I think you should just re-look at all the shadow/sheep stuff you're posting, 'cause you post stuff and say "this shows they're unaligned" and I look at it and it makes perfect sense for buddies, mostly the total lack of progression from sheep on shadow looking like a bus, and shadow probably being on a team with sheep/nancy and being like "wtf **** this *****"
I also think you're upset at me for the hunger lynch yesterday, but think of it this way: You think sheep is town, right? So did I, yesterday. So with sheep as town, I thought the team was hunger/shadow. Because it couldn't be KJ or Lissa, and my team said it wasn't you. So surely you don't disagree with the reasons for me thinking hunger was scum. Who else would I vote for? It made more sense to vote for hunger over shadow, because shadow didn't seem like he was partners with sheep. Yes, I know now that he is, but at the time.
ok i take it back, maybe sheep really did just see you say "i found sheep's breadcrumb" and was just like "oh yeah i totally did breadcrumb you found it gj"
actually they would have had a higher chance of lynching you if they left lissa alive, since she said she'd suspect you/shadow before suspecting sheep (or myself i guess), but even then, it would've been shadow today, so you could only get lynched that way at final 3. i don't think that's why lissa died, i think they were just trying to avoid doc save, which they did. (which again, why did you say a sheep/shadow team wouldn't kill lissa)
honestly, if he says he crumbed it, he probably did?
unless he actually saw you say "i saw where sheep crumbed" and thought that meant it was okay to be like "oh yeah i totally did, i just forget where" which even i find hard to believe (yes i know earlier i was like "pfft lol he's making it up" but that doesn't make sense)
they were probably planning this for a while. i mean, what else would their plan be? shadow was obviously going down, they weren't gonna be able to get a lynch on you with me defending you, (or on lissa), the most they could hope for is a lynch on me, so they probably just thought, "claim doc and just pray that there either a) isn't one or b) the person who counters looks worse for it" or were hoping to rely on those of us who were trusting sheep (which both of us did)
i'll vote shadow at any time, i just don't wanna rush to end the day 'cause i don't want it to look like i'm trying to end it so that one of you can die and i have less people to convince or anything. so i'll vote after you guys do.
also remember shadow can self-vote so if you put him at 2 he'll probably self-hammer just to end the discussion, if he's still following.
I think, speaking generally (and I know I'm biased), it's very often the case that a townie's progression on a scum will be a lot more confused and wavering, whereas a scum on scum will be a lot more straightforward. That's because townies have real thoughts, paranoid and constantly shifting, and scum find that hard to fake. My read on shadow throughout the game was like... "He's super town, I have to defend him -> I think he's town still, here's why -> Okay, maybe he's not actually town, put him in PoE -> Okay *****, Lissa is town, Shadow is the scum - > Ugh okay fine maybe he isn't but I'm still paranoid -> Okay no he's definitely scum -> But **** hunger is logically the better lynch -> Okay NOW Shadow is definitely scum" and that's putting it concisely. Whereas Sheep's is... what "okay shadow is scummy" "yeah shadow is my top suspect" "##vote shadow" and... that's it. I know I'm biased, and I'm aware that it can also look like I'M the scum who was defending shadow, or calling him scum but having someone else to vote first, but... it's really just that I was totally bamboozled. Sheep wasn't, sheep just... settled on a read for no real reason and stuck to it. That's pretty typical bussing scenario. It's hard for scum on scum to fake actual paranoia.
I also think that shadow must've known he was going down yesterday, it really seemed like he was gonna be the lynch day 3, and if not, then day 4, so it makes sense that he'd tell sheep "just vote me". What other chance did they have to win? Sheep would go down 100% if shadow got lynched with sheep not voting him.
If I lose here because I had a wrong read on Shadow and defended him (and didn't vote him yesterday), then that's fair, it can look like scumbuddies. But I also think it's kind of like... I was wrong, and that sucks, but I don't want to be punished for being wrong, because part of being a good townie means putting yourself out there and risking being wrong when you make a big case. I never thought the vote yesterday would be game-deciding because I thought even if we were somehow wrong about Hunger (we were), we'd lynch Shadow and sheep and win anyway. I apologize for it, in retrospect there was no reason for me to really clear the shadow/sheep stuff, but I still don't even think it was a bad choice. Shadow was just craftier than I thought, and I gave sheep too much credit for ***** that I shouldn't have.
Also Dels. You've defended shadow with lots of words more than once.
That was just the first time, and it was basically your first post of any substance.
So I'll ask. Why did you feel shadow needed that post?
I already admitted that I defended shadow at first... Never claimed I didn't. I thought he was town at the start of the game, and then after your claim, I dropped that townread and had him in PoE, after which I didn't defend him anymore.
Shadow got a post because everyone got a post. I wrote posts about almost every player in the game. The reason was because I was catching up on an entire day and wanted to make my thoughts on every player clear. The only people I didn't post anything about were Lissa and sheep, because I didn't have anything relevant to say about either of them. (And Vaimes, but I had a post planned, I just didn't bother after my team convinced me he was town. I still have the notes, I can show you if you want)
Also, he was still a suspect at the time so it was absolutely relevant. It was just wrong, which is fine, I'm going to make wrong cases sometimes, it didn't take me long to admit that it didn't hold up and that I couldn't defend Shadow anymore.
and shadow just took it and ran with it "oh, dels townreads me? ok, great, no need to ruin that by continuing to suspect him, townread accepted" and he just townread me in return
I'm interpreting it as the event giving him an excuse to keep you out of the PoE.
but... that's not the correct interpretation. it looks like he was essentially trying to "pocket" me, or rather, just placate me.
my team was talking about this, they basically said, just because shadow played a *****ty scum game, don't underestimate that he's still clever and knows how to cover himself. they said it's similar to "bare bones mafia" which you apparently played in, where shadow was scum and a townie (silver) apparently townread him in the same way and he took advantage of it to make it look like they were buddies. i don't know anything about it, but essentially what they're saying is, don't assume stuff like "oh shadow wouldn't treat his buddies" like that, apparently he is good as scum at knowing how things will be perceived and he plays around it. i agree with this, i think the way shadow went for the sheep bus the other day was really clever and totally threw me off. i'm not sure if shadow was trying to make me look like his buddy, but i do think his reaction to my entrance shows he was trying to stay on my good side.
it IS possible that he tried to fight with me today and called me guaranteed scum, while saying "oh and it's sheep too" to make it look like we were buddies and he was doing a distancing thing. I didn't think he actually thought he could get me lynched, since I figured he was the obvious lynch today, but who knows.
also i'm not sure what you mean with the readslist. it seems like he was doing the thing that gemma said, which is place buddies near the bottom but "oh but rhand is lower than them!"
I don't think he put both of his buddies at the bottom of his list.
huh? rhand was at the bottom, that's the point. he put them near the bottom but always had someone else to vote first.
also, sheep and nancy aren't exactly the kind of buddies you'd want to put high up if there's no good reason for it. i don't imagine a scum shadow would want to tie himself to a strong townread on either of them, knowing they probably wouldn't be able to survive the game. this was day 2, right? sheep was pretty townread day 1 but it started to turn around at that point i think.
I also don't think sheep would pay so little attention to the game that he wouldn't be at least somewhat aware that KJ is a town PR.
"My only scumreads are my partner and the Vig" as a purposeful derpclear attempt after all the townclears on him Day 1 is ???
i mean, it's a fact that sheep was paying so little attention either way, isn't it? i said this yesterday, but night 2 was a no action night so i think sheep and shadow probably didn't talk. if there was actions, they'd have to have said "ok so KJ is the vig, should we shoot him", but they didn't have to. I thought the derp was more evidence of sheep being town too, but that was naive. also not sure what you mean by "all the townclears on him day 1". that was on day 3 when sheep was solidly in the PoE, wasn't it?
also i'm not sure what you mean with the readslist. it seems like he was doing the thing that gemma said, which is place buddies near the bottom but "oh but rhand is lower than them!"
i was actually thinking about shadow's read on me early day 2 the other day
i think what happened is i came in and townread shadow, despite reg and shadow being against each other most of day 1
and shadow just took it and ran with it "oh, dels townreads me? ok, great, no need to ruin that by continuing to suspect him, townread accepted" and he just townread me in return
in retrospect, it's pretty obvious that he was happy with the townread and didn't wanna do anything to disturb it. he absolutely should have been more paranoid.
but... I don't see what you're saying? why would shadow think of it as a pocket attempt? shadow is scum. the scenario you're describing would be if he was town, he'd have to worry if it's a pocket or not. he didn't because he knew it wasn't.
I think you should just re-look at all the shadow/sheep stuff you're posting, 'cause you post stuff and say "this shows they're unaligned" and I look at it and it makes perfect sense for buddies, mostly the total lack of progression from sheep on shadow looking like a bus, and shadow probably being on a team with sheep/nancy and being like "wtf **** this *****"
I also think you're upset at me for the hunger lynch yesterday, but think of it this way: You think sheep is town, right? So did I, yesterday. So with sheep as town, I thought the team was hunger/shadow. Because it couldn't be KJ or Lissa, and my team said it wasn't you. So surely you don't disagree with the reasons for me thinking hunger was scum. Who else would I vote for? It made more sense to vote for hunger over shadow, because shadow didn't seem like he was partners with sheep. Yes, I know now that he is, but at the time.
unless he actually saw you say "i saw where sheep crumbed" and thought that meant it was okay to be like "oh yeah i totally did, i just forget where" which even i find hard to believe (yes i know earlier i was like "pfft lol he's making it up" but that doesn't make sense)
they were probably planning this for a while. i mean, what else would their plan be? shadow was obviously going down, they weren't gonna be able to get a lynch on you with me defending you, (or on lissa), the most they could hope for is a lynch on me, so they probably just thought, "claim doc and just pray that there either a) isn't one or b) the person who counters looks worse for it" or were hoping to rely on those of us who were trusting sheep (which both of us did)
also remember shadow can self-vote so if you put him at 2 he'll probably self-hammer just to end the discussion, if he's still following.
I think, speaking generally (and I know I'm biased), it's very often the case that a townie's progression on a scum will be a lot more confused and wavering, whereas a scum on scum will be a lot more straightforward. That's because townies have real thoughts, paranoid and constantly shifting, and scum find that hard to fake. My read on shadow throughout the game was like... "He's super town, I have to defend him -> I think he's town still, here's why -> Okay, maybe he's not actually town, put him in PoE -> Okay *****, Lissa is town, Shadow is the scum - > Ugh okay fine maybe he isn't but I'm still paranoid -> Okay no he's definitely scum -> But **** hunger is logically the better lynch -> Okay NOW Shadow is definitely scum" and that's putting it concisely. Whereas Sheep's is... what "okay shadow is scummy" "yeah shadow is my top suspect" "##vote shadow" and... that's it. I know I'm biased, and I'm aware that it can also look like I'M the scum who was defending shadow, or calling him scum but having someone else to vote first, but... it's really just that I was totally bamboozled. Sheep wasn't, sheep just... settled on a read for no real reason and stuck to it. That's pretty typical bussing scenario. It's hard for scum on scum to fake actual paranoia.
I also think that shadow must've known he was going down yesterday, it really seemed like he was gonna be the lynch day 3, and if not, then day 4, so it makes sense that he'd tell sheep "just vote me". What other chance did they have to win? Sheep would go down 100% if shadow got lynched with sheep not voting him.
If I lose here because I had a wrong read on Shadow and defended him (and didn't vote him yesterday), then that's fair, it can look like scumbuddies. But I also think it's kind of like... I was wrong, and that sucks, but I don't want to be punished for being wrong, because part of being a good townie means putting yourself out there and risking being wrong when you make a big case. I never thought the vote yesterday would be game-deciding because I thought even if we were somehow wrong about Hunger (we were), we'd lynch Shadow and sheep and win anyway. I apologize for it, in retrospect there was no reason for me to really clear the shadow/sheep stuff, but I still don't even think it was a bad choice. Shadow was just craftier than I thought, and I gave sheep too much credit for ***** that I shouldn't have.
I already admitted that I defended shadow at first... Never claimed I didn't. I thought he was town at the start of the game, and then after your claim, I dropped that townread and had him in PoE, after which I didn't defend him anymore.
Shadow got a post because everyone got a post. I wrote posts about almost every player in the game. The reason was because I was catching up on an entire day and wanted to make my thoughts on every player clear. The only people I didn't post anything about were Lissa and sheep, because I didn't have anything relevant to say about either of them. (And Vaimes, but I had a post planned, I just didn't bother after my team convinced me he was town. I still have the notes, I can show you if you want)
Also, he was still a suspect at the time so it was absolutely relevant. It was just wrong, which is fine, I'm going to make wrong cases sometimes, it didn't take me long to admit that it didn't hold up and that I couldn't defend Shadow anymore.
but... that's not the correct interpretation. it looks like he was essentially trying to "pocket" me, or rather, just placate me.
my team was talking about this, they basically said, just because shadow played a *****ty scum game, don't underestimate that he's still clever and knows how to cover himself. they said it's similar to "bare bones mafia" which you apparently played in, where shadow was scum and a townie (silver) apparently townread him in the same way and he took advantage of it to make it look like they were buddies. i don't know anything about it, but essentially what they're saying is, don't assume stuff like "oh shadow wouldn't treat his buddies" like that, apparently he is good as scum at knowing how things will be perceived and he plays around it. i agree with this, i think the way shadow went for the sheep bus the other day was really clever and totally threw me off. i'm not sure if shadow was trying to make me look like his buddy, but i do think his reaction to my entrance shows he was trying to stay on my good side.
it IS possible that he tried to fight with me today and called me guaranteed scum, while saying "oh and it's sheep too" to make it look like we were buddies and he was doing a distancing thing. I didn't think he actually thought he could get me lynched, since I figured he was the obvious lynch today, but who knows.
huh? rhand was at the bottom, that's the point. he put them near the bottom but always had someone else to vote first.
also, sheep and nancy aren't exactly the kind of buddies you'd want to put high up if there's no good reason for it. i don't imagine a scum shadow would want to tie himself to a strong townread on either of them, knowing they probably wouldn't be able to survive the game. this was day 2, right? sheep was pretty townread day 1 but it started to turn around at that point i think.
i mean, it's a fact that sheep was paying so little attention either way, isn't it? i said this yesterday, but night 2 was a no action night so i think sheep and shadow probably didn't talk. if there was actions, they'd have to have said "ok so KJ is the vig, should we shoot him", but they didn't have to. I thought the derp was more evidence of sheep being town too, but that was naive. also not sure what you mean by "all the townclears on him day 1". that was on day 3 when sheep was solidly in the PoE, wasn't it?
i was actually thinking about shadow's read on me early day 2 the other day
i think what happened is i came in and townread shadow, despite reg and shadow being against each other most of day 1
and shadow just took it and ran with it "oh, dels townreads me? ok, great, no need to ruin that by continuing to suspect him, townread accepted" and he just townread me in return
in retrospect, it's pretty obvious that he was happy with the townread and didn't wanna do anything to disturb it. he absolutely should have been more paranoid.
but... I don't see what you're saying? why would shadow think of it as a pocket attempt? shadow is scum. the scenario you're describing would be if he was town, he'd have to worry if it's a pocket or not. he didn't because he knew it wasn't.