Hi there, I'm fairly new to the archetype and having a lot of fun with it at the moment.
My question is about the possibility of an competitive esper build. Has this been tested much? My current build is a fairly stock UB list with a reworked mana base and the main change being 4 PtE replacing the 3 pushes & 1 murderous cut. I see three big upsides of Path that make it worth the splash - 1 it is a far cleaner removal hitting Gurmag, Primetime, Wurmcoil, Arclight etc. 2 - it provides another potential trigger for free Archive Trap. 3 - this one is small but it takes another basic land out of their deck, synergising well with FoR and my one-of Mind Funeral.
The only other change I've made to the maindeck is running 3 Extirpate over Surgicals as a concession to the more painful mana base.
The sideboard gets significant upgrades with Fragmentize as a simple and elegant answer to Leyline of Sanctity, RiP as the best graveyard hate in modern, as well as other great options such as Stony, the new uncounterable Negate - Dovin's Veto, and possibly our own Leyline of Sancititys if burn is an issue in your meta.
Anyway, would love to hear what people think about the potential of a competitive esper mill deck in modern.
Surprised this one hasn't been talked about here yet?!
Finale of Promise XRR Sorcery
You may cast up to one target instant card and/or up to one target sorcery card from your graveyard each with converted mana cost X or less without paying their mana costs. If a card cast this way would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead. If X is 10 or more, copy each of those spells twice. You may choose new targets for the copies.
I realized I should probably clarify that statement about faerie macabre - I meant it can exile 2 different targets at the same time, e.g a bloodghast and a prized amalgam
Hi, just bought into this deck and enjoying it so far. I am on a UW build with a very similar list to the lists that have been generated by this forum, so thank you everyone that has contributed to making this a deck.
Some spice I am currently trialing is 1 Drift of Phantasms as an AF tutor, as well as being able to get detention sphere/stifle bird in a pinch. It came about after several games without seeing AF. Not too sold on it yet tbh, but will stick with it for a while yet and see what I think.
Also trying 3 Faerie Macabre as my SB gy hate instead of RiP/surgical. This one I am really liking. Its virtually uncounterable, grabs 2 cards (those pesky phoenixes) instead of 1, and also is a free, decent flying body in the graveyard that gets reanimated with LE.
Interested to hear of others thoughts/experiences with these spice cards.
I have seen talk lately about the Pelt Collector combo with Vexing Devil. Is there space in stompy for a red splash for devil and possibly bolt instead of dismember?? A hyper-aggro build could also include my previous suggestion of Groundbreaker.
Straying even further from traditional stompy (apologies if this is the wrong forum) is a temur build with 12 evolvers jn the form of Cloudfin Raptor.
Possibly could run 1, but it seems like it would only be a very corner case when it gets used, and to be honest if your 1/1s stay as 1/1s for more than a turn or two your probably losing that game anyway. Plus you expose yourself to one of death and taxes main plays - blowing up a nonbasic land with Leonin Arbiter in play.
If you really want to upgrade your mana base Horizon Canopy is probably your best bet. It's not a budget option, however it does have applications in many other modern archetypes.
I run 4 morpohse, 4 visions, 4 opt, 4 sleight and 4 thought scour. I'm thinking either scour or sleight could be cut.. Visions & morphose are our best cantrips. Opt is close to an instant speed sleight of hand. Scour is the weakest cantrip but it has the most synergy with mission briefing & ascension. Sleight gives us card selection where scour doesn't, but it also has the least synergy with mission briefing. So I guess it boils down to is the synergy between scour/briefing more beneficial for us then the card selection gained from sleight? I'm currently thinking yes, but will test both options out.
I think you are right about the manabase being an issue. 19 lands is possible but the problem with that solution is that we'd have to go to 3x something which slightly reduce the probability of getting ascension online. Plus I don't know if adding another land would fix the issue of needing to consistently hit UU plus RR plus W with 18 or 19 lands (without shocking yourself down to 12 life most games).
This might seem radical, but if mission briefing does turn out to be the real deal in this deck, would it be worth investigating other threats to replace bedlam reveler and avoid our RR mana issue?? Off the top of my head I am thinking of Myth Realizedor Jace, Vryn's Prodigy as potential options.
Regarding reveler, I've always felt that while its great a lot of the time as a finisher, there are also times when it sits in my hand for too long, waiting for me to empty my hand, then if I get to a point where I am ready to cast it, I'm probably going to win anyway. There is this underlying tension with it in this deck, because its a card that is best when you have an empty hand, being played in a deck full of cards that keep restocking your hand... Also, to me the horror synergy with titi is a bit 'cute' but not all that relevant as it normally comes down after titi has already flipped.
Also - the 'choose' wording gets around some graveyard hosers as you don't choose the card until the spell resolves, and even if they exile your whole graveyard you still have the chance to choose from the 2 cards you surveil
Mission Briefing UU
Instant (Rare)
Surveil 2, then choose an instant or sorcery card in your graveyard. You may cast that card this turn. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead.
Could this replace our worst cantrip? Seems better for us then snapcaster because a) its 2 instant triggers for titi not 1, b) it allows us to filter selected cards into the bin for pyromancer ascension, and c) it doesn't reduce the instant/sorcery count in the bin for reveller, it goes 1 for 1.
Worst case it doesn't do any of the above but still gives us reach with bolt/snap/bolt, path/snap/path etc
Picked this deck up after getting bored of UR Storm and hunting around on mtggoldfish for a new deck, a few of the 5-0 lists caught my eye. Really enjoying it so far, I am loving the mix of interaction, consistency, and the ability to just do some broken stuff when ascension is turned on.
I have a couple of questions. Apologies if they already have been discussed/answered before in this thread:
- T1 cantrips. Am I right in thinking the preferred order to play out cantrips is serum, sleight, opt, scour? Also in a goldfishing scenario is it correct to play a t1 cantrip with a thing in hand and only 2-3 other spells, or should you keep it in hand to flip thing earlier?
- Blood moon sideboard plan: What are peoples experience with this, is it any good? Kinda feels like we are a bad blood moon deck, as we can only ever get it out turn three at best and it doesnt synergise with our instant/sorcery plan. To my way of thinking, at least molten rain has the potential upsides of hitting two lands with ascension on/flipping thing/feeding reveller?
- Remand vs spell pierce/other counterspells. I personally am a big fan of spell pierce over remand. It is great to hold up t1 on the play if your opponent is on black to protect your ascension/thing from discard. Its also great against control to deploy a t3 threat and counter their counter. Can anyone explain why remand is the counterspell of choice in this deck? Is the cantrip really that relevant in a deck with 16-20 cantrips already?
Monastery mentor vs young pyromancer in SB. Is there a consensus? I’ve found pyromancer to be extremely strong so far, closing out quite a few post-SB games for me. If you can make pyromancer stick it generates so much value so quickly.
Regarding my build, I will probably find space for 2 surgicals and 1 EE in SB soon, this was just the build I started out with on a UR storm budget. I subbed 2 faithless lootings for 2 boros charm, from a suggestion a few pages back, and have been loving its versatility so far. Have used all three modes in relevant situations and adding that extra bit of reach has lead to some grindier post-SB wins where I just burn out the opponent without an activated ascension/thing.
This thread seems kinda dead but I am posting here mainly to get my thoughts down somewhere and would love some feedback if anyone is still playing around with BUG Shadow.
Have put in about 50 games on MTGO tourney practice lobby and so far sitting around a 55-60% winrate, which isn't excellent but also isn't too bad. I feel like there is still a lot to learn and a lot of improvement left in my play with the deck, and also I really really enjoy playing it, so I'm going to stick with it.
- No delve creatures. I ran 2 tasigur for awhile but ended up deciding he went against the traverse/goyf plan too much, which we are pretty all-in on, so replaced him with grim flayer. Have been very pleased so far. Grim is an excellent t2 play that has nice synergies with traverse/goyf and can pull you ahead quickly if left unchecked. Also the trample helps getting damage through chumps when you don't have access to temur battlerage.
- 3 basic lands. Initially ran a breeding pool over the island, and that still may be more correct I am not sure yet. However with the prevalence of FoR, path, and moon, I do like having access to the island. Feels good cracking a fetch for your forest and using traverse to get your other basics and play around a moon.
- 6 hand disruption spells. I think this is the right number. My very first build jammed in 4 thoughtseize, 3 IoK & 2 whispers of emrakul however I quickly discovered that was way too much and Iok can be a terrible topdeck. There is a huge difference between a t2 hymn to tourach (mark rosewater calls the greatest discard spell ever printed) and a t4, 5 or 6 whispers.
- No Liliana. This may be incorrect, however as Shaggy states above, her +1 hurts us badly, which means we will hardly ever ultimate, and if we need more removal I think we are just better off replacing her with better, more efficient spot removal.
- Shriekmaw in SB. Have been really impressed by this so far. Can be brought in as tutorable removal in matchups where you know it will be effective. Have been exploring other silver bullet tutor targets for traverse but haven't found many I like so far. I found scooze too mana intensive as I am often operating on 3 lands.
Anyway, would appreciate any suggestions or feedback
My question is about the possibility of an competitive esper build. Has this been tested much? My current build is a fairly stock UB list with a reworked mana base and the main change being 4 PtE replacing the 3 pushes & 1 murderous cut. I see three big upsides of Path that make it worth the splash - 1 it is a far cleaner removal hitting Gurmag, Primetime, Wurmcoil, Arclight etc. 2 - it provides another potential trigger for free Archive Trap. 3 - this one is small but it takes another basic land out of their deck, synergising well with FoR and my one-of Mind Funeral.
The only other change I've made to the maindeck is running 3 Extirpate over Surgicals as a concession to the more painful mana base.
The sideboard gets significant upgrades with Fragmentize as a simple and elegant answer to Leyline of Sanctity, RiP as the best graveyard hate in modern, as well as other great options such as Stony, the new uncounterable Negate - Dovin's Veto, and possibly our own Leyline of Sancititys if burn is an issue in your meta.
Anyway, would love to hear what people think about the potential of a competitive esper mill deck in modern.
Finale of Promise
XRR
Sorcery
You may cast up to one target instant card and/or up to one target sorcery card from your graveyard each with converted mana cost X or less without paying their mana costs. If a card cast this way would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead. If X is 10 or more, copy each of those spells twice. You may choose new targets for the copies.
T1: Swiftspear -> 19
T2: Bolt + Spike, pumping Swiftspear +2/+2 -> 10
T3: Finale X=1, targeting Bolt and Spike, pumping Swiftspear +3/+3 -> 0
Is this not at the very least testable? Possibly in spell-heavy Mono R build?
Some spice I am currently trialing is 1 Drift of Phantasms as an AF tutor, as well as being able to get detention sphere/stifle bird in a pinch. It came about after several games without seeing AF. Not too sold on it yet tbh, but will stick with it for a while yet and see what I think.
Also trying 3 Faerie Macabre as my SB gy hate instead of RiP/surgical. This one I am really liking. Its virtually uncounterable, grabs 2 cards (those pesky phoenixes) instead of 1, and also is a free, decent flying body in the graveyard that gets reanimated with LE.
Interested to hear of others thoughts/experiences with these spice cards.
Straying even further from traditional stompy (apologies if this is the wrong forum) is a temur build with 12 evolvers jn the form of Cloudfin Raptor.
Thoughts?
If you really want to upgrade your mana base Horizon Canopy is probably your best bet. It's not a budget option, however it does have applications in many other modern archetypes.
18x Forest
1x Hashep Oasis
2x Treetop Village
Creatures
4x Pelt Collector
4x Experiment One
3x Dryad Militant
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Avatar of the Resolute
4x Strangleroot Geist
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
3x Groundbreaker
4x Steel Leaf Champion
4x Aspect of Hydra
4x Vines of Vastwood
2x Dismember
3x Natural State
3x Shapers' Sanctuary
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Feed the Clan
3x Damping Sphere
1x Beast Within
1x Chamelon Colossus
1x Obstinate Baloth
I think you are right about the manabase being an issue. 19 lands is possible but the problem with that solution is that we'd have to go to 3x something which slightly reduce the probability of getting ascension online. Plus I don't know if adding another land would fix the issue of needing to consistently hit UU plus RR plus W with 18 or 19 lands (without shocking yourself down to 12 life most games).
This might seem radical, but if mission briefing does turn out to be the real deal in this deck, would it be worth investigating other threats to replace bedlam reveler and avoid our RR mana issue?? Off the top of my head I am thinking of Myth Realizedor Jace, Vryn's Prodigy as potential options.
Regarding reveler, I've always felt that while its great a lot of the time as a finisher, there are also times when it sits in my hand for too long, waiting for me to empty my hand, then if I get to a point where I am ready to cast it, I'm probably going to win anyway. There is this underlying tension with it in this deck, because its a card that is best when you have an empty hand, being played in a deck full of cards that keep restocking your hand... Also, to me the horror synergy with titi is a bit 'cute' but not all that relevant as it normally comes down after titi has already flipped.
Anyway, food for thought...
Mission Briefing UU
Instant (Rare)
Surveil 2, then choose an instant or sorcery card in your graveyard. You may cast that card this turn. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead.
Could this replace our worst cantrip? Seems better for us then snapcaster because a) its 2 instant triggers for titi not 1, b) it allows us to filter selected cards into the bin for pyromancer ascension, and c) it doesn't reduce the instant/sorcery count in the bin for reveller, it goes 1 for 1.
Worst case it doesn't do any of the above but still gives us reach with bolt/snap/bolt, path/snap/path etc
I have a couple of questions. Apologies if they already have been discussed/answered before in this thread:
- T1 cantrips. Am I right in thinking the preferred order to play out cantrips is serum, sleight, opt, scour? Also in a goldfishing scenario is it correct to play a t1 cantrip with a thing in hand and only 2-3 other spells, or should you keep it in hand to flip thing earlier?
- Blood moon sideboard plan: What are peoples experience with this, is it any good? Kinda feels like we are a bad blood moon deck, as we can only ever get it out turn three at best and it doesnt synergise with our instant/sorcery plan. To my way of thinking, at least molten rain has the potential upsides of hitting two lands with ascension on/flipping thing/feeding reveller?
- Remand vs spell pierce/other counterspells. I personally am a big fan of spell pierce over remand. It is great to hold up t1 on the play if your opponent is on black to protect your ascension/thing from discard. Its also great against control to deploy a t3 threat and counter their counter. Can anyone explain why remand is the counterspell of choice in this deck? Is the cantrip really that relevant in a deck with 16-20 cantrips already?
Monastery mentor vs young pyromancer in SB. Is there a consensus? I’ve found pyromancer to be extremely strong so far, closing out quite a few post-SB games for me. If you can make pyromancer stick it generates so much value so quickly.
Here is my current decklist for reference - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1258233#online
Regarding my build, I will probably find space for 2 surgicals and 1 EE in SB soon, this was just the build I started out with on a UR storm budget. I subbed 2 faithless lootings for 2 boros charm, from a suggestion a few pages back, and have been loving its versatility so far. Have used all three modes in relevant situations and adding that extra bit of reach has lead to some grindier post-SB wins where I just burn out the opponent without an activated ascension/thing.
Have put in about 50 games on MTGO tourney practice lobby and so far sitting around a 55-60% winrate, which isn't excellent but also isn't too bad. I feel like there is still a lot to learn and a lot of improvement left in my play with the deck, and also I really really enjoy playing it, so I'm going to stick with it.
This is my current build:
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
Creatures
4x Death's Shadow
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Grim Flayer
4x Street Wraith
3x Stubborn Denial
4x Thought Scour
4x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
Sorceries
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
Artifacts
4x Mishra's Bauble
1x Shriekmaw
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Disdainful Stroke
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Golgari Charm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Ghost Quarter
Comments on my build:
- No delve creatures. I ran 2 tasigur for awhile but ended up deciding he went against the traverse/goyf plan too much, which we are pretty all-in on, so replaced him with grim flayer. Have been very pleased so far. Grim is an excellent t2 play that has nice synergies with traverse/goyf and can pull you ahead quickly if left unchecked. Also the trample helps getting damage through chumps when you don't have access to temur battlerage.
- 3 basic lands. Initially ran a breeding pool over the island, and that still may be more correct I am not sure yet. However with the prevalence of FoR, path, and moon, I do like having access to the island. Feels good cracking a fetch for your forest and using traverse to get your other basics and play around a moon.
- 6 hand disruption spells. I think this is the right number. My very first build jammed in 4 thoughtseize, 3 IoK & 2 whispers of emrakul however I quickly discovered that was way too much and Iok can be a terrible topdeck. There is a huge difference between a t2 hymn to tourach (mark rosewater calls the greatest discard spell ever printed) and a t4, 5 or 6 whispers.
- No Liliana. This may be incorrect, however as Shaggy states above, her +1 hurts us badly, which means we will hardly ever ultimate, and if we need more removal I think we are just better off replacing her with better, more efficient spot removal.
- Shriekmaw in SB. Have been really impressed by this so far. Can be brought in as tutorable removal in matchups where you know it will be effective. Have been exploring other silver bullet tutor targets for traverse but haven't found many I like so far. I found scooze too mana intensive as I am often operating on 3 lands.
Anyway, would appreciate any suggestions or feedback