I guess what I want is a balanced envirnoment with high level cards in the mix, like if my group wants sol ring and mana crypt, what other cards would it take to balance out the environment, and if it cant be without going full powered, what needs to be avoided if not including these rocks? Does mind twist become viable if rocks arent there?
Balanced is my ultimate goal, which is kind of why I was wanting to find that line between cards that go far and above the cards that sit mostly eye to eye with each other. My group has been interested in finding more powerful plays tho, which is why ive been ramping up (literally) on certain cards like mana rocks or higher tiered spells.
Personally I only think sol ring creates non games if a player doesnt have adequate ways of dealing with what gets cast ahead of schedule/the rock itself. Is Sol Ring amd mind twist on a different tier than the rest of typical cube cards? What else would sit at their same level of power?
I guess that makes the most sense. I had noticed that there seemed to be several lines drawn in the sand involving this issue, so I was kind of at a loss for what actually qualified as "too much", and I guess that knowing what your group is willing/wanting to put up with is kind of where that line should be at. I agree with the mind twist comment tho, that it does create non game situations, especially when compared to things like channel and tinker which have more than enough answers to balance out their impact.
Hello all, this is my first attempt to ever make a thread, and my question isn't even that unique
We all know that cards like sol ring, Library of Alexandria, and the name sake division between power and un-powered cube lists, "the power 9", are generally excluded from the un-powered cuber lists. But how damaging are they to the un-powered environment? Is there a true ceiling? My question is: What are truly considered powered cards? what cards are so far above that they should only be included in one's cube so long as each other piece of "powered" card is there to balance it out?
I've seen some debate in forums (here on MTGSalvation and on other sites) over cards like grim monolith, True-name nemesis, and just a few choice others still see exclusion from lists, but personally I feel like those exclusions are based on a group's chemistry rather than for the health of a cube. I also see "I wouldn't add sol ring in just by itself in an un-powered cube", and I could say that I agree with that, but I wonder how many other high tiered cards would be required to run in your cube so that it became okay? I've seen some people mention that there will always be a top tier to an individual cube, and that any exclusion based on a perceived power level isn't the correct reason to ban card X or Y (If you remove the top tier of a pyramid, there is a new top tier to that pyramid) so why ban any if it doesn't technically matter? My group has slowly warped itself around that thought, and at this point price is the only thing "banning" certain cards from my list. (Sure, I know proxies are a thing, but I'm vain and I want that top shelf booze.)
It was even recently requested that I add in mana crypt and mana vault, but I'm worried that this falls into the "whoops- he got the rock" camp of problems. But how bad is this problem? Is there a number of cards that can be added in to balance out these cards, in a way that powered cubes do by giving everyone that chance to have fast mana, or is it a trap to think mana rocks faster than grim monolith are a good idea? My list already includes some questionable cards, such as Channel, Mind Twist, and Tinker, and my list has been called "pretty much powered" in it's current state. I also know that ultimately, its to each its own about how an individual cube runs and how it's group plays it, but is there a true definitely list of "powered cube only" cards?
I wasnt sure if it was mentioned yet, but I noticed that you mentioned 1/1 tokens could trade with x/3s in the review over Judith, the scourge Diva, but her triggered ability only works off of nontoken creatures. I dont know if maybe im just missing something obvious about it, but I thought I might bring it up :0
Otherwise, I think this is a great list, and I look forward to future "Top 20 of ~" lists!
I really appreciate what youve done here for the community. I hope you are doing well with your life stuff, thank you for the efforts you put into this project
Could you imagine casting this at x=6 and casting an instant speed wildfire while simultaneously being able to add an additional 6 damage to their face or biggest dude? I hate being in that aituation where the opponent cheats out some huge fatty right before I find my wildfire/burning
Johnny-ing aside, I feel like I agree that this card will only be interesting for big red decks, and likely be too slow for more typical red decks, especially poor for aggro
A couple people in my group are convinced that Oath of Druids is near unplayable without including Forbidden orchard, but I feel like Forbidden Orchard isn't all that great or necessary to make it work. I've even demonstrated that the deck functions well by drafting it, but I'm just told that "You're the cube manager and just know how to force it" or "The stars just aligned for you that draft".
It's weirdly opposing
If you don't mind me asking, do you think I should just add forbidden orchard to appease them, or do you have any suggestions on how to convince them otherwise, or should I just drop it since I'm the only one willing to draft it? I think it's probably my favorite deck to draft in the cube, but I'm having a hard time getting my drafters to even consider it. Thank you!
Has anyone gotten any in game testing with this card yet? My group runs relic seeker, but we have a few interested in trying out vraska, golgari queen.
Another warrior and new support for green aggro! Our zoo decks have been turning up as naya warrior tribal thanks to Najeela, the Blade-Blossom, so this will slot right in for us
This has been a spicy set for a lot of spots I was not expecting
The only thing i dont like about it is that i cant tutor it with recruiter of the guard. But otherwise, im a huge fan of this card. Wake hasn't been showing up in decks as often, and i feel that the last clause is more relevant than it appears
My group also adores tokens, so itll fit right in for us
I know it was already mentioned, but I think my favorite part is being able to tap a white creature and get around the colored portion of the cost in case you are limited on white mana sources.
Not sure if thats enough to have it make the cut, but that's nice flexibility to be considered. I could see swapping out banishing light for it since white does have a decent amount of white tokens producing spells/permanents running around cubes these days.
Maybe it was designed to work with that new "truefire captain"(name pending translation), or Firesong and Sunspeaker for standard. That would be a decent chunk of damage and life gain.
But in cube there's less oppurtunity to abuse its "both" ability, so its probably just a slightly harder to cast 3 drop wipe for a color pair that has better options already.
Edit-
Scratch that, it represents a ton of life gain, and not so much damage with firesong and sunspeaker. I forgot that the lifegain is coming from the creatures, and not the spell.
She can buff that new legion warboss so that his mentor trigger can target her as well
In standard, i could see this card being the only reason mentor does anything for that matter. But in cube, i feel like she'll be a fun creature that we will definitely be trying out.
Personally I only think sol ring creates non games if a player doesnt have adequate ways of dealing with what gets cast ahead of schedule/the rock itself. Is Sol Ring amd mind twist on a different tier than the rest of typical cube cards? What else would sit at their same level of power?
We all know that cards like sol ring, Library of Alexandria, and the name sake division between power and un-powered cube lists, "the power 9", are generally excluded from the un-powered cuber lists. But how damaging are they to the un-powered environment? Is there a true ceiling? My question is: What are truly considered powered cards? what cards are so far above that they should only be included in one's cube so long as each other piece of "powered" card is there to balance it out?
I've seen some debate in forums (here on MTGSalvation and on other sites) over cards like grim monolith, True-name nemesis, and just a few choice others still see exclusion from lists, but personally I feel like those exclusions are based on a group's chemistry rather than for the health of a cube. I also see "I wouldn't add sol ring in just by itself in an un-powered cube", and I could say that I agree with that, but I wonder how many other high tiered cards would be required to run in your cube so that it became okay? I've seen some people mention that there will always be a top tier to an individual cube, and that any exclusion based on a perceived power level isn't the correct reason to ban card X or Y (If you remove the top tier of a pyramid, there is a new top tier to that pyramid) so why ban any if it doesn't technically matter? My group has slowly warped itself around that thought, and at this point price is the only thing "banning" certain cards from my list. (Sure, I know proxies are a thing, but I'm vain and I want that top shelf booze.)
It was even recently requested that I add in mana crypt and mana vault, but I'm worried that this falls into the "whoops- he got the rock" camp of problems. But how bad is this problem? Is there a number of cards that can be added in to balance out these cards, in a way that powered cubes do by giving everyone that chance to have fast mana, or is it a trap to think mana rocks faster than grim monolith are a good idea? My list already includes some questionable cards, such as Channel, Mind Twist, and Tinker, and my list has been called "pretty much powered" in it's current state. I also know that ultimately, its to each its own about how an individual cube runs and how it's group plays it, but is there a true definitely list of "powered cube only" cards?
Otherwise, I think this is a great list, and I look forward to future "Top 20 of ~" lists!
Johnny-ing aside, I feel like I agree that this card will only be interesting for big red decks, and likely be too slow for more typical red decks, especially poor for aggro
It's weirdly opposing
If you don't mind me asking, do you think I should just add forbidden orchard to appease them, or do you have any suggestions on how to convince them otherwise, or should I just drop it since I'm the only one willing to draft it? I think it's probably my favorite deck to draft in the cube, but I'm having a hard time getting my drafters to even consider it. Thank you!
This has been a spicy set for a lot of spots I was not expecting
My group also adores tokens, so itll fit right in for us
Not sure if thats enough to have it make the cut, but that's nice flexibility to be considered. I could see swapping out banishing light for it since white does have a decent amount of white tokens producing spells/permanents running around cubes these days.
But in cube there's less oppurtunity to abuse its "both" ability, so its probably just a slightly harder to cast 3 drop wipe for a color pair that has better options already.
Edit-
Scratch that, it represents a ton of life gain, and not so much damage with firesong and sunspeaker. I forgot that the lifegain is coming from the creatures, and not the spell.
In standard, i could see this card being the only reason mentor does anything for that matter. But in cube, i feel like she'll be a fun creature that we will definitely be trying out.