Ant the combo will now be deterministic. Mill everything, get 4 narcos, dread return Sharuum, get Desecrated Tomb, mill Dread or Guile 20 times, get 20 Bats with Haste thanks to Anger, attack for the win. Unburial Rites is there as a protection measure for the Dread Return, same with Sun Titan
If you add 4x Ancient Tomb and 1x of Mountain and 1x Plain (dual most likely) the rest of the deck is completely free to explore. You could go basically all out on search and counterspells with:
Force of Will
Spell Pierce
Brainstorm
Careful Study (To remove graveyard things from hand)
Ponder
And even add 4x Fragmentize in the SB which basically deals with most permanent forms of graveyard hate. You can also easily splash anything that is Blue, Red, White and Black, which will also allow you to cast Unburial Rites from hand.
Maybe that will be a new deck and not Four Horseman, but it is a cool new idea anyway. I call it Four Batman!
8 Combo finish
4x Dread Return
3x Whirlpool Rider
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4 General Protection
4x Cabal Therapy
Cards witch will be Main deck or in the side but will be present :
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Force of Will
Cards witch will be in the side :
4x Disrupting Shoal
2 x Mindbreak Trap
Cards witch can be found in the Sideboard:
3rd-4th Mindbreak Trap
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Ashen Rider
1-3x Vengeful Pharaoh
0-4x Contagion
Cards witch can be found main deck (in the last 6 cards) but not in the sideboard :
3rd-4th Shambling Shell
4th Whirlpool Rider
Hi Semoreh, thanks for sharing your list and thoughts!
So, about the Balustrade Spy, I think it's just a matter of preference. Some people like the combo to be the main win condition (so 4 copies makes it more likely) while others think of it as a secondary win condition, so 2 copies is enough, sometimes only 1. I have tried both and I think it really is a matter of meta and personal preference. If your meta is very fast, the combo allows you to win on the spot, if your meta is slower and has more answers, you might want those Balustrade Spies to be Force of Wills or some other defense cards.
The baubles are not bad, but I do think they are not necessary. You need 4x for a chance that they are in your opening hand and even so, you can't cast them on the first turn, you will most likely only be able to reap the benefits on your opponents third turn at best. i'm testing them, but most professional manaless dredge players have already accepted that you can live without.
As for my SB, first the Flame-Kin Zealot comes and goes from MB to SB, I can never decide. I like having both on the MB as sometimes it's easier to win with one or the other. In old times, Flame-Kin Zealot was the preferred win-con but I have such hatred for Ensnaring Bridge that I like to have outs in MB =P Just a pet-peeve.
The Noxious Revivals I'll send you to an article I read written by the genius of Manaless Dredge, Michael Keller (https://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52180/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-dredge-in-legacy). I think his current views are no longer in favor of the card, but as I said, my SB is just a generic one and since Noxious can also serve as a reanimator answer like Faerie Macabre, I think it is not a bad card to try.
The Sickening Shoals are there for all the critters we will find that are annoying, and I think it is better than Contagion. Things like Containment Priest and sometimes even a big reanimator (as the Phantasmagoria can deal with a Griselbrand).
Mindbreak Trap for anything Storm/Ant/Belcher, as those are other non-interactive decks that are as fast as Manaless.
Leyline is also an excellent choice if your meta is full of burn and discard (and ANT/Belcher/Storm too!) (sadly, I sold mine a long time ago as I never expected them to spike so much, so now I don't fell like paying for it again =P)
Ashen Rider (and Progenitus when I have one) are for Show And Tell. Ashen is also a good Dread Return target all around.
I think the current primer is in favor of having some form of answer to reanimator (usually Faerie) plus Force of Will and Whirlpool Rider in MB, removing the Balustrade Combo, probe and most, if not all, Shambling Shells. Chancellor is contentious, some like it, some prefer just FOW. There has also been talks about 1x Vengeful Pharaoh somewhere in the 75, which I think is a cool thing to try!
My personal preference is to not run FOW, I like to be the absolute glass cannon, I'm just a Johnny, not a Spike hehehe.
All in all, the best thing about manaless dredge is that the community is again talking about it, and the more versions we have the better!
I think we can very much survive the probe banning. If you absolute must have it, the probable best substitute is one of the Baubles, Mishra or Urza's.
The version I'm using has a generic sideboard as the metagame here is always changing. Also, Legacy Weapon is my poor man's version of Progenitus =P
We can have a package of something like:
Combo (20 cards)
Battlefield:
4x Basalt Monolith
4x Mesmeric Orb
Graveyard:
4x Narcomoeba
1x Anger
1x Desecrated Tomb
1x Dread
1x Dread Return
1x Guile
1x Sharuum the Hegemon
1x Unburial Rites
1x Sun Titan
Ant the combo will now be deterministic. Mill everything, get 4 narcos, dread return Sharuum, get Desecrated Tomb, mill Dread or Guile 20 times, get 20 Bats with Haste thanks to Anger, attack for the win. Unburial Rites is there as a protection measure for the Dread Return, same with Sun Titan
If you add 4x Ancient Tomb and 1x of Mountain and 1x Plain (dual most likely) the rest of the deck is completely free to explore. You could go basically all out on search and counterspells with:
Force of Will
Spell Pierce
Brainstorm
Careful Study (To remove graveyard things from hand)
Ponder
And even add 4x Fragmentize in the SB which basically deals with most permanent forms of graveyard hate. You can also easily splash anything that is Blue, Red, White and Black, which will also allow you to cast Unburial Rites from hand.
Maybe that will be a new deck and not Four Horseman, but it is a cool new idea anyway. I call it Four Batman!
54/ 60 Main deck :
14 Dredgers
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Shambling Shell
8 Explosive Starts
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
20 Free Creatures
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Bridge from Below
8 Combo finish
4x Dread Return
3x Whirlpool Rider
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4 General Protection
4x Cabal Therapy
Cards witch will be Main deck or in the side but will be present :
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Force of Will
Cards witch will be in the side :
4x Disrupting Shoal
2 x Mindbreak Trap
Cards witch can be found in the Sideboard:
3rd-4th Mindbreak Trap
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Ashen Rider
1-3x Vengeful Pharaoh
0-4x Contagion
Cards witch can be found main deck (in the last 6 cards) but not in the sideboard :
3rd-4th Shambling Shell
4th Whirlpool Rider
So, about the Balustrade Spy, I think it's just a matter of preference. Some people like the combo to be the main win condition (so 4 copies makes it more likely) while others think of it as a secondary win condition, so 2 copies is enough, sometimes only 1. I have tried both and I think it really is a matter of meta and personal preference. If your meta is very fast, the combo allows you to win on the spot, if your meta is slower and has more answers, you might want those Balustrade Spies to be Force of Wills or some other defense cards.
The baubles are not bad, but I do think they are not necessary. You need 4x for a chance that they are in your opening hand and even so, you can't cast them on the first turn, you will most likely only be able to reap the benefits on your opponents third turn at best. i'm testing them, but most professional manaless dredge players have already accepted that you can live without.
As for my SB, first the Flame-Kin Zealot comes and goes from MB to SB, I can never decide. I like having both on the MB as sometimes it's easier to win with one or the other. In old times, Flame-Kin Zealot was the preferred win-con but I have such hatred for Ensnaring Bridge that I like to have outs in MB =P Just a pet-peeve.
The Noxious Revivals I'll send you to an article I read written by the genius of Manaless Dredge, Michael Keller (https://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52180/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-dredge-in-legacy). I think his current views are no longer in favor of the card, but as I said, my SB is just a generic one and since Noxious can also serve as a reanimator answer like Faerie Macabre, I think it is not a bad card to try.
The Sickening Shoals are there for all the critters we will find that are annoying, and I think it is better than Contagion. Things like Containment Priest and sometimes even a big reanimator (as the Phantasmagoria can deal with a Griselbrand).
Mindbreak Trap for anything Storm/Ant/Belcher, as those are other non-interactive decks that are as fast as Manaless.
Leyline is also an excellent choice if your meta is full of burn and discard (and ANT/Belcher/Storm too!) (sadly, I sold mine a long time ago as I never expected them to spike so much, so now I don't fell like paying for it again =P)
Ashen Rider (and Progenitus when I have one) are for Show And Tell. Ashen is also a good Dread Return target all around.
I think the current primer is in favor of having some form of answer to reanimator (usually Faerie) plus Force of Will and Whirlpool Rider in MB, removing the Balustrade Combo, probe and most, if not all, Shambling Shells. Chancellor is contentious, some like it, some prefer just FOW. There has also been talks about 1x Vengeful Pharaoh somewhere in the 75, which I think is a cool thing to try!
My personal preference is to not run FOW, I like to be the absolute glass cannon, I'm just a Johnny, not a Spike hehehe.
All in all, the best thing about manaless dredge is that the community is again talking about it, and the more versions we have the better!
Thanks for the tip about the Progenitus!
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Balustrade Spy
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Shambling Shell
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Ashen Rider
1 Legacy Weapon
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Noxious Revival
I think we can very much survive the probe banning. If you absolute must have it, the probable best substitute is one of the Baubles, Mishra or Urza's.
The version I'm using has a generic sideboard as the metagame here is always changing. Also, Legacy Weapon is my poor man's version of Progenitus =P