So, the idea was a Heartless Summoning Athreos deck with blue splash because Athreos, Kefnet, Thassa and Bontu all cost cc3 and it gives you some play if you can't play Heartless soon enough. (they are, wait for it, legendary, so i'd probably md 3 Collective Brutality)
Well. It's an idea. Theyre near impossible to kill because they're all indestructible. They can't be board wiped (by anything people play on the reg). You get that Heartless out and it gets annoying af.
Jace could very easily be Walking Ballista. 2 or 1 to pump for 1 damage.
I thought you'd have to 1: deal 1 damage - but the second ability doens't have a cost. I didn't realize this til I was using Jace's T: Dig ability and didn't have to pay 1.
Played online and 2-0ed Bant Spirits and Bant Eldrazi and was wrecked by Blood Moon in Green Land Destruction and didn't draw removal vs Zoo.
Thinking of putting The Scarab God in the side or out completely. Need more blue sources. Also thinking of -2 fetch for Swamp and Island and instead just Dragonskull Summit, a split with Drowned Catacombs or +1 Land for the wheel. (i like those better than the fast lands) but that may change with -2 Fetch.
Lavaclaw Reaches is funny as hell. We traded back and forth killing each others crea and then I swing with a Lavaclaw for 12 on 2 mana (w/2 Training Grounds)
I'm thinking of putting in 3 Anger of the Gods in the side for aggro creature decks. I have 2 Damnation but it's too slow. Maybe 2/1
Also, may work toward adding counterspells but the heavy RB in the CC's makes me think no.
I didn't draw into Liliana once.
Anyway, lots of testing to go but thought I'd share.
I tried this some time ago, playing with Training Grounds. Guildmages, the UR combo but it's a bunch of crap cards if you don't have Training Grounnds.
I'm just getting back into magic after moving to Montana, going through some lists and I saw Training Grounds and thought I'd try whipping something together.
Idea. I deck that isn't reliant on Training Grounds but takes it next level. We probably need another affect like it to make it good but the idea:
If we get Training Grounds early, we can go off but if not we wanna make it mid-
I've considered maybe Smallpox and a few discard plus creature removal. The removal is better since Gerry Thompson played it in '15. We've got Tasigur and The Scarab God so Stubborn Denial could work.
The thought of 4/4 base p/t Walking Ballista or Pack Rats shooting stuff down and making rats is too much. With (2) Training Grounds, its 1: Deal 1 dmg to whatever the hell you want.
I'm posting here because maybe someone will have insight and see something I'm not (besides we don't take kindly to TG decks). The idea of Scarab God recurring rats and ballista for UB was too much.
F*k. Forgot Serum Visions. I'll prob move Stubborn Denial and a swamp out and Thoughtseize to 1 for Visions.
Lol. I thought you were some jerkoff kid because you so quickly, without testing, decided it was going to fail. I've also been playing just about as long. Mostly collecting til Time ElementalStasisKismet.
And I don't goldfish. Ive been playing at Channelfireball, Anime and Gator for like 8-9 years. I also bought the deck so I could play it online.
How exactly is it a poorly tuned deck? I see a good curve, protection, countermagic, digging/draws, and MILL! You're running your mouth in a forum where we should be constructive to find a way to make these decks work. I've been testing this deck for months. Trying Lili's, Discard, Orbs, 3 surgical 3 extirpate, Tome Scour for a t1, Bridges, more creatures, no creatures and all this with peoples whose names you probably know.
Back and forth on VoB and Trapmaker's Snare. Can't play Ensnaring Bridge because I'm holding too many cards in hand. I don't like Tar Pit. Mesmeric side, I like to have 6 counterspells so rest are in sb. Snapcaster < Torpor Orb. Grafdiggers, Damping Sphere, more Crypt Incursions round out the rest.
Unrefined. lol
I'm going to log my games and record them here. We'll see.
In this forum, most people talk of 50% win-rate. I know I win a lot more than that.
You call it mish mash but really it's just more removal and counter magic. SURVIVABILITY! Crazy thought, lasting longer in games.
And how is it unfocused? It's very focused. I want 12 mill. 14 if Trapmaker's Snare. Ashiok alt-win. Removal for creatures, discard/counter magic for combo. Depending on meta - sideboard.
A control player can't win til after turn 12 in the best conditions. Can't attack with a Colonnade til turn 6, if you hit all your land drops and didnt eat a land (or one of yours gets eaten) assuming you're facing a dry hand otherwise a control player won't attack without counter backup.
Turn 5 I've already got my opp to 48 cards just from draws. Not takingn into account fetch or extra draws. Turn 1 Hedron (rep. 12 avg mill) puts opp at 36 by turn 5. Any Archives (free and fits in control players plan)... each one reduces that number by thirds (13, 26, 39). Glimps/Snap to seal the deal. GG.
The issue is - you're not coming from a place of experience or knowledge. Earliest mill deck was a control deck, and it won because it could survive.
EDIT:
FYI it's not an attach on you but it seems like someone said this is mill and this is the only way to play it and that's where your mind is at. I was playing mill for 2 cards a turn, sometimes 4, and winning. So when you say it's wishy washie mesh or whatever. No. Don't knock a deck til you play it.
How's that doing for mill players? Focusing on the one thing it does well? Or UB Control?
Jund is considered aggro but it plays like control. Before Bloodbraid it played 12ish creatures.
I think if people were to make a list and tweak it the way yall move an Orb or Crab or play Upnu over Drownyard something could stick.
Something needs to change. Or everyone can keep hoping Mirko gives us something in Ravinca3.
I'm working on UBg version for Decay and Pulse. Maybe Birds for t2 Fraying. Also gives us Nature's Claim.
Or UR for Pyromancer Ascension. Early self mill, Blood Moon, low CC spells, cantrips. But fewer answers so it needs to hit hard and fast. (Bluemoon Ascension with mill)
Haven't played a while and timing/order stuff is convoluted in my head.
I have some creatures and cast Yahenni's Expertise. Say I have a Golgari Charm in my hand and it's the free spell I wanna cast. Do I still have creatures that can be regenerated by the charm?
Lol. I mostly play UB Control Mill without Hedron Crab. And I haven't seen a Leyline in over a year. Smallpox isn't that bad when you play a set of Snapcaster Mage.
I guess if our meta had more burn, mill or 8 rack type decks people would but everything is so creature based or control.
Another idea -
How about Bontu's Last Reckoning? A lot of the top tier decks throw up their hand in the first few turns but not many have ways to fill their hands back up. Missing a turn doesn't seem so bad, especially if you Mesmeric Orb on 2. Eh. They'd maybe mill 3 of lands. 6 before your next turn.
Would consider Thoughseize over Inquisition because of Bontu (take out t4-5 threat) but maybe keep it to sb. Loss of life is real.
SB would consist of counterspells, Thoughtseize for combo, another Incusrion, grave hate.
Then, playing 4 Shriekmaw and 4 Mulldrifter hoping you get to reuse them.
Liliana the Last Hope to bring them back.
1 Erebos, God of the Dead and 2 Phenax to top them out. Phenax being the alt-win because youre playing a bunch of big butts for 1
The problem, devotion. Probably, I'd just go BW with U splash for evoke.
The other route is Mardu with Purphoros, God of the Forge and Mogis, God of Slaughter. Bridge from Below, possibly.
Or Junk with Athreos, Pharika,God of Affliction, Bontu, Rhonas the Indomitable, Nylea, God of the Hunt
Well. It's an idea. Theyre near impossible to kill because they're all indestructible. They can't be board wiped (by anything people play on the reg). You get that Heartless out and it gets annoying af.
Just throwing something out there.
1 Phyrexian Arena
3 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Keftnet
1 Thassa
2 Bontu
1 Erebos
1 Phenax
4 Mulldrifter
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Liliana the Last Hope
2 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Collective Brutality
Figure I'd lean heavier on black devotion. Maybe side in some Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
Anyway, it's an idea. You could play all the gods like humans but I'm sure that deck would suck. But the lands are there.
I thought you'd have to 1: deal 1 damage - but the second ability doens't have a cost. I didn't realize this til I was using Jace's T: Dig ability and didn't have to pay 1.
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
4 Pack Rat
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
2 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Serum Visions
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
3 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Island
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Collective Brutality
1 Olivia Voldaren
Played online and 2-0ed Bant Spirits and Bant Eldrazi and was wrecked by Blood Moon in Green Land Destruction and didn't draw removal vs Zoo.
Thinking of putting The Scarab God in the side or out completely. Need more blue sources. Also thinking of -2 fetch for Swamp and Island and instead just Dragonskull Summit, a split with Drowned Catacombs or +1 Land for the wheel. (i like those better than the fast lands) but that may change with -2 Fetch.
Lavaclaw Reaches is funny as hell. We traded back and forth killing each others crea and then I swing with a Lavaclaw for 12 on 2 mana (w/2 Training Grounds)
I'm thinking of putting in 3 Anger of the Gods in the side for aggro creature decks. I have 2 Damnation but it's too slow. Maybe 2/1
Also, may work toward adding counterspells but the heavy RB in the CC's makes me think no.
I didn't draw into Liliana once.
Anyway, lots of testing to go but thought I'd share.
John Grier UB Mill, 4th Place
4 Hedron Crab
4 Manic Scribe
Spells (30)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Archive Trap
2 Crypt Incursion
3 Fatal Push
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Visions of Beyond
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Collective Brutality
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Field of Ruin
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Shelldock Isle
2 Watery Grave
2 Dismember
2 Echoing Truth
1 Fatal Push
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Collective Brutality
2 Set Adrift
I'm just getting back into magic after moving to Montana, going through some lists and I saw Training Grounds and thought I'd try whipping something together.
Idea. I deck that isn't reliant on Training Grounds but takes it next level. We probably need another affect like it to make it good but the idea:
Training Grounds
If we get Training Grounds early, we can go off but if not we wanna make it mid-
I've considered maybe Smallpox and a few discard plus creature removal. The removal is better since Gerry Thompson played it in '15. We've got Tasigur and The Scarab God so Stubborn Denial could work.
The thought of 4/4 base p/t Walking Ballista or Pack Rats shooting stuff down and making rats is too much. With (2) Training Grounds, its 1: Deal 1 dmg to whatever the hell you want.
Serum Visions (over Opt to dig)
That rounds the spells. The deck (i just bought it on Cardhoarder so it's still untested)
4 Pack Rat
4 Walking Ballista
2 The Scarab God
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Fatal Push
4 Smallpox
1 Cast Down
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Stubborn Denail
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Drowned Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
1 Sunkin Ruins
3 Mutavault
3 Swamp
2 Island
I also buy extra stuff to test - Liliana of the Veil, Gurmag Angler, Bloodghast, Dimir Guildmage, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Collective Brutality, Cryptic Command, Remand, Logic Knot, Spell Snare, Murderous Cut but the above list will be my first go.
I'm posting here because maybe someone will have insight and see something I'm not (besides we don't take kindly to TG decks). The idea of Scarab God recurring rats and ballista for UB was too much.
F*k. Forgot Serum Visions. I'll prob move Stubborn Denial and a swamp out and Thoughtseize to 1 for Visions.
Obviously a meta call but just wondering if it's worked for others.
And I don't goldfish. Ive been playing at Channelfireball, Anime and Gator for like 8-9 years. I also bought the deck so I could play it online.
How exactly is it a poorly tuned deck? I see a good curve, protection, countermagic, digging/draws, and MILL! You're running your mouth in a forum where we should be constructive to find a way to make these decks work. I've been testing this deck for months. Trying Lili's, Discard, Orbs, 3 surgical 3 extirpate, Tome Scour for a t1, Bridges, more creatures, no creatures and all this with peoples whose names you probably know.
Where I'm at currently
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
4 Fatal Push
2 Cast Down
1 Dismember
1 Damnation
2 Spell Snare
2 Visions of Beyond
4 Serum Visions
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Crypt Incursion
23 Land
Back and forth on VoB and Trapmaker's Snare. Can't play Ensnaring Bridge because I'm holding too many cards in hand. I don't like Tar Pit. Mesmeric side, I like to have 6 counterspells so rest are in sb. Snapcaster < Torpor Orb. Grafdiggers, Damping Sphere, more Crypt Incursions round out the rest.
Unrefined. lol
I'm going to log my games and record them here. We'll see.
You call it mish mash but really it's just more removal and counter magic. SURVIVABILITY! Crazy thought, lasting longer in games.
And how is it unfocused? It's very focused. I want 12 mill. 14 if Trapmaker's Snare. Ashiok alt-win. Removal for creatures, discard/counter magic for combo. Depending on meta - sideboard.
A control player can't win til after turn 12 in the best conditions. Can't attack with a Colonnade til turn 6, if you hit all your land drops and didnt eat a land (or one of yours gets eaten) assuming you're facing a dry hand otherwise a control player won't attack without counter backup.
Turn 5 I've already got my opp to 48 cards just from draws. Not takingn into account fetch or extra draws. Turn 1 Hedron (rep. 12 avg mill) puts opp at 36 by turn 5. Any Archives (free and fits in control players plan)... each one reduces that number by thirds (13, 26, 39). Glimps/Snap to seal the deal. GG.
The issue is - you're not coming from a place of experience or knowledge. Earliest mill deck was a control deck, and it won because it could survive.
EDIT:
FYI it's not an attach on you but it seems like someone said this is mill and this is the only way to play it and that's where your mind is at. I was playing mill for 2 cards a turn, sometimes 4, and winning. So when you say it's wishy washie mesh or whatever. No. Don't knock a deck til you play it.
Jund is considered aggro but it plays like control. Before Bloodbraid it played 12ish creatures.
I think if people were to make a list and tweak it the way yall move an Orb or Crab or play Upnu over Drownyard something could stick.
Something needs to change. Or everyone can keep hoping Mirko gives us something in Ravinca3.
I'm working on UBg version for Decay and Pulse. Maybe Birds for t2 Fraying. Also gives us Nature's Claim.
Or UR for Pyromancer Ascension. Early self mill, Blood Moon, low CC spells, cantrips. But fewer answers so it needs to hit hard and fast. (Bluemoon Ascension with mill)
Thanks for that clearup.
I have some creatures and cast Yahenni's Expertise. Say I have a Golgari Charm in my hand and it's the free spell I wanna cast. Do I still have creatures that can be regenerated by the charm?
I guess if our meta had more burn, mill or 8 rack type decks people would but everything is so creature based or control.
Another idea -
How about Bontu's Last Reckoning? A lot of the top tier decks throw up their hand in the first few turns but not many have ways to fill their hands back up. Missing a turn doesn't seem so bad, especially if you Mesmeric Orb on 2. Eh. They'd maybe mill 3 of lands. 6 before your next turn.
Anyway, a turn before Damnation can be huge.
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Archive Trap
4 Fatal Push
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Cast Dwon
1 Dismember
4 Thought Scour
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Crypt Incursion
Would consider Thoughseize over Inquisition because of Bontu (take out t4-5 threat) but maybe keep it to sb. Loss of life is real.
SB would consist of counterspells, Thoughtseize for combo, another Incusrion, grave hate.
Debating on making a Delver of Secrets,Jace's Phantasm, Weight of Precint Six, Nighthowler for creature threats with mill. T4 attack with Jace's Phantasm bestowed with Nighthowler for the win lol.
Small mill with 4 Elixir of Immortality. everything cantrips.
IDK... something needs to change. Can't wait for that one card to break open Mill. Burning an opponents deck isn't getting it done.