovementioned cards.
2) I LOVE Thing in the Ice in this deck! At worst, it slows down the opponent's development when deployed early. If they Path to Exile it, it's like we just cast Rampant Growth and made them discard a card. Most often, it ends the game far more quickly than our other options.
Thing is off-the-charts incredible here. I see that you're maindecking a full playset (@purklefluff also mentioned considering Thing in the main a little while back). AS a BGx player, I still can't quite get behind this. Assassin's Trophy will certainly be the cause of a big upswing in such decks--even if it's only temporary--and IMO, straight up BG Rock will gain and retain the most meta share when all it said and done. This is bad news for maindeck Thing, because Golgari decks want to play 4x Fatal Push and 4x Trophy (plus other removal like Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil) for the most part. So while I don't think Thing in the main is strictly incorrect or anything, I will say that we gain a lot of percentage points by blanking opponents' G1 removal with them in the side instead.
I'm not so sure we gain that much by blanking the opponent's removal game 1. If they play said removal, they aren't developing their own board, and depending on the removal, they may be giving us an extra land in the exchange. As I said above, if my Thing in the Ice becomes "Rampant Growth plus you tap land and discard a card," I'm all for it.
This is a hard thing to quantify, of course, but I feel we benefit significantly when the opponent's removal is dead (or nearly so). Fatal Push is the big boogeyman here; it answers Thing cleanly, favors your opponent on tempo, and the fact that it costs only one mana means that common lines like Gigadroswing them on their upkeep or Exhausting them and passing don't protect your Thing from your opponent going land into Push.
It feels way better to get your Thing Pathed, for sure, but it feels better still for those Paths to have no targets at all besides a stray Snappy or two!
Interesting. I had just cut that AV in favor of the Mine. Let the second-guessing commence.
Ha, that's the name of the game. But yeah, I would say that if you're going to maindeck a playset of Things, you want to err on the side of synergies that favor them.
Thank you both @Grim_Flayer and @zcowan. That was a lot of very valuable feedback. All of your replies were very well thought out, and whether I replied to them or not, I'll give them serious consideration.
I personally don't run Jace, The Mind Sculptor because I've crammed in 4 Thing in the Ice into my main, and need all the spells I can get. You're not going that route, so I'd take the advice of others here and run 1-2 of the 'walker. Be careful, though. I don't see him as a card that buys you any time; he's more of a setup/wincon, if I'm not mistaken. Three may be too many.
I LOVE Nexus of Fate. I had been running two, but trimmed it to one due to the high mana cost. With 4 Temporal Mastery (if you want a miracle, you have to play the odds), I found myself stuck on mana a little too often, so I switched one Nexus to a third Part the Waterveil. That definitely helped the curve -- several games, I played a Part with exactly 6 land on the table, where I couldn't have played Nexus. I also had one game where that single Nexus showed up THREE TIMES! With Jace, maybe you want two of them for the shuffle.
I can't emphasize this enough: DITCH THE FETCH LANDS. Your life is a precious resource, and there's no reason to waste it fetching basic islands, when the fetches could just be those islands. Thinning your deck isn't a viable strategy, here, since we need at least seven lands to truly roll. The shuffling after Jace's Brainstorm is neat, but how many dead cards do we really have? And we draw them all, anyway.
Howling Mine may just be better than Search for Azcanta (draw both instead of 'yarding one). The latter is an OK interaction with Jace's Brainstorm, but as with the fetch lands, it's probably not worth it.
I was going to say that 10 "Turn" spells may be too few, but Nexus of Fate really changes that math. It's fascinating, and I hadn't thought of it until just now. It might allow us to maintain the odds of chaining turns while reducing the chance of having too many in-hand before we have the mana. I can't wait to sit down and work out THAT math! (Anybody got Frank Karsten's number?)
Personally, I don't like Snapcaster Mage in our deck. (Gonna catch a lot of flak here, I think.) What are we snapping? We're playing on the brink, trying to start a chain before the opponent simply wins because we haven't interacted enough. By the time we can snap something effective, like an Exhaustion, Gigadrowse, or Cryptic Command, we have enough mana that we'd rather he just be another turn spell, or one of those spells. I'd rather your Snaps be a 4th Gigadrowse and a 4th Remand. The early turns are so vital, and if you're spending one of them casting Serum Visions and another casting Jace, I think you need to maximize the chances of delaying the oppoonent on Turns 2 and 3.
Good luck, and let us know how you do!
Strong post here overall, but I'm happy to give you a little bit of that predicted flak over Snapcaster. As a two-of he is an unparalleled consistency tool. He improves the control side of our he game when snaps back whatever interaction is best in the matchup. He serves as +2 to your time walk count when he snaps back Time Warp. He ambushes early attackers in aggro decks, digs us out of clunky progressions with an early repeat of Serum, and even ends games on his own a surprising amount of the time.
@Charlieguide I am horrible at formatting quotes on here so I'll just address a couple random things you mentioned.. Now keep in mind that I play UW so the deck is a little different but not really (especially in game 1 before side boarding in the white cards lol)
Nexus of Fate:
The main problem with this card is it's mana cost as you mentioned, but it's more than that.. At 7 mana you potentially need 9 to cast it because you don't want to run into a counter spell that ruins everything (you want to be able to Remand their counter, etc).. Yes in a perfect situation where you beautifully set up a gigadrowse or exhaustion the path is clear but realistically there are many games with this deck where the opponent has open mana and you need to play around the fact that they may have a dispel or something to interact. That's why in my opinion the card is bad. They will allow you to resolve all the time warps in the world but the second you go all in on an extra turn spell there will be a lot of times you get punished. Especially with the popularity of UW control right now. That's why I always wait on Part the Waterveil until I've completely reduced my chances of it being countered. Plus it's shuffle effect is just a cute bonus, it really isn't that important.
Snapcaster Mage:
I think Snapcaster is super important in this deck. Unlike control I don't think you should be running 4 or 3 but 1-2 is really good. Now I do think the deck can get away with not running them like for budget reasons and whatnot but they do two really good things: A) it's an early pressure in the combo, swinging for 2 each turn does a lot when you factor in that they had to fetch/shock some of their life away also. and B) all of our spells are excellent when cast a second time. Being able to chain Exhaustion or even instant speed counter/gigadrowse. Plus each one effectively counts as an additional time warp effect in essence.
Also kind of irrelevant but has come up in playing the deck.. A lot of people play way into snapcaster mage in modern. They see it and immediately think "graveyard hate" so they sideboard in Rest in peace and Relic of Progenitus which effectively are useless because we don't rely heavily on our graveyard. I've had so many games against BR Hollow One at my LGS where the guy sideboards in a full playset of Leyline of the Void and clogs their deck up for it to do nothing relevant
Fetches: Not as important, but in two colors they are kind of helpful in that they smooth out the colors. I agree in mono blue it isn't as important.. I mean like without them you can run more nonbasic utility lands in essence while keeping the same high amount of islands.. Someone mentioned Field of Ruin previously, I think as a one of it could make sense but I don't think it does anything we REALLY need. Like our tron matchup is already strong and I think if color denial was our route it would make sense to instead run like a playset or couple Spreading Seas in the side/or main...
But i do think that mono blue should take advantage of like Inkmoth and Mikokoro and all
Great post. I'm with you on all of this, especially how Snapcaster is a grave hate magnet. The frequency with which such pieces get sided in against me after I show the opponent a single Snapcaster is sort of hilarious.
Keep up the solid discussion, everyone, and just so you all know, I've got a decent amount of U Turns content up on my fledgling channel now:
@Grim Flayer
I agree with that wall of text haha. I ran the As Foretold build a while ago and it was fun but there were situations in which you just cast a time warp for free but then had no big follow up with your mana. That being said, I think I may go back to mono blue for a while. The white splash has been really strong but everyone in my area expects it lol
Yep, As Foretold builds seems to have a higher rate of fizzling from what I can tell. (Note that failing to continue chaining Turns doesn’t always qualify as fizzling, so long as you can shut them down when you pass back via Gigadrowse/Exhaustion/Cryptic.)
(Since Commandeer is still bugged on MTGO last I checked, I’ve tried various things in its place: a Relic of Progenitus, a second Negate, a third Truth. Considering picking up a second AV for that slot, we’ll see.)
Also, stay tuned; I started up a YouTube channel last week, and as soon as my new microphone arrives (should be 2-3 days from now), the first thing I’m going to do is record an extensive deck tech regarding this build, followed by uploading a couple matches with it (I played some sweet ones yesterday, so hopefully the MTGO replay system doesn’t spaz out on me). I’ll keep you posted!
Guys, kudos for keeping up a very intelligent and productive conversation. I've been curious about this deck for over a year, now, and giving it serious thought for a few months thanks in large part to the discussion here.
Glad to hear it! This type of constant feedback and discussion is especially nice when we're playing a rogue deck like this one.
Here's what I've gleaned from the comments on this forum, and my own brainstorming. I'd really value your feedback.
1) I like the Mono-U version. We're not trying to control the board forever, just buy time until we "go off," and Blue is VERY good at delay tactics. When considering our life as a resource, I don't want to spend it on getting W sources.
Same. Life is a resource in this deck more than in most Modern ones. People are also way less prepared (in terms of both card choice and experience) for the type of interaction Mono-U brings to bear. That said, the W and B splashes are still just as strong IMO, but you've correctly identified the reasons to want to stay within the bounds of what U has to offer.
2) I LOVE Thing in the Ice in this deck! At worst, it slows down the opponent's development when deployed early. If they Path to Exile it, it's like we just cast Rampant Growth and made them discard a card. Most often, it ends the game far more quickly than our other options.
Thing is off-the-charts incredible here. I see that you're maindecking a full playset (@purklefluff also mentioned considering Thing in the main a little while back). AS a BGx player, I still can't quite get behind this. Assassin's Trophy will certainly be the cause of a big upswing in such decks--even if it's only temporary--and IMO, straight up BG Rock will gain and retain the most meta share when all it said and done. This is bad news for maindeck Thing, because Golgari decks want to play 4x Fatal Push and 4x Trophy (plus other removal like Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil) for the most part. So while I don't think Thing in the main is strictly incorrect or anything, I will say that we gain a lot of percentage points by blanking opponents' G1 removal with them in the side instead.
I think it is, at least in the context of your build with the Things main. For more traditional builds, I have come to like a split of both. 4x Dictate supplemented by 1-2 each of JtMS, AV, and Mine seems like the stock recipe we want to be working from.
4) Because Modern decks can usually win unopposed by turn 4 or earlier, I think we need to be able to count on two "disruptive" spells in our first four turns. Run the math, and you'll see if we have 16 of those spells, we have an 82% chance of drawing two of them by the time we've drawn 10 cards. Every additional disruption card in the deck adds about 3%. Every additional card we draw (or filter) adds 4%. The problem is, card draw spells only work if we draw and cast them, so when building the deck, cantrip spells like Remand count as about 1/4 of a card drawn. (Serum Visions, by my math, counts as a full card drawn due to the number of cards it exposes you to.)
Interesting. I agree that you usually either need to interact twice before you go off, or you need to have one piece of interaction line up perfectly (T4 Exhaustion on the play against a pure aggro deck after end-stepping a T3 Dictate, Remand against a durdly midrange start, etc.).
I like a lot of what's going on here. Always been a fan of Flashfreeze in general. 4 Boomerang in the 75 might be a little high. I see what you're after with Dragon's Claw, but Chalices will be an incredible upgrade for those slots. Chalice iswithout question one of the most powerful cards we have access to; it's incredible in a lot of otherwise very questionable matchups. 12 extra turn spells is also a tad high for my tastes--I run 10 and would also consider 9 or 11--especially with Things around. You don't necessarily need to chain more than an extra turn or two together in this setup.
In all my playtesting and two FNM's, I've beaten Humans (when they didn't draw many Kitesail Freebooters), Affinity, Scapeshift, Tron, E-Tron, UW Control, and some other brews. Favorite moments: 1) vs UW Control when the OP tapped out at the end of my turn and mumbled 'I don't think there's an instant turn spell' and I smiled and cast Nexus of Fate and never gave him another untap step. 2) vs E-Tron on Turn 5 after going to turns ... and taking ALL FIVE OF THEM!
I've lost, though, to Jeskai Pyromancer (I guess it's still a thing) Humans (when they draw lots of Kitesail Freebooters), Grixis Death's Shadow, and UG Emerge. I could attribute at least some of each loss to mana screw/flood, but the common thread was they all had very disruptive gameplans. I also imagine having trouble with the speed of Bogles and Infect, thus the sideboard choices.
I'm considering dropping the Boomerangs for a second Ancestral Vision and a Search for Azcanta.
So ... any thoughts or suggestions?
I was also going to say that I'm not a huge fan of Nexus, but admittedly it's pretty sweet to be able to end step a time walk lol. Some posters ITT are fans of Search; I'm not really one of them, but it's certainly viable. The second AV sounds great though!
So couple side notes @charlieguide; not sure if cost is a factor
But since you are running mono blue you can afford some leniency in your mana base.. I would recommend trying to run: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Mikokoro Center of the Sea, and Gemstone Caverns/Inkmoth Nexus possibly over time.. They all do a really good job at smoothing out areas in the deck while not digging into spots reserved for key spells
Also, I would probably cut a cryptic for another draw engine.. Ancestral Vision alone isn't reliable unless you are chaining turns since they will most likely outpace you.. I would recommend at least one Howling Mine.. even though im not a fan of it since it dies to SOOOO much artifact hate, it does do the job efficiently when it resolves and your opponent passes back even once. Plus cryptic is late game interaction honestly so running more than 2 in a deck like this throws off the curve
Other than that, everything looks right on! Glad our discussions have helped in a way! I honestly love this deck to the point where even losses are fun. Its just such a niche combo that people are never expecting and when you win you feel unbeatable. It reminds me of High Tide in legacy in that sense
Thanks for the feedback.
No, budget is not a factor. I was trying to keep it a clean plan and not get too cute. I thought Part the Waterveil and Thing in the Ice made Inkmoth Nexus unnecessary, but you're the second person to mention it in as many days. I'll give it a shot. Gemstone Caverns and the draw-lands have been on my radar, too. That would mean cutting Radiant Fountains; what is your experience in the burn matchup? Can we afford not to have them, there?
Radiant Fountain is a nice one without doubt, but for me it doesn't quite make the cut. I'd say, in order of priority:
1) Mikokoro and Caverns. Both are must-haves. You know those games where you're interacting really well but you don't have a payoff for interacting in the form of Thing or a Mine effect? Mikokoro can fill that void incredibly well, and bridge you into a stage of the game where you find one. As for Caverns, quite simply, the card steals games. Taking back the play is incredibly powerful in this deck. T1 Thing, T1 Chalice, T2 Dictate, T3 Cryptic, etc.
2) Inkmoth Nexus. Not strictly needed, unlike the abovementioned pair, but still strong enough to warrant a slot. It's basically a free inclusion that functions as alternate wincon (which is appealing since you aren't playing JtMS), sped-up wincon (relevant for eliminating the rare occasions where we totally brick in the late game), and chump blocker in a pinch (I've won a hopeless-looking game before by chumping with Inky to stay alive, topdecking a Miracled Temporal Mastery, resolving a JtMS, and winning from there).
3) Radiant Fountain. Another "free" inclusion, expect that it starts to come at a cost when you consider the 2-3 (Caverns is sometimes colored, sometimes a Wastes) colorless sources above. I actually rate its effect somewhat highly, just slightly below Inkmoth. You could try to play 4-5 of these utility lands, but that may be greedy.
I'm not sure I agree on cutting a Cryptic Command, though. I've relied on it heavily; Turn 4 is almost always either that or Gigadrowse.
I'm with you here. Most people don't advise more than 2 Cryptics, but I have loved 3 (and even wanted to play 4 from the outset :D).
Are you comfortable with the absence of Serum Visions?
AV > Search in your build...and yeah, with 4x Thing around, Serum should honestly be a 4-of as well IMO. Both cards are great in the deck and they have incredible synergy together: Serum is our cheapest spell that can remove a counter from Thing, and it also helps you find yet more ways to work toward flipping him.
Funny anecdote re: High Tide. Back in the late 90's when it was in Standard, I had a friend who loved running that deck. He once sat down next to a first-timer who had a huge deck of unsleeved cards. My friend went off and demonstrated the combo (Palinchron, I think?), then arbitrarily picked a number, "mill ... 100 cards." The kid started COUNTING OFF CARDS and when he got to 100, he looked at my friend and shrugged, because he STILL HAD 20 CARDS IN HIS DECK! My friend lost because he was unable to restart the combo!
Lol, when your kitchen table pile next-levels the opposition.
Alright so I had my PPTQ Sunday! My record was: 5-1
5 turns and then top4 (we were 16 players).
First turn: 2-1 (Gw value + combo devoted druid/vizir)
Nothing to say here..He can only win if i have no counter/gigadrowse and if he combo at turn 3
Second turn: 2-0 (UWr control)
Second game was amazing becouse i win without krufix/mine with about 15 lands each, with very huge counterwar but at the end i win with my animated 6/6 land.
Third turn: 1-2 (Uw spirits)
Not an easy MU
Four turn: 2-0 (Uw Control)
Very easy MU
Fifth turn: ID vs Burn
Top4: 2-0 (GW value of the first turn's guy)
He cry a lot becouse a MIRACLE 2 time but one time i scryed top one.
Final: I concede to burn player becouse i can't go to Rome in December becouse work
BTW, the deck is very solid and has great MU versus almost all control decks.
Negative MU: burn, spirits and all decks with tasigur/counter early.
I play:
Speaking of spirits, my meta concists mostly of UW control (yay!) and bant spirits (boo...). How would you guys sideboard against spirits to have a fighting chance? I've found Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass to be decent against Mausoleum Wanderer, but other than that, how would you guys make that match up bearable? I myself run a white splash for sideboard options FYI
You're in luck, because the Aether Vial decks (Humans, Spirits, Merfolk, D&T) are one of the most compelling reasons to splash a color. At the risk of stating the obvious, bring in anything that kills dudes. A nice mix of wraths, spot removal, and Thing to race should do it, but I'd need to see a list to elaborate further.
Alright guys! Since I always am here bouncing ideas around for the deck, I figured I should share my excitement here lol...
I finally finished building my all time favorite deck - High Tide for Legacy!! It has a lot of similar components to this deck in that it is an off the radar combo but is a lot of fun to play (and it is the reason I got into Taking Turns)
So with that being said, I have gotten all nostalgic and may go to a mono blue version of taking turns for a bit.. Was wondering the group's thoughts on As Foretold taking the place of Howling Mine and going for more cantrips and more Ancestral Vision?
Also what is your views on Boomerang? Have you tried it @GrimFlayer? I used to run it a while back and it wasn't right for the meta but now im thinking it may be a bit better since decks like Jeskai/UW are trying to slam down a Teferi/Jace and run away with the game.. Seems like Boomerang into exhaustion would be perfect
Congrats on building High Tide, that is one sweet deck.
I love Boomerang in here. My most recent tweaks have unfortunately seen it fall by the wayside, but it's a fantastic card, and as you say it's well positioned right now. I'm not so much a fan of the As Foretold builds, however. Our deck is amazingly consistent given the extraordinary nature of what we're trying to do (resolve a 5/6/7-mana Sorcery with a mine effect in play, and this "combo" doesn't even win the game on the spot, just improves our odds significantly)--but it loses a lot of consistency with As Foretold and the full 4 AV in the mix IMO. That particular synergy strikes me a tad win-more, but I also freely admit that my own biases are at play here. I've always hedged toward consistency and value over higher-risk, higher-reward builds.
When Jace, the Mind Sculptor was unbanned, I switched my win-condition to it because it helps a lot digging the deck and it gives some help to get the board in check. Recentl, I added Nexus of Fate to the list and I haven't played much these days. I would like to here what you have to say about my list as I do not have much time to playtest by now and I will attend a PPTQ soon with it.
The list looks very solid to me. My big question is over Nexus of Fate. With JtMS as your primary wincon, the reshuffle effect is pretty nice, but I still think you could get away with switching one of them out for either a second Part or a fourth Temporal.
I myself play a somewhat different-looking sideboard to yours, but in the context of your JtMS focus most of the choices make sense. Echoing Truth and a second Surgical are advised. Let us know how the PPTQ goes!
@DeFish, I like your list and I like where you're coming from in general. Darkblast is definitely one I'll have to keep in mind.
So I recently started up my humble YouTube channel! My timing is predictably awful, since we've just entered the era of Trophy and the few videos I have all predate that, for now. Still, I put together a lengthy deck tech for BG Rock (this is mostly aimed at giving beginners context and application for every inclusion, but may be worthwhile for more experienced players too), and I also have a couple replay matches uploaded with commentary.
If anyone wants to check them out, I'd love your feedback, being new to all this stuff. (My audio is low quality, but I'll be upgrading that before too long.)
(I checked the forum rules and this doesn't seem to qualify as soliciting. At this rate I'm still years away from monetization, lol. Just trying to spread the BGx love in all its forms!)
Coolstuff man, will definitely take a look at these vids and report back. This will be very interesting for newcomers and beginning GBx players for sure.
EDIT: As a first point (and correct me if I missed it, I kinda scrolled through the vid a bit) I would mention the cost or consequence of replacing Bob with Tracker. I always keep getting back to this topic, because I think it is very important. Bob and Tracker do not occupy the same purpose and slot in the deck. So exchanging those two is not a freebe. It comes with a cost. Bob is an early game CA card but Tracker is a endgame Bomb. You said in the video that you play it as a 4 drop, like BBE. But you didn't say (again, correct me if I missed it) that Bob and Tracker can't therfore simply be exchanged unless you are fine by taking out some early game in favour of lategame power.
Thanks for taking a look, my friend, I truly appreciate it.
You’re right in that I didn’t discuss the pros and cons of Tracker vs Bob vs playing both together. I did mention early on that this is only one of several ways to build the deck; I also briefly mentioned the lack of Bob and how I still like him a lot in these sorts of decks, but this particular build eschews him; but I didn’t go any further into the topic than that. In retrospect, I could have delineated the variant Rock shells a little more clearly at the start and then pivoted to discussing in particular the one that I’ve been running. This has been (and will continue to be) very much a learn-as-I-go sort of process, lol!
Hi, welcome to the forum/thread!
Do you have a list? These are some fantastic synergies, but I'm curious as to what has been omitted in order to fit both Serums and Opts alongside a 2/2 Snap/MB split and some number of SfA.
Nice work!
I love how just about every mono-blue player brings their own spice to the sideboard. Swan Song is one I've seen before, but haven't got around to trying; Spellbomb and U Teferi are new ones as far as I've seen. Love it!
Re: Oust vs Condemn, they both seem fine but I'd probably lean toward Oust unless your deck operates at Instant speed more common than is normal for Turns. I sure wish I'd had access to something like Oust in SCG 'Cuse when my Human opponent's Teeg was locking me out, and he didn't risk the Teeg with a single attack.
You got it!
IMO Trophy has made the Tron matchup better, but the choices are also murkier from our perspective at every stage of preparation/execution: sideboard composition, sideboard ins and outs, keeps/mulls, and gameplay patterns. These complications are exacerbated further since some Tron players are, at least in the short term, noticeably re-tooling their sideboards. Even if the Goyf tech doesn't stick, we could--for example--see a more permanent uptick in the numbers of Thragtusk in average sideboards. As you say, this will be a good thing to keep an eye on.
I'm happy to leave it at that if this topic doesn't warrant further exploration; maybe it's only a flash in the pan. But treacherous Tarmogoyfs are definitely a possibility to be wary of when headed into post-side games against Tron, at least for the moment.
(I’m joking about it being an affront)
(...kinda)
The card’s potential is clearly insane, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t quite catch on in Modern for a while, or at least until a busted enabler is accidentally printed, lol.
I've noticed the same, and just personally I've been running a 60 that's very similar to his, alongside a 15 that's radically different. It feels great to--as you say--be pre-boarded against creature decks, while still having a pile of cards to bring in for those matchups, as well as for BGx mirrors, where his build is decidedly lacking.
I truly don't think we have to give up much in order to be well-configured against creatures and midrange, either. We're already looking pretty good against most combo decks; another discard spell or two goes quite a long way, coupled with the fact that a Spellbomb/Extraction split covers us well against graveyard decks while spilling over into frequent use against combo. 1-2 additional discard effects also help enormously against control; add in a narrow hoser like Choke and 1-2 Planeswalkers, and that should be sufficient tech against the blue mages.
The most significant things I've given up to be strongly positioned against go-wide and midrange are the Damping Spheres. What are peoples' experiences with this card post-Trophy? How highly do you all rate the effect? I'm a little low on it right now...combo decks aren't an issue for me, and between 4 Field and 4 Trophy (plus an Extraction or two), Tron is usually on the hardcast plan against me anyway, so Sphere offers yet more redundancy in terms of keeping them off Tron--which is fine, but my thinking is just that I'd rather be deploying a threat on T2. Any thoughts here?
Thanks a ton, it means a lot!
Good post in regard to the math behind our land spread as well. I think a big reason to play Taking Turns over other, faster combo decks is our consistency, which allows us to run an enormous amount of interaction (relative to most combo decks), which in turn allows us to survive long enough to reach our combo threshold. So, if we're reducing our consistency (and therefore our ability to survive) in terms of the ability to produce U, perhaps we should ask ourselves: does this change merit such a trade-off?
For me, that answer in regard to Gemstone Caverns and Mikokoro is a nailed-on yes. For Inkmoth, the answer is still yes, but a less emphatic one. Then we have cards like Radiant Fountain and Field of Ruin, for which the answer is yes, if the meta demands them.
I could see playing Fountain in a meta inundated by Burn and other linear aggro, and I could see playing Field in a meta overrun by Tron and Inkmoth decks--but, as you've demonstrated, these inclusions come at a real cost.
Five mana is magical, it's science!
I definitely agree that we're just naturally well positioned against the decks where Field shines.
Nice. Remand is an important piece of the puzzle in this deck IMO.
Considering them a meta call makes total sense. I don't wish to dissuade you from using them entirely; after all, discard is pretty brutal against us. But in an environment dominated by Spirits and UWC it does sound like you'll get more mileage out of other cards in your side.
Anytime, my friend, and thanks a ton for subscribing!
That appears to be the trend, and I must say that the cohesion, consistency, and power of the “big” Golgari builds (25 land, 4 Tracker, 2 Tasigur) have set me on the Rock path over Abzan for the near future.
As to the BGx mirrors, the generally accepted way to sideboard is to cut your discard spells in favor of cards that kill permanents, and more threats of your own. So in a list like the one I’ve been running, siding would look something like this:
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Collective Brutality
+1 Damnation
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Obstinate Baloth
+1 Nissa, Vital Force
+1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
+1 Languish
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
Be sure to allow for minor changes based on the specific composition of the opposing BGx deck. For instance, I may not want the Languish against the exact mirror of 25-land, no-Bob Golgari because it doesn’t kill much, and there will be matchups where you may want to retain access to a Brutality or two...but you get the idea.
I could see something like that working. With such a landbase, I’d personally be inclined to reverse my 4/3 split of Gigadrowse/Exhaustion to a 3/4, and probably would look to cut the Inkmoth...but either way it seems playable. Adding a shuffle effect to mono-blue is interesting as well.
Thanks for the sub my friend, I truly appreciate it.
In an ideal world I’d definitely give all the splashes a spin on the channel. For me, the big barrier is cost. I’m not really looking to amass an MTGO collection of Modern staples; it’s more a vehicle for me to get as experienced and in-depth as possible with the decks I own in paper. But if I do end up liking the idea of a splash enough to consider playing it long term, you can be sure that I’ll give it a thorough treatment on the channel!
I like the look of your list a lot! I'd definitely be interested to hear more about your choice to run 3x Mana Leak (presumably competing with Remand). Is it just because you have enough card advantage with 3x Howling Mine, and therefore would rather have a permanent answer than a temporary one that cantrips?
Torpor Orb is some spice. Narrow, yes, but I think we can afford a couple slots dedicated to narrow cards. I don't mind that Riot Control either...Timely Reinforcements may still offer more across the meta as a whole, but Riot Control should be more helpful against Spirits.
As to further optimizing your sideboard for that matchup, I would say that the first thing you need to decide is whether or not you can part with your Leylines; if not, you're probably about as tooled up for Vial decks as you can be. If you can go without the Leylines, that frees up four slots, and the next thing to do is to run the numbers and figure out what you'd have to do to make WW consistently on Turn 4 (and whether that's worth whatever sacrifices you'd have to make). If that's viable, maybe some combination of Verdict and Terminus, plus more Paths.
It honestly seems as though you may only need a little more help to get over the line against them. They're a tough nut to crack, no doubt, but our blue interaction is still decent, and Queller can't stop our time walks!
Field is one of my favorite cards in the format--and I agree that it fits just fine in U Turns--but by "almost free" do you mean that we can afford to run them alongside other (mostly) colorless utility lands like Caverns/Mikokoro/Inkmoth, or do you think those are outclassed by Field?
To me, Field is playable but less necessary than the abovementioned cards.
This is a hard thing to quantify, of course, but I feel we benefit significantly when the opponent's removal is dead (or nearly so). Fatal Push is the big boogeyman here; it answers Thing cleanly, favors your opponent on tempo, and the fact that it costs only one mana means that common lines like Gigadroswing them on their upkeep or Exhausting them and passing don't protect your Thing from your opponent going land into Push.
It feels way better to get your Thing Pathed, for sure, but it feels better still for those Paths to have no targets at all besides a stray Snappy or two!
Ha, that's the name of the game. But yeah, I would say that if you're going to maindeck a playset of Things, you want to err on the side of synergies that favor them.
You're welcome!
Strong post here overall, but I'm happy to give you a little bit of that predicted flak over Snapcaster.
Great post. I'm with you on all of this, especially how Snapcaster is a grave hate magnet. The frequency with which such pieces get sided in against me after I show the opponent a single Snapcaster is sort of hilarious.
Keep up the solid discussion, everyone, and just so you all know, I've got a decent amount of U Turns content up on my fledgling channel now:
Deck Tech (lengthy and beginner-friendly, while hopefully offering insight to veterans as well)
Match vs Ponza (audio's a little garbly here but nothing too bad)
Match vs Abzan
Match vs Titanshift
Check 'em out, and me know if you have any suggestions. More matches to come!
Yep, As Foretold builds seems to have a higher rate of fizzling from what I can tell. (Note that failing to continue chaining Turns doesn’t always qualify as fizzling, so long as you can shut them down when you pass back via Gigadrowse/Exhaustion/Cryptic.)
Sure thing:
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Inkmoth Nexus
20x Island
4x Gigadrowse
3x Exhaustion
1x Ancestral Vision
2x Howling Mine
4x Dictate of Kruphix
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Cryptic Command
3x Remand
3x Part the Waterveil
3x Temporal Mastery
4x Time Warp
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thing in the Ice
2x Echoing Truth
2x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Commandeer
1x Hibernation
(Since Commandeer is still bugged on MTGO last I checked, I’ve tried various things in its place: a Relic of Progenitus, a second Negate, a third Truth. Considering picking up a second AV for that slot, we’ll see.)
Also, stay tuned; I started up a YouTube channel last week, and as soon as my new microphone arrives (should be 2-3 days from now), the first thing I’m going to do is record an extensive deck tech regarding this build, followed by uploading a couple matches with it (I played some sweet ones yesterday, so hopefully the MTGO replay system doesn’t spaz out on me). I’ll keep you posted!
Glad to hear it! This type of constant feedback and discussion is especially nice when we're playing a rogue deck like this one.
Same. Life is a resource in this deck more than in most Modern ones. People are also way less prepared (in terms of both card choice and experience) for the type of interaction Mono-U brings to bear. That said, the W and B splashes are still just as strong IMO, but you've correctly identified the reasons to want to stay within the bounds of what U has to offer.
Thing is off-the-charts incredible here. I see that you're maindecking a full playset (@purklefluff also mentioned considering Thing in the main a little while back). AS a BGx player, I still can't quite get behind this. Assassin's Trophy will certainly be the cause of a big upswing in such decks--even if it's only temporary--and IMO, straight up BG Rock will gain and retain the most meta share when all it said and done. This is bad news for maindeck Thing, because Golgari decks want to play 4x Fatal Push and 4x Trophy (plus other removal like Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil) for the most part. So while I don't think Thing in the main is strictly incorrect or anything, I will say that we gain a lot of percentage points by blanking opponents' G1 removal with them in the side instead.
I think it is, at least in the context of your build with the Things main. For more traditional builds, I have come to like a split of both. 4x Dictate supplemented by 1-2 each of JtMS, AV, and Mine seems like the stock recipe we want to be working from.
Interesting. I agree that you usually either need to interact twice before you go off, or you need to have one piece of interaction line up perfectly (T4 Exhaustion on the play against a pure aggro deck after end-stepping a T3 Dictate, Remand against a durdly midrange start, etc.).
I like a lot of what's going on here. Always been a fan of Flashfreeze in general. 4 Boomerang in the 75 might be a little high. I see what you're after with Dragon's Claw, but Chalices will be an incredible upgrade for those slots. Chalice iswithout question one of the most powerful cards we have access to; it's incredible in a lot of otherwise very questionable matchups. 12 extra turn spells is also a tad high for my tastes--I run 10 and would also consider 9 or 11--especially with Things around. You don't necessarily need to chain more than an extra turn or two together in this setup.
I was also going to say that I'm not a huge fan of Nexus, but admittedly it's pretty sweet to be able to end step a time walk lol. Some posters ITT are fans of Search; I'm not really one of them, but it's certainly viable. The second AV sounds great though!
Radiant Fountain is a nice one without doubt, but for me it doesn't quite make the cut. I'd say, in order of priority:
1) Mikokoro and Caverns. Both are must-haves. You know those games where you're interacting really well but you don't have a payoff for interacting in the form of Thing or a Mine effect? Mikokoro can fill that void incredibly well, and bridge you into a stage of the game where you find one. As for Caverns, quite simply, the card steals games. Taking back the play is incredibly powerful in this deck. T1 Thing, T1 Chalice, T2 Dictate, T3 Cryptic, etc.
2) Inkmoth Nexus. Not strictly needed, unlike the abovementioned pair, but still strong enough to warrant a slot. It's basically a free inclusion that functions as alternate wincon (which is appealing since you aren't playing JtMS), sped-up wincon (relevant for eliminating the rare occasions where we totally brick in the late game), and chump blocker in a pinch (I've won a hopeless-looking game before by chumping with Inky to stay alive, topdecking a Miracled Temporal Mastery, resolving a JtMS, and winning from there).
3) Radiant Fountain. Another "free" inclusion, expect that it starts to come at a cost when you consider the 2-3 (Caverns is sometimes colored, sometimes a Wastes) colorless sources above. I actually rate its effect somewhat highly, just slightly below Inkmoth. You could try to play 4-5 of these utility lands, but that may be greedy.
AV > Search in your build...and yeah, with 4x Thing around, Serum should honestly be a 4-of as well IMO. Both cards are great in the deck and they have incredible synergy together: Serum is our cheapest spell that can remove a counter from Thing, and it also helps you find yet more ways to work toward flipping him.
Lol, when your kitchen table pile next-levels the opposition.
Nice job! I really like the look of your list. How would you rate Damping Sphere overall as a component of the sideboard?
You're in luck, because the Aether Vial decks (Humans, Spirits, Merfolk, D&T) are one of the most compelling reasons to splash a color. At the risk of stating the obvious, bring in anything that kills dudes. A nice mix of wraths, spot removal, and Thing to race should do it, but I'd need to see a list to elaborate further.
Congrats on building High Tide, that is one sweet deck.
I love Boomerang in here. My most recent tweaks have unfortunately seen it fall by the wayside, but it's a fantastic card, and as you say it's well positioned right now. I'm not so much a fan of the As Foretold builds, however. Our deck is amazingly consistent given the extraordinary nature of what we're trying to do (resolve a 5/6/7-mana Sorcery with a mine effect in play, and this "combo" doesn't even win the game on the spot, just improves our odds significantly)--but it loses a lot of consistency with As Foretold and the full 4 AV in the mix IMO. That particular synergy strikes me a tad win-more, but I also freely admit that my own biases are at play here. I've always hedged toward consistency and value over higher-risk, higher-reward builds.
The list looks very solid to me. My big question is over Nexus of Fate. With JtMS as your primary wincon, the reshuffle effect is pretty nice, but I still think you could get away with switching one of them out for either a second Part or a fourth Temporal.
I myself play a somewhat different-looking sideboard to yours, but in the context of your JtMS focus most of the choices make sense. Echoing Truth and a second Surgical are advised. Let us know how the PPTQ goes!
Thanks for taking a look, my friend, I truly appreciate it.
You’re right in that I didn’t discuss the pros and cons of Tracker vs Bob vs playing both together. I did mention early on that this is only one of several ways to build the deck; I also briefly mentioned the lack of Bob and how I still like him a lot in these sorts of decks, but this particular build eschews him; but I didn’t go any further into the topic than that. In retrospect, I could have delineated the variant Rock shells a little more clearly at the start and then pivoted to discussing in particular the one that I’ve been running. This has been (and will continue to be) very much a learn-as-I-go sort of process, lol!