Core 21 has given the archetype a new toy. Vito, Thorn of the Dusk rose. So easy to splash you can use it in a variety of colors It doesn't hit each player, but the card plays so well with any type of life gain shell and the cost to play him is well within limits. It's an unlimited combo like Sanguine bond and Exquisite blood as it is essentially sanguine bond with legs.
I have used him in multiplayer in many Orzhov shells like Extort, vampires, Soul Sisters. He can be run in mono black decks like Devotion, Vampires, Cat oven decks to name a few. There is a fun janky standard lifegain deck with revival // revenge to OTK your opponent.
Of course, he will be used in EdH as a general and in the 99 as well.
So far I have been nothing but impressed with the card. It dies to removal at no benefit, but for a 3 cmc creature with huge upside I think it's a risk I am willing to take.
Time for a necro and an update to the decklist. A lot has changed since I posted seeking inspiration from others. The deck has played many more games and is pretty much refined for my creature based 4-5 player meta. Part of this post is also inspired by Prid3 posting his golgari version of the deck AND I know that bleedin_eyeball had a thread trying to spin a JUND version as well. Here is my aggro Gruul version which cut almost all the higher cmc cards for a more consistent game plan but with a lower ceiling.
Well here I am with another casual deck that I would like some help with. It is Hydra tribal with simic ascendancy as an alt win-con
Most of the Hydra choices seem decent, they all get out of control with an active Kalonian Hydra
I am not sold on Hadana's Climb since trample largely makes flying unnecessary aside from deathtouch
These decks either win because people don't have the removal or they fold to board wipes, of which my meta is probably a little bit lower than average.
Normally I would play Hardened Scales in a counter deck but in many ways it doesn't feel necessary here, since the only card that truly gets crazy with it is Managorger Hydra. Doubling counters each turn doesn't care about doubling plus one more. Maybe I am wrong.
So, I would like to play it in simic colors but am open to splashing a third color (which has to be black right)?
That is a lot of different types of builds, which I think makes the deck quite interesting. Get sick of one style, being hated out by your meta, just build it differently. I think I will start with the combo version as that seems to lend itself to quick games one way or another.
I don't mind Oath of Liliana nor Plaguecrafter. One of my favorite things to do post-Nightmare Shepherd is to cast Plaguecrafter, sac itself, recur it as a 1/1 and then sac itself again. Aka 3 mana "each opponent sacs 2 creatures." That might be more of what you're looking for if people are casting Eldrazi and Blightsteel Colossi. Note that even if people don't have creatures to sac they still lose 2 cards which is often back-breaking if you already cast + sac'd a Yarok's Fenlurker with a Nightmare Shepherd in play. Nightmare Shepherd is a ridonkulous Magic card that takes over the game unless its removed.
It used to be considered that Oath of liliana was the best of these types of cards for devotion because it left one black pip behind. With the printing of Nightmare shepherd I believe Plaguecrafter has usurped that role in all builds EXCEPT zombies, where fleshbag marauder still reigns supreme.
I think when you playtest Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath you will find that it isn't going to do what you want it to do consistently. By turn 3/4 you likely have dumped all lands from your hand, thus it will be an expensive explore with incidental life gain attached to it. "it worked well once, so it must be good" applies here. Plus, I feel like the escape mechanic is largely a trap for this deck, only being good, IF the game goes long but largely irrelevant if the deck is doing what it wants to do.
I completely forgot about this card, I like that it has a single W in its color requirements like Blasphemous Act does in red. Coin flip?
Quote from Prid3 »
FWIW I think that Elvish Rejuvenator is strictly better than cards like Explore and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath in this archetype so I'd play $0.10 card over the $43.00 alternative even if I was trying to win. Elvish Rejuvenator is an absolutely insane Magic card in decks that lean on cards like Maze's End or Field of the Dead in order to win. It virtually always ramps "a" land, which is fine, but it also has a 30.0593682% probability of cheating your win condition directly into play. That might not sound amazing on paper but in practice it means that you actively want to be casting this card on turn 3 every game. Play 4 and never look back.
Elvish Rejuvenator has a ton going for it without a doubt and is a better choice in my opinion as well:
1. The land comes from the library (if you don't whiff) and not from your hand, which is important.
2. Unlike Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath it leaves a body to chump block and this deck wants early bodies
3. As Prid3 stated, it can find your wincon
4. Easier mana requirement to cast
An option if you want more wrath effects for your token swarm would be Hour of Reckoning. The card won't save you on turn 4 like Wrath of God but a couple copies for one sided wraths might help you close out games more quickly?
It's the best wrath for token decks
Thanks for replying, no one else seems remotely interested in this deck, yet for whatever reason, the jank factor is really appealing. I was thinking of playing as a control deck early and then going on the offense, so I need to add more sweepers. Staying in Temur colors, adding Blasphemous Act would appear to a good additional sweeper to play. Surely sweeping the board a couple of times gets you pretty close to a Maze's End victory?
I could easily play Wrath of God or Damnation but both of those cards require either RR or BB, making them significantly more difficult to cast on curve in a deck that has some quirks in its mana base.
I know this conversation is a couple months old, but I was wondering if I could ask when each of you started playing the game? Like what was the current set when you started? Just curious how it ties in with some of what you all have said.
BTW. OUAT. Easy. We banned it.
We don't ban cards in my meta, instead we combine both the Legacy and Vintage ban/restricted lists with our own interpretation.... YMMV
A card like Sol Ring is banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage, therefore we allow only a single copy per deck.
However a restricted card like Monastery Mentor in Vintage and legal in other formats is fine as a playset.
Since we only play 60 card FFA and our meta is creature based, this has turned out to be the "best" way to allow people to deck build and enjoy their cards.
If we were dueling and following format restrictions, we would just choose either Vintage or Legacy but obviously not both
Gates in standard spawned quite a few iterations in the last year. Is this a deck that ports over to multiplayer with any ease? I realize you can try and win off I Win or Zombie Overrun but is the archetype now able to truly challenge for games?
If I want to beatdown, cards like Gatebreaker Ram and Gate Colossus are worth entertaining, although I feel the beatdown path could be almost ANY good creatures for that matter.
My meta is four players, it's not cutthroat (as in turn 1-2 combo), but at the same time, every deck can absolutely take control and just win games if left unmolested. We follow Vintage B&R list for the most part but any card can be played as a playset if it's legally a playset in ANY SANCTIONED format (example, 4 sol rings need not apply)
What does the community have to say about the Gates archetype and what sort of decks could you envision playing?
That being said, all the mulligans in the world aren't always able to overcome variance and multiple opponents.
What does bother me is when both Green players at the table open with turn 0 OuAT, turn 1 Elf, turn 2 three drop almost every single game. And I'm absolutely including myself in there so this isn't a "screw everyone else" complaint. I don't enjoy the fact that I have to build my decks that way but I'm still going to do it if it's optimal. When multiple people are making the exact same openers game after game it no longer feels like you're playing unique games of Magic. Rather, it feels like you're stuck playing the exact same game. That's what really bothers me about the free MP mulligan, the London mulligan and OuaT combined.
I actually find this interesting. You often propose green decks that are x4 Primeval Titan and x4 Sylvain Primordial as finishers. I assume when you do this it is because in the majority of your brews these are the optimal cards for those CMC costs unless another niche card is needed (like Avenger of Zendikar or Craterhoof behemoth in token decks). Realistically, if you want to play the optimal build each and every time, it is relatively few cards that make the cut. The only difference now as I see it, is you have to find 4 slots for Once upon a timein the majority of green decks because the card has become the defacto go to in the early game.
It is not lost on me or anyone else around here that you almost always showcase alternative options for those who have deck building restrictions, whether because of financial or playgroup rules. This is much appreciated. To go back to my point I made in a previous post, I think this is why some people like to build different types of decks, think Elves, Devotion, midrange stompy, ramp etc, so they can play different cards in those decks and not have to play the same cards over and over again.
I have friends who build like you, pure brewers and just take decks apart and move cards around. They love it and look to play optimal builds which frequently include the same cards with few variations. I have other friends who build a deck, tweak it if it under performs, if a new card released obsoletes a current one, or if a new card enhances a strategy.
I have used him in multiplayer in many Orzhov shells like Extort, vampires, Soul Sisters. He can be run in mono black decks like Devotion, Vampires, Cat oven decks to name a few. There is a fun janky standard lifegain deck with revival // revenge to OTK your opponent.
Of course, he will be used in EdH as a general and in the 99 as well.
So far I have been nothing but impressed with the card. It dies to removal at no benefit, but for a 3 cmc creature with huge upside I think it's a risk I am willing to take.
How has your testing gone?
10x Mountain
4x Cinder Glade
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Stomping Ground
1x Yavimaya Hollow
4x Steel leaf Champion
4x Bonecrusher Giant
4x Rekindling Phoenix
2x God-Eternal Rhonas
4x Ilharg, the Raze-Boar
4x Ghalta, Primal Hunger
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
4x Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
2x Rhythm of the wild
4x The Great Henge
Most of the Hydra choices seem decent, they all get out of control with an active Kalonian Hydra
I am not sold on Hadana's Climb since trample largely makes flying unnecessary aside from deathtouch
These decks either win because people don't have the removal or they fold to board wipes, of which my meta is probably a little bit lower than average.
Normally I would play Hardened Scales in a counter deck but in many ways it doesn't feel necessary here, since the only card that truly gets crazy with it is Managorger Hydra. Doubling counters each turn doesn't care about doubling plus one more. Maybe I am wrong.
So, I would like to play it in simic colors but am open to splashing a third color (which has to be black right)?
4x Breeding Pool
12x Forest
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Temple of Mystery
Creatures (26)
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Hydroid Krasis
4x Primordial Hydra
2x Steelbane Hydra
4x Voracious Hydra
4x Managorger Hydra
4x Kalonian Hydra
3x Bred for the Hunt
2x Hadana's Climb
4x Inspiring Call
3x Simic Ascendancy
2x The Great Henge
It might be too much with both Hour of Promise and PrimeTime
4x Arboreal Grazer
4x Elvish Rejuvenator
4x Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
4x Primeval Titan
4x Explore
4x Guild Summit
2x Gates Ablaze
2x Deafening Clarion
4x Circuitous Route
2x Hour of Promise
20x Guildgates
4x Field of the dead
2x Maze's End
1x Gateway Plaza
It used to be considered that Oath of liliana was the best of these types of cards for devotion because it left one black pip behind. With the printing of Nightmare shepherd I believe Plaguecrafter has usurped that role in all builds EXCEPT zombies, where fleshbag marauder still reigns supreme.
I think when you playtest Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath you will find that it isn't going to do what you want it to do consistently. By turn 3/4 you likely have dumped all lands from your hand, thus it will be an expensive explore with incidental life gain attached to it. "it worked well once, so it must be good" applies here. Plus, I feel like the escape mechanic is largely a trap for this deck, only being good, IF the game goes long but largely irrelevant if the deck is doing what it wants to do.
I completely forgot about this card, I like that it has a single W in its color requirements like Blasphemous Act does in red. Coin flip?
Elvish Rejuvenator has a ton going for it without a doubt and is a better choice in my opinion as well:
1. The land comes from the library (if you don't whiff) and not from your hand, which is important.
2. Unlike Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath it leaves a body to chump block and this deck wants early bodies
3. As Prid3 stated, it can find your wincon
4. Easier mana requirement to cast
It's the best wrath for token decks
I could easily play Wrath of God or Damnation but both of those cards require either RR or BB, making them significantly more difficult to cast on curve in a deck that has some quirks in its mana base.
We don't ban cards in my meta, instead we combine both the Legacy and Vintage ban/restricted lists with our own interpretation.... YMMV
A card like Sol Ring is banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage, therefore we allow only a single copy per deck.
However a restricted card like Monastery Mentor in Vintage and legal in other formats is fine as a playset.
Since we only play 60 card FFA and our meta is creature based, this has turned out to be the "best" way to allow people to deck build and enjoy their cards.
If we were dueling and following format restrictions, we would just choose either Vintage or Legacy but obviously not both
I started playing in Lorwyn Block
When I searched Maze's End I found 3 relevant threads that were all 5+ years old. Does Gates Ablaze, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, Primeval Titan Hour of Promise Gatebreaker Ram Guild Summit Arboreal Grazer Explore and Consecrated Sphinx among others make this deck playable?
I realize that crackling perimeter and Seedborn Muse or prophet of kruphix was a way to damage the table if the card stuck.
I feel like if I want to win via Maze's End it's all about ramp and early defense, if I want to win via Field of the dead it's ramp, a doubling action like Panharmonicon and Scapeshift to swarm
If I want to beatdown, cards like Gatebreaker Ram and Gate Colossus are worth entertaining, although I feel the beatdown path could be almost ANY good creatures for that matter.
My meta is four players, it's not cutthroat (as in turn 1-2 combo), but at the same time, every deck can absolutely take control and just win games if left unmolested. We follow Vintage B&R list for the most part but any card can be played as a playset if it's legally a playset in ANY SANCTIONED format (example, 4 sol rings need not apply)
What does the community have to say about the Gates archetype and what sort of decks could you envision playing?
I actually find this interesting. You often propose green decks that are x4 Primeval Titan and x4 Sylvain Primordial as finishers. I assume when you do this it is because in the majority of your brews these are the optimal cards for those CMC costs unless another niche card is needed (like Avenger of Zendikar or Craterhoof behemoth in token decks). Realistically, if you want to play the optimal build each and every time, it is relatively few cards that make the cut. The only difference now as I see it, is you have to find 4 slots for Once upon a timein the majority of green decks because the card has become the defacto go to in the early game.
It is not lost on me or anyone else around here that you almost always showcase alternative options for those who have deck building restrictions, whether because of financial or playgroup rules. This is much appreciated. To go back to my point I made in a previous post, I think this is why some people like to build different types of decks, think Elves, Devotion, midrange stompy, ramp etc, so they can play different cards in those decks and not have to play the same cards over and over again.
I have friends who build like you, pure brewers and just take decks apart and move cards around. They love it and look to play optimal builds which frequently include the same cards with few variations. I have other friends who build a deck, tweak it if it under performs, if a new card released obsoletes a current one, or if a new card enhances a strategy.