i stopped to play the deck for now. I was something like 32-18 on friendly leagues and 12-9 on competitive leagues which is fine but not impressive and obviously not have london mulligan is a miss. The deck is really hard to side board and play in fair matchs.
I probably go back to it if phoenix stays top 1 but i prefear play rock against dredge and tron.
torpor orb seems better than tocatli for me by the way.
I think Dredge is not a so good reason to play leyline overs an other graveyard hate, leyline is the more efficient but the easiest to destroy with claim/trophy when with the other graveyard hate you have time to discard before or find a good setup. It's not a gg if you have leyline in hand.
Anyon have a theory of why Jund was (maybe) a good choice again ? (i assume that with the PT)
@tempest753 i sadly see these data about rock winrate, it's why i test other decks now :'(.
Aha Gerry Thompson is probably right exception is burn. I never try death shadow, maybe Reid Duke show us the way.
@redtwister
to be an old BGX player, rest in peace is good against BGX if you fear the goyf and i think it's the case with that deck so board in the rest in peace is very good. For the others decks, storm, hollow one and living end are good match-ups i think (thalia and chalice are insane here) so imo they aren't a good justification to bring more rest in peace, i think we will play against more humans than these 3 decks by example. Against whir rip only interacts with academy ruins and crucible of worlds if i am correct and these are not great against us (we need to destroy bridge only during one turn to win i guess). Agree scales is a bigger justification to play rest in peace but i will probably prefear a good card against scales and better than rest in peace against humans. My first impression is dredge and graveyard decks are better matchs-up than humans (and others creatures decks like that) if i am wrong about that, i could understand more rip.
About tocatli, displacer justification is not very good because torpor orb protects itself from all creatures removal and by example against decks as humans, spirits or any hatebears you are sure to keep it until end of game. torpor orb is worst if opponent bring non-creatures artifact (so if chalice is good, if not they won't bring artifact hate). Be a creature for combat step is half of justification when he blocks only grizzly and out deck is a pile good boyz in combat step.
I guess it depends on how are the match-up where stone is good. For spirits it's quite strange because tron and hardened scales are very bad match-up for them.
With our deck, my feeling about these matchs are :
tron , good match-up.
hardened scales, close.
affinity, slightly unfavourable.
whir prison, catastrophic.
And i agree stony silence is not great against whir prison. That process is totally fair and relevant for me.
Do you think rest in peace is so needed ? dredge is bad but phoenix is very good. By the way hardened scales is maybe a very good match-up post side with rest in peace and othet stuff T_T.
An other point i asked before why not torpor orb over tocatli honour guard ?
Actually, i am 15-10 on friendly leagues, i am pretty happy of that score when i face 50% of times average tiers 2 decks (2 merfolks, 1 ponza, 1 esper control with ashiok, 1 red prison...)
My side now is :
3 torpor orb
2 worship
1 cataclysmic gearhulk
1 declaration in stone
1 cast out
2 ratchet bomb
2 stony silence
2 rest in peace
1 phyrexian revoker
I try to respect as much as i can humans match-up.
I will probably do more friendly leagues before go in more compet events, the deck is harder to play as i expect (few decisions in the first turns are very very hard).
How is dredge match-up in general ?
I just played against one, he crushs me on the first. I success to thalia v1 turn 1 the 2 post side board games to win but very close win.
Path to exil too, just not lingering souls.
Yes i have to respect whir, affinity, tron and hardened scales a lot even if whir and tron are 55/60 good mu it's not easy.
Stony is not gg against whir but just shut down welding jar and spellskite is enough to win in the turn.
Indeed, maybe BG with 3 artifacts hate slot is enough, the "easy" way is splash white ! Something as 2 creeping corrosion and at least one maelstrom pulse or one deglamer is enough ?
Lingering souls is average, 2 or 3 in the 75 are ok but it's not the car i want to play.
path to exil is really great now, all top decks plays creatures of different size (primeval titan, mantis rider, champion of paris, thing in the ice, death shadow, gurmag angler) and some creatures are graveyard dependant obviously, i think now path to exil is good not better than assassin's trophy but good.
I don't have the same feeling as you about mox opal deck, affinity, hardened scales and whir are quite popular in Europe or in France at least and tron is always very popular.
I think nihil spellbomb and surgical extraction are enough, ooze and tarmogoyf are too smash by rip and rip is weak against nature's claim.
About the manabase yes obviously agree, but the strenght to have a painless manabase matters a lot against burn and burn rising down, it's why i think the comeback to a 3 colours BGX even with just a splash is authorized. By the way, i will try to keep that 4 field of ruin even if i have to play 243 fetchs or a 25th land, if i can't i will stay on BG.
@tempest : obviously i just asking to order my next modification. By the way tireless tracker >>> all turn 10 so i don't really care of this moment of the game
@DeFish : i talk about vraska MD not in SB, my bad missreading.
I don't ask you to convince me, just to give me your thoughts about her.
By the way, i forced myself to play rock some months ago when i think the deck was worst than jund, try thing when i disagree it's exatcly, imo, the best reason to test it.
@tempest753 : ok as defish says "she really does exactly what she looks like she'll do".
I guess LotV >>> vraska ? (question because i play only 3 LotV)
@tempest753 : i can only agree with that, "vraska improve consistency" sure but it's a turn 4... that's my problem x).
If you can show me the match-up where she is really good and why, maybe i will test it.
@Spsiegel1987 : nissa, vital force seems only great in mirror. Control have a bunch of counterspells and i don't see how it can be good against death shadow.
I am on 4 dark confidant and 3 tireless tracker but not sure at all about that.
I guess if i change my midrange deck i will go on grixis death shadow ...
But actually i play kind of hatebears deck, back to my first love.
@tempest753 : probably, i play rock more "aggressively" than jund. But to be honest i see just few scenario cases where vraska is great, maybe i miss some of them. By the way i don't even play the 4th LotV, i guess i have to convince myself about LotV before vraska ><
@tempest : flood is a problem when you are in lategame, it's not really the current modern. By the way tracker is already here to solve flooding problem. For me it's totally a false problem now.
@defish : vraska is good against 2 decks, not impressive ^^
I probably don't have good reason to change any slots in Spiderspace's decklist but i wan to appropriate my deck a little instead of copy paste something.
Round 1 : FrenzAffinity 2-1
Fun fact : i shuffle, count my cards before give my list and oh..... a card missing. Is it one of the masterpice chalice of the void which are NOT mine. No. Nice. Wait where is my 4th horizon canopy ? Hopefully my nice opponent give one of his horizon canopy for the tournament, at least i didn't play 7 plains.
G1 : 10 infects counter t3 sure.
G2&G3 : i success to resolve and keep a displacer alive, first time by TKS the blast before and next time by chalice of the void and my opponent forgot he don't have metalcraft when he casts a blast before my chalice.
Round 2 : BW Eldrazi&Taxes 2-1
G1 : my hand did fast thalia or chalice but it not works here.
G2 : i play smasher turn 3 and turn 4, instead of path to exil one he played his TKS instead, bad idea.
G3 : i did a lucky missplay by playing TKS before chalice and i take his gideon, ally of zendikar then chalice into displacer/big thalia gives me the win.
Round 3 : UW Control 0-2
G1 : i play thalia, into arbiter into big thalia, he terminus me with azacanta just after i played big thalia, sad.
G2 : spell snare against my chalice was hard, then he counters my next 3 creatures.
Round 4 : Jund hollow one 1-2
G1 : chalice turn 1 then i chumpblock with my TKS and resolve smasher for blocking better his tasigur
G2&G3 : my opponent had a very strange sideboard with scavenging ooze, assassin's trophy, abrupt decay, chandra torch of defiance, tireless tracker and maelstrom pulse.
Round 5 : UR Storm 2-0
G1 : he fizzles
G2 : he mull 5 against t1 thalia v1 and smasher turn 3
Round 6 : G Tron 1-2
G1 : turn 1 chalice into smasher turn 2 and after big thalia.
G2&G3 : he "tron" me turn 3 but both times i think i keep complicated starting hands.
after some discussions i would probably mulligan both hands.
OTD : 1 eldrazi temple 1 plains 2 thalia v1 1 leonin arbiter 1 reality smasher 1 thalia v2
OTP : 2 eldrazi temple 1 simian spirit guide 1 thalia v1 1 leonin arbiter 1 thalia v2 1 reality smasher (for these one because i count 26 relevant draws in my deck (12 white sources, 4 GQ, 4 TKS, 4 chalice and 2 warping wail)
Round 7 : Red Phoenix 2-0
G1 : chalice turn 1
G2 : reality smasher is a good blocker then i resolve worship and warping wail save my life when he double anger of gods me to destroy all my board.
Intersting choice in that g2, my hand was 1 horizon canopy 1 eldrazi temple 1 gemstone cavern 1 declaration in stone 1 rest in peace 1 eldrazi displacer 1 reality smasher, what do you pitch on gemstone cavern ? I exile the declaration but not sure at all about it.
Well, the short conclusion is the deck convinced enough to buy in on mtgo and life is very hard against decks you don'ty expect too much.
I hope to coming back soon for more feedback after some leagues !
I will try to update my sideboard guide too.
Any critic and comment is appreciated.
@redtwister : obviously agree with your post, i just think it's a too "simple" justification a large part of the time but it matters for sure.
Edit : is settle the wreackage not an option when creatures aggro decks is our worst match-up ?
And i don't understand why tocatli honour guard over torpor orb.
i stopped to play the deck for now. I was something like 32-18 on friendly leagues and 12-9 on competitive leagues which is fine but not impressive and obviously not have london mulligan is a miss. The deck is really hard to side board and play in fair matchs.
I probably go back to it if phoenix stays top 1 but i prefear play rock against dredge and tron.
torpor orb seems better than tocatli for me by the way.
Anyon have a theory of why Jund was (maybe) a good choice again ? (i assume that with the PT)
Aha Gerry Thompson is probably right exception is burn. I never try death shadow, maybe Reid Duke show us the way.
to be an old BGX player, rest in peace is good against BGX if you fear the goyf and i think it's the case with that deck so board in the rest in peace is very good. For the others decks, storm, hollow one and living end are good match-ups i think (thalia and chalice are insane here) so imo they aren't a good justification to bring more rest in peace, i think we will play against more humans than these 3 decks by example. Against whir rip only interacts with academy ruins and crucible of worlds if i am correct and these are not great against us (we need to destroy bridge only during one turn to win i guess). Agree scales is a bigger justification to play rest in peace but i will probably prefear a good card against scales and better than rest in peace against humans. My first impression is dredge and graveyard decks are better matchs-up than humans (and others creatures decks like that) if i am wrong about that, i could understand more rip.
About tocatli, displacer justification is not very good because torpor orb protects itself from all creatures removal and by example against decks as humans, spirits or any hatebears you are sure to keep it until end of game. torpor orb is worst if opponent bring non-creatures artifact (so if chalice is good, if not they won't bring artifact hate). Be a creature for combat step is half of justification when he blocks only grizzly and out deck is a pile good boyz in combat step.
With our deck, my feeling about these matchs are :
tron , good match-up.
hardened scales, close.
affinity, slightly unfavourable.
whir prison, catastrophic.
And i agree stony silence is not great against whir prison. That process is totally fair and relevant for me.
Do you think rest in peace is so needed ? dredge is bad but phoenix is very good. By the way hardened scales is maybe a very good match-up post side with rest in peace and othet stuff T_T.
An other point i asked before why not torpor orb over tocatli honour guard ?
My side now is :
3 torpor orb
2 worship
1 cataclysmic gearhulk
1 declaration in stone
1 cast out
2 ratchet bomb
2 stony silence
2 rest in peace
1 phyrexian revoker
I try to respect as much as i can humans match-up.
I will probably do more friendly leagues before go in more compet events, the deck is harder to play as i expect (few decisions in the first turns are very very hard).
How is dredge match-up in general ?
I just played against one, he crushs me on the first. I success to thalia v1 turn 1 the 2 post side board games to win but very close win.
Yes i have to respect whir, affinity, tron and hardened scales a lot even if whir and tron are 55/60 good mu it's not easy.
Stony is not gg against whir but just shut down welding jar and spellskite is enough to win in the turn.
Indeed, maybe BG with 3 artifacts hate slot is enough, the "easy" way is splash white
path to exil is really great now, all top decks plays creatures of different size (primeval titan, mantis rider, champion of paris, thing in the ice, death shadow, gurmag angler) and some creatures are graveyard dependant obviously, i think now path to exil is good not better than assassin's trophy but good.
I don't have the same feeling as you about mox opal deck, affinity, hardened scales and whir are quite popular in Europe or in France at least and tron is always very popular.
I think nihil spellbomb and surgical extraction are enough, ooze and tarmogoyf are too smash by rip and rip is weak against nature's claim.
About the manabase yes obviously agree, but the strenght to have a painless manabase matters a lot against burn and burn rising down, it's why i think the comeback to a 3 colours BGX even with just a splash is authorized. By the way, i will try to keep that 4 field of ruin even if i have to play 243 fetchs or a 25th land, if i can't i will stay on BG.
maybe you see my post about rock splashing white on facebook Rock page. I have s serious question.
What are you reasons to don't play abzan ? I am asking that to myself too.
I don't ask you to convince me, just to give me your thoughts about her.
By the way, i forced myself to play rock some months ago when i think the deck was worst than jund, try thing when i disagree it's exatcly, imo, the best reason to test it.
@tempest753 : ok as defish says "she really does exactly what she looks like she'll do".
I guess LotV >>> vraska ? (question because i play only 3 LotV)
If you can show me the match-up where she is really good and why, maybe i will test it.
I am on 4 dark confidant and 3 tireless tracker but not sure at all about that.
I guess if i change my midrange deck i will go on grixis death shadow
But actually i play kind of hatebears deck, back to my first love.
@tempest753 : probably, i play rock more "aggressively" than jund. But to be honest i see just few scenario cases where vraska is great, maybe i miss some of them. By the way i don't even play the 4th LotV, i guess i have to convince myself about LotV before vraska ><
@defish : vraska is good against 2 decks, not impressive ^^
i played a 70 people modern tournament with REL competitive but cool people and fair magic were here.
The list for reference (it didn't change since the previous page)
4 leonin arbiter
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 eldrazi displacer
3 thalia, heretic cathar
4 thought knot seer
4 reality smasher
13 Spells :
3 dismember
2 warping wail
4 chalice of the void
4 simian spirit guide
4 horizon canopy
4 gemstone caverns
2 shefet dunes
6 plains
4 ghost quarter
4 eldrazi temple
3 tocatli honour guard
2 worship
1 consulate crackdown
1 declaration in stone
1 cast out
1 ratchet bomb
2 stony silence
2 rest in peace
1 kitchen finsk
1 aven mindcensor
I probably don't have good reason to change any slots in Spiderspace's decklist but i wan to appropriate my deck a little instead of copy paste something.
Round 1 : FrenzAffinity 2-1
Fun fact : i shuffle, count my cards before give my list and oh..... a card missing. Is it one of the masterpice chalice of the void which are NOT mine. No. Nice. Wait where is my 4th horizon canopy
G1 : 10 infects counter t3 sure.
G2&G3 : i success to resolve and keep a displacer alive, first time by TKS the blast before and next time by chalice of the void and my opponent forgot he don't have metalcraft when he casts a blast before my chalice.
Round 2 : BW Eldrazi&Taxes 2-1
G1 : my hand did fast thalia or chalice but it not works here.
G2 : i play smasher turn 3 and turn 4, instead of path to exil one he played his TKS instead, bad idea.
G3 : i did a lucky missplay by playing TKS before chalice and i take his gideon, ally of zendikar then chalice into displacer/big thalia gives me the win.
Round 3 : UW Control 0-2
G1 : i play thalia, into arbiter into big thalia, he terminus me with azacanta just after i played big thalia, sad.
G2 : spell snare against my chalice was hard, then he counters my next 3 creatures.
Round 4 : Jund hollow one 1-2
G1 : chalice turn 1 then i chumpblock with my TKS and resolve smasher for blocking better his tasigur
G2&G3 : my opponent had a very strange sideboard with scavenging ooze, assassin's trophy, abrupt decay, chandra torch of defiance, tireless tracker and maelstrom pulse.
Round 5 : UR Storm 2-0
G1 : he fizzles
G2 : he mull 5 against t1 thalia v1 and smasher turn 3
Round 6 : G Tron 1-2
G1 : turn 1 chalice into smasher turn 2 and after big thalia.
G2&G3 : he "tron" me turn 3 but both times i think i keep complicated starting hands.
after some discussions i would probably mulligan both hands.
OTD : 1 eldrazi temple 1 plains 2 thalia v1 1 leonin arbiter 1 reality smasher 1 thalia v2
OTP : 2 eldrazi temple 1 simian spirit guide 1 thalia v1 1 leonin arbiter 1 thalia v2 1 reality smasher (for these one because i count 26 relevant draws in my deck (12 white sources, 4 GQ, 4 TKS, 4 chalice and 2 warping wail)
Round 7 : Red Phoenix 2-0
G1 : chalice turn 1
G2 : reality smasher is a good blocker then i resolve worship and warping wail save my life when he double anger of gods me to destroy all my board.
Intersting choice in that g2, my hand was 1 horizon canopy 1 eldrazi temple 1 gemstone cavern 1 declaration in stone 1 rest in peace 1 eldrazi displacer 1 reality smasher, what do you pitch on gemstone cavern ? I exile the declaration but not sure at all about it.
Well, the short conclusion is the deck convinced enough to buy in on mtgo and life is very hard against decks you don'ty expect too much.
I hope to coming back soon for more feedback after some leagues !
I will try to update my sideboard guide too.
Any critic and comment is appreciated.
@redtwister : obviously agree with your post, i just think it's a too "simple" justification a large part of the time but it matters for sure.
Edit : is settle the wreackage not an option when creatures aggro decks is our worst match-up ?
And i don't understand why tocatli honour guard over torpor orb.